So go shoot a 9mm at 1000 like Jerry did. Just as good as a 6.5 Creedmoor too with that logic. LOL
Why the Controversey over Creedmoor 6.5?
- Thread starter river251
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has no one else noticed OP starts some cajun as fuck threads then peaces out?
Thats not what I said. I'm not gonna take the 30 minutes to watch the video but my recollection is that Hornady had bad reamer specs. If you can't verify with the guys who designed the cartridge, who are you gonna verify with.
Sounds very much like the growing pains of the 224 Valkyrie. Lots of finger pointing and the smith gets stuck holding the bag. Gunsmiths are expected to stand behind their work, and if you were pulling barrels to rework chambers I imagine you would be upset as well.
Funny thing is, I'm not on the old man's side, I love the 6.5 CM. I'm simply stating that perspective is everything. Its like opinions, everybody has one.
Why do you think I meant I would be defending my ranch against the government? If the government is still working, then I would not have defend myself against bad actors. If it falls apart, I think there will be a lot of opporunists who don't care about what they do to get what they want.
If target bullets fall apart when they hit a living target, and don't penetrate, that would seem to be a problem. If you have evidence or a good counterargument, that is why I asked the question.
Colorado:
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Alaska:
Sniper's Hide Precision Rifle Training — Treadproof Academy
treadproof.com
Thanks MCHOG.
Hornady has staked their reputation on it,
Who would you put your trust in, Hornady as a company, or some old idiot trying to be a Youtube Hero.
Ever hear of a 6.5x55, the bullet is the same and they shot the fuck out of living things all day, same with 243 like said above, the military has been using 6.5 variants slaying for years now,
Stop listening to idiots who don't matter, everyone owns a camera, it's super easy to stand in front of it spout nonsense and build a following of lemmings, doesn't take much these days. In fact the more controversial the more hits, then people start to believe because they think the hits mean agreement and not people laughing at the clown shoes.
Who would you put your trust in, Hornady as a company, or some old idiot trying to be a Youtube Hero.
Ever hear of a 6.5x55, the bullet is the same and they shot the fuck out of living things all day, same with 243 like said above, the military has been using 6.5 variants slaying for years now,
Stop listening to idiots who don't matter, everyone owns a camera, it's super easy to stand in front of it spout nonsense and build a following of lemmings, doesn't take much these days. In fact the more controversial the more hits, then people start to believe because they think the hits mean agreement and not people laughing at the clown shoes.
The points made in the first video was that target bullets are not made to kill people or animals. That's why I asked here, looking for some hard data/info about it (still looking).
Targets bullets kill just as well,
Shot placement, that is what kills shit.
Hell a Sierra Match King is a Target bullet, that is used in the military ammo.
I can go get images all day of target bullet kills, I know one guy alone that has 100s of them.
Shot placement, that is what kills shit.
Hell a Sierra Match King is a Target bullet, that is used in the military ammo.
I can go get images all day of target bullet kills, I know one guy alone that has 100s of them.
Want to go stand at 1000 yards and catch a ELD-M in the chest? I don't. As for hunting, use the right bullet and it will do the intended job like any caliber.
I would stand in front of Tony, but not you Rob...
Betting he had a bad reamer. Not specs. We had the first 6.5s built by GAP and they had to get the reamer in and those rifles all shot great. That was one of the first reamers. There was no initial issue. He had an issue then cried on youtube.
Probably.
Obviously that’s not necessarily a cartridge problem.
Maybe his reamer source had a hangover the day it was ground.
Maybe he put his own spin on it and it shat on him.
I’d like to see the specs of the troublesome reamer.
Bullet selection/application has little to do with the chambering aside from the one aspect that Shelby apparently forgot which is that for long range bullets you need to throat it out accordingly. His short throat reamer is the reason he was jamming creed ammo, not the chambering as a whole.
Does an iPhone 6 not go into landscape? Or do you hang your TV vertically?
I killed 2 whitetail this past season with 140 ELDMs. First one I completely severed the aorta. He dropped. Not like a spine shot. It was completely lights out.
But, it was a .260 not a wimpy crudmore.
