What AR15 cartridge is a worthwhile step up from 5.56?
- Thread starter Franko
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Don't take this the wrong way ,as I own a few Garands and love shooting them . However given their age and near obsolete ammunition ( as a Military round goes ) I'd opt for a more common caliber as in .308 or 6.5CM , PRC caliber or 300 Win mag so as to really have something with Oomph as you put it . AR 15- AR10 platforms are Great building foundations and offer versatility like NO other, IMO .
garands will take .308 with the simple drop-in of the navy sleeve and a set-screw feed ramp. Both conversion parts easily available. don’t even need different clips.
308 Navy sleeve - CDVS
Shop Combat Disabled Veterans' Surplus for 308 Navy sleeve - CDVS.
www.cdvs.us
Spacer Block for .308 Cal., Steel, M1 Garand
Your Source for Service Rifles: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14 / M1A & AR Types
www.fulton-armory.com
or get fulton to build a dedicated .308 tanker length one
It completely depends on the role you want it to fill. Hunting or target shooting at possible longer distances? I like 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC. Hunting at 200yds and in, or if I'm wanting a good suppressor host? I like 300 blackout. Are you hunting, but restricted to straight wall cartridges? I'd choose 450 Bushmaster.
garands will take .308 with the simple drop-in of the navy sleeve and a set-screw feed ramp. Both conversion parts easily available. don’t even need different clips.
308 Navy sleeve - CDVS
Shop Combat Disabled Veterans' Surplus for 308 Navy sleeve - CDVS.www.cdvs.us
Spacer Block for .308 Cal., Steel, M1 Garand
Your Source for Service Rifles: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14 / M1A & AR Typeswww.fulton-armory.com
or get fulton to build a dedicated .308 tanker length one
WHY , what would I do with MY M14's ??.
I have a 6creed built in an ar10 that shoots lights out to 1k yards easy. It’s now my go to pred gun. With a ar15 lower I would love to try the 6arc.
I had a 300bo and truly hated it for numerous reasons. I ended up selling it. I do not like the 300bo as I don’t see it fitting in anywhere in my life for any purpose.
I had a 300bo and truly hated it for numerous reasons. I ended up selling it. I do not like the 300bo as I don’t see it fitting in anywhere in my life for any purpose.
not really posted for you, mostly for OP if they go with the garand but want .308 as your points about low-pressure .30-06 are very valid
Fulton will make them for the asking, same with the M14.
also .243 or most other .308 derivatives as far as I know, you just have to supply them the base receiver
yes thats pretty much why I use the 708 if I really want to but a hurt to some critter of deer size. have taken deer with the 243 but always had to blood trail them, piff ,even the 762X39 put them down quicker
5.56 is plenty capable out to any possible range that would be justifiable defense. 77 TMK for soft targets,
or 62/70gr TSX or Speer Gold Dot if you think you might need to shoot through a car
Edit: especially if you’re stuck with prebans.
BUT, if you have some Grendel, 6.8SPC, or 350 Legend (for use with 6 Max) mags from freedom week, go wild and have fun. I still think 5.56 is the most logical choice though, given its abundance, capability and logistics.
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While I don't disagree with you about the round, does California even have justifiable defense?
CA actually has a Castle Doctrine which makes defending your home a fairly sane option. So a small silver lining in the otherwise anti-gun clouds in CA.
Neither have I but tons of AR10 platform caliber choices .
MY personal opinion is ; 30-06 is gonna be history sooner than later ,as cartridge development goes it's decades past life span . I was very fortunate to have acquired K's of 7.62X63 aka Military 30-06 once fired cases .
Although they were left to the weather for 65-70 years before I obtained them . Fortunately they have proven reusable and robust cases . Most were LC but some SL from WW ll 1942-43 and 52-56 Korean war vintage . I did have at one time nearly unlimited access to 1962-68 Match ammo and also saved some of those LC cases . That was until USMC Camp Pendelton decided to burn Tons of stored ammo and NOT sell surplus under Clinton !. I watched semi after semi dispose of pallets of Match ammo among all sorts of ordnance and burned . So much it took #3 D8's a week to make the ditch .
MY Garands have not been kind to commercial cases ,as in extraction after #5-7 firings lips rims are torn off .
