Zermatt Rim X failure to fire

[jbell]

First off I have emailed Zermatt and am waiting on their replay with 100% confidence that they will get me squared away quickly, but in the mean time I thought I would ask if anyone else has been down this road (which is probably covered in detail in the RimX thread or some other thread that I am too lazy to go search out).

Here is the deal: I have a Rim X that I installed a Timney 2 stage trigger in and found that I had to back the over travel all the way off to get the firing pin to fall. The trigger sear would release from the trigger shoe but not move low enough for the firing pin to clear. With the firing pin now falling and after maybe 100-130 rounds through the rifle I have had 4-5 failure to fire both with Center X and Eley Match. All 4 were rechambered and fired as expected. All 4 showed what looked to be a normal firing pin engraving. I have confirmed there is no debris in the trigger, action, or bolt assembly, it is all clean.

In addition to the strange trigger adjustments and the FTF I have been seeing some flyers that I can not account for (yeah yeah I know...), but I am starting to think it might be attributed to inconsistency in ignition.

I have a 2nd Timney trigger that arrived today that I will try and after I buy another chassis I have a T7T trigger that I will try (it doesn’t fit in the Bravo chassis). So right now I have not tried a different trigger, but plan to.

thoughts?...

 

[47guy]

Sounds like the cocking piece dragging on the sear slowing the pin fall.

 

[jbell]

Sounds like the cocking piece dragging on the sear slowing the pin fall.

Yes I agree 100%, I was just looking to see if this is something that others have ran into with this combination.

 

[StrayDog]

Oh man, I wish my LH Jewell would work to lend you--no doubt this'll get get squared away soon. Glad to hear the rifle is coming together!

 

[jcmullis2]

I agree with you. It’s gotta be related to the trigger/action combination. I’m watching with interest. I’m planning to use both on my first 22LR build.

 

[BigJimFish]

I have not tried that trigger but I do remember seeing something about it having ignition problems in some other action and something about it causing more drag than most. I think it was an action maker complaining about it on youtube. The overtravel screw thing is strange though. It does not typically matter how far the trigger moves after the sear clears. I haven't seen a Timney open to analyze it's mechanism though. I wouldn't be surprised either by the trigger just being a defective example or by that model just not working well with that action because the action is sensitive to drag and the model has more that most.

 

[jbell]

I’ll keep this thread updated as I go. I just purchased a Manners so I can try my T7T and will also try the other Timney. I am not afraid of disassembling the trigger and stoning some material away, but first I want to hear back from Zermatt. I have tried to reach out to Timney a few times (about another unrelated topic) but they never answered or returned my call. We will see...

 

[deltawiskey]

It's great to see that you picked one of these up jbell! I am looking forward to your long term reviews.
DW

 

[jbell]

It's great to see that you picked one of these up jbell! I am looking forward to your long term reviews.
DW

I just had to know how they are. We will chat...

 

[jbell]

I heard back from Ray at Zermatt first thing this morning, so A+ for customer service as I expected. Here is his reply:

"Your issues are more than likely related to the way the trigger is interacting with our action. Those Timney 2 stage triggers have presented the most issues overall with our products. I'd be willing to bet if you took .010" to .015" off the sliding surface of the cocking piece, your issues would at least be greatly reduced if not go away.

If you don't have the equipment to do that, please let me know and I can get a new cocking piece made up and sent your way."

Easy enough. I'll take some measurements and document how it goes for everyone here in this thread. Probably in a day or two.

 

[b6graham]

same thing here. timney CE 2 stage was worthless

TT Diamond no issues

I'll probably email ray for a cocking piece though so i can run both when i want

 

[jbell]

same thing here. timney CE 2 stage was worthless

TT Diamond no issues

I'll probably email ray for a cocking piece though so i can run both when i want

Yeah I'm probably going to get me a stock cocking piece just to have. I can't complain about the feel of the trigger thus far, but the sear height is a bit unacceptable.

