Zermatt Origin Vs ARC Coup De Grace? New vs Used make a difference?

[brian2382]

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I was considering building my first Custom Bolt Action rifle. I am going for 6.5CM for distance, continuity, and hunting. I wouldnt mind getting into competition PRS style shooting, but I don't want to build based on that since I have never done it before. I am pretty definite on having a Steel Proof barrel since they offer my specific unit a pretty hefty discount, and I know they make very high quality barrels. I was watching some stuff about the new ARC CDG and it looks awesome, and appears from a very ignorant perspective, better than the Zermatt Origin. However the only prefit barrel I can find for the ARC CDG is the Straight Jacket Armory for $800, which wipes away any sort of savings from the action.

I know that the CDG seems to offer incredible value, but which action would you say is superior, the Zermatt Origin, or ARC CDG?

The Zermatt Origin may be had used where as the CDG will likely not be able to. Do actions get worn over time? Would you all be hesitant to buy a used action? Or is it one of those things that are good for tens of thousands of rounds and would buy with confidence?

Option 1) ARC Coup De Grace + prefit Straight Jacket Armory Barrel = $1,700

Option 2) Zermatt Origin Action + prefit Proof SS. Barrel = $1,300-1,450

And finally, with those prices in mind, what route would you personally choose or recommend?

Update: In a turn of events, I think I am going to go with the Impact 737r. I don't think I have heard a bad thing about them yet, and can get that and a Proof barrel for about $1,450.

 

[TheOE800]

You can get that down to $700ish for a CDG prefit from PVA assuming you want a thread muzzle and forego paint, but yeah the cheaper source of prefit barrels will be Proof. For normies their prices keep creeping upwards towards customs though.

 

[vinniedelpino]

It's going to be damn near impossible to wear out a bolt action and if you do, you will have spent tens of thousands in ammo to do so.

Either action should run wonderfully for at least a lifetime.

I have an origin and have never had any regrets. Origin + PVA prefits are a proven tack driving combo. I'm sure the same can be said for the ARC.

 

[lash]

A used action will most often be a great deal. Any decent action, which includes the two you are considering, will be good for many tens of thousands of rounds.

 

[psharon78]

Comparing the two, there's more design considerations for ARC Coup receivers than with Origin receivers. The ARC has a different and IMO a better extraction cam than a tradition bolt action cam, trigger hanger, more options for scope rails, machined recoil lug if that matters to you.

I've never seen an action worn out. I've seen plenty of toast barrels, but not the action. New vs used action would depend on the new action lead time, I'd like to see the action in person to make sure that Bubba the Gunsmith didn't get to it

 

[b6graham]

no issue with used actions in 99.99% of scenarios

origin currently available. no wait. can use TL3 and origin barrels. tons of prefit options (and not SJA)

 

[brian2382]

A used action will most often be a great deal. Any decent action, which includes the two you are considering, will be good for many tens of thousands of rounds.

It's going to be damn near impossible to wear out a bolt action and if you do, you will have spent tens of thousands in ammo to do so.

Either action should run wonderfully for at least a lifetime.

I have an origin and have never had any regrets. Origin + PVA prefits are a proven tack driving combo. I'm sure the same can be said for the ARC.

I appreciate the advice and tips! I know this is a near impossible question to answer. But I'll wing it anyway. Where do used actions typically stack up pricing vs new? Because they are good for lifetimes do they typically run 90%+ of what you can buy them for? Or do most people buy new, so the used prices land at like 50% of purchase price?


I only ask because it seems like I've seen a lot of chassis go for 50-70% used of what they would go for new.

 

[spife7980]

Id call it a toss up. Do you want it now or later?

 

[vinniedelpino]

I appreciate the advice and tips! I know this is a near impossible question to answer. But I'll wing it anyway. Where do used actions typically stack up pricing vs new? Because they are good for lifetimes do they typically run 90%+ of what you can buy them for? Or do most people buy new, so the used prices land at like 50% of purchase price?


I only ask because it seems like I've seen a lot of chassis go for 50-70% used of what they would go for new.

Nope. They hold their value pretty well. You might get a used action for $100-$150 less than new here with no sales tax. I haven't seen too many (desirable) chassis' go for 50-70% off the new selling price, but I haven't paid much attention lately so who knows.