Tomorrow I run another reloading ( the 40 Th. ) on those LC cases and I DO restore ductility to the neck and shoulder after every 4 Th. firing . So far SO GOOD , haven't lost a single case and primer pockets remain in tact . MY goal is #50 reloads all within 1 grain of Max. charge ,so as to prove OLD Military brass is Stout and worth retaining . It's becoming scarcer to obtain as time marches forward .
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6arc is probally the optimal small frame cartridge.
Can use high heavy for caliber bc 6mm bullets and get them fast enough they don't have a big bc penalty like the 6.5 grendel. The 6 arc has made the spc and 6.5 grendel obsolete.
22 arc would be the other one. To check out. Pushing a 85-90 grain high bc bullet over 3000 fps.
And for strait wall...350 legend is a great deer round to 250.
Can use high heavy for caliber bc 6mm bullets and get them fast enough they don't have a big bc penalty like the 6.5 grendel. The 6 arc has made the spc and 6.5 grendel obsolete.
22 arc would be the other one. To check out. Pushing a 85-90 grain high bc bullet over 3000 fps.
And for strait wall...350 legend is a great deer round to 250.
Nah. 6ARC is very cool and shoots great, but it doesn't make anything obsolete.
Grendel factory brass ammo is out there at $0.80/rd ($0.75/rd when the AAC ammo is in stock), which is 25% cheaper than 6ARC. If PSA gets around to making steel cased Grendel ammo, prices will drop even further.
If you want BC and velocity in Grendel, shoot the Hornady 100gr ELD-VT ammo or load those same bullets on your own. Honestly, if you already own a Grendel rifle, there's no pressing need to get into 6ARC unless you need that extra 5" of wind call margin at 1000 yards...
You would be wrong.
6.5Grendel is anemic. Its WAY to slow to and has to shoot light for caliber/low BC bullets. Compared to older legacy shit its a good option, but the 6 ARC absolutely destroys it. Higher velocity, almost to 6 BR speeds while being able to shoot HEAVY for caliber high BC bullets that best anything you are pushing out of the 6.5 Grendel.
You essentially have the same case capacity but are pushing a MUCH more efficient bullet.
If you already own a grendel the best thing you can do is replace the barrel and start shooting something that is not completely cucked.
Hornady bullets are dogshit and they have shitty BC variance when they arent blowing up. A 105 or 109 Hybrid will smoke the piss out of it, with less recoil, will shoot flatter and destroy it in wind deflection. Don't believe me, go run them all in BC using realistic velocities.
Make one a Franken14. 2500 fps with M118 LRs. With the Salmon River Solutions 5 port Ti brake reduced recoil, shooting prone at rattle battle pace is a lot more fun compared to full blown standard 14.
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The 6ARC shoulder was moved back .030" to seat 105gr class bullets. It trades velocity for efficient bullets. It still has a 52kPSI pressure ceiling in an AR-15 platform. There are 6.5 caliber bullets available that bring Grendel well within the performance of 6ARC in an AR-15.
Don’t worry about him. He can’t live without hyperbole.
Really depends what you want to use it for. If you want something ballisticly supressor the 22 arc is where it is at. But there are better rounds for different applications. Larger game hunting with in 300 yards would definitely be better to go with one of the other larger options. They are all decent. Ammo availability is what you should really look at. Unless you reload. Then it really doesn't matter.
Yea I owned a Grendel for years and used to hunt with it and shoot it out to about 1K on steel. Sold it last year to someone on this site.
I have shot a bunch of 6ARC guns in the last year and am in the process of building one now. Just waiting for some hard to find parts to come in stock.
The 6 ARC rifles out now like the Geissele GFR will just walk circles around it. You basically get a 6BR in a small frame AR, throwing super high performing bullets right at the lower end of the velocity range of a 6BR. So you get a high case fill round using something like varget or N140 that is super consistent. Run the numbers for a 105/109 hybrid at 2700 and a 130 AR hybrid at 2250-2300 fps.
You will also do it with significantly less recoil.
Grendel vs 6Arc which one is better kind of depends on what you’re trying to do. in a pure range and target scenario 6 Arc takes the crown, but hunting it becomes murkier depending on the types of specific game being targeted and the expected shot ranges, Grendel has some advantages as a good option if you’re trying to have a versatile farm gun / flexible hunting rifle that still has sufficient bullet mass to deal with something heavier like hogs. Not saying 6 Arc won’t work, but probably not as easily.
