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Rifle Scopes Zero Compromise Optic update

#451
nick338 said:
Maybe it's just me but weight wasn't even in my thought process as we were waiting for this release. For me, any scope in a 5-25 or 6-24 range is going on a rifle I'm primarily shooting prone and not having to carry. I'm not sure I would have even been happy if the weight of the ZCO was considerably lighter than other comparable scopes as I would suspect there would be an adverse trade off that may affect performance or durability. No free lunch.
Click to expand...
Weight is really more of a personal preference, what is heavy to some may not be heavy to others. A few years ago my weight limit was 30oz and that limited me to a very few select scopes, I've since moved my threshold to 35oz which has opened the door to many more scopes. My main long range rig which once had a Vortex AMG on it now has a Minox ZP5 5-25, this is a rig I use for long range and for hunting and I think the ZP5 is a formidable big game scope as I can easily frame a bull elk at 50yards within the FOV at 5x, same with the AMG at 6x. I have not really noticed the increased 5oz or so between the AMG and ZP5 and I suppose one could argue "then you wouldn't notice the additional 6 oz of the TT" and you might be right, but I try to position a scope between optical/mechanical quality and weight for my rigs since all of my gear serves dual purpose as steel/hunting and for me personally, I find nothing wrong with the turrets of the ZP5, they are more than adequate for me to dial quickly and correctly and the MR4 is my favorite tree reticle though there are others I like. If I had a dedicated rifle to just competition or long range then I don't think I'd care either about the weight, in fact, I think my scope of choice for that would be the Revic because of the HUD even though it may not be as good optically as other top tier scopes.

Now, getting into Ultra Shorts I think more shooters are trying to "trim up" and I had so hoped the ZCO ZC420 would have been closer to 30oz, but 35oz is just within my threshold so it's not out of the question, but it's going to have to do a lot to beat out the K318i.
 
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#452
All the excitement over this new optic is awesome! We get a lot of reviews from those that have to have the latest greatest paying full retail. Later this year or next when the hype dies down the rest of will get them for under $3,000 as some will decide they want something else or they are not moving off the retailers shelves. Patience!! For now my Tangent Theta 525, Schmitty’s and Kahles Optics will have to do. I’m sure I’ll eventually get one or two....
 
#453
M5NSX said:
All the excitement over this new optic is awesome! We get a lot of reviews from those that have to have the latest greatest paying full retail. Later this year or next when the hype dies down the rest of will get them for under $3,000 as some will decide they want something else or they are not moving off the retailers shelves. Patience!! For now my Tangent Theta 525, Schmitty’s and Kahles Optics will have to do. I’m sure I’ll eventually get one or two....
Click to expand...


If you can buy them under $3k than you have a better dealer than ours... :cry:
 
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#454
wjm308 said:
Weight is really more of a personal preference, what is heavy to some may not be heavy to others. A few years ago my weight limit was 30oz and that limited me to a very few select scopes, I've since moved my threshold to 35oz which has opened the door to many more scopes. My main long range rig which once had a Vortex AMG on it now has a Minox ZP5 5-25, this is a rig I use for long range and for hunting and I think the ZP5 is a formidable big game scope as I can easily frame a bull elk at 50yards within the FOV at 5x, same with the AMG at 6x. I have not really noticed the increased 5oz or so between the AMG and ZP5 and I suppose one could argue "then you wouldn't notice the additional 6 oz of the TT" and you might be right, but I try to position a scope between optical/mechanical quality and weight for my rigs since all of my gear serves dual purpose as steel/hunting and for me personally, I find nothing wrong with the turrets of the ZP5, they are more than adequate for me to dial quickly and correctly and the MR4 is my favorite tree reticle though there are others I like. If I had a dedicated rifle to just competition or long range then I don't think I'd care either about the weight, in fact, I think my scope of choice for that would be the Revic because of the HUD even though it may not be as good optically as other top tier scopes.

Now, getting into Ultra Shorts I think more shooters are trying to "trim up" and I had so hoped the ZCO ZC420 would have been closer to 30oz, but 35oz is just within my threshold so it's not out of the question, but it's going to have to do a lot to beat out the K318i.
Click to expand...

I totally get where you're at. I just think it's amusing sometimes when I hear guys talking at the range with 18-20 lb long range set ups and they didn't buy a superior scope because it was 6 oz heavier than what they wanted.

For a mid to long range dual purpose set up I would totally agree the K318i is about as good as it gets overall. If it had been available when I had purchased my NF 4-16x42 I would have had a tough decision to make. Should be interesting to see how the 4-20 ZCO stacks up.

