I presume your barrel has the 1:3 twist? Could you post your barrel info for ease of keeping track of the details when problems are noted by folks?
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8.6 Blk reloading info
- Thread starter unclemoak
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I presume your barrel has the 1:3 twist? Could you post your barrel info for ease of keeping track of the details when problems are noted by folks?
Don't know. I searched for fragments but I shoot from grass and was unable to find any pieces. It appears to only have hit the last baffle of the brake, so it might have exited the barrel okay and then started coming apart after that. I honestly would have thought 300gr @ 1020fps would have done more damage, so I'm thinking it started fragmenting/wobling about an inch after exiting the barrel.
Yeah, guess I posted all the reload info and not the barrel info. It's a Faxon 12" 1:3 AR-10 barrel with a Faxon 8.6 BLK brake. Brass was converted Hdy 6.5CM loaded to 2.760". Currently just shy of 150 rounds down the barrel, this being the first issue I've had.
Rounds downrange so far have been 185gr Hdy CX (2140 fps, sub-MOA), 200gr Speer Hot-Cor Spitzer (2080 fps, meh-MOA), 270gr Hdy ELD-X (subs, meh-MOA), and 300gr Berger OTM Tactical (1022fps, sub-MOA (when not exploding)). All loaded with A1680.
Tell ya what, if it was my rifle, the next thing I'd want to do is stick a range rod down the bore and verify alignment with that brake. It might have been the bullet, but maybe not. A poorly aligned brake can cause accuracy issues too.
A good cheap source for a range rod is centerless ground drill rod from McMaster Carr. I get the O1 tool steel drill rod since it seems to be a little straighter, but YMMV on that. For the 338 bore, a 21/64" rod is the closest common size most likely to work, at ~.328" OD. If your barrel has shallow rifling, an 8.40mm metric rod might work too, but at .3307" it may be too large for a lot of .338 bores.
Hope that helps.
Don't go the O1 route as they don't have the required straightness tolerance, go with W1, then have to ask for one of them to be sent 3 times because it either showed up bent or the package got damaged along the way.
First post here in a long time. I've been building an 8.6 Blackout. I felt like I hadn't been miserable enough in my life and building the 8.6 Blackout seemed just the ticket for misery so I bought some parts and started assembling the rifle. The build went fine. It's an AR 10 so not exactly difficult to "assemble". I bought some Gorilla Ammo subs to test it with. I didn't use an adjustable gas block (lesson #1) and the rounds ejected at about 1:30 - 2:00. Over gassing. I just installed the adjustable block this evening. I have a Sheridan gauge for a number of rounds, including the 8.6 BLK. I've got another "wildcat" caliber, a .338 Edge (necked up .300 RUM) so I'm not new to wildcats. My .20 PPC is a wildcat so I guess I have two. I've been reloading about 25 years. Maybe a little longer than that. So what's the problem. That's what I'm here for right?
I shot 4 of the Gorilla Ammo rounds and noted that there was clearly an overgassing issue. I played around with the idea of changing buffer weights but the place to start was the gas block. Since I had some brand new Redding 8.6 Blackout dies I thought I'd resize the brass. It took as much effort to resize the first case as it does to neck up .300 RUM to .338. I wasn't able to size the entire case. I had to stop about 1/4" away. I used Hornady One Shot case lube, which has always worked well for me. I switched to Imperial sizing wax and tried progressively move the round into the die in about 1/4" steps. The second case was as hard to size as the the first one was and I couldn't get a full sizing on it. Neither attempt decapped the primer. I started to think that the Redding dies were bad (spoiler alert, I don't think that's the case now). I decided to try to resize one more round. It wasn't any easier to resize and it stopped about a 1/4 inch up. So I stopped right? Nope. It was just a 1/4". I should be able to add just a little more pressure (Forster CoAx press). I added pressure, it might've moved a little, but when I retracted the case it moved a lot. Like it tore the rim off of the case and the case stuck in the die moved a lot. I got the case out of the die but screwed up a punch and probably screwed up the die in the process. I should've sent it to Redding. I took some measurements of the die opening with a Starrett digital caliper and compared the measurements to the case and chamber drawings that I found. It "looked like" the Redding dies were .001 to .002 smaller than the case and chamber. Problem is, I don't know where those drawings originated from and it's no a SAMMI spec'd case so there's that. I have inside gauges and micrometers put away in storage. They possibly would have been more precise. It gets worse.
Being the impatient sort, and somewhat convinced the Redding screwed up the die, I order Hornady AND Lee dies. I was smart enough to stop using the Hornady dies right away. They were just like the Redding dies, way too tight. I actually sized and decapped two cases with the Lee dies but it was still too tight. The Lee dies has a case stuck in it. So now I'm left with questions:
(1) To me, the obvious question is whether the chamber in the Faxon 16" barrel is crap... I mean slightly oversized.
