Hornday A-Tip vs Berger Hybrid

Kidster · Aug 29, 2022

I know there has been discussions about the 2 bullets and one of the biggest issue is the cost of the A-tip. I noticed today that the A-Tip prices have dropped a lot and is now close to the cost of the Berger at least for a .338 300 grain.

I have been using the Berger for awhile now and wonder if there is any benefit from jumping to the A-tip. Anyone with real world experience with both and provide they opinions would be appreciated?

impactaddict · Aug 29, 2022

I saw a post on r/longrange subreddit that made me questions QC at hornady.

Quite a large variance in bullet weight in this guys lot. Prices being the same (or close to) I'm sticking with Berger.

Mormegil87 · Aug 29, 2022

Going to follow this one

Shoots 700's · Aug 29, 2022

I am not a fan of any tipped bullets. Berger or Scenars have been my go to for some time

Taylorbok · Aug 29, 2022

I shoot the 30 cal 250gr a-tips based on the fact that they were available and I was running out of 245 Bergers. I've had good luck they shoot well.
I just went and weighed 10 of each on my FX120i
A-tips were +/- 0.10gr
Bergers +/-.05gr

Kidster · Aug 29, 2022

impactaddict said:
I saw a post on r/longrange subreddit that made me questions QC at hornady.

Quite a large variance in bullet weight in this guys lot. Prices being the same (or close to) I'm sticking with Berger.

Thanks for the article and link. One thing I find funny, he is using a 65 creed to shoot out to a mile and I would think it would be well past transonic and that weight variance won't matter at the range with that setup.

impactaddict · Aug 29, 2022

Kidster said:
Thanks for the article and link. One thing I find funny, he is using a 65 creed to shoot out to a mile and I would think it would be well past transonic and that weight variance won't matter at the range with that setup.

You're welcome. I only brought the link to this to the thread because it seems like your starting point might be a mile, maybe more.. I know almost nothing about ELR shooting but I do know consistency is everything, especially for you guys. The variance he's seeing in his lot seems like it would matter more out past a mile, not necessarily for PRS shooting distances.

Andrew863 · Aug 29, 2022

So all I can say is in my opinion they have both done very very well for me. In my 260 I shot last year I use the 153 a tip and it was very predictable and they were incredibly consistent in every way. I never found one way off from the other neither in weight or base to tip or ogive. Now this year I'm shooting a 6cm and went to the Berger 109 hybrid and can't say I'm going to be hunting down any a tips. Every application is going to be different and your for sure going to have some Hornady haters in this post but I haven't found a issue with either one.

Kidster · Aug 29, 2022

Andrew863 said:
So all I can say is in my opinion they have both done very very well for me. In my 260 I shot last year I use the 153 a tip and it was very predictable and they were incredibly consistent in every way. I never found one way off from the other neither in weight or base to tip or ogive. Now this year I'm shooting a 6cm and went to the Berger 109 hybrid and can't say I'm going to be hunting down any a tips. Every application is going to be different and your for sure going to have some Hornady haters in this post but I haven't found a issue with either one.

Thanks for the input and yes its just like the arguement about Ford vs Chevy. I use the Hornady 6.5 ELD-M for my girlfriend's creed with great results. For me the Berger for the LM and 6.5 PRC and with great results.

Did you test for seating deep on your build? And if so, did you see any major sensitivity on accuracy?

Baron23 · Aug 29, 2022

impactaddict said:
I saw a post on r/longrange subreddit that made me questions QC at hornady.

Quite a large variance in bullet weight in this guys lot. Prices being the same (or close to) I'm sticking with Berger.

am I missing something or is that delta .9%....not much, I don't think.

impactaddict · Aug 29, 2022

You’re not missing anything. It’s just that they’re premium Hornady bullets and the variance is worse than standard production Berger he had on hand. They cost (or used to) a lot more than Berger.
OP thought that was odd, I do too. How much does it matter in PRS? Likely not at all. Would it matter more out past a mile? I honestly do not know. Would I pay the premium for ATIP over the Berger hybrid? Not a chance.