 

[RETE8]

Good to know about the trigger issue.....I have been looking at getting a TS Customs built Rim-X

 

[flatland1]

It's odd, but I had problems with a Timney CE single stage trigger on that Stiller 2500XR I built back in 2016, and when I tried to use the same trigger on the 1st 40X that Jonathan Elrod converted to use V-22 magazines, I had the same problem. I would squeeze that trigger, and the trigger shoe would jump to the rear of its travel and just hang up there, without releasing the sear. The odd thing was that it behaved the same way on the 40X when I moved it to that action. Finally replaced it with a couple of Jewell HVRs on both rifles, which worked great. IIRC, I put that Timney CE on one of my CF rifles, and it worked fine there. But because of that experience, I never tried another CE on any of the other 22RF repeaters I've put together since, including three V-22s & a RimX. I used another Jewell HVR on a V-22 sporter, and went with TT Diamonds on two comp V-22s and the RimX.

 

[jbell]

I know of 2 Timney Triggers in Vudoo rifles and they are both flawless, so who knows...

**That isn’t meant to compare the V-22 to the RimX that is just to say that I wouldn’t completely write off the Timney triggers. I honestly like how they feel and they are not as expensive as some options. I will know for sure if this is a trigger issue this weekend.

 

[Criver600]

I know of 2 Timney Triggers in Vudoo rifles and they are both flawless, so who knows...

**That isn’t meant to compare the V-22 to the RimX that is just to say that I wouldn’t completely write off the Timney triggers. I honestly like how they feel and they are not as expensive as some options. I will know for sure if this is a trigger issue this weekend.

Sear engagement, a "Fitted sear" will take care of the problem. Bullet Central has a sear fitment chart for Bix & Andy triggers, measure from the top of the trigger pin to the bottom of the cocking piece, order the correct height sear and its off to the races. I have several Borden benchrest actions Borden will either sell you a trigger with the sear ground to fit their action or send them a trigger and they will fit it up. Bolt will run with one finger when it's right. Good Luck!

 

[Adam B]

Since it was my RimX that you bought, I had a TT Diamond installed on it for the little amount of rounds I fired through it and there were no issues. I have heard of a few issues with Timney and a few other triggers with them.

 

[Hi-Wall]

Does anyone other than Timney make a two stage for 700 type actions that will compare to my Kidd two stage? I really like a two stage trigger but I'd hate to get into the buy it, try it, and put it in the junk box scenario. I know what I'd do if Tony started making Model 700 triggers.

 

[b6graham]

Does anyone other than Timney make a two stage for 700 type actions that will compare to my Kidd two stage? I really like a two stage trigger but I'd hate to get into the buy it, try it, and put it in the junk box scenario. I know what I'd do if Tony started making Model 700 triggers.

TT Diamond. Bix. Xtreme. Tubb.
Can't guarantee which will work out of the box. They all feel different

 

[Hi-Wall]

TT Diamond. Bix. Xtreme. Tubb.
Can't guarantee which will work out of the box. They all feel different

Thanks, I had the erroneous impression that the TT Diamond and Bix were single stage and I was unaware of the other two. Thanks. More research to do.

 

[b6graham]

Thanks, I had the erroneous impression that the TT Diamond and Bix were single stage and I was unaware of the other two. Thanks. More research to do.

They make 2 stage for both

 

[jbell]

The Tubb is my favorite 700 trigger but it has a larger body that needs to be fit to some chassis and socks.

 

[padom]

BixN Andy TacSport Pro 2 Stage. my favorite. Able to be tuned exactly to your like, 1st stage travel and pull weight, 2nd stage pull weight. multiple sears available, multiple trigger shoes available. I had Jewells, TT Diamonds and Timney CE. I sold them all and replaced 7 now in my rifles with BNA TacSport Pro 2 Stages.

For anyone wondering, ALL Zermatt actions (SR3, TL3, RimX, Origin) all use the BixN Andy LOW sear. I havent had a single issue with all of mine in any of my Zermatt/Bighorn actions. I had Don at Bullet Central tune all of mine to my exact specs as well. They are amazing.

 

[orkan]

If you look on the inside of the plates when you manually push the sear down, you'll likely see some rub marks where the cocking piece is dragging. I've noticed this a few times with the trigger techs now.

The second thing is to make sure you lube the crap out of the firing pin rod where it goes through the bolt shroud. Pack a bunch of really sticky good grease into the firing pin rod spring just ahead of the bolt shroud, then put the bayonet it back in the bolt body, and put more grease between the cocking piece and the bolt shroud. It's tough to get it in there... but its needed. Use much more grease than you think you should.

 

[jbell]

If you look on the inside of the plates when you manually push the sear down, you'll likely see some rub marks where the cocking piece is dragging. I've noticed this a few times with the trigger techs now.