 

[RFutch]

Origin fanboi here and I now have 220 rounds through my CDG. As others said look at PVA for a CDG prefit.

Both actions are awesome so yeah splitting hairs. If you dont mind waiting the CDG has some really cool features but the Origin is not far off. The Origin does have just the slightest bit of a lighter bolt lift but the CDG is so smooth. Either one will serve you well for a long time.

I'll also add that if I could only have one I'd prob pick the CDG just because the features/design is so awesome. Glad I don't have to though b/c I still love my Origins.

 

[stanley_white]

The Origin does have just the slightest bit of a lighter bolt lift but the CDG is so smooth.

Is the lighter bolt lift in the Origin being compared to the CDG in the traditional camming mode or with the tilt handle?

-Stan

 

[RFutch]

Is the lighter bolt lift in the Origin being compared to the CDG in the traditional camming mode or with the tilt handle?

-Stan

I have the pivoting handle. I should be clear that its barley noticeable.

 

[stanley_white]

I have the pivoting handle. I should be clear that its barley noticeable.

Thank you!

-Stan

 

[Rob01]

I appreciate the advice and tips! I know this is a near impossible question to answer. But I'll wing it anyway. Where do used actions typically stack up pricing vs new? Because they are good for lifetimes do they typically run 90%+ of what you can buy them for? Or do most people buy new, so the used prices land at like 50% of purchase price?


I only ask because it seems like I've seen a lot of chassis go for 50-70% used of what they would go for new.

If you sit around waiting for a $450 used Origin you will never shoot. LOL Actions sell for probably 80% of new from what I have seen. That's still a good savings over new and it's broken in but you have to wait for it as well. If you want it now then buy new.

As to the choice, I would get the Origin. Proven over years and tons of prefit options. The ARC wouldn't be a bad choice but in the end you have to make a choice.

 

[lash]

I agree roughly that it’s a choice of how quickly you want to get shooting. There actually have been a couple CDG actions offered for sale unused here already, though at a slight premium. Whereas a used origin is more readily available now and you will not regret either. A new CDG will likely be a few months wait at least. So you need to choose based on that information.

If it’s a money choice and a time choice, right now the Origin wins. We shall see what the future brings. Either way, you will not go wrong.

Oh, and don’t EVER ask what the best action is, because it is so subjective and there are fans.

That is all.

 

[stevieb92]

Which one is better? I don't think either one is significantly better than the other. They are both fantastic. It's been asked already I'm sure... how soon do you want to be shooting? If sooner is the answer, get the Origin. There are several companies that have it in stock. I just ordered my second Origin the friday before Memorial Day weekend from Paul at Evolved Ballistics and had it in my hands the next week. Since you're a veteran, ask him and he'll give you a great price. I'm not affiliated, but a very satisfied customer.

 

[Supersubes]

I appreciate the advice and tips! I know this is a near impossible question to answer. But I'll wing it anyway. Where do used actions typically stack up pricing vs new? Because they are good for lifetimes do they typically run 90%+ of what you can buy them for? Or do most people buy new, so the used prices land at like 50% of purchase price?


I only ask because it seems like I've seen a lot of chassis go for 50-70% used of what they would go for new.

I like the Origin, and have built quite a few now for myself and customers. The Origin set a new benchmark for value upon its introduction. The CDG has raised that bar significantly imo. You just get a lot more for the exact same money. The trigger hanger system alone would do it for me. Imagine any trigger you like, and it just works, with minimal tinkering! Youre not boxed in with coarse steps swapping cocking pieces or trigger hangers. The AW mag functionality would push me to the CDG, or the integral rail, or the pivoting bolt handle, or the full diameter bolt, or the dual cocking cams. You get all of these things for no extra money. So you wait a couple of months, who cares.

 

[Rob01]

You can’t use any trigger in an Origin? I have used 4 different triggers in my TL3s and no tinkering. Haven’t had any custom action where I had to tinker with the trigger. A hanger is just another piece I wouldn’t want honestly.

AW is nice if you plan to use them and if not it means nothing. Integral rail is something that sounds nicer than it is. Have had actions with and without and never an issue with either. Same with pinned versus integral recoil lug. The other stuff is just that to me but if it’s something he wants then it’s a good option.