Andrew863 · Aug 29, 2022

Kidster said:
Thanks for the input and yes its just like the arguement about Ford vs Chevy. I use the Hornady 6.5 ELD-M for my girlfriend's creed with great results. For me the Berger for the LM and 6.5 PRC and with great results.

Did you test for seating deep on your build? And if so, did you see any major sensitivity on accuracy?

Honestly for the 153 I just had to set it to what would load in the mag which had me at .085 of jump and it shot very very well. Always shot .5 or better.

Dstoenner · Aug 30, 2022

I find the atip and lrht both shoot consistently at 1000 yards. I have never shot on a no wind day at that distance. At 100 the groups are indistinguishable. The biggest difference for me is that the good node for the atip is 100 fps faster than the berger. 3104 vs 3005

That said the atips have not gone done in price but burgers have gone up narrowing the difference.

David

M4orturnate · Aug 30, 2022

Just made a switch to 110 atips and they shoot excellent. Have had 2 lots that are incredibly consistent and theyre always available. Id be happy to shoot bergers but have a hard time finding the ones i want in stock. Wichever you go with buy as many as you can

Dead Eye Dick · Aug 31, 2022

Speaking of tipped bullets, Sierra went from a tipped 6.5, 130 grain MatchKing back to a 130 grain closed tip MatchKing. shot a lot of the closed tipped 130 grainers. They were my goto bullet but the supply dried up.

jmornoinf · Aug 31, 2022

I am shooting 230gr A-Tips and could not be happier. I also shoot 135gr A-Tips in 6.5 creed with great success.

I could not get the 110 A-Tips to shoot in my 6 Creed and switched back to the Berger 105gr "gold standard"

Kidster · Sep 1, 2022

Dstoenner said:
I find the atip and lrht both shoot consistently at 1000 yards. I have never shot on a no wind day at that distance. At 100 the groups are indistinguishable. The biggest difference for me is that the good node for the atip is 100 fps faster than the berger. 3104 vs 3005

That said the atips have not gone done in price but burgers have gone up narrowing the difference.

David

Yup, after I looked at what I paid for the Berger I notice that the prices have gone up. Maybe they figured that if people are paying that much for A-Tips then they will pay the same for Berger. Thank Hornady

Mormegil87 · Sep 1, 2022

Are they really that close in price? Granted it's just 6mm for me, but I'm still under $0.60/piece versus $0.75-$0.80 for A-tips.

I personally have seen more consistency with Begers but I'm just one person over the course of a couple of barrels.

Kidster · Sep 1, 2022

RoterJager said:
Are they really that close in price? Granted it's just 6mm for me, but I'm still under $0.60/piece versus $0.75-$0.80 for A-tips.

I personally have seen more consistency with Begers but I'm just one person over the course of a couple of barrels.

Checking one website, a box of 100 for 300gr 338, A-tips is $98.30 and Hybrid OTM is $94.70. So Berger is still slightly less and per everyone's input is a better performer.

Mormegil87 · Sep 1, 2022

Gotcha. I only have experience with the 6mm variants.

JustSendit · Sep 1, 2022

If you’re playing the BC game, the ATIP generally beats comparable gr berger bullets.
153 Atip .359 vs 153.5LRHT .349
110 Atip .301 vs 109LRHT .292

I think one Atip that is really helpful, for TAC shooters, is the 178Atip. Qualifies for the division and with a high BC.

Personally it’s kind of wash, both performed well for me but I would say generally I found the Berger’s easy to find accuracy. Just seemed like I’ve found a wide area where those shoot well vs the Atip. But no significant reps to really slap the table on that.

I like 500 count boxes so I stick with the yellow stuff lol

BCX · Sep 1, 2022

Berger or solids every time for me. If you start shooting distance you will notice the difference.

I spent a lot of time and money testing Berger 300 OTM vs Hornady 300 A-Tip earlier this year at 1774 in my one of my rifles...
Berger 300 OTM to the win.

357Max · Sep 1, 2022

I think the prices have come down a little on the Atips if you shop around.
Just bought 400 6.5 135’s for .66

I do agree with @JustSendit the Bergers have been easier to find a load for IME with the 6mm 110 & 308 176’s

The problem is with 6.5, there are no 140/144 Berger’s
They have to be some of their best selling Sku’s & for some fucking unknown reason they’ve been focussed on the 130 hunting class pills WTF Berger?

