Sidearms & Scatterguns Yavuz 16 Regard, talk me out of it.

Yea, it's a Beretta. What's more relevant to compare it to than the real deal? Granted, it's not a side by side, and the evolution and viability of the Beretta 92 is highly documented without me cosigning for it. The clones will likely not be proofed to such a degree where it matches exactly the original specifications or standards of Beretta. Will that matter? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't heard much about any of the clones except the Taurus, which I have held one in person. They are not too bad but compared to the real deal the fit and finish is unremarkable. Beretta is not a company I would want to compare an imitation to, they kinda set the bar pretty high in my opinion.

I think you'll still enjoy it, if you run it yourself and gain confidence in it even trust your life with it— but there is a chance of poor QC in a metallurgical and measurement spec/exactness with a ton of clones. To the point where it's almost a rule to expect a few "flyers" in quality with any clone. It happens to Beretta, too, but they stay on top of it really well. Just make sure it runs out of the box and don't get discouraged if it has a hiccup or two while breaking in. I seriously doubt it will blow up in your hand if people have any decent amount of input on them otherwise. You hear about shit like that pretty easily.

It's a job to compare a pistol with any other unless you have used both examples. It could reasonably be argued that the Beretta is a modified Walther P38/P1, it is essentially a clone. Whether the Beretta is proofed to the same standards as the Walther I could not say, but as you point out it is unlikely..... By all accounts the quality of the Girsan Yavuz 16 clone is as good if not better than the Beretta 92 clone.

The real deal.
IMG_6139.JPG
 
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The 92 was not based on the P38, it uses a similar locking block design, a locking block which was an early point of failure for two generations of 92s. It's also one of the most tested service pistols, rubbing shoulders directly with the USP, Glock 19, and Sig P226. You're basically saying a Turkish BMW is basically a Model T, and is better than a genuine Bavarian one.
 
The 92 was not based on the P38, it uses a similar locking block design, a locking block which was an early point of failure for two generations of 92s. It's also one of the most tested service pistols, rubbing shoulders directly with the USP, Glock 19, and Sig P226. You're basically saying a Turkish BMW is basically a Model T, and is better than a genuine Bavarian one.

What I'm basically saying is that Beretta stole design from Walther.

 
I will say that they are similar to the point of being suspicious, perhaps the Model T is a hyperbolic comparison. I think it's fair to say the 92 is a sister to the P38 without fully stripping everything and looking for myself or knowing the actual history, you are likely correct on that point and I am wrong —or at least arguably so. I still think the 92 is the fairer of the two, and fairer because of its differences and evolution beyond what might have come from the P38. I can say with emphatic resolve that the 92 is a superior platform to the P38, iteration or not.

To compare a Walther to a clone is typically unrealistic. The case may be otherwise with the M9 clone in question, but it would be an exception to the norm. It is very likely that a genuine P38 will be of higher quality in most regards than a clone of equal era, regardless of cost. I'm sure you could find some guns so old that a modern manufactured clone would put it to shame, or the other rare exceptions to the rule besides that consideration like aftermarket MP5, but that's not what I'm asserting is normal.

I expect you will be pleased with it all the same, really. I'm just trying to explain the status quo, and what I've seen or researched about clone and patent infringement/expiration firearms. You pay proportionally more for that extra 10-15% in performance for the real deal, that's true with a lot of things, but the extra 10-15% is what sets a lot of the firearms market apart.
 
I will say that they are similar to the point of being suspicious, perhaps the Model T is a hyperbolic comparison. I think it's fair to say the 92 is a sister to the P38 without fully stripping everything and looking for myself or knowing the actual history, you are likely correct on that point and I am wrong —or at least arguably so. I still think the 92 is the fairer of the two, and fairer because of its differences and evolution beyond what might have come from the P38. I can say with emphatic resolve that the 92 is a superior platform to the P38, iteration or not.

To compare a Walther to a clone is typically unrealistic. The case may be otherwise with the M9 clone in question, but it would be an exception to the norm. It is very likely that a genuine P38 will be of higher quality in most regards than a clone of equal era, regardless of cost. I'm sure you could find some guns so old that a modern manufactured clone would put it to shame, or the other rare exceptions to the rule besides that consideration like aftermarket MP5, but that's not what I'm asserting is normal.