 

[Supersubes]

You can’t use any trigger in an Origin? I have used 4 different triggers in my TL3s and no tinkering. Haven’t had any custom action where I had to tinker with the trigger. A hanger is just another piece I wouldn’t want honestly.

AW is nice if you plan to use them and if not it means nothing. Integral rail is something that sounds nicer than it is. Have had actions with and without and never an issue with either. Same with pinned versus integral recoil lug. The other stuff is just that to me but if it’s something he wants then it’s a good option.

Have you gotten to play with a CDG trigger install yet? If you haven't, im sure you will shortly. Game changer.

Does every trigger have the exact perfect upper sear location to have zero cock or fall on close on the TL3? My TL3 is dang close with a jewell, and only a Jewell. Swap triggers, change the feel. You may have gotten close with yours, but likely none of them were perfect. We’ve put up with this since the beginning, now ARC fixed that, for free. Unlike most trigger hangers, the ARC trigger pins take the load, not the hanger.

I like AW mags, and I think theyre a better design than AICS pattern, just a personal opinion. With one exception(aero solus), you used to have to spend a lot of money to get an integral rail, starting price, just about $1400, ARC made it free. Integral lug, free. Nobody complains about these features in their Impact, Defiance, or Lone peak actions, which are all $5-800 more expensive than the CDG.

The trigger hanger is a game changer, no two ways about it. The other things are nice to haves, but when you’re cross shopping the CDG with an Origin, these nice to haves are free. The Origin isn't bad, but the CDG is better.

 

[Rob01]

I must not have a refined bolt hand to feel the nuances of the bolt lift lol. I grab it and rip it. Never felt any difference in any action or trigger. Sounds like something that if you pay close attention to in slower motion you can feel but in actual match use you won’t. Does that sound about right?

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

I must not have a refined bolt hand to feel the nuances of the bolt lift lol. I grab it and rip it. Never felt any difference in any action or trigger. Sounds like something that if you pay close attention to in slower motion you can feel but in actual match use you won’t. Does that sound about right?

To be fair, that can be said about many features and selling points of custom actions.

 

[Supersubes]

I must not have a refined bolt hand to feel the nuances of the bolt lift lol. I grab it and rip it. Never felt any difference in any action or trigger. Sounds like something that if you pay close attention to in slower motion you can feel but in actual match use you won’t. Does that sound about right?

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with lift, so no, it doesn't sound right.

 

[Rob01]

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with lift, so no, it doesn't sound right.

You talked about feel so that’s what I thought you meant but as far as dropping on close or cocking issues then no never an issue. Only had it on a 700 when I adjusted it too low.

If that’s not it then what is the point I missed?

 

[Rob01]

To be fair, that can be said about many features and selling points of custom actions.

Yes it can. That’s why the end user has to figure what they want and/or need for themselves. All the cool features in the CDG just make me go “ok”. Nothing that would make me want to go buy one but someone else might be excited about them and want them. I have had custom actions with all of them except the trigger hanger, which I wouldn’t want anyways.

 

[Fret]

The OP would probably be happy with either one. Sounds like the big difference is wait time and the availability of prefit barrels.
I have 6 TL3s which are more or less like an Origin but can be customized. I use both Jewell and TT triggers on them and they work just fine from my novice perspective. It was great that every time I ordered a TL3 in the configuration I wanted it was in stock and it was easy to get barrels. I didn't have to wait long to screw the things together at home.

 

[TheOE800]

Does every trigger have the exact perfect upper sear location to have zero cock or fall on close on the TL3? My TL3 is dang close with a jewell, and only a Jewell. Swap triggers, change the feel. You may have gotten close with yours, but likely none of them were perfect. We’ve put up with this since the beginning, now ARC fixed that, for free. Unlike most trigger hangers, the ARC trigger pins take the load, not the hanger.

Yeeep, TL3 with everyone’s favorite Triggertech needs a cocking piece swap. It’s just not talked about too much here.

 

[TheOE800]

Or 30 secs of filing

Listen, if I wanted to file stuff I’d have gone into the trades.

 

[AXEFORCE6]

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Go this route. It’s available now and cheaper than you expected.

 

[brian2382]

I have no problem waiting. I have multiple (factory) bolt rifles and precision gas rifles that I am not in the slightest rush. So time is not a concern.