Kidster · Sep 1, 2022

357Max said:
The problem is with 6.5, there are no 140/144 Berger’s

Are you staying you can't find any Berger 6.5 140gr or 144gr or they don't make it?

357Max · Sep 1, 2022

Kidster said:
Are you staying you can't find any Berger 6.5 140gr or 144gr or they don't make it?

They still make them in theory.
Can’t remember the last time I found any in stock???
Over a year easily.
What I cannot fathom is why the hell Berger has done multiple runs of 25 cal 135LRHT & no fucking 6.5 heavies.
I shoot 25 also and no problems finding them, but seriously 6.5 has to be 10x more popular & when is the last time anyone has seen 140 Hybrid or 144LRHT in stock???

That is the only reason I’m switching to 135 Atips.

Kidster · Sep 1, 2022

357Max said:
They still make them in theory.
Can’t remember the last time I found any in stock???
Over a year easily.
What I cannot fathom is why the hell Berger has done multiple runs of 25 cal 135LRHT & no fucking 6.5 heavies.

Ah ok thanks.

Maybe what they can manufacture is being used for ammo since I would think they make more money on that than components. Any possible supply chain issues with getting copper or lead. Or they make more money off the 25 then on 6.5.

Dough300 · Sep 1, 2022

Was very pleased with the first 2 shots of the A-Tip on animals. Good placement, yes. But the bullets performed excellent. Nothing crazy, 165yds and 120yds. 153gr A-Tip. I bought 1000 of them this Nov-Dec. Only 2 bucks, but a good start for the first week.
Accuracy is excellent with my combo.

Oldloser · Sep 2, 2022

The Berger 135 classic hybrid hunters are single hole groups for me on paper. ATips are cloverleaf. I was only shooter at last prs match to hit both sun Moa hangers at distance and used those Berger to do it. I’d test both in your gun to see which it likes best.

Baron23 · Sep 2, 2022

Kidster said:
Ah ok thanks.

Maybe what they can manufacture is being used for ammo since I would think they make more money on that than components. Any possible supply chain issues with getting copper or lead. Or they make more money off the 25 then on 6.5.

Good luck finding 6.5 140 HT loaded ammo too. I put in a b.o. w Creedmoor Sports for five cases of it. I got it…only took 17 months

I think I could have gnawed them out with my teeth out of lead and copper faster

357Max · Sep 2, 2022

Oldloser said:
The Berger 135 classic hybrid hunters are single hole groups for me on paper. ATips are cloverleaf. I was only shooter at last prs match to hit both sun Moa hangers at distance and used those Berger to do it. I’d test both in your gun to see which it likes best.

What speed were you running with the 135 classic’s?

Taylorbok · Sep 2, 2022

The A-tips that I have are 100% out performing the Bergers I can't even get...

Oldloser · Sep 2, 2022

357Max said:
What speed were you running with the 135 classic’s?

2815 in a new barrel. It sped up to 2845 at about the 200 round mark. Proof 26 inch. 6.5x47.

TreyMeTrey · Feb 5, 2023

Taylorbok said:
I shoot the 30 cal 250gr a-tips based on the fact that they were available and I was running out of 245 Bergers. I've had good luck they shoot well.
I just went and weighed 10 of each on my FX120i
A-tips were +/- 0.10gr
Bergers +/-.05gr

Bergers also have a lower BC than the A Tips. My shooting partner shot Berger in 338 Caliber in 2022.He won a ELR long range match and went 3 for 3 at 2,907 yards.No one else include the Heavy guns did it that day.He was shooting a 33XC in the Light Gun Class.
I was shooting Hornady A Tips in a 300 PRC. I did fair.It was not the bullets,Its was me.Howeverin GA in Jan of 2023 I came in 4thand he came in 5th both of us shooting the same guns.I like the A Tips.They have done well for me.I have since moved up toa33XC in Light Gun and a 375 Cheytac in Heavy Gun Class. Im shooting Cutting Edge Solids in the 375 Cheytac. Im not sure if I willgo with A Tips or Solids in my 33XC .There is not enough mon edy differencein Berger or A Tips to makethat a deciding factor.
We are shooting from 1500 yds to 3000 yardsso every little bit helps..