I expect you will be pleased with it all the same, really. I'm just trying to explain the status quo, and what I've seen or researched about clone and patent infringement/expiration firearms. You pay proportionally more for that extra 10-15% in performance for the real deal, that's true with a lot of things, but the extra 10-15% is what sets a lot of the firearms market apart.

I would agree that most of the time you get what you pay for , but there notable instances where that is not the case, Norinco firearms are a good example. ..... Having owned a Norinco 1911 I can honestly say they are so good that I would not exchange one for a Colt 1911. As I could probably buy three comparable Norinco 1911's for the price of one Colt they are a no brainer.

Regarding the pistol in question yes I could be buying a lemon, but from the research I have done before and since I took the plunge I think I would be just as likely to get lemon from Beretta. ... It's not a direct copy as the locking block and slide have been modified and are not interchangeable with the Beretta.... These notable modifications ( and the other minor ones ) have been made to improve the design, not for the fun of it.

I could have easily have bought a new Beretta, but that would be so incredibly conventional and boring.

There is an almost identical BNIB pistol on Gunbroker for $350... https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793288190

I was hoping to have my new toy by now, but the postie has been taking his time. I will have to wait till Monday.
 
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Most service weapons get locked into their technical data packages and can be arduous to reform any flaws once adopted, sure. The 92, however, has been exceptionally fleshed out of its shortcomings through its service lifespan. The Army has fired over 3 million rounds through them studying their reliability, without the aftermarket changes. They expected for the last M9 a service life of about 25k rounds, but the data dictates roughly 18k is the real life number. That was before the gen 3 locking block, which Beretta had to pitch with the A3 instead of a sweeping revision because of data package bureaucracy. I expect the max round count is around 20k real life rounds with the gen 3. When a clone can justify its deviations from a 3 million round count multi-environment study I'll say it's probably as good or even possibly better, but that data being absent is hence why people feel compelled to buy the real McCoy. If it were easy everyone would do it for the lower price, they can't because it's not. If Beretta, one of the oldest firearms manufacturers in existence, can't do it better for cheaper then it's a safe bet nobody can.

While some improvements may have been made, it is unknown what the objective of the changes are. I can add a lighter barrel to a precision rifle and call it an improvement for hunting, but I'm not fixing a flaw. I can put a lightweight hammer, recoil spring, and match trigger bar on the 92, but it's a less reliable weapon with those improvements. In the end, it would debase the rationale for purchasing into the platform's strengths. People buy the M9 because they want a TDP weapon that lives up to its role, a clone will never have that attribute— especially acquiesced through lower price point imitation. As far as a Norinco 1911 vs a Colt, I can almost say for sure that metallurgically the Norinco is an inferior product. Does it matter in reality, I'd say probably so when it's my own money getting put down for it. I'm not a firearms designer, so I hazzard on the side of better safe than sorry. You can find clones that are viable, but you run a risk. It's entirely more likely someone will tell you what you want to hear just to separate you as a consumer from your money than it is that someone found a way to undercut the originator of the product.
 
Most service weapons get locked into their technical data packages and can be arduous to reform any flaws once adopted, sure. The 92, however, has been exceptionally fleshed out of its shortcomings through its service lifespan. The Army has fired over 3 million rounds through them studying their reliability, without the aftermarket changes. They expected for the last M9 a service life of about 25k rounds, but the data dictates roughly 18k is the real life number. That was before the gen 3 locking block, which Beretta had to pitch with the A3 instead of a sweeping revision because of data package bureaucracy. I expect the max round count is around 20k real life rounds with the gen 3. When a clone can justify its deviations from a 3 million round count multi-environment study I'll say it's probably as good or even possibly better, but that data being absent is hence why people feel compelled to buy the real McCoy. If it were easy everyone would do it for the lower price, they can't because it's not. If Beretta, one of the oldest firearms manufacturers in existence, can't do it better for cheaper then it's a safe bet nobody can.