I actually fought the weight argument with myself recently on a 12.5 AR upper. Wanted a 1-8 and narrowed it down to the NF ATACR and the NX8 and decided for that purpose 6 oz meant a lot and chose the NX8.

ZCO if you're listening...
 
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#455
I had a chance to handle the ZCO scopes at SHOT and was really impressed with the 5-27X. The reticles are great, the illumination is well done, and the turrets feel nice. They knocked it out of the park and should be in the conversation if you are looking at the Tangent Theta. If these do drop down a little in price when the hype dies down, they are going to own the Tier 1 space if they can keep up with the demand and don't pull a Premier. The 4-20x was nice as well, but on the heavier bulky side just like the K318i. If I go with an ultra short, I want something that is <30 oz.
 
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#456
CSTactical said:
If you can buy them under $3k than you have a better dealer than ours... :cry:
Click to expand...
I don't think M5 meant new, I think he meant to say that by next year some shooters may be selling their ZCO's used to get something else, and the used price may be close to $3000. But as long as demand is high for these, I think even used prices will be pretty high and we'll only see a few hundred separating new from used. The good news is the warranty transfers to any owner which is a plus in resale value.
 
#457
M5NSX said:
All the excitement over this new optic is awesome! We get a lot of reviews from those that have to have the latest greatest paying full retail. Later this year or next when the hype dies down the rest of will get them for under $3,000 as some will decide they want something else or they are not moving off the retailers shelves. Patience!! For now my Tangent Theta 525, Schmitty’s and Kahles Optics will have to do. I’m sure I’ll eventually get one or two....
Click to expand...

I guess the rest of us suckers that don't mind paying for top tier equipment and supporting our community will have to suck it up so guys like you can have something to pick off the scrap heap.
 
#458
arm017 said:
Ive got a review coming for you guys; just about done with it.
Click to expand...
Any chance you can get a through the scope pic of the ZCO with illumination set to Green - I'm really curious how that looks, also let us know if the illumination is usable under bright sunny conditions. Thank you for doing this for the Hide by the way, it's nice to see the best of the best fighting it out and it will be good to hear what your opinions are.
 
#459
M5NSX said:
All the excitement over this new optic is awesome! We get a lot of reviews from those that have to have the latest greatest paying full retail. Later this year or next when the hype dies down the rest of will get them for under $3,000 as some will decide they want something else or they are not moving off the retailers shelves. Patience!! For now my Tangent Theta 525, Schmitty’s and Kahles Optics will have to do. I’m sure I’ll eventually get one or two....
Click to expand...

Meh, if I do sell one, I know who I won’t be selling it too now.....

Thanks for making a productive, worthwhile contribution to the forum.

FYI, you’re a fuckhead if you don’t see where I’m going with this.
 
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#460
Dthomas3523 said:
I don’t think anyone is putting the mk5 in a discussion with zco, kahles, Schmidt, TT, etc.

I wouldn’t put vortex in the convo either. Only reason it gets brough up is its weight and because it’s so widely used. But it’s definitely not in the same tier.
Click to expand...

I would be very interested as to why a MK5 isn’t in the same tier. What does this higher tier of scopes bring to the table that the “lower tier” scopes don’t?
 
#461
jbell said:
I would be very interested as to why a MK5 isn’t in the same tier. What does this higher tier of scopes bring to the table that the “lower tier” scopes don’t?
Click to expand...

Seriously?

So, your logic is leupold is selling an optic in the same tier, for half the price?

I’m not saying the mk5 isn’t a good optic, but it’s not in the same tier as Schmidt, kahles, zco, NF.
 
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#462
jbell said:
I would be very interested as to why a MK5 isn’t in the same tier. What does this higher tier of scopes bring to the table that the “lower tier” scopes don’t?
Click to expand...

Reputation and performance to back it up. It's hard to be behind the times for so long when it comes to demand, innovation, features, etc and then all of sudden hit the street with a product at the same price point as the guys that have been doing it right for years and expect to be on the same level.
 
#463
Not to start a pissing match but keep in mind you are talking about a scope that you haven’t tested yet. I have tested the MK5 against the other scopes you are putting in this “top tier” (that seems your basing off of price) and it will do everything they will. True I have only personally tested 2 MK5’s and they track every bit as good as my PMII’s and ATACR F1s have.

Remind me how many ZC scopes have you tested again?
 