TreyMeTrey · Feb 5, 2023

357Max said:
What speed were you running with the 135 classic’s?

At Blakely GA in mis Jan of this year my group was less than 2 inches in 4 iimpacts out of 5 shots at 2200 yards.I missed the 5th shot when the wind switched.I was shooting a 300 PRC and 250gr Hornady A-Tips at 2,810 fps.

Oldloser · Feb 6, 2023

New barrel. 26" Brux. 8 twist. MDT brake fully open on ports. Wind 11-14 mph full. 98 yards. CH 135 and ATIPS 135.

20 shots CH at 120 round mark. Single hole 3/4 inch. 2830 fps.

20 shots ATIPS at 90 round mark. Single hole 1 inch across. One flier at 1.25". 2810 fps.

Same powder and weight, same run of brass,. SAC die and mandrel, same jump - 80/1000.

Zeroes were exactly the same.

My observations were that CH wanted to go in the same hole from shot to shot whereas ATIPS liked to touch edges with a bit more vertical dispersion..

I did Build/Breaks with CH after 140 shot mark and had 95% of the shots hit the same spot on steel at 400 yards. One shot was .3 mil low.

I did a jump test with the ATIPS at 160 mark and ATIPS were on the same horizontal line at 40/1000 - 20/1000 jump.

I took last 10 shots with ATIPS at steel TYL at 750 yards and hit all steel first time other than .2 mil target. I never hit it. But all shots were on same horizontal line. Note the wind.

I am doing 200 rounds of ATIPS at jump of 30/1000.

MULEDEER264 · Mar 11, 2023

impactaddict said:
I saw a post on r/longrange subreddit that made me questions QC at hornady.

Quite a large variance in bullet weight in this guys lot. Prices being the same (or close to) I'm sticking with Berger.

I have had that same scale it is bad I wouldn’t huge the a tip over that

nazarsh · Oct 18, 2023

So I go through a boat load of Bergers and my buddies usually question the cost vs benefit. Hornady comes up a lot in those conversations so I decided to pick up a box of A-Tips of the same grain and compare the two since they should be in the same price/quality category. Here are the results. I used a good quality scale and double checked outliers. PRs are welcome if you see issues with my code. Scroll down to see visualizations.

projectiles/stats.ipynb at main · nazarsh/projectiles

Comparing 230 grain Berger OTM Hybrid and Hornady A-Tip bullets - nazarsh/projectiles

github.com

category_theory · Oct 18, 2023

The fact that you put this on GitHub already lends all the credibility I need to your argument

. Outside of that aren’t atips priced super high compared to otm bergers?!

category_theory · Oct 18, 2023

category_theory said:
The fact that you put this on GitHub already lends all the credibility I need to your argument . Outside of that aren’t atips priced super high compared to otm bergers?!

I should also say that Berger seems to only have one outlier so perhaps a std stat would be helpful. Bergers just are in my experience very very tightly controlled QA w minimal deviation from the mean.

nazarsh · Oct 18, 2023

category_theory said:
The fact that you put this on GitHub already lends all the credibility I need to your argument . Outside of that aren’t atips priced super high compared to otm bergers?!

Thanks

And I really should dig up my receipts for this to be properly done...
Hornady on PowderValley: $91.99
Berger on MileHigh: $64.99

So there goes my initial "eh, I thought they were close enough in price". But I am sure one can find them better priced too.

Oh, good point and here is more

Markdown (GitHub flavored):

| Statistic            | Manufacturer | Projectile | Value    |
|----------------------|--------------|------------|----------|
| Mean                 | Berger       | 230 OTM    | 229.9028 |
|                      | Hornady      | 230 A-Tip  | 229.8482 |
| Median               | Berger       | 230 OTM    | 229.90   |
|                      | Hornady      | 230 A-Tip  | 229.82   |
| Standard Deviation   | Berger       | 230 OTM    | 0.043672 |
|                      | Hornady      | 230 A-Tip  | 0.084523 |

category_theory · Oct 18, 2023

Haha I’ve been a researcher, engineer, quant, data scientist (whatever that means) and everything in between in my life. If you put shit into code and math and stats you’re speaking my language

But yeah bergers are just superior, cost per bullet, consistency, dynamics etc. There is a reason that the crazies that shoot F class only shoot Bergers….. cause those nut jobs measure the fuck out of everything!!