Grendel still has legs as an option in platforms where it’s easier to retrofit from 7.62x39 to grendel than it is 6 Arc because of feed geometry (AK, SKS, VZ58)
(Yes I’ve seen a 6.5G sks and it was hilariously fun)
Grendel still has legs as an option in platforms where it’s easier to retrofit from 7.62x39 to grendel than it is 6 Arc because of feed geometry (AK, SKS, VZ58)
(Yes I’ve seen a 6.5G sks and it was hilariously fun)
I shot 2 PRS matches this Spring, both with gas gun, both matches same venue and same general target locations and difficulties. 1st time I ran 20" 6.5 Grendel (OdinWorks) and Hornady Black 123gr. 2d time I ran 18" 6 ARC (Proof SS) and Hornady Black 108gr. I noticed a bit of wind-bucking bonus on the ARC but the Grendel did not suck. Targets went out to 1050-1070yds for longest of the day. Many between 600 and 900 -- the range where you'd expect ARC to show its edge. Neither rifle is running hand-loaded optimized loads. My experience from those two situations -- small, but not massive, advantage to ARC with factory loads.
I think you'd find LRRPF52 has talked about hand-loading the 6.5 Grendel to a point where the 6 ARC advantages are very small.
I think you'd find LRRPF52 has talked about hand-loading the 6.5 Grendel to a point where the 6 ARC advantages are very small.
You have to compare apples to apples. You can hotrod either of them past their saftey envelopes. There is no bullet that works in the 6.5grendel that has a higher or more consistent BC than a 109 hybrid. You also have to account it's traveling 3-400 fps slower. So you get better sectional density bullets that retain more energy at range. You get to use the best 6mm bullets vs a 6.5 grendel that is stuck using some of the worst 6.5mm bullets. It's 6.5cm vs .308 all over again.
6ARC with 108ELDM, loaded to 52kPSI, is about 150fps to 200fps slower than 6.5G with 107SMK/TMK loaded to 52kPSI. 6ARC has substantially less case capacity when seating ELDM to magazine length. 109Hyb is approximately the same as ELDM. Grendel based cartridges in the AR-15 platform are always a compromise.
Problem is putting effective holes in something like hogs isn't a pure energy problem. Bullet construction matters. I was of the same school of thought as you that "mo energy is mo betta" until about my second hog hunt, and I could see the clear differences in effect from different bullet constructions.
for hogs, you need something with a solid base that doesn't shed its energy as fast, which means mass becomes a more important terminal ballistic factor than the velocity component, and why ion-bonded soft points with a solid copper base do some of the best work on pigs.
for softer game and varmints, the crown absolutely goes to 6Arc, but grendel has bullet options that 6Arc simply can't match for deep penetration through thick hide.
That's an interesting assertion, I haven't seen those velocities for Grendel in the load books or my experience loading for both. Can you post what actual load/MV/barrel length you based this on for both?
Btw, the 108 ELD is often not mag constrained in the ARC, I hit the lands under mag length in both of mine, and iirc factory loads come in the 2.245" range.
Probably not in our lifetimes, some of the wildcats like 280 are definitely on the way out though.
6ARC 26.8gr A2520/2560/20"
6.5G 30.9gr A2520/2720/20"
You can push both harder but you exceed 52kPSI. There are obviously other powder options too but the capacity doesn't change. 107 TMK/SMK, and the new ELD-VT put 6.5G easily within the performance of 6ARC without exceeding max chamber pressure. The trend in 6.5G has been heavier bullets when the performance envelope was really lighter TMK (prior to ELD-VT). 6ARC doesn't make much sense if you're handloading. 107 class 6.5mm hangs with the heavy-for-class 105 6mm while 22ARC outperforms both (at longer ranges, wind and drop).
I think @LRRPF52 is in the process of testing loads and ironing everything out before he posts data, but I’m pretty sure he said he would follow up when the information is ready to share (I’m not privy to any of it —I’ve just been following this thread and similar ones).
Yeah, that's a fairly slow ARC load, here is the chrono data for Factory 108gr ELD and my 103gr ELDx load (under book max) in my 18" gas gun.
