Great comparison
I would get a divorce...See how easy it is to solve that problem? What exactly are you doing about the problems we were discussing? Whining to strangers on a forum is really changing things
WTF is REALLY going on with the job market?
- Thread starter HKslave
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Great comparison
I would get a divorce...See how easy it is to solve that problem? What exactly are you doing about the problems we were discussing? Whining to strangers on a forum is really changing things
Yawn....
Businesses owners have a duty to their families and stockholders to grow and be profitable. Yes, they try to grow and make wealth.
We can agree on this. We can agree they will do virtually anything to achieve this goal.
******They have no "sworn duty to serve the public".
The Government has a duty to the voters and the citizens to be fiscally sound. But, they violate that duty.
We can agree on this. The government seems to do ANYTHING BUT achieve this goal.
******They DO have a "sworn duty to serve the public".
Further, the government has a lot of people and tools to achieve their goals. Jeff Bezons, cannot "send the FBI to do a raid on the White House.
None of these Billionaires have a standing army with tanks and planes to seize swaths of land and assets.
We can agree there is a lot of cronyism. However, only ONE side has the power to prevent it; only one side has the forces to end it.
Only one side has the legal obligation to prevent it. (hint: not the businesses).
Let me say this a different way. Think of the Government as Parents who have a 5 year old child that weighs 250 pounds. You are blaming the fat child, and not the parents (who can control how much food is given to the child).
You want to blame the child in this case.
I want to blame the parents for shirking/avoiding/violating their duty.
Ultimately, this cycle would end if the government did the duty they are sworn to do. I tend to harshly view people who violate their oaths.
I do not see the "sweetheart contracts" given as being "mostly the fault of businesses". Somebody is buying the fat child cheesecake, and it is not the kid. Yes, the child will "whine" they are hungry, but ultimately, the child will not send a standing army to raid the parent's bank account to get more cheesecake.
You have the expectation that businesses will be less "seeking of money". I just want the government to "stop giving it away".
All of the reasons above are WHY I blame the Government, more than the businesses. I simply want them to stop being dishonest. I mean, that is their "sworn duty" right? And let us be honest. It is NOT just businesses that get showered with cash. That list includes "non-businesses" like foreign governments. Untold billions get showered on them as well. Often family members of the political member somehow get great paying jobs/contracts afterwards.
So yes, I put the blame where it *most* belongs... the Government.
I am not blind, but I suspect you have trouble holding the responsible party *responsible*.
I am trying to figure out if what triggers you is simple jealousy and envy of the businesses which have more than you.
Someone's brain is not fully functioning, because it is mired with petty jealousy. Blame the actual one violating the sworn trust of the public.
But...But...But...our corrupt Government, whose sworn duty is to protect our Constitution and it's People is *owned and operated* by filthy rich Global Oligarchs who *pay* our elected officials to make policies and laws that make *them* rich and the People dependent. We are being fucked shitless by people who already control/possess 90% of the Wealth. Our Government is Owned and Operated by a Global Oligarchy. And they want more and they want it from you and I. So they have purchased your Government Officials like a bunch of whores.
VooDoo
VooDoo
We aren’t allowed to talk about effective solutions hereGreat comparison
Companies are reviving an old tactic to retain employees....
Question: Do you frequent "Employee Owned" Businesses ? Do you see a different attitude / work ethic in employees that own stock in the company they work for ?
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/KYHHFKI5UZPVTKQQCF7L6IQYP4.jpg)
'Great Resignation' sees more companies offer equity to staff
Companies in North America and Europe plan to give more employees an equity stake in their businesses to help retain talent amid a pandemic-induced "Great Resignation", a survey showed on Wednesday.
www.reuters.com
Get a job at an Apple store. The one near me is trying to unionize and is already asking $30/hr. We're talking the people that literally just approach you at your appointment time and listen to your issue and then take your phone (full of dick pix) to the back where someone with an actual technical skill fixes it. So... the customer service people. There are nurses that don't even make that $.
Or go to trade school and learn how to weld because... there's money there for sure.
Or go to trade school and learn how to weld because... there's money there for sure.