.

nazarsh · Oct 18, 2023

category_theory said:
Haha I’ve been a researcher, engineer, quant, data scientist (whatever that means) and everything in between in my life. If you put shit into code and math and stats you’re speaking my language

But yeah bergers are just superior, cost per bullet, consistency, dynamics etc. There is a reason that the crazies that shoot F class only shoot Bergers….. cause those nut jobs measure the fuck out of everything!! .

I know what you mean! I deal with data quality control and yeah, I need to express things this way to get a sense of what is really happening.
Haha I like your approach there with the F class folks, I think I inevitably did a similar thing when I started this hobby: something along the lines of what does John Whidden sell on his site? Berger, Alpha/Lapua, and VihtaVuori. Done, I don't have to think about it anymore.

Modoc · Oct 18, 2023

@nazarsh, Thank You for an easily readable presentation!

It made everything very clear for this Civil Engineer

As I move into the precision shooting world, it makes decisions easier. Especially since I’ve been designing with a micrometer, laying it out with a rag tape and spray paint and building it with a bulldozer.

category_theory · Oct 19, 2023

nazarsh said:
I know what you mean! I deal with data quality control and yeah, I need to express things this way to get a sense of what is really happening.
Haha I like your approach there with the F class folks, I think I inevitably did a similar thing when I started this hobby: something along the lines of what does John Whidden sell on his site? Berger, Alpha/Lapua, and VihtaVuori. Done, I don't have to think about it anymore.

Basically what I did. Got into the shooting hobby then found out that ballistics engineering is “rocket science”. I said sign me the hell up! Science, math, engineering and shit that goes BOOOM! This is my golf!

TreyMeTrey · Oct 19, 2023

nazarsh said:
Thanks And I really should dig up my receipts for this to be properly done...
Hornady on PowderValley: $91.99
Berger on MileHigh: $64.99

So there goes my initial "eh, I thought they were close enough in price". But I am sure one can find them better priced too.

Oh, good point and here is more

Markdown (GitHub flavored):

| Statistic | Manufacturer | Projectile | Value | |----------------------|--------------|------------|----------| | Mean | Berger | 230 OTM | 229.9028 | | | Hornady | 230 A-Tip | 229.8482 | | Median | Berger | 230 OTM | 229.90 | | | Hornady | 230 A-Tip | 229.82 | | Standard Deviation | Berger | 230 OTM | 0.043672 | | | Hornady | 230 A-Tip | 0.084523 |

Whats the BC differences

nazarsh · Oct 19, 2023

TreyMeTrey said:
Whats the BC differences

Advertised (taken from boxes, not online)
Hornady G1 .823 G7 .414
Berger G1 .710 G7 .364

As far as individual bullet differences in each of the boxes, that is way above my proverbial pay grade. This is Litz and AB type level https://bergerbullets.com/nobsbc/measuring-bcs/
I measured weight since that is what one of the contributors did and I simply replicated the test with a more precise scale.

acourvil · Oct 19, 2023

JustSendit said:
If you’re playing the BC game, the ATIP generally beats comparable gr berger bullets.
153 Atip .359 vs 153.5LRHT .349
110 Atip .301 vs 109LRHT .292

I think one Atip that is really helpful, for TAC shooters, is the 178Atip. Qualifies for the division and with a high BC.

Personally it’s kind of wash, both performed well for me but I would say generally I found the Berger’s easy to find accuracy. Just seemed like I’ve found a wide area where those shoot well vs the Atip. But no significant reps to really slap the table on that.