The second thing is to make sure you lube the crap out of the firing pin rod where it goes through the bolt shroud. Pack a bunch of really sticky good grease into the firing pin rod spring just ahead of the bolt shroud, then put the bayonet it back in the bolt body, and put more grease between the cocking piece and the bolt shroud. It's tough to get it in there... but its needed. Use much more grease than you think you should.

Is there grease to reduce friction within the bolt assembly so that any added friction from something like my trigger isn't as exaggerated?

 

[JG26_Irish]

Is there grease to reduce friction within the bolt assembly so that any added friction from something like my trigger isn't as exaggerated?

JB - Chip McCormick makes (made) a product called "Trigger Job" that is a very slick moly grease which is a good one for this application. I bough mine 30y ago when I was building IPSC pistols. I am sure there are others. I have a Timney calvin elite in one of my Rem 700 CF rifles. It is a single stage but I have had a handful of failure to fire events while testing it also. I was blaming it on old cheap ammo but will have to check into it more now. Otherwise I really like the trigger.

Irish

 

[jbell]

I started down the road of fitting the trigger to the action today. First I measured the current cocking piece height to the top of the shroud directly adjacent from the cocking piece (using the fixed anvil of my mic and the round portion of the cocking piece as a reference, to be repeatable).

First measurement before starting:

Witness marks of dragging on the sear:

Witness marks on the cocking piece:

First round of fitting, honing the cocking piece on a flat diamond stone:

Testing the fit using a sharpie and a few dry firing, still dragging:

Remove a bit more:

Still too much contact:

Removing a little more:

Looking pretty good:

We went to the range and put 160 rounds through it with no FTF! There bolt lift and close was much easier, not as easy as the Vudoo but much better! The accuracy seems pretty good but after 160 rounds I think there is a little room for improvement, still slightly dragging (it was polished to a mirror finish on my ceramic stone, you can clearly see the witness marks):

 

[JaoeyP]

I heard back from Ray at Zermatt first thing this morning, so A+ for customer service as I expected. Here is his reply:

"Your issues are more than likely related to the way the trigger is interacting with our action. Those Timney 2 stage triggers have presented the most issues overall with our products. I'd be willing to bet if you took .010" to .015" off the sliding surface of the cocking piece, your issues would at least be greatly reduced if not go away.

If you don't have the equipment to do that, please let me know and I can get a new cocking piece made up and sent your way."

Easy enough. I'll take some measurements and document how it goes for everyone here in this thread. Probably in a day or two.

I had basically the same issue with my first Origin and a 2-stage CE Timney. Ray was awesome about taking the action and trigger back and adjusting the components to work together.

 

[jbell]

I had basically the same issue with my first Origin and a 2-stage CE Timney. Ray was awesome about taking the action and trigger back and adjusting the components to work together.

He offered to do that to mine, but I am more than capable and enjoy the process.

 

[jbell]

Will I think I'm finally happy with it. I too a bit more off the cocking piece last night for a total of about 0.010"

I check it with ink and it looked pretty good only very slight contact not enough to remove the ink.

We put another 150 rounds through it today and had no FTF. Here is the witness marks after the 150 today:

 

[rick137]

@jbell:

A question.

Bix'n Andy TacSport Pro triggers can be fitted with three different top sear heights. Would one of the three top sears have eliminated the need for 'smithing?

 

[padom]

@jbell:

A question.

Bix'n Andy TacSport Pro triggers can be fitted with three different top sear heights. Would one of the three top sears have eliminated the need for 'smithing?

Yes, it would have. As stated above, the BNA "LOW" sear is the one required for the RimX (and all Bighorn/Zermatt actions). He did what he did to properly fit the Timney trigger he was using....

 

[nbutze]

Yes, it would have. As stated above, the BNA "LOW" sear is the one required for the RimX (and all Bighorn/Zermatt actions). He did what he did to properly fit the Timney trigger he was using....

Yes, so a Low Sear would have been the right fit for this.

Looks like there was some improvising going on here which is fine and I believe will work, but we do have a solution so you don't have to do this in the future!

Give us a call anytime at Bullet Central/Bix'n Andy USA 701 371 4444 with tech questions.