#465
jbell said:
Not to start a pissing match but keep in mind you are talking about a scope that you haven’t tested yet. I have tested the MK5 against the other scopes you are putting in this “top tier” (that seems your basing off of price) and it will do everything they will. True I have only personally tested 2 MK5’s and they track every bit as good as my PMII’s and ATACR F1s have.

Remind me how many ZC scopes have you tested again?
Click to expand...

We have a few down here we are testing and I have owned a few mk5.

Along with:
Several schmidt
Several atacr
Several vortex
Minox
Several kahles
Several sigs
Tangent theta

And I’m sure I’m forgetting several others.

So, next question?
 
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#466
wjm308 said:
I don't think M5 meant new, I think he meant to say that by next year some shooters may be selling their ZCO's used to get something else, and the used price may be close to $3000. But as long as demand is high for these, I think even used prices will be pretty high and we'll only see a few hundred separating new from used. The good news is the warranty transfers to any owner which is a plus in resale value.
Click to expand...

Just from my personal experience of practically being able to focus full time on just ZCO alone, I don't think the desire for these scopes will go down anytime soon. I'm normally off Saturdays and I'm coming in to just deal with ZCO stuff.
 
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#468
@jbell
Dthomas3523 said:
Glass isn’t as good as the other optics mentioned. Turrets are metallic and sloppy comparatively.

CCH reticle is not that good. Other non horus reticles are lacking.

Good optic for the money. Not a tier one optic though
Click to expand...

This. Not to mention Used a 35mm tube for what good reason? Glass has CA, where TT and minox don’t. NF 7-35 good luck finding CA. Reticle selection while vast, doesn’t mean there are any very good ones. Sure they work; h59 works, tmr works, etc. but the other guys have better options. Illumination upcharge for what? Smallish FOV at the bottom end for what seems to be a more crossover focused optic.
 
#469
With regard to the Mark 5HD vs. ZCO or Tier 1 debate, here's my point of view, if you have an optic, any optic, and you feel it is on par with other more expensive optics then don't let anyone convince you otherwise. If the scope tracks true and you like the turrets, and feel the optics and reticle give you exactly what you need, then there is no reason to upgrade to a more expensive scope.

Sure, we can argue til the cows come home how this scope has this and this scope has that, but at the end of the day our goal is to hit what we aim at, and if you can do that and are happy with a scope that only costs $$$ then that is fantastic. The scopes today are getting so good, even the $1k class scopes, both optically and mechanically. It's getting harder to differentiate between some tiers as manufacturing and glass continue to progress. To my eyes, there are definitely nuances to the tier 1 scopes that I don't see in lower priced optics, but can others see those nuances or do they even care? Maybe, maybe not.

We (in general) are always looking for something that costs less but matches something that costs more, getting "more for your money" is something most would not pass up, but the reasons we think our brand B is just as good as brand A differ greatly and those differences are typically what we argue about.

This thread is about ZCO and it would be nice to keep the main focus on ZCO, I have no issue with comparing other scopes but those conversations might be best addressed in another thread.
 
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#470
wjm308 said:
Any chance you can get a through the scope pic of the ZCO with illumination set to Green - I'm really curious how that looks, also let us know if the illumination is usable under bright sunny conditions. Thank you for doing this for the Hide by the way, it's nice to see the best of the best fighting it out and it will be good to hear what your opinions are.
Click to expand...

I will try to get you the picture tonight
Comments: Red appears to be daylight bright. Very wide brightness control.
Green is shown at max power setting in a dark room. It will not be daylight bright.
images are at 15 and 27 power.
 

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#476
Dthomas3523 said:
So, next question?
Click to expand...

jbell said:
Oh, & please point out the specific problems you have found with the MK5s? I will definitely keep an eye out for it.
Click to expand...

I asked it right before you posted this...

I agree that this thread should not be derailed with talk of a different scope. I only mentioned the MK5 when it was stated that the ZC was only bettered by Kahles for low weight. I was not wanting to start a MK5 vs ZC discussion mainly because I have nothing to start forming an opinion on the ZC scopes, never seen one yet. But I find it laughable when I am told that the MK5 is not in the same tier as NF, Schmidt, Kahles, etc. I have owned of all of these scopes, they are all good and everyone of them have some flaws (mostly based on personal preference).

All I am asking for is a legitimate reason for this statement. I agree the turret feel may not be as pleasing to some as others, but that is preference. I also agree that Leupold has ALWAYS had crap for reticle choices, but a personal preference thing. Also some optics are brighter, have better color contrast, or a slightly better image quality than others but again that is a personal preference thing. None of these are limiting factors for the usability of a precision rifle scope, and all are subjective.