However, money of course is. And as much as I love the CDG, and think its a great value for $900, it might as well actually be $1,300 because all Barrel options for it are $400 more expensive then a prefit straight from Proof for me.

So I guess the question would come in, how does the CDG compare to more expensive actions like the 737r or the Terminus Zeus?

 

[Hennig]

How much are Origin pre-fits?

 

[Rob01]

Yeeep, TL3 with everyone’s favorite Triggertech needs a cocking piece swap. It’s just not talked about too much here.

Swap? Run a Diamond on one of my TL3s and never did anything to it. Why is a swap needed?

 

[vinniedelpino]

How much are Origin pre-fits?

It varies wildly depending on the blank, configuration and time of year. Last origin prefit I ordered was a PVA osprey and it came to $562.32. This was in July and it was on sale. I was looking for a specific length/chambering/contour. Off the shelf prefits were cheaper.

Proof prefits are also tack drivers and run about the same through Altus right now. Options are limited though. Those are the "budget" options I generally stick with. There are lots of great prefits being offered, but most are more expensive.

 

[TheSunPope]

How much are Origin pre-fits?

I got a shouldered criterion prefit with threaded muzzle and cerakote from Northland for $550

 

[TheOE800]

Swap? Run a Diamond on one of my TL3s and never did anything to it. Why is a swap needed?

To minimize the cock on close.

 

[Rob01]

To minimize the cock on close.

But it's not needed right? Just if you want a lighter feel?

 

[Hennig]

It varies wildly depending on the blank, configuration and time of year. Last origin prefit I ordered was a PVA osprey and it came to $562.32. This was in July and it was on sale. I was looking for a specific length/chambering/contour. Off the shelf prefits were cheaper.

Proof prefits are also tack drivers and run about the same through Altus right now. Options are limited though. Those are the "budget" options I generally stick with. There are lots of great prefits being offered, but most are more expensive.

And the CDG Osprey pre-fits are what, $685 with muzzle threading? I was just curious to see old mates example of a $400 dearer pre-fit, all things being equal.

 

[spife7980]

But it's not needed right? Just if you want a lighter feel?

Closing the bolt with a seamless hand off is more pleasant to operate then having to overcome spring pressure before engaging the lugs.

 

[TheOE800]

But it's not needed right? Just if you want a lighter feel?

Uh sure, if you don’t want to operate it as designed?

 

[Rob01]

Yes, closing the bolt with a seamless hand off is more pleasant to operate then having to overcome spring pressure before engaging the lugs.

Hmm never really noticed. As I mentioned I am grabbing the bolt and ripping and slamming so never felt anything different than any other action or trigger I have used. Maybe I will take my two TL3s out and work it slow with a couple fingers and compare the Timney Calvin to the TT Diamond.

Uh sure, if you don’t want to operate it as designed?

LOL But it does operate just fine. That's what I am trying to figure out here. Seems like it's just for guys wanting super light bolt manipulation. Never noticed an issue personally.

 

[TheOE800]

LOL But it does operate just fine. That's what I am trying to figure out here. Seems like it's just for guys wanting super light bolt manipulation. Never noticed an issue personally.

Does Zermatt or Triggertech pay you? LOL. I want the designed bolt throw characteristics, not some overcocked AI “bank vault” crap.

Trigger timing is a thing; The advent of the assemble-at-home precision rifle has eliminated that fine gunsmith fitting. Either Zermatt’s or Triggertech’s tolerances are poor in some dimension so some people’s systems exhibit cock on close and some don’t, or there was a change over time.

 

[Rob01]

Does Zermatt or Triggertech pay you? LOL. I want the designed bolt throw characteristics, not some overcocked AI “bank vault” crap.

No have no connection to either except to use their products. Sorry if I don't see what all you others do. My rifle runs fine and no tinkering. I run my bolt and have no issues with being "overcocked". I must run it different than the rest of you complaining about the TT.

 

[CK1.0]

I'm biased since I'm an Origin owner/user but...

IMHO the main difference I'd recommend an Origin over the newer CDG is that it's already proven, it's been out since late 2018, and any warts have already been discovered and addressed, and for a guy's first/only custom that's kind of a big deal. Maybe take a chance on the second build?