 

[b6graham]

my TT diamond is starting to have occasional FTF. they go off with a recock.

might try taking a few thou off with a diamond stone

 

[Zermatt Arms]

my TT diamond is starting to have occasional FTF. they go off with a recock.

might try taking a few thou off with a diamond stone

Throw some grease in the shroud underneath the cocking piece while it's in the cocked position. You may just be experiencing some drag between the pin and the spring.

 

[jbell]

So I wanted to circle back around to this now that my daughter has put a few hundred more rounds through the rifle to report that there has been no more failure to fire. So that is resolved.

However I have been seeing some inconsistencies with the accuracy, both with my daughters shooting and with me shooting. I was able to get a fairly calm day to do some troubleshooting. It turns out the magazine height is both very sensitive and very critical (the last part being an obvious statement). What I am finding strange is that I have to adjust the magazine to the lowest possible position for the fliers to go away. But then occasionally it will not pick up a round from the magazine. I have tried it at the 1/16” of vertical play, absolutely no play (adjusted so heigh the magazine just barely locks in) and all in between. If I don’t have the magazine all the way down the bolt will either dent the case in the magazine as it slides over it, and or shave some of the bullet off or the bullet will not go cleanly into the chamber. I can feel it when it gets a little hung up dragging going in and you can see the round POI shift from the group. I spent a lot of time making the most minute adjustments but I don’t think it is perfect just yet. I am going to bring a different chassis next trip to the range. Here are the targets with some notes so you can see the flyers and accuracy gin or loss I am talking about.

 

[flatland1]

Very interesting results jbell - I've not played with the mag catch adjustment much since going with the minimum amount of play that would still afford easy latching of mags in the Hawkins DBM in a Manners PRS1T stock. I've pulled the Bartlein bbl that I fitted & chambered twice to address mistakes made during the initial chambering, all of which could've been easily avoided if I'd had more information concerning the headspace gauge that ships with the action. And each time, the work done improved groups' size & consistency. However, at this point, my two V-22s (oldest one is in the 10XX S/N range, I did the bbl work on a Krieger sendero blankw/EPS reamer; the newer one S/N 17xx, purchased as a bbl'd action with Bartlein Kukri chambered by VGW with Ravage reamer) both feed smoother than the RimX, and shoot slightly smaller & more consistent groups. I've never asked Mike Bush for info on his Ravage reamer, but since the newer of the two V-22s feeds consistently smoother than the 1st one that I used the EPS reamer on, I'm going to assume the Ravage reamer has some taper from rear to front, perhaps as much as the Win M52D Match reamer. To that end, I've purchased a M52D Match reamer from JGS, and intend to pull the Bartlein off the RimX - again - to set it back .050" and then use the M52D reamer to modify the existing EPS chamber. I've kept several of your Snipers Hide 6x5 Rimfire Challenge targets fired in very good conditions with the Bartlein/EPS chamber, so if I can get comparison shooting done with the same lots of SK & Lapua ammo on days with good conditions after using the 52D Match reamer, I'm hoping to have a valid comparison of the two chambers on the same bbl in the same action.

Of course, it'd be great if I had time to get out and do the comparison you've done to see if different mag catch heights have as marked an effect on group sizes in my rifle as they did in yours, but I'm still working at drilling our winter wheat crop, and will probably swing right on into fall harvest as soon as that's done. Just no time to get the shooting necessary done before temps drop-off as we move closer to winter.... If only I could be lucky enough to snag a decent lottery jackpot, I'd build a nice, fully equipped indoor or underground testing range, and could then get all this sort of shooting done without time & weather constraints....

 

[jbell]

I was shocked to see how much a difference in accuracy a small amount of magazine height made. You can feel it in the bolt when chambering a round.

I find it interesting that the 20+ different magazines I have used in 3 different V-22 barreled actions with 4 different trigger manufactures and I think 4 different chassis / stock bottom metal configurations shooting at least 8 maybe 10 different ammunition there hasn't been one reason to make a change or modification to any of it (other than a rifle shooting X ammo better than Y and).

I know I'm only dealing with a sample size of 1 with the RimX but I'm starting to think there may be some solutions looking for problems.

**This is not a dig on the RimX, it's designers, or the company, nor is it a Vudoo vs RimX statement. It's just my thoughts in general. I absolutely acknowledge the design work and innovative thinking that has gone into the RimX, but I question it's validity. Again sample size of 1...