But, it was a .260 not a wimpy crudmore.
Boy that extra half a grain of case capacity did wonders didn't it? lolI killed 2 whitetail this past season with 140 ELDMs. First one I completely severed the aorta. He dropped. Not like a spine shot. It was completely lights out.
But, it was a .260 not a wimpy crudmore.
Berger was using target bullets for hunting and live fire for literally decades before it was cool. The 6.5 vs .308 horse is just a skeleton at this point and yet we're still beating it... Spoiler alert, 6.5 won. The reason? Ballistics are better, ammo availability is pretty much no longer an issue, the bullet carries more energy past 200 or 300 yards, etc. The only area where 308 edges 6.5 is barrel life. 6.5 lasts somewhere in the ballpark of 2k rounds and 308 usually lasts a little longer. Not really a deal breaker when you get better everything else. 308 can do it, but it's not quite as user friendly. The issues he talks about in the video have been ironed out for a good decade now and the competition community is a good example of that. Everybody uses 6mm now, but a couple years ago everyone was shooting the 6.5 cm or something similar.
Get a 308 to start. You will have more lessons to learn to be good at this. The 6.5 allows for much less experience to look good. By the time your considering a barrel for the 308 you should be able to read wind, manage recoil properly and know what you need to spend your money on. The 6.5 allows you to cheat on your wind reading or even pay attention to it if you are shooting 2moa targets.
The other option is to buy both. When I was 17 my CO said at what you earn buying a rifle ,pistol or shotgun a year every year would be the best retirement plan you can make. Quality gains value as it ages.
The other option is to buy both. When I was 17 my CO said at what you earn buying a rifle ,pistol or shotgun a year every year would be the best retirement plan you can make. Quality gains value as it ages.
Simply, there is no 6.5 Creed controversy; only haters and those skeptical of immersion marketing.
Gunsmiths and gun builders are like any other craft in that there are good ones, and those who just have the shingle hanging out.
Gunsmiths and gun builders are like any other craft in that there are good ones, and those who just have the shingle hanging out.
Grin....!
Knowing how to shoot, and when to shoot is 99% of killing critters, or any other thing for that matter.
Wrong. The cartridge/chamber dimensions have not changed from the SAAMI intro since... it was introduced to SAAMI. More than likely the reamer maker F'd up mister Selby's reamers.
Selby claims .007" thou variance in ammo/case headspace-- look at the SAAMI Print and tell me how much allowable headspace variance there is on ammo. (Spoiler alert: .007").
Selby claims Hornady isn't making their own brass because the newer stuff has the anneal oxidization acid washed off. Says they're not annealing their brass anymore-- you can't make bottleneck rifle brass without 2-4 annealing cycles through the draws. Selby is drawing conclusions off of half-cocked info.
Literally every point the guy brings up in that video is displayed with muddled information or is outright wrong.
So what's the controversy with the 6.5 creedmoor? Whatever people who know less than they should talk about want to make up.
Yeah that brass claim is laughable. All the brass is annealed.
the real gunsmith is right, you should get into prs with a 300 weatherby.
kids these days and their damned creemires
kids these days and their damned creemires
2010 called...they want their thread back...
M118 is a target round and I know from personal experience it smacks the hell out of Two legged jihadis. I'm sure it will do the same to looters. I also think my 140 grain Hornady eld would make a nice dent
God, i can’t wait for everyone to go back to work.
Just because it’s not their primary purpose doesn’t mean they don’t do it very very well. The data you’re going to find is that they kill great on most live targets.
At this point you’re getting into a completely different discussion though. There’s a shit ton of both target oriented and terminal performance oriented bullets in both calibers, and there’s not a bullet out there for a .308win that a 6.5cm bullet can’t also do. .308 AP is easier to come by, but AP bullets aren’t exactly renowned for being accurate at long ranges, and a .308win isn’t going to get you AP performance against much of anything at distance.
Your list of priority should look more like this:
1. Having ammo to actually shoot
doesn’t matter what wonder cartridge you’ve got if you can’t shoot it
2. Being able to hit your target
Doesn’t matter what magic bullet you’ve got in your cartridge if you can’t hit anything with it
3. The terminal performance of your bullet
Only after you’ve actually shot and hit something can your bullet do any work.