I like 500 count boxes so I stick with the yellow stuff lol

I have shot the 153 Atips and 153.5 LRHT in my 6.5 PRC, 7 twist. I got slightly better accuracy with the Atips, and a bit more sped, but after my barrel was a little worn the Atips started blowing up; for example, I lost 5 shots in a 50 shot long range match where I was shooting great but 5 bullets never arrived near the target. The same barrel shot the 153.5 LRHT great, and I have permanently switched to the Bergers for this application. Hornady gave me a bit of a run-around, and ultimately told me that I was spinning the bullets too fast, notwithstanding that I was under max in their published load data and the boxes were marked 7.5 MINIIMUM twist.

I also have shot the 110 Atips and the 109 LRHT in my 6 Creed rifles, one a 7 twist and one a 7.25 twist. I get slightly better accuracy with the Atips, but slightly better consistency at long range (900-1000 yards) with the Bergers. The Atips have a bit more vertical variation at long range, maybe the Bergers BC consistency is better? I would comfortably shoot either but the Atips are my regular load for matches. Another advantage of the Atips was that during the pandemic when most 6mm bullets were hard to find, I could usually find the Atips.

straightshooter1 · Oct 19, 2023

acourvil said:
I have shot the 153 Atips and 153.5 LRHT in my 6.5 PRC, 7 twist. I got slightly better accuracy with the Atips, and a bit more sped, but after my barrel was a little worn the Atips started blowing up; for example, I lost 5 shots in a 50 shot long range match where I was shooting great but 5 bullets never arrived near the target. The same barrel shot the 153.5 LRHT great, and I have permanently switched to the Bergers for this application. Hornady gave me a bit of a run-around, and ultimately told me that I was spinning the bullets too fast, notwithstanding that I was under max in their published load data and the boxes were marked 7.5 MINIIMUM twist.

I also have shot the 110 Atips and the 109 LRHT in my 6 Creed rifles, one a 7 twist and one a 7.25 twist. I get slightly better accuracy with the Atips, but slightly better consistency at long range (900-1000 yards) with the Bergers. The Atips have a bit more vertical variation at long range, maybe the Bergers BC consistency is better? I would comfortably shoot either but the Atips are my regular load for matches. Another advantage of the Atips was that during the pandemic when most 6mm bullets were hard to find, I could usually find the Atips.

What velocity were you getting for those that were blowing up?

I've been running the 153 A-Tips with Retumbo to 3,003 fps in my 26" 1:8 6.5 PRC and no problems, though I haven't yet shot them a lot yet.

acourvil · Oct 19, 2023

3030 with H1000 IIRC. But that was with 1:7 twist.

nazarsh · Oct 20, 2023

acourvil said:
I have shot the 153 Atips and 153.5 LRHT in my 6.5 PRC, 7 twist. I got slightly better accuracy with the Atips, and a bit more sped, but after my barrel was a little worn the Atips started blowing up; for example, I lost 5 shots in a 50 shot long range match where I was shooting great but 5 bullets never arrived near the target. The same barrel shot the 153.5 LRHT great, and I have permanently switched to the Bergers for this application. Hornady gave me a bit of a run-around, and ultimately told me that I was spinning the bullets too fast, notwithstanding that I was under max in their published load data and the boxes were marked 7.5 MINIIMUM twist.

I also have shot the 110 Atips and the 109 LRHT in my 6 Creed rifles, one a 7 twist and one a 7.25 twist. I get slightly better accuracy with the Atips, but slightly better consistency at long range (900-1000 yards) with the Bergers. The Atips have a bit more vertical variation at long range, maybe the Bergers BC consistency is better? I would comfortably shoot either but the Atips are my regular load for matches. Another advantage of the Atips was that during the pandemic when most 6mm bullets were hard to find, I could usually find the Atips.

This is really helpful! I am completely not qualified to make comments on the physics of it all, but the personal takeaway is : if I don’t mind dialing more elevation and if environmental conditions are mild combined with a need for consistency/precision - go with Berger.
Where it falls apart for me is hitting something like golf balls at 850y limited to 10 rounds per try. I know I am dealing with accuracy but I also know my skill won’t necessarily allow me to hit it easily so at that point I am really relying on consistency to pick up the slack so I’d still go with Berger. I guess I will load both and see what my experience ends up being.

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