I just find it hilarious when people feel the need to jump on the knob of the next best thing or associate quality with excessively priced items. I am not trying to shit on or be a fan boy of ANY of the scopes mentioned, I love variety (which is why I have owned all but 2 scopes mentioned in this thread -the ZC and Sig-). I also love the free market make whatever you want and charge however much you want for it. R&D is not cheap which is the main reason for the difference in price of these scopes mentioned, small companies do not have the funds for R&D like the large companies (because they do not sell millions of dollars of inexpensive cheap to make product so they can then reinvest in R&D & customer support).

You do not need to justify wanting a specific feature that at the end of the day only gives you a warm and fuzzy to me, I pay extra for that all the time when I want it. But don't feed me a line of BULL SHIT like saying the MK5 isn't comparable with more expensive scopes without actually being able to site something other than because you don't like something about them, that is just retarded...
 
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#477
Where the freakin' facepalm smiley?!

Leupold MK5 discussion, and/or bickering over what you think does or does not constitute a "Tier-1" optic doesn't belong here. Go read the title of the thread again. This is a ZCO update thread. Let's keep it that way. You wanna go bicker over what makes a Tier-1 scope, or which scopes belong in that club, go start your own freakin' thread, eh?
 
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#478
MTETM said:
I will try to get you the picture tonight
Click to expand...
Thanks MT, sorry to keep asking for more, but any chance you could get a shot with an actual daytime target/image in the background, just curious how contrasty the green illumination is compared to the red in daylight situations. Next question is, how many think they would actually use green illumination over red and why?
 
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#479
wjm308 said:
Thanks MT, sorry to keep asking for more, but any chance you could get a shot with an actual daytime target/image in the background, just curious how contrasty the green illumination is compared to the red in daylight situations. Next question is, how many think they would actually use green illumination over red and why?
Click to expand...

I only use the green...Also have green in my NF. Not as harsh.

I will get more pics tomorrow. Can do background and targets.
 
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#480
jbell said:
All I am asking for is a legitimate reason for this statement. I agree the turret feel may not be as pleasing to some as others, but that is preference. I also agree that Leupold has ALWAYS had crap for reticle choices, but a personal preference thing. Also some optics are brighter, have better color contrast, or a slightly better image quality than others but again that is a personal preference thing. None of these are limiting factors for the usability of a precision rifle scope, and all are subjective.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this statement and if you'd like to start a new thread I would participate in the nuances of what qualifies for Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and how subjective reasoning plays a part in our perception. I think it would be an interesting dialogue and I'm sure full of heated discussions, but might be good to quantify because you might be thinking certain quality or features define Tier 1 while others might be thinking price determines Tier 1. It's important that we have a proper definition so we don't build up straw man arguments. For example, I tend to think of Tier 1 as scopes that have a street price of $3k or more, but that is my definition, I believe @koshkin (ILya) had a page where he had some definitions for some of these categories but unless the industry adopts the definition I think we'll always have to define what we mean.
 
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#481
jbell said:
I asked it right before you posted this...

I agree that this thread should not be derailed with talk of a different scope. I only mentioned the MK5 when it was stated that the ZC was only bettered by Kahles for low weight. I was not wanting to start a MK5 vs ZC discussion mainly because I have nothing to start forming an opinion on the ZC scopes, never seen one yet. But I find it laughable when I am told that the MK5 is not in the same tier as NF, Schmidt, Kahles, etc. I have owned of all of these scopes, they are all good and everyone of them have some flaws (mostly based on personal preference).

All I am asking for is a legitimate reason for this statement. I agree the turret feel may not be as pleasing to some as others, but that is preference. I also agree that Leupold has ALWAYS had crap for reticle choices, but a personal preference thing. Also some optics are brighter, have better color contrast, or a slightly better image quality than others but again that is a personal preference thing. None of these are limiting factors for the usability of a precision rifle scope, and all are subjective.

I just find it hilarious when people feel the need to jump on the knob of the next best thing or associate quality with excessively priced items. I am not trying to shit on or be a fan boy of ANY of the scopes mentioned, I love variety (which is why I have owned all but 2 scopes mentioned in this thread -the ZC and Sig-). I also love the free market make whatever you want and charge however much you want for it. R&D is not cheap which is the main reason for the difference in price of these scopes mentioned, small companies do not have the funds for R&D like the large companies (because they do not sell millions of dollars of inexpensive cheap to make product so they can then reinvest in R&D & customer support).