Been trying to fill a couple of positions for 2 years now....people think they should start at 60-70 a year a year with 0 experience just because they have a piece of paper or they claim to have the experience and then get the job and don't know shit. Then get pissed when you have issues with them taking 4-5 times as long as it should take them to do a project.
Had a 19 year old kid on his first day tell me I was doing it wrong......I have 29 years on job and I am damn good at what I do.
It blows my mind.
Had a 19 year old kid on his first day tell me I was doing it wrong......I have 29 years on job and I am damn good at what I do.
It blows my mind.
The failure is you. Your post tells everything we need to know.
Can't fill a job for 2 years. Why is that? You do not know the market. So either you are such a shitty manager and employer that no one will work for you even above market rates, or you think you deserve to hire someone at a rate YOU want, not the market rate.
This shit is simple Supply and Demand. Its what I do for a living and don't feel bad. Lots of educated and people who think they are smart are just like you. Zero common sense or understanding of basic economics. After I give them a 15 minutes economics education, and give them the reality of the situation, most get it. Some don't and go without.
There are 2 main reasons today that employers can't find workers. They aren't paying market wages and they are not allowing remote work for positions that can be done via remote. That is what it boils down to.
No one gives a fuck how many years you have on the job or what you were paid or what you think. All that matters is the current market rate and what it takes to attract and retain talent.
You would think after almost 30 years as a working adult, people would have figured this out by now, guess not.
Pretty much. If nobody wants to work for what you offer, then you either raise wages or get stuck with bottom of the barrel employees.
Gen Z, and the younger millennials give no fucks how long you have been on a job or what you got paid in 1977. They want to be paid what they believe they’re worth today. That simple. If the job won’t pay, then they won’t work it. I don’t fault them for wanting to be paid enough to have a nice life.
Kind of like 2 generations ago when a person with a high school diploma could work a job for 20 years, get a pension, have a home, car, family, and pay for college.
Add to that, if the job pays well, but they don’t like the personnel or work environment then they’ll also say no and move on.
My hat is off to them, and I hope they ultimately succeed in forcing higher wages for their generations and following generations.
lol....I guess every engineering/surveying company in 3 counties have the same bad management and don't understand how deal with people.
Also think you missed the part of them not being able to do the job. If you hire people and pay them top pay for a position and they can not put product out......then you are the problem.
Been doing just fine up until about 2 years ago....I guess I got stupid along with a bunch of other people.
For the past 20 years I found it necessary to explain to the young kids coming onto the job just how more efficient they would be if they would put that phone away and interject both hands into the equation.
I feel the same way letting people know how much time is wasted on pointless meetings.
Again, You clearly do not understand the market.
Any Engineer out of school from an accredited 4 year school would have to be fucking retarded to take a job starting for less than 70-80K a year. Those are STARTING wages for an engineer.
Most of the journeyman engineers I higher start around $120K and goes up fast, especially if they are also Project managers. And we lose good engineers to companies who pay more more.
Min Wage is $15, you can make the equivalent of $25-30 /hr by not working. Anyone with a "piece of paper" should be starting at 50-60K for trash degrees and more for valuable ones.
That is the market. You either pay for the talent or go without.
who ever said a 4 year degree? You are assuming you know what I am talking about. I am not hiring for a engineer position......
Look at people like rifle primers, and the pay asked for makes more sense. Gnomesayin’?
Its a foreign concept to evaluate people on their output/results instead worthless managers who add zero value to the enterprise watching over cube slaves to make sure they don't reply to a text.
And companies wonder why everyone wants to WFH.
You said a piece of paper, that generally means a 4 year degree in today's world. Sorry your high school diploma or 2 year community college degree impresses no one.
Correct. I read many articles during the height of 2020 about many mid level managers being let go because work from home showed who was actually managing, and who just sucked off of the accomplishments of their team they managed.
However, big business hates work from home because Uncle Sugar hates work from home. Need you paying gas tax, buying chicken fingers, and supporting commercial real estate.
I honestly believe you have hit the mail on the head on this one.
and once again who said I had a 2 year community college degree....You really like putting words in peoples mouth.
Once again if you are hiring someone with 0 experience and paying them whatever that position top pay is.....you are the problem. I am not paying some 18 year old that knows nothin 50-60k, which is top pay in the state I am in for the position I am trying fill, a year that has no experience on the job I am hiring for.