While ARC/Ted always brings lots of innovation, they also have a poor track record of getting it right on the first try, with them often releasing things that haven't been fully vetted, with nagging issues that get discovered that then have to be remedied (examples: ARC mag issues, Mausingfield issues, Nucleus issues, etc).

Besides, bias aside, I just don't see much benefit to any/all of the bells and whistles the CDG offers over the Origin... just more unnecessary complication and stuff that over the long haul might end up being cons instead of pros (like the trigger hanger not playing nice with some chassis', prefit barrels never being widely available, etc). Most of the time... less is more.

 

[Rob01]

Trigger timing is a thing; The advent of the assemble-at-home precision rifle has eliminated that fine gunsmith fitting. Either Zermatt’s or Triggertech’s tolerances are poor in some dimension so some people’s systems exhibit cock on close and some don’t, or there was a change over time.

To respond to your edit, not sure what it is. I just went and tried both mine with the Timney in one and the TT in the other and they both felt the exact same. Maybe I am just lucky but that would be a first. LOL

 

[brian2382]

I think I am going to pull the trigger on the 737r & Stainless Steel Proof barrel. Would it be fair to say that the 737 seems to be at a higher performance over the CDG? Even though the CDG does have some newer features?

I probably sound like such a noob lmao. But it's because I am in the bolt action rhelm of things.

 

[lash]

No, that’s not what anyone is saying. However, if all you are after is the best of the best, then you’ll probably be waiting and waiting as people throw their differing opinions around and confuse the situation more.

If what you want is a good solid action for the lowest cost, then your choice (between the two you’ve listed) comes down to whether you want to or are willing to wait or not.

 

[spife7980]

I think I am going to pull the trigger on the 737r & Stainless Steel Proof barrel. Would it be fair to say that the 737 seems to be at a higher performance over the CDG? Even though the CDG does have some newer features?

I probably sound like such a noob lmao. But it's because I am in the bolt action rhelm of things.

Sure, if you are into push feed trash.
(Those differing opinions lash was referring to)

 

[kthomas]

But it's not needed right? Just if you want a lighter feel?

Depends.

I had a TL3 (for a very brief time), and when I put a TT in it the sear engagement was so heavy that the bolt lift and close was horrendous (and this is putting it mildly).

It made an AI's bolt lift feel light. And the bolt close was even worse.

 

[Kiba]

I've got 3 AIs, a TL3, an impact, an Archimedes, and a CDG on order.

The TL3 is similar to the origin, and the Archimedes is similar to the CDG.

I like them all but the Archimedes is my favorite action of all of them to run, it's fast and super smooth with a great bolt feel (even with the <90 degree bolt lift) and it has never let me down. I expect similar things from the CDG once it gets here as it's basically an AW double stack mag compatible Archimedes with toolless takedown and a trigger hanger.

As far as the comments that other ARC actions have had multiple revisions, the nucleus is always used as the example but nobody seems to point out that their action released after the nucleus but prior to the CDG (the Archimedes) hit the ground running and had zero changes over the entire production run until it was replaced by the CDG. I think ARC learned some painful lessons from the initial nucleus release and revisions that followed and don't care to repeat that, so I'm pretty confident the CDG will be solid right from the start.

On the subject of trigger hangers, I have mixed feelings. I like being able to easily install/remove/time the trigger, but I don't like that the screws that hold the hanger to the action can potentially come loose and cause problems, and also there's the potential stock/chassis clearance issues. Hard to beat the security and reliability of a conventionally pinned trigger, even if you have to modify or buy a different cocking piece to time the trigger. Sometimes a $30 cocking piece is a better option than carving out a $1000+ stock or chassis to clear a trigger hanger.

If off the shelf barrel availability from the largest selection of prefit makers is important to you, then as of right now there are certainly more options out there for zermatt, defiance, and impact. I think we'll see more vendors offering CDG prefits over time, but as of now they're nowhere near as plentiful as zermatt, defiance, or impact prefits.

 

[TheOE800]

Defiance was an easy premium recommendation when their actions weren’t $1600-1700 base.

 

[lash]

Defiance was an easy premium recommendation when their actions weren’t $1600-1700 base.

Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see how well that works out for them going forward. I’m sure it helped with their backlog…