For your stated purpose of shooting in defense of your ranch out to distance, the 6.5cm is the better cartridge. There’s a reason military snipers have been moving to 6.5mm rounds, it’s because you significantly increase your hit probably with no loss in terminal effect.
The only argument you could make against doing a 6.5cm is if you had a massively better supply of .308 (see the order of the list), but with the availability of 6.5cm that’s not the case.
All said specifically for your purpose, an AR10 chambered in 6.5cm would be the best solution.
I’ll even run a scenario for you: we’ll pick the Sierra tipped matchking as our bullet because the terminal effects of its non tipped predecessor are very well documented, and the tipped version is even more potent, with a minimum reliable fragmentation velocity of 1700-1800fps. Both velocity numbers will be close to what a 20” barrel will produce.
A 130gr TMK in 6.5cm at about 2700fps will stay above its fragmentation threshold past 650 yards. At 650 it has 4.7mils of drop, and 0.7mils of drift with a 90° 5mph wind.
A 175gr TMK in 308 will run about 2600fps. It’s fragmentation threshold is only 550 yards, and at 650 yards it drops 5.2mils, and 0.8mils of drift with the same wind.
At 1000 the 6.5cm will drop 1.4mils less, and drift 0.2mils less. That’s a lot more room for error at distance with the 6.5cm, and the 130gr TMK is nowhere near a top bc bullet in 6.5cm, where the 175gr TMK is a very high bc bullet for .308win. If we switch to a 140gr hybrid in 6.5cm, it’ll drop about the same as the 130TMK, but have half a mil less wind drift than the 175gr TMK, which is 18” of drift, or about the width of a torso.
Again, I'm not arguing his point for him.... Simply taking his word and perspective for what it is. At this point somebody really needs to reach out to him and school his ass. Obviously his 35 or whatever years in the trade mean nothing and this is obviously the first hot new cartridge he has ever chambered for. (read sarcasm here).
Right, wrong, I really don't care. If I was building a custom rifle for hunting purposes only I would consider his info on bullet choice but beyond that I at least tend to listen to those with more experience in their field than I have.
OP as far as bullet choices, the 6.5 has been used on everything from varmint to moose. In Europe they use the 160 gr class bullets for Big Game and they work well. 6.5 bullets tend to have great sectional density which means they penetrate well. The 160 gr round nose bullets aren't going to be your top choice for long range shooting. Selby's argument about the 6.5 CM is criticism of long range hunting in general. We all know that shot placement is paramount but the hunting crowd crunches the numbers as well and they believe in energy on target.
I'm tapping out on this one.
A wise man one said:" shoot a man or elk in the dick, it will not care about the caliber of the projectile". Maybe a urban myth, IDK. Happy Saturday.
Oh yeah,
Well here's a comparison of 6.5cm and 300wm using factory Hornady 147gr ELD for the 6.5cm and factory Federal Gold Metal Match 190gr SMK. Now the 190gr FGMM 300WM load is far from the most capable ways to load a 300wm anymore but your comment was "vs the worst a .300wm has to offer" and this load is light years ahead of the worst 300wm has to offer. Also the 190gr FGMM used to be the gold standard of 300wm loads and it was so for a long time it's also virtually the same load as the militaries MK248 MOD 0 which was the same military 300wm load from back in the day of guys like Chris Kyle. So let's see if our modern 6.5cm's can slap around Chris Kyle's ole 300wm at extended range shall we.
Below 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady 147gr
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6.5-creedmoor-147-gr-eld-match#!/
Below 300 Win Mag Federal Gold Medal Match 190gr SMK
https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/gold-medal/gold-medal-sierra-matchking/11-GM300WM.html
Note that at 1000 yards the 6.5cm has 28% less wind drift but only has less 6% energy than the 300wm and that the 6.5cm also has 150 yards more supersonic range.