If it’s been open two years, and only unqualified or new people are applying, that means it doesn’t pay enough for the person you want in the job.
50k-60k is like making 25k a year in 1995. That’s a low paying job for a high end professional, ESPECIALLY if that is the top pay bracket. 50-60k a year is top pay? That means no matter how good they are, how much they do, they’re topped at mid level pay.
The labor market has transformed in the last 2 years. I am fighting archaic senior management executives on a daily basis trying to get them to be more flexible with workers. At the end of the day, its going to happen. The market is changing and if they want a warm body working for them, they will have to adapt. Its up to them how much pain and money they want to lose before they get to that point.
The smart companies are taking advantage of the situation:
1. Reduce footprint of commercial space. Save a ton of money on leases.
2. Reduce IT footprint. Everyone VPN so don't need as many machines, printers, phone systems,ect since everything is cloud/vpn based.
3. Reduce wages. Allowing people to live in low cost of living areas, you can get them for lower wages and keep their morale high because they can live like kings realities to rest of area. People will also take less money to not have to sit in traffic, wear business cloths and come to office.
4. Less workers comp issues. Less liability having someone on site getting injured.
5. COOP events. If something really bad happens, it doesn't wipe out half of your workforce in one location.
6. When you do fire someone, less risk of a security event.
7. Recognize that competitors are slow to adapt so even if it doesn't directly save money, it will be a competitive advantage to attract and retain talent.
That list could go past 100 reasons.
Reasons not to allow work from home:
1. Bad managers get revealed and it highlights their lack of value to enterprise.
Are you retarded?
You said piece of paper, what the fuck are you talking about then? Charmin? Cottenelle?
No wonder you cant find anyone, you can barley communicate to another human and do not understand basic economics.
You can make the equivelent of $50K a year sitting home jerking off all day and playing video games. And you wonder why no one wants to work your shitty job at slave wages.
Furthermore, What you THINK is top pay and what the market says is top pay is not the same. YOU DO NOT DETERMINE MARKET WAGES.
Gerrys can't retire out of the system soon enough.
Yes, 50-60k a year for a entry level draftsman for Land Surveying is top pay at least in South Carolina. Now does that mean that they can not move up the chain...by no means.
I know what the market is buddy for what I do buddy.
CAD Drafter salary in United States
The average salary for a CAD Drafter is $24.70 per hour in United States. Learn about salaries, benefits, salary satisfaction and where you could earn the most.
www.indeed.com
Here you go...but hell I still don't know what I am talking about
How is it top pay when you cannot find anyone to work those jobs? You don't even understand basic economics.
You know whats funny, I pay about $160K a year for a dozen subscriptions to every major pricing and hiring service, along with some employment consultants. You know what they all have in common?
The price they tell me something should be and the price it takes to hire a qualified candidate, are rarely close. Rearward looking data is not weighed current enough for the market, as fast as it has moved the last few years. By the time data is compiled and analyzed, its already obsolete.
Fast food hires people at $20/hr yet you expect to hire a skilled draftsman at poverty wages below what someone can make sitting home and not working.
Keep telling us you know the market..............only in your head.
You know whats funny, I pay about $160K a year for a dozen subscriptions to every major pricing and hiring service, along with some employment consultants. You know what they all have in common?
The price they tell me something should be and the price it takes to hire a qualified candidate, are rarely close. Rearward looking data is not weighed current enough for the market, as fast as it has moved the last few years. By the time data is compiled and analyzed, its already obsolete.
Fast food hires people at $20/hr yet you expect to hire a skilled draftsman at poverty wages below what someone can make sitting home and not working.
Keep telling us you know the market..............only in your head.
This is where you are failing to read what I am saying. These are not skilled people. They have 0 experience. Some are straight out of high school and some do have a 2 year degree. I don't know how to explain this any different.
Another thing I saw happen during my 49+ years in the job market and as a business owner - lots of necessary jobs have paid dog shit money for years and had shit hours and over the decades *NO ONE* told their kids "Hey, go to school and learn to be a Service Technician or XYZ!" Now 25 years later, we simply do not have people who will/want to do these jobs. No matter how much money you offer or what perks are there, there simply are no or very few qualified people to do some of/a lot of these jobs.
