Range Report Desert Tech HTI - 34" TS Customs 375CT - 352g CEB Range Report

[AIAW]

After only having this rifle in my possession for about 2 weeks, I believe it is a good time to start an early range report with my findings and discoveries so far.


My first outing last weekend was a combination of quick data gathering and function testing. Given data that I've obtained from here on the Hide mainly, I started load development at 127g of Retumbo for these 352g Cutting Edge solids. I am loading these .010 off of the lands, which works out perfect on the gas check location for these. OAL - 4.443". I can't provide ogive measurements because I do not have a comparator that these will fit into without bottoming out, even into the calipers themselves. Luckily, any CNC lathe turned bullet is going to be extremely accurate even measuring to the meplat.

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No pictures from last weeks trip, but I do have chrono data. I can attest that the groups from this load were acceptable at 1/2 MOA which is surprising because I literally pull Bertram brass out of the box - no sizing, no prep other than a slight chamfer/debur to prevent bullet shaving. I can tell you that the neck tension was heavy at nearly .007. There is a good reason for being forced to do this noted here. If the CCB shot is deleted, the numbers look much better - still surprising given the way the bullets felt being seated.

82F, sunny, 2400 DA, wind light 5-8 MPH 6 o'clock.

127g Retumbo - 4.443" OAL - FED. 215M Match - Bertram brass

Units velocity	fps	Notes:
Stats - Average	3006.52
Stats - Highest	3041.26
Stats - Lowest	2985.05
Stats - Ext. Spread	56.21
Stats - Std. Dev	21.75
Shot ID	V0
1	3041	CCB Shot
2	3013
4	2985
5	2996
6	2998

Now, to current day... Started the day out doing some group testing.

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First, I wanted to get an offset for using new unfired brass with the appropriate neck tension this time. Turns out, there is no offset. Once fired but sized and factory new brass behave identically on paper and via velocity.

Conditions were fair: 66F, cloudy with some drizzle, 1440 DA, wind gusting variable 10-15 MPH from 6-7 o'clock.

128g Retumbo - 4.443" OAL - FED. 215M Match - Bertram brass

Units velocity	fps	Notes
Stats - Average	3060.37
Stats - Highest	3066.8
Stats - Lowest	3051.3
Stats - Ext. Spread	15.49
Stats - Std. Dev	5.81
Shot ID	V0
1	3067	CCB Shot
2	3059
3	3063
4	3051
5	3062

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This is a really great node. The first CCB shot was low, the rest essentially tore a nice $27 hole. I believe this will become my go-to unless I can find a node around the 3100+ mark. I doubt that I would want to beat the brass up like that though. 3060 fps is a good speed, especially with that SD I can work with it. I will most likely attempt to clean this node up a bit by shifting a few tenth grains down. Notice the zero offset below the center red diamond - this is from a barrel removal/reinsertion from the first range trip - about .2 mils down and .1 mils right. Not bad in my opinion especially for such a heavy tube. I get similar results with my AXMC's.


As seen below, timing is everything they say and that applies strongly with interior ballistics (referencing barrel timing). Look what 1g higher does to the groups (even though the chrono data states stability). I've said this for years - don't solely trust the chrono data! I only grouped 5 of them - the rest I wanted run at distance. They were a tad sporadic at 1 mile.

Conditions were fair: 66F, cloudy with some drizzle, 1440 DA, wind gusting variable 10-15 MPH from 6 o'clock.

129g Retumbo - 4.443" OAL - FED. 215M Match - Bertram brass

Units velocity	fps
Stats - Average	3092
Stats - Highest	3107.5
Stats - Lowest	3074.86
Stats - Ext. Spread	32.64
Stats - Std. Dev	8.7
Shot ID	V0
1	3075
2	3084
3	3096
4	3089
5	3091
6	3091
7	3097
8	3096
9	3107
10	3093

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Brass/primers still look good and no ejector markings. No cupping, sticky bolt, etc.

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Thanks to orkan and secondofangle for giving me a few pointers to get running with. More updates to come when time permits to do a little more load development for a higher possible node. For now, I will enjoy the 128g node and test brass resiliency at that charge.

 

[orkan]

Great stuff there sir! I'm excited to see our customers getting out and putting our gear to use! We have quite a few people running this setup and have all achieved similar results. The best shooting 375's they own. The HTI with a TS Customs conversion is simply unrivaled in ELR performance.

 

[1J04]

Awesome stuff right there. Thx for pointing me to your report. You gotta be happy with those results so far. Keep up the good work.

 

[anaxagoras]

just curious, what press do you use for 375 CT? Do you need a 50bmg press? or will the cartridge fit in a co-ax?

 

[AIAW]

just curious, what press do you use for 375 CT? Do you need a 50bmg press? or will the cartridge fit in a co-ax?

Yes, you need a 50 BMG press. Most good dies are 1-1/2x12 threads, but you really need the ram stroke and leverage to size (and seat) the cartridge effectively. I use an RCBS AmmoMaster II with Whidden custom dies.