(2) Is "fat" brass related to the over gassing problem somehow? Like is the brass coming out of the chamber so fast that it expands due to the heat?
I'm a bolt gun person not an AR person. I tell my son that I hate all six of my AR's and when I get done building the next two I'm going to hate them too. Truth is, they are fun to build and shoot. The 8.6 has been an anomaly.
Here's a piece of a post I made elsewhere the first time I had this problem:
I shot 4 of the Gorilla Ammo rounds and noted that there was clearly an overgassing issue. I played around with the idea of changing buffer weights but the place to start was the gas block. Since I had some brand new Redding 8.6 Blackout dies I thought I'd resize the brass. It took as much effort to resize the first case as it does to neck up .300 RUM to .338. I wasn't able to size the entire case. I had to stop about 1/4" away. I used Hornady One Shot case lube, which has always worked well for me. I switched to Imperial sizing wax and tried progressively move the round into the die in about 1/4" steps. The second case was as hard to size as the the first one was and I couldn't get a full sizing on it. Neither attempt decapped the primer. I started to think that the Redding dies were bad (spoiler alert, I don't think that's the case now). I decided to try to resize one more round. It wasn't any easier to resize and it stopped about a 1/4 inch up. So I stopped right? Nope. It was just a 1/4". I should be able to add just a little more pressure (Forster CoAx press). I added pressure, it might've moved a little, but when I retracted the case it moved a lot. Like it tore the rim off of the case and the case stuck in the die moved a lot. I got the case out of the die but screwed up a punch and probably screwed up the die in the process. I should've sent it to Redding. I took some measurements of the die opening with a Starrett digital caliper and compared the measurements to the case and chamber drawings that I found. It "looked like" the Redding dies were .001 to .002 smaller than the case and chamber. Problem is, I don't know where those drawings originated from and it's no a SAMMI spec'd case so there's that. I have inside gauges and micrometers put away in storage. They possibly would have been more precise. It gets worse.
Being the impatient sort, and somewhat convinced the Redding screwed up the die, I order Hornady AND Lee dies. I was smart enough to stop using the Hornady dies right away. They were just like the Redding dies, way too tight. I actually sized and decapped two cases with the Lee dies but it was still too tight. The Lee dies has a case stuck in it. So now I'm left with questions:
(1) To me, the obvious question is whether the chamber in the Faxon 16" barrel is crap... I mean slightly oversized.
(2) Is "fat" brass related to the over gassing problem somehow? Like is the brass coming out of the chamber so fast that it expands due to the heat?
I'm a bolt gun person not an AR person. I tell my son that I hate all six of my AR's and when I get done building the next two I'm going to hate them too.
Truth is, they are fun to build and shoot. The 8.6 has been an anomaly.Here's a piece of a post I made elsewhere the first time I had this problem:
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First post here in a long time. I've been building an 8.6 Blackout. I felt like I hadn't been miserable enough in my life and building the 8.6 Blackout seemed just the ticket for misery so I bought some parts and started assembling the rifle. The build went fine. It's an AR 10 so not exactly difficult to "assemble". I bought some Gorilla Ammo subs to test it with. I didn't use an adjustable gas block (lesson #1) and the rounds ejected at about 1:30 - 2:00. Over gassing. I just installed the adjustable block this evening. I have a Sheridan gauge for a number of rounds, including the 8.6 BLK. I've got another "wildcat" caliber, a .338 Edge (necked up .300 RUM) so I'm not new to wildcats. My .20 PPC is a wildcat so I guess I have two. I've been reloading about 25 years. Maybe a little longer than that. So what's the problem. That's what I'm here for right?
I shot 4 of the Gorilla Ammo rounds and noted that there was clearly an overgassing issue. I played around with the idea of changing buffer weights but the place to start was the gas block. Since I had some brand new Redding 8.6 Blackout dies I thought I'd resize the brass. It took as much effort to resize the first case as it does to neck up .300 RUM to .338. I wasn't able to size the entire case. I had to stop about 1/4" away. I used Hornady One Shot case lube, which has always worked well for me. I switched to Imperial sizing wax and tried progressively move the round into the die in about 1/4" steps. The second case was as hard to size as the the first one was and I couldn't get a full sizing on it. Neither attempt decapped the primer. I started to think that the Redding dies were bad (spoiler alert, I don't think that's the case now). I decided to try to resize one more round. It wasn't any easier to resize and it stopped about a 1/4 inch up. So I stopped right? Nope. It was just a 1/4". I should be able to add just a little more pressure (Forster CoAx press). I added pressure, it might've moved a little, but when I retracted the case it moved a lot. Like it tore the rim off of the case and the case stuck in the die moved a lot. I got the case out of the die but screwed up a punch and probably screwed up the die in the process. I should've sent it to Redding. I took some measurements of the die opening with a Starrett digital caliper and compared the measurements to the case and chamber drawings that I found. It "looked like" the Redding dies were .001 to .002 smaller than the case and chamber. Problem is, I don't know where those drawings originated from and it's no a SAMMI spec'd case so there's that. I have inside gauges and micrometers put away in storage. They possibly would have been more precise. It gets worse.