It's a slow 6.5G load too. There isn't anything magical about 6ARC. Pressure equals velocity, if you don't care about the 52kPSI ceiling you load them both to the moon.
Kind of, area under the pressure curve is correlated to velocity more so than just peak MAP. Given that the powder selections on the market are finite it means some cartridges might have a more optimal powder available in terms of burn rate, energy density and volumetric density. LVR and CFE223 are pretty perfect for getting max performance out of the ARC and they're probably pretty good, if not as ideal for the Grendel as well.
In case it wasn't clear, the chrono'd loads above are the Factory 108gr and an under book-max hand load, so no ARC magic there, and no bolt gun only loads. I do suspect though that it would take a magical or +P+ Grendel load to beat those velocities by 200 fps as suggested, but I'm all for seeing some chrono data that suggests otherwise.
When I started shooting Grendel, I ran into all kinds of claims online about crazy velocities way above anything you'd see in the load books, the common theme turned out to be that they were all way over book loads, and there wasn't really any magic to be had. I have mostly stayed in the 120gr to 129gr range with my Grendel loads, using 8208, AR-Comp (my preferred powder), H4895 and CFE223. Nothing wrong with it, but I do think the ARC delivers more optimal velocities with a wider range of common 6mm bullets than the Grendel does with 6.5mm bullets, and I prefer it for most uses.
I've been shooting deer/yotes with a 12.5" 6.8 for years, puts them in the dirt. I've had a version of the 6.5g that ran and shot well just didn't use it much so sold that off.
If I were looking for an all around use AR15, it would be one of those. 6arc would be a close 3rd once it has been around longer and proven reliable.
If I were looking for an all around use AR15, it would be one of those. 6arc would be a close 3rd once it has been around longer and proven reliable.
The cartridge itself has proven reliable, when in rifles properly made for it. a lot of folks forget the origin of 6Arc was for a DoD contract that meant passing the required reliability minimums. and all that happened before it ever became a civilian market item.
I haven't read that in this thread.I always wonder why people lean on the 100g eldvt when saying the grendel can out perform the ARC. When there is a 6mm 80g eldvt with a higher BC.
The new comers always go straight to the heavies. 87VLD, 95VLD, or that ELDVT would be a better application for ARC.
I'm seeing all the same types of velocity claims with ARC as we saw with Grendel. I know that's a factory load, that doesn't mean it is within the 52kPSI spec. Grendel and ARC have serious limitations, much like when Grendel was new it's going to take time before we see what happens when they are exceeded. In the mean time, it is good to have choices and I am in no way telling you what to like or dislike.
I think Grendel is still viable if someone handloads and is careful with bullet choice. Coincidentally, that is how I feel about Grendel in general anyway. The factory options have always been mediocre. I think there is another way with 6mm that isn't ARC...
The other day I read someone say they thought around 90g was the sweet spot for the 6 max. I was thinking probably the same for the 6 arc. I like the 90 TGK and have some 95 smk to try. I have heard a couole people talk about breaking bolts. I assume that is loading it too hot. I assume a lot of people are.
I should have been more specific as to obsolete . As in a Military cartridge and thus inexpensive quality cases availability . That was MY original thought but failed to type it out . 30-06 is a great hunting round ,although I've Never used it as such but 100's of K's have sworn by it nearing 10 decades now .
Just too many more efficient cartridges now days and less and less Rifle manufacturers offerings . IMO .
Yeah, there are a lot of good lighter options, hunting bullet wise as well if folks are so inclined. I really like how the 103gr ELDx and 100gr TGK shoot, but did some load work with 80gr CX, 90gr TGK and 95gr SST as well.
Another barrel, bolt and mag has you up and running with a 6.8 or 6.5, what is a properly made 6arc?
Not for nothing, but every bit of publicly available load date says your factory 108ELDM ammo is over 52kPSI. Hornady doesn't use LVR in their factory ammo but it appears to be the closest analog I can find.
similarly, for 6ARC, "Another barrel, bolt and mag has you up and running" with a 6ARC.
barrels available from Faxon, BA, Rainier, Shaw, X-caliber, Craddock, and others.
bolt is a 6.5G Type 2.
mags from C-Products, ASC, E-Lander, but it that's too Walmart for your tastes, there's Geiselle 6ARC mags.
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