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OAL of a loaded 352g CuttingEdge MTAC (seated to the gas check) - 4.443" - it's a rather long cartridge overall.

 

[AIAW]

Well, here is what happens after 2 FL sizings and 3 firings...


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Son of a bitch. Not a thing abnormal before the case head separations. Accuracy was great, brass looked good (no ring around the web), rounds chambered perfectly, no stiff bolt lift after firing, primers are in good shape, no ejector markings, etc, etc... Luckily I don't think the chamber was scored by any of these. I still need to look at it closer though.

None of my full-length sizings have actually "bumped" the shoulder. It simply doesn't need it, so I have it set for 0.000 movement of the shoulder. Essentially I have the die set to size the neck-only. Of course to do this the case has to be ran entirely into the die, which does size the body - we all know this. What I have discovered particularly with this is that the die is moving the exact area above the web where the split occurred .004 versus a fired, un-sized case. That is a lot of brass working after every firing. A 128g charge should not cause case-head separations with only 3 firings on it - it's not even that hot of a charge overall and other than the above, no pressure signs. By the way, these are the only ones that showed signs and they were not consecutive. I fired a total of 20 rounds.

I'm going to look at a neck-only die for this, most likely a Viersco. Needlessly working the body/web every time like this is just insane.

secondofangle - You are FL sizing every time right? Do you know how much the area above the web is getting sized with your die?

 

[Fursniper]

Looks like time to move on to the Peterson brass.......

 

[AIAW]

Yeah, I think the Bertram will work good once I start neck-sizing only. I will admit though, that Peterson brass looks like some quality stuff at first glance.

I could also have a custom die made, which I am inclined to do regardless if the neck-sizing creates any unwanted side-effects (not expecting any).

 

[steve123]

I remember when about 10 years ago the Jamison brass I just paid $2 for was ruined in 1 firing with 130 grains of Retumbo - Painful. Then the two star came out and lasted 2-3 firings. Then bought some Bertram and the necks were thinner so when sized it'd hardly hold a bullet. Welcome to cheytacville.

 

[AIAW]

I remember when about 10 years ago the Jamison brass I just paid $2 for was ruined in 1 firing with 130 grains of Retumbo - Painful. Then the two star came out and lasted 2-3 firings. Then bought some Bertram and the necks were thinner so when sized it'd hardly hold a bullet. Welcome to cheytacville.

Ugh, don't tell me that. These were $3 a piece - if I get 2 firings off of them that's going to be a problem! This Bertram brass does seem awful thin compared to Jamison though.

If I could take -.004" ID out of the bottom .5" of the die I think it would work great. Unfortunately there is no accurate way to do that. I'm going to have to have a custom die made for body/shoulder bumping and stick with neck-sizing as much as possible. Re-chambering fired brass is no issue as it barely even grows - that damn web area though. Massacred by the die.

 

[oinco]

Thanks for the range report! I am looking forward to seeing what groups these can do for you at distance- hope the brass challenge is solved- I would think Whidden would easily be able to help you out in fitting your die to your chamber more closely.

 

[steve123]

Ugh, don't tell me that. These were $3 a piece - if I get 2 firings off of them that's going to be a problem! This Bertram brass does seem awful thin compared to Jamison though.

If I could take -.004" ID out of the bottom .5" of the die I think it would work great. Unfortunately there is no accurate way to do that. I'm going to have to have a custom die made for body/shoulder bumping and stick with neck-sizing as much as possible. Re-chambering fired brass is no issue as it barely even grows - that damn web area though. Massacred by the die.

Just rambling on, cheytacville.

Ya, my dies were custom lawton dies too, fit the jamison perfectly. Something was wrong with my firing pin system though because I'd get hangfires here and there/using 215M. Or others on the internet got them too but wouldn't say so. Oh and when I first got the rifle the only solid bullet supply at the time went under so here I had this $4000 rifle and stuck shooting 260 gr Nosler's lol. A year later the 350gr Hooker tactical solids came out, finally I could get to it.

Gun hated 350 SMK's for whatever reason. Lehigh's went to sh!T at about a mile. Hookers were unreal, man did they sail.

Did shoot a 5" 3 shot group at 2050Y/ just lucky, with the Hookers and got a mostly 18" group at 2500Y, I say mostly because we missed the whole steel due to wind but the vertical was there.

Funnest thing was the 375 tore a friend's steel man silhouette right off the welds at 1300Y, energy -we all had a good laugh.

 

[AIAW]

Just rambling on, cheytacville.

Ya, my dies were custom lawton dies too, fit the jamison perfectly. Something was wrong with my firing pin system though because I'd get hangfires here and there/using 215M. Or others on the internet got them too but wouldn't say so. Oh and when I first got the rifle the only solid bullet supply at the time went under so here I had this $4000 rifle and stuck shooting 260 gr Nosler's lol. A year later the 350gr Hooker tactical solids came out, finally I could get to it.

Gun hated 350 SMK's for whatever reason. Lehigh's went to sh!T at about a mile. Hookers were unreal, man did they sail.