You do not need to justify wanting a specific feature that at the end of the day only gives you a warm and fuzzy to me, I pay extra for that all the time when I want it. But don't feed me a line of BULL SHIT like saying the MK5 isn't comparable with more expensive scopes without actually being able to site something other than because you don't like something about them, that is just retarded...
Click to expand...

The glass/coatings aren’t tier one, put them side by side.

The internal mechanisms are sloppy compared to the other optics.

Again, a good optic for the price. Not on Schmidt, kahles, NF level. And the TT is in another level from them. Thus far the zco is looking to be somewhere in between those.

If I told you a vortex PST gen 2 was as good as a mk5, you’d laugh about it. Same concept.

If someone says they are looking at a Schmidt, NF, or Kahles, quality. I’m not going to recommend a mk5. If they are looking at gen 2 razor, amg, etc, I’ll probably tell them to look at mk5.

The glass and mechanisms are a lower quality and thus represented by a lower price point.
 
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#482
Back on the ZCO front, has anyone from the Hide been to ZCO's facilities in Idaho? If I remember right, from the original ZCO thread, all the parts are manufactured in ZCO's plant in Austria but then shipped to their Idaho facility where they are assembled. It'd be great if someone like Frank or ILya could get a behind the scenes look. I realize that trade secrets don't want to be leaked and all that but I'm sure something could be arranged similar to what Frank did with Vortex a few years ago with the AMG and the tour ILya just went on at Burris for their XTR III line.
 
#483
I did not mean to derail this thread or even bring anything into it other than stating the ZC is not all that light weight, that's all. I am not interested in grouping scoped into tiers, I could really care less as long a the job gets done. I just am not a fan of people making unsubstantiated claims and felt the need to point it out. That is all...

I look forward to hearing more about these scopes when they get into more peoples hands and get used / tested in the real world. From what I have heard so far they sound pretty friggin' sweet!
 
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#484
wjm308 said:
all the parts are manufactured in ZCO's plant in Austria but then shipped to their Idaho facility where they are assembled.
Click to expand...

I have heard that also. I would be interested to know if the facility in Austria is owned by ZC or if the parts are being made for them by someone else. Not that it necessarily matters, it would just be interesting to know.
 
#486
Bravo6niner said:
I suck at phone pictures through the scope but here are some of the red and green illumination. The green is very appealing to me over the red.
Click to expand...
Don't feel bad, getting good through the scope images with any device is a royal pain! Thanks for sharing those, I was thinking the green might be really nice as well. How is the daytime illumination, bright enough to see with the sun out?
 
#487
wjm308 said:
Don't feel bad, getting good through the scope images with any device is a royal pain! Thanks for sharing those, I was thinking the green might be really nice as well. How is the daytime illumination, bright enough to see with the sun out?
Click to expand...


Honestly haven’t tried the illumination in the day time yet. Between snow/blizzard and work I haven’t messed with it much unfortunately. I’m going to go out on a limb and say yes it will be daytime visible just messing with it when the shop lights are on.
 
#491
Anyone know what the chances are I'll be able to zero the ZCO at 100 yards with the 16 mil Spuhr and 20 moa integral rail?
 
#496
blbennett1288 said:
Does anyone have a video of the ZCO turrets?

Past 300 yards is the ZCO parallax much like TT and Minox? Set it and forget it?
Click to expand...

The Infinite is marked out past 300. But I don't know if the functionality of it necessarily needs to be dialed there to be parallax free to "forget it" (like the TT).
zco tur.jpg
set it.png
 
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#497
Dthomas3523 said:
The glass/coatings aren’t tier one, put them side by side.

The internal mechanisms are sloppy compared to the other optics.

Again, a good optic for the price. Not on Schmidt, kahles, NF level. And the TT is in another level from them. Thus far the zco is looking to be somewhere in between those.

If I told you a vortex PST gen 2 was as good as a mk5, you’d laugh about it. Same concept.

If someone says they are looking at a Schmidt, NF, or Kahles, quality. I’m not going to recommend a mk5. If they are looking at gen 2 razor, amg, etc, I’ll probably tell them to look at mk5.

The glass and mechanisms are a lower quality and thus represented by a lower price point.
Click to expand...
Not laughing . Vortex Razor will hang with NF any day and some prefer them over .
So are NF not tier 1 and Vortex ? Leupold have not updated designs , glass is questionable compared to Vortex and NF , sloppy turrets . Yeah Tier 1 for sure .
 
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