Hmmm..... Beating 300wm at extended range and all with a little 6.5cm that's affordable and pleasant to shoot. Now to be fair with modern loads like 225gr ELD-M in the 300wm this comparison would go differently but when you start handloading the best 30 cal projectiles into a 300wm you discover the reasons why you'd rather have a 300 PRC and also we can do much better for the 6.5cm than a factory Hornady load as well.
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I’m not reading all that shit, because I can see right away you missed the part about comparing the worst of a .300 win mag to the best of a 6.5 creed. Go ahead and run those numbers this time use ELD match for the .300 win mag instead of some low BC SMK.
Modern bullets definitely skew in favor for the 300WM now but years ago I’ve shot my 260 side by side with a few 300wm’s with me shooting the 140 BTHP and they were perturbed with my performance ballistically.
BS.
300wm has been around for 60 years alot of the good reputation that it's gained over that time is based on far worse loads than the 190gr SMK FGMM and here we are beating that performance at extended range with a little 6.5cm.
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As usual, I read an OP like this and think of not one but two rifle purchases.
For SHTF, I agree with those above pointing to an AR-10. In 308, you have inexpensive ammo as a plus, in 6.5CM a bit more ballistic advantage. But get training because you're not going to be able to sit back and pick off people that know their shit. Your gear, head and training will have to work together.
For the second rifle purchase, get a solid ELR rifle and learn all you can from it. The ballistics and wind call experience will make you much more automatic at the ranges that will matter for SHTF.
Bottom line, SHTF never goes according to plan. You will need experience to be able to defend your ranch if you are outnumbered, especially if they know WTF they are doing. Or we could just go watch the last Rambo movie and hope for the best.
For SHTF, I agree with those above pointing to an AR-10. In 308, you have inexpensive ammo as a plus, in 6.5CM a bit more ballistic advantage. But get training because you're not going to be able to sit back and pick off people that know their shit. Your gear, head and training will have to work together.
For the second rifle purchase, get a solid ELR rifle and learn all you can from it. The ballistics and wind call experience will make you much more automatic at the ranges that will matter for SHTF.
Bottom line, SHTF never goes according to plan. You will need experience to be able to defend your ranch if you are outnumbered, especially if they know WTF they are doing. Or we could just go watch the last Rambo movie and hope for the best.
The 260 rem has been around a long time, why did it take hornady marketing to fooling you into thinking something new and great just came out to get you on the .264 ban wagon?
Now you’re just trolling, and closing the conversation. This isn’t a .300 win mag vs 6.5 creedmoor discussion, this is a how to conduct as close to apples to apples comparison as possible. If you want to compare the two cartridges, you need to use the same bullets, because the ELDs are significantly higher in BC then smk. The form factor between those bullets aren’t even the same class. Next is heavy for caliber. If you’re going to compare a 147 gr eld in 6.5, then let’s compare a 212gr eld in .300. Go ahead crunch the numbers. Share the results
147eldm at 2900
208eldm at 2900
within 1/10 MOA at 1k
208eldm at 2900
within 1/10 MOA at 1k
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Does not matter.
(Edit; But BTW that was already discussed. You remember that post you refused to read.....)
Again 300wm has been around for 60 years alot of the good reputation that it's gained over that time is based on far worse loads than the 190gr SMK FGMM and here we are beating that performance at extended range with a little 6.5cm.
We don't need to compare to your best loads we just need to match or beat the performance of some of the loads 300wm's 60 yr old reputation is based on because people and animals have not gotten harder to kill over time. In this case over 1000 yards 6.5cm is taking 300wm's old MK248 MOD 0 to school and the MK248 MOD 0's was known and accepted as a freight train of a man stopper out to 1200 meters correct?
And here's the OP asking;
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True but even with 225 ELD M's in my 300wm I'm only getting like 150 yards more range than the 6.5cm with a decent hit probability on the size targets I'm shooting at. However once you factor in all costs like the extra powder and more barrel wear of the 300wm it's costing me double to run. It's almost like an exercise in futility if it wasn't so much fun to shoot a magnum I'd give it up.
That was one of the reasons I went 7mm saum.
Easy shooting
Great ballistics
60 grains of powder.