Some of it is because we destroyed the Unions (they destroyed themselves) and the training/apprentice/ Master situation. My Dad served a 4 year apprenticeship as a Machinist and became a Journeyman, and then a Master, and then a Foreman. All as a paid employee - they brought him in and made him a valuable asset. Back in the early 80's I ran a TV/Consumer Repair Shop and in 1981 if we ran an add looking for a Technician we had to do it to a PO box because there were hundreds of qualified techs/applicants looking for a job. They would literally bombard us with applications.
By 1996, if I ran an ad looking for a Tech we'd be lucky to get 1 guy to apply and they were rarely qualified/experienced. Some where along the line we stopped encouraging people to learn certain trades or do certain jobs. And now, there is no one to do them....no matter what it pays, there is no one applying. We need to go back to treating coworkers as team members and teaching/nurturing each other to earn our livings. The "Fuck You, A Monkey can do your job and everyone is expendable" bullshit is gone now. We need to build people to do these jobs, not treat them like shit because they are not yet trained and experienced.
The other issue is that cost of living has far exceeded the amount of income people earn in many places. Over the 35 years I have owned my home (purchased by a middle class working Dude and his Wife) the value of the house has increased over 4X. I paid $31K for this modest home in a Family neighborhood in 1986 - base wage was $10 and hour. The house next door to me sold last Summer for $170K - over 5X what the guy paid for it. Other neighbors are all chuffed up about what our shit is now worth *but* the problem is *No One* who could/would buy my house is making $40-$50 base wage. We are living in a World that is now so expensive for food, cars, homes, insurance, etc that young folks entering the work world gotta be making $50K+ a year to keep fed. They ain't gonna take shit/low pay entry level jobs...that world has passed.
VooDoo
Some of it is because we destroyed the Unions (they destroyed themselves) and the training/apprentice/ Master situation. My Dad served a 4 year apprenticeship as a Machinist and became a Journeyman, and then a Master, and then a Foreman. All as a paid employee - they brought him in and made him a valuable asset. Back in the early 80's I ran a TV/Consumer Repair Shop and in 1981 if we ran an add looking for a Technician we had to do it to a PO box because there were hundreds of qualified techs/applicants looking for a job. They would literally bombard us with applications.
By 1996, if I ran an ad looking for a Tech we'd be lucky to get 1 guy to apply and they were rarely qualified/experienced. Some where along the line we stopped encouraging people to learn certain trades or do certain jobs. And now, there is no one to do them....no matter what it pays, there is no one applying. We need to go back to treating coworkers as team members and teaching/nurturing each other to earn our livings. The "Fuck You, A Monkey can do your job and everyone is expendable" bullshit is gone now. We need to build people to do these jobs, not treat them like shit because they are not yet trained and experienced.
The other issue is that cost of living has far exceeded the amount of income people earn in many places. Over the 35 years I have owned my home (purchased by a middle class working Dude and his Wife) the value of the house has increased over 4X. I paid $31K for this modest home in a Family neighborhood in 1986 - base wage was $10 and hour. The house next door to me sold last Summer for $170K - over 5X what the guy paid for it. Other neighbors are all chuffed up about what our shit is now worth *but* the problem is *No One* who could/would buy my house is making $40-$50 base wage. We are living in a World that is now so expensive for food, cars, homes, insurance, etc that young folks entering the work world gotta be making $50K+ a year to keep fed. They ain't gonna take shit/low pay entry level jobs...that world has passed.
VooDoo
FF joints may indeed pay $20/hr in some areas, but around here its more like half that.
Yeah our minimum wage is still $7.25hr here, but I do not know my market where I live because I will not pay some kid out of high school 100k
I know, Im in S.C. too.
Do i understand correctly you're a land surveyor?
Where you located?
No what your dense ass does not understand is you are paying wages that attract people with 0 experience. I swear its like talking to a brick fucking wall, no wonder you can't find anyone.
Maybe, just Maybe, you are the problem.
Supply and demand is supply and demand no matter the market. The scale can slide based on locality but the fundamentals do not change,
I am looking for 0 experience people though. Read my very first post again, people with 0 experience think they should be making 60-70k a year.