If any of y'all were around in the Scout days maybe you remember the Stiller 2500XR struggles I had. That was rough!

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Those are some nice groups. The rounds that "felt funny" when feeding, did they all feel that way at the same point in the feed process or did you notice it?

 

[jbell]

Those are some nice groups. The rounds that "felt funny" when feeding, did they all feel that way at the same point in the feed process or did you notice it?

It was just the rounds that were noted. They just had noticeably more drag than the rest.

 

[flatland1]

If any of y'all were around in the Scout days maybe you remember the Stiller 2500XR struggles I had. That was rough!

Jesse,
I most certainly do remember the problems you had with extraction/ejection in you 2500XR. IIRC, I had mine up & running about the time you started posting your problems. This being the 1st 22RF build I'd done, I was so much into shooting it for a few weeks that I may not have become aware of the problems you were having immediately. Even though I had no problems with my Stiller, I was so attracted to the idea of converting one or both of my CMP 40Xs to use MIke's then new V-22 mags that I sold the Stiller to help pay for the 40X conversion. I'm pretty darned sure I didn't do anything different - let alone better - than your smith did with your 2500XR action; instead, it seemed to me that some of these actions just ran better than others. Unfortunately for the guys who invested in the EO limited run of rifles based on the same action, there were so many delays in getting them finished & delivered that I don't recall reading much - if anything - from owners concerning how they worked out.

 

[jbell]

Yes, I agree that mine may have been an anomaly. It certainly was very accurate! Once I figured it all out it was a pretty sweet rifle. I just brought it up to illustrate the point that rimfire repeater perfection can be difficult to attain. If it were not for companies like Stiller, VGW, & Zermatt pushing the design we would all be shooting single shot rifles.

 

[EddieE]

Nice shooting J...If you were a novice and this was your first experience with a 22 you probably would be selling that gun or at least cursing the day you bought it (at least I would). I'm sure you will find a fix.

 

[RTH1800]

To the folks packing grease in the bolt. That is a recipe for inconsistent ignition and FTF in cold weather.
Actually fixing the problem(s) and a LIGHT graphite coating is a far better solution.
I don’t think some folks realize the importance of consistent ignition in rimfire shooting.

 

[jbell]

To the folks packing grease in the bolt. That is a recipe for inconsistent ignition and FTF in cold weather.
Actually fixing the problem(s) and a LIGHT graphite coating is a far better solution.
I don’t think some folks realize the importance of consistent ignition in rimfire shooting.

So very true! This is why I have not nor will I use grease, maybe a synthetic dry lube but not grease. I feel like grease will be fine if you clean and re-grease often enough, but I am not sure if the juice would be worth the squeeze.

 

[b6graham]

Throw some grease in the shroud underneath the cocking piece while it's in the cocked position. You may just be experiencing some drag between the pin and the spring.

Is there a video on this? May be helpful for others as well

 

[RTH1800]

Packing grease in the bolt is the wrong way to fix this issue. The answer is a correctly machined action mated to a correctly fitted trigger.

 

[orkan]

If only there were greases that could handle cold weather and hot alike.

Oh wait, there is.

Slip 2000 - Extreme Weapons Grease

Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Grease.

www.slip2000.com

I've run it in bolt guns from -30f to 120f. Never an issue. I've run it in RimX's from around 10f to 105f. No problem. I'm sure it will get cold enough to test sub zero in a rimx this winter.

 

[RTH1800]

Or, you could fix the problem(s)

 

[jbell]

If only there were greases that could handle cold weather and hot alike.

Oh wait, there is.

Slip 2000 - Extreme Weapons Grease

Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Grease.

www.slip2000.com

I've run it in bolt guns from -30f to 120f. Never an issue. I've run it in RimX's from around 10f to 105f. No problem. I'm sure it will get cold enough to test sub zero in a rimx this winter.

That's interesting looking grease. I see they claim a very wide temp range. I wonder if this means there is no viscosity change in this temp range? I'm sure it still has good lubrication properties down super cold but my concern would be if it becomes more viscus (like most every other grease out there) then it is very likely to increase lock time vs warm weather.

But as I was typing that it occurred to me that the increase in lock time really wouldn't matter when the ambient air temp is well below freezing because rimfire accuracy goes to hell down there anyway. So it wouldn't matter...

I'll order me some of that grease to test it out. Thanks Greg.