While some improvements may have been made, it is unknown what the objective of the changes are. I can add a lighter barrel to a precision rifle and call it an improvement for hunting, but I'm not fixing a flaw. I can put a lightweight hammer, recoil spring, and match trigger bar on the 92, but it's a less reliable weapon with those improvements. In the end, it would debase the rationale for purchasing into the platform's strengths. People buy the M9 because they want a TDP weapon that lives up to its role, a clone will never have that attribute— especially acquiesced through lower price point imitation. As far as a Norinco 1911 vs a Colt, I can almost say for sure that metallurgically the Norinco is an inferior product. Does it matter in reality, I'd say probably so when it's my own money getting put down for it. I'm not a firearms designer, so I hazzard on the side of better safe than sorry. You can find clones that are viable, but you run a risk. It's entirely more likely someone will tell you what you want to hear just to separate you as a consumer from your money than it is that someone found a way to undercut the originator of the product.

Beretta have an old established name, not so much with Girsan. It's the Beretta name that people are paying for, and Beretta are happy to take their money. It's good to see the underdog is not afraid of a fight.

PS, I don't think you know much about the metallurgy of Norinco frearms. :)
 
I can make a gun with a frame harder than the gates of hell, that doesn't mean it's going to go for a high round count, or be reliable, or be tougher at all. Furthermore, if you're going to slight me and the credibility of abject information that has established the facts you asked for then I wish you the best of luck with your concerns.
 
Paying for a “name” on clothes....stupid

Paying for a “name” on life saving equipment....not stupid.

People like you buy $10 racing helmets on eBay because you’re sure they’re “just as good”


If Beretta starts turning out junk, and they’re guns get people killed....that’s going to be hazardous to their business.

If Mohamed in his cave in turkey starts turning out shit....it’s not going to effect him one bit.....he doesn’t have a reputation to uphold....they’ll just find a new importer and sell them under a different name.

If you want to buy cheap knock off guns.... by all means..... but please don’t sit here and try to convince us that a Chinese knock off is every bit as good as an original colt
 
Beretta have an old established name, not so much with Girsan. It's the Beretta name that people are paying for
LOL

Beretta shotguns (over unders) last hundreds of thousands of rounds before they need to be put back on face and putting them back on face is easily doable because quality replacement parts are easily available.

My 686 Sporting, with close to 31K rounds through it is just getting started

Good luck finding a Turkish shotgun with that durability.
 
I can make a gun with a frame harder than the gates of hell, that doesn't mean it's going to go for a high round count, or be reliable, or be tougher at all. Furthermore, if you're going to slight me and the credibility of abject information that has established the facts you asked for then I wish you the best of luck with your concerns.

Even my wife knows that hard steel is not necessarily good for building firearms.

I did not ask you about the facts concerning Norinco firearms metallurgy, did you even give me any ?

... Norinco firearms are great, they are everywhere up here. They seem to last forever.
 
Paying for a “name” on clothes....stupid

Paying for a “name” on life saving equipment....not stupid.

People like you buy $10 racing helmets on eBay because you’re sure they’re “just as good”


If Beretta starts turning out junk, and they’re guns get people killed....that’s going to be hazardous to their business.

If Mohamed in his cave in turkey starts turning out shit....it’s not going to effect him one bit.....he doesn’t have a reputation to uphold....they’ll just find a new importer and sell them under a different name.

If you want to buy cheap knock off guns.... by all means..... but please don’t sit here and try to convince us that a Chinese knock off is every bit as good as an original colt

How many people do you know of that have been killed by using a Girsan or Norinco firearm ?

Norinco 1911's are better than Colt 1911's. They cost less than a third of the price of a Colt and keep shooting on and on. How many Norinco's have you owned ?
 
LOL

Beretta shotguns (over unders) last hundreds of thousands of rounds before they need to be put back on face and putting them back on face is easily doable because quality replacement parts are easily available.

My 686 Sporting, with close to 31K rounds through it is just getting started

Good luck finding a Turkish shotgun with that durability.


I know nothing about shot guns, Turkish or otherwise I have only heard rumors.

There's lots of rumours here. :)
 
i realized i had been trolled on page one. i should have known from the title of this thread, and his previous threads, what i was dealing with.

the upside is, maser has company on my ignore list. yall do me a solid, and let me know when he comes on here sniveling because one of his hair brained ideas blows up in his face....with him being on the ignore list, i wont even be able to see it.