Great comparison
Nah, make them pay for the sex
Get a side chick that’s a little more in check
Profit.
In some markets, some job skills are simply no longer represented....no one is applying because there is literally no one available with those skills/experience. I came from the Audio Visual Integration Field and Rage Quit in January. They have been unable to find Installers (hard work - climbing ladders, hauling cable, busting ass drilling and climbing etc.) so they decided that their 66 YO Field Service Specialist/Engineering Technician was now going to cover as Installers Helper and I found myself working in New Construction Sites pulling wire and climbing ladders instead of maintaining electronics an Systems already installed. I warned 'em - they treated me like an "expendable" and I quit. I literally emptied my truck and had my Wife pick me up. Fuck you - I quit. They are now not only having to beg for installers (that do not exist) their Service Revenue and ability to maintain their clients systems is now destroyed - because they thought everyone is expendable. Everyone can be replaced. Everyone is a working stiff/bitch.
Not anymore. Shit is changing fast and it's an employee's market - if you want a job done you'll need to train someone with the correct interests, aptitude, and experience and make a new employee. Or just keep that same 1990's attitude that everyone is "lucky to have a job" and watch yer really good people leave with no one t o fill the jobs.
I'm still convinced that this lack of workers is directly tied to early retirement - literally millions of folks like me went thru this Covid Bullshit Job market and just folded their cards and retired. And there are not enough qualified folks to take our places.
VooDoo
Not anymore. Shit is changing fast and it's an employee's market - if you want a job done you'll need to train someone with the correct interests, aptitude, and experience and make a new employee. Or just keep that same 1990's attitude that everyone is "lucky to have a job" and watch yer really good people leave with no one t o fill the jobs.
I'm still convinced that this lack of workers is directly tied to early retirement - literally millions of folks like me went thru this Covid Bullshit Job market and just folded their cards and retired. And there are not enough qualified folks to take our places.
VooDoo
This is what I have always done and I am trying to do now. Just all of a sudden these people think they should be making way more. No way I can afford to hire someone to train and pay them top pay at the same time.
Companies are reviving an old tactic to retain employees....
Question: Do you frequent "Employee Owned" Businesses ? Do you see a different attitude / work ethic in employees that own stock in the company they work for ?
'Great Resignation' sees more companies offer equity to staff
Companies in North America and Europe plan to give more employees an equity stake in their businesses to help retain talent amid a pandemic-induced "Great Resignation", a survey showed on Wednesday.
I'm working for an esop company and its no different from what I've seen. Most people only care what is on their check. Turnover is so bad that the number of people vested was low until they bought other companies and grandfathered them in. People still trash the trucks and equipment.
Some guys won't spend money on parts because they think they are doing the company a favor. Too bad they don't realize the cost of the downtime on certain pieces of equipment. When you have a crew and 20 plus trucks sitting, that $100 they saved ends up costing 5 figures in a very short period of time.
Exactly. The Work World has evolved and changed and will continue to change very rapidly at exponential rates. The "Old and Tried/True Rules" of many interactions are *GONE!* and will never return. The whole Way that money flows and people "earn" a living is evolving - people who went to work every day and attended meetings are working from home (my Wife) and getting much more done without commuting to the office and all that shit. The evolution of the Skype Meeting (or whatever platform you pick) has made permanent changes.
In my former capacity, we were balls to the wall converting Justice Systems (Courtrooms) so that all of it could be conducted remotely to keep people from having to congregate in groups and infect each other. That's never going back - arraignments going forward will mostly be done via Video Conference with the Judges and Attorneys. The inmate doesn't even leave the jail anymore for his day in court. He goes to a secure video room and meets with his lawyer and it's all being done remotely.
The old Ways (like 2020) are superseded and the Rules are all new now between Employer and Employee. Shit has literally turned over in two years. Employers are now going to find out (I was an employer for 20 years) that employees are not "lucky to have a job" and that "everyone is replaceable/expendable" .....The tables are turned. If you need people to do the work (of course you do...) then you'll have to find a way to entice them to get your work done. Or you'll have to do it yourself. I spent the last 7 years of my working Life sucking dick for millionaires to make them rich because, well, we are all expendable and lucky they employ us.