Did shoot a 5" 3 shot group at 2050Y/ just lucky, with the Hookers and got a mostly 18" group at 2500Y, I say mostly because we missed the whole steel due to wind but the vertical was there.

Funnest thing was the 375 tore a friend's steel man silhouette right off the welds at 1300Y, energy -we all had a good laugh.

Hehe, nothing wrong with rambling!

I had 3 consecutive hits on a 15"x17" plate at 1766 yards with it last weekend in 7-12 MPH variable winds. I can't stretch it out to 2K and beyond unless the range is quiet due to the direction of fire. The rifle itself shoots - just gotta get this brass situation under control.

I'm going to send Whidden some brass to cook me up a custom body-only die. I'm also going to buy the neck-only bushing die from Viersco also.

In the interim I might try to take .003 out of the bottom .5" of my current die. Hell, I can't make it any worse! It needs to basically not size the base at all.

Hehe, yeah I could image that put a hurt on that target that you hit. I did hit a Larue electronic popper in the face the other day at about 730 yards and the impact lifted the base-plate off of the ground! I don't think I have seen a Larue popper lay down so quickly, hahaha! Left a big shiny copper splatter on the entire head area after it (luckily) ratcheted back upright. It definitely felt the hate. I was just feeling it at the time... The Accuracy 1st target a 1766 still has some very fierce movement to it when hit in the head or body.

 

[steve123]

Fun, fun, man, glad you are enjoying it! It is cool knocking stuff with the 375. At times I miss it.

Got a Surgeon XL with mag bolt face and am tempted to do a 375 Ruger with a 10 twist. It'd be kinda slow but fun to smack the steel with.

 

[AIAW]

Sent brass off to Whidden today. It's going into the back of the safe for a little bit until I receive the new dies. Probably 4-8 weeks unfortunately.

 

[secondofangle]

Jamison sucks but I really like Bertram and Peterson. I honestly prefer the Bertram bc 2 gr more capacity

I always FL size big magnums bc not bumping shoulder can cause false pressure signs. I bump .002 on Viersco FL dies I dont think anybody even makes 375 neck dies. You can reduce the tension by using a solid lanolin lube on the projectiles.

My guess is you have bad brass batch or there is a chamber/headspace issue. Have you inspected it? What reamer does TS customs use?

Either that or something were not thinking about. Did you measure case length bt firings? Is it growing? What lube you using for sizing?

Case head separations are most likely a headspace issue NOT a pressure issue. Id investigate that chamber first. Call TS customs and discuss.

Another thought is I have Bertram with 12 firings going steong with 132 Retumbo. i get 3075 ish. If you have 5" more of barrel, you should get 100-125 fpa more than I get. if you found a higher node like your commonly found 3060 node you could be pushing 3200fps. Personally I would not run a linger barrel with a reduced load.

 

[AIAW]

Jamison sucks but I really like Bertram and Peterson. I honestly prefer the Bertram bc 2 gr more capacity

I always FL size big magnums bc not bumping shoulder can cause false pressure signs. I bump .002 on Viersco FL dies I dont think anybody even makes 375 neck dies. You can reduce the tension by using a solid lanolin lube on the projectiles.

My guess is you have bad brass batch or there is a chamber/headspace issue. Have you inspected it? What reamer does TS customs use?

Either that or something were not thinking about. Did you measure case length bt firings? Is it growing? What lube you using for sizing?

Case head separations are most likely a headspace issue NOT a pressure issue. Id investigate that chamber first. Call TS customs and discuss.

Another thought is I have Bertram with 12 firings going steong with 132 Retumbo. i get 3075 ish. If you have 5" more of barrel, you should get 100-125 fpa more than I get. if you found a higher node like your commonly found 3060 node you could be pushing 3200fps. Personally I would not run a linger barrel with a reduced load.

Hey! It could very well be bad brass. It's supposed to be the good stuff - not the malformed crap. The headspace is spot on though - new brass versus fired grows less than .006 (using comparator). All fired cases are very uniform in measurements. No other visual indicators of typical headspace issues. I also use Imperial Case Wax to size. They then get throughly cleaned afterwards.

I don't think it's a pressure issue at all - it's the FL die pushing the web area back .004 with each sizing. It's working the area right where they split. It shouldn't be working that area to that degree... .004 is a lot in that area.

Yeah, I'm was still in the middle of load development sort of - this brass/die thing has sort of hampered my progress. I do plan on testing with increased charges. I have sent Whidden 3 pieces of fired brass to make a custom die from, so when that is done I will be able to continue. 4-8 week turnaround on those - sucks! The die that I have now is a reamer-cut die - evidently it is a bit off! I honestly won't be able to make a sure-fire determination on anything until I can get a sizing die that I can "trust" if you know what I mean.

I am glad you chimed in though - you have far more experience with this cartridge than I do. I have tried to e-mail David Viers three times in two weeks to have him supply me with custom dies. There comes a point where I said fuck it - if someone is that difficult to get in touch with and doesn't have any other method of contact outside of e-mail then evidently they are busy enough that they do not need my business.