Being the impatient sort, and somewhat convinced the Redding screwed up the die, I order Hornady AND Lee dies. I was smart enough to stop using the Hornady dies right away. They were just like the Redding dies, way too tight. I actually sized and decapped two cases with the Lee dies but it was still too tight. The Lee dies has a case stuck in it. So now I'm left with questions:
(1) To me, the obvious question is whether the chamber in the Faxon 16" barrel is crap... I mean slightly oversized.
(2) Is "fat" brass related to the over gassing problem somehow? Like is the brass coming out of the chamber so fast that it expands due to the heat?
I'm a bolt gun person not an AR person. I tell my son that I hate all six of my AR's and when I get done building the next two I'm going to hate them too.
Here's a piece of a post I made elsewhere the first time I had this problem:
FYI - when you have a piece of brass stuck in a die, the most sure-fire way to remove it is to drill and tap the primer pocket for a 1/4"-28 bolt. Then drop a deep socket over the case so it rests against a die, put a washer on the bolt, and thread the bolt into the case through the back of the socket. Tightening the bolt will pull the case right out of the die with no (additional) damage, just like a mechanical screw jack.
Make sure to loosen the decapping rod and retract it out of the way for this of course.
Hope that helps.
Sorry though, no real info on your resizing issue; without having the brass and die in hand it's hard to say what's wrong. I doubt it's anything to do with the over gassing issue though. It's possible the brass is too hard and needs to be annealed. I think more likely is a combination of poor finish in the die and needing good lube. That Hornady One Shot is popular, but probably responsible for more brass stuck in dies than anything else on the market. Imperial should be fine, but really slicking the cases down with something lanolin based would be the route I'd go. I'd also want to inspect the internal finish of the die, especially right at the mouth, and I'd probably polish it a bit better. (Most dies can benefit from a little more polishing, when it's done right.)
I appreciate the case removal idea. That probably would have saved the Redding die. Lee has instructions for how to remove a stuck case. I got the case out of the Lee die but for $35 I decided to order another die.
I don't know who supplies Gorilla Ammo's brass.
Here's the 8.6 Blackout, after sizing, in the Lee in a Sheridan Engineering gauge. Note the top of the guage. I had two cases that sized with the Lee die but they were tight. This is one of them.
I don't know who supplies Gorilla Ammo's brass.
Here's the 8.6 Blackout, after sizing, in the Lee in a Sheridan Engineering gauge. Note the top of the guage. I had two cases that sized with the Lee die but they were tight. This is one of them.
Check your bump you may have to turn your die down a little more. If it is OK, stick the case in the Sheridan upside down. It should slide in quite a ways. If it doesn't you've probably got a ding or burr somewhere on the case head. When I come across one of them, I turn the case head lightly and slowly on a belt sander. I have also slightly beveled the end of the Sheridan to compensate for small dings that prevent proper testing, but will not hurt loading or ejection. If that isn't your problem, you may have to look at turning the necks on the brass.I appreciate the case removal idea. That probably would have saved the Redding die. Lee has instructions for how to remove a stuck case. I got the case out of the Lee die but for $35 I decided to order another die.
I don't know who supplies Gorilla Ammo's brass.
Here's the 8.6 Blackout, after sizing, in the Lee in a Sheridan Engineering gauge. Note the top of the guage. I had two cases that sized with the Lee die but they were tight. This is one of them.
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Experimenting again today. I shot two Gorilla subsonics and two Gorilla Barnes TSX (idk what velocity they are loading them too). I changed the gas block out to a Superlative Arms bleed off gas block and installed a JP Enterprises buffer (neither of these are cheap btw). The first two round ejected perfectly. Holy smokes, gee whiz, and golly, the adjustable gas block and nifty buffer arrangement worked! Not so fast. The first two rounds were subs. The Barnes TSX rounds landed at around 1 o'clock. Which is worse than before. However, I didn't adjust the gas block for non-subsonic rounds. When my can gets out of jail I'll see how it does with the can. I may borrow a friend of mines upper and see how his 12" barrel works with supers.
The "nifty buffer arrangement" did seem to have less felt recoil btw.
The "