I would not wish that on the young folks coming up to do my former job...I hope they tell potential employers to suck it. You need me? Pay out the ass and train me/treat me like a team member or fuck off. New World - New Rules. Sorry....that's just the Way it is now.
VooDoo
Agreed. If a company is trying to hire someone, and nobody wants the job, then they aren’t paying enough or offering the right incentives. It’s that simple.
So what then? Do more work with less people? That’ll lead to burn out, lengthened lead times, and ultimately a loss in business.
Raise your prices until you reach a point that demand tapers to a more manageable level? You can do that, but you better be the only people available to do that job or the best at that job ever in the history of that job.
What people higher up, or more experienced believe is top pay, obviously is not considered top pay by potential employees. If you can’t pay more, then you have to offer different incentives. Work from home, more days off, childcare, healthcare, free meals, etc.
Jobs literally pay so little that we are having declining birth rates because people can’t afford to have children. That’s pretty fucked up.
The young millennials and Gen z are telling the collective business world to eat a dick. Nobody wants 1977 wages in 2022.
Where do we go from here? More offshoring? Importing immigrants? Smaller job fields? It’ll be interesting.
The post above mine is correct. This isn’t 2008 where companies can make one person do the job of what used to be done by four people, and that person is just thankful to be working.
So let me get this correct. Everyone here is in agreement that someone straight out of high school should be getting paid 60-70k a year right off the bat with no experience?
Reminds me of some BS in my industry.
There is a “pilot shortage” which is code for lots of the regional carriers (like that flight from one state to the next state in a smaller jet or turboprop) well they pay shit, same with lots of cargo ops outside of the real FedEx/UPS big boys running Boeings and airbus
So, some of the roaches are trying to get us to import cheap pilots from other countries, funny thing is the US is by far the aviation capital of the world, we have like 14k airports, next best country is like 4K, we produce more pilots than anywhere, when it comes to aviation we dominate the world with a large margin. There ain’t no shortage.
Now fathom this
Say I move to CA, I decide I don’t want to pay a ton for gas, I find another country has gas for less, I say ship me 1000gal for my car, everyone with laugh at me and it’ll be in violation of a zillion laws.
But if you’re a roach company you can import cheap humans because you’re too cheap to get people in the country you want to make money in.
Illegal to import a gallon of gas as a citizen
Legal to import cheap humans to save a company a few bucks.
There is a “pilot shortage” which is code for lots of the regional carriers (like that flight from one state to the next state in a smaller jet or turboprop) well they pay shit, same with lots of cargo ops outside of the real FedEx/UPS big boys running Boeings and airbus
So, some of the roaches are trying to get us to import cheap pilots from other countries, funny thing is the US is by far the aviation capital of the world, we have like 14k airports, next best country is like 4K, we produce more pilots than anywhere, when it comes to aviation we dominate the world with a large margin. There ain’t no shortage.
Now fathom this
Say I move to CA, I decide I don’t want to pay a ton for gas, I find another country has gas for less, I say ship me 1000gal for my car, everyone with laugh at me and it’ll be in violation of a zillion laws.
But if you’re a roach company you can import cheap humans because you’re too cheap to get people in the country you want to make money in.
Illegal to import a gallon of gas as a citizen
Legal to import cheap humans to save a company a few bucks.
If that’s what it takes for them to come to work and do the job, then yes. That’s how it works.
It’s simple. You have had a job opening at 50k for 2 years. Nobody with the skill/experience level you desire has taken that job. That means your pay is too low. If 60k gets an entry level worker there that has to be trained, then that’s your floor for now for an entry level position. I bet if you offered the job to start at 80k, then you’d get more experienced/qualified applicants.
If you can’t afford to do that then you either continue to be short staffed, or you raise prices which might hurt your business.
Does that make it easier to comprehend?
Even Amazon understands the concept, but are still not paying people what THEY believe they’re worth, and what THEY’RE willing to work for:
An Amazon employee got an 11% raise as part of a companywide pay hike, but says it's not enough: 'It's just not worth it to stay here any more'
After Amazon vowed to double its base pay cap, some employees say the raises they got are lackluster, prompting them to consider working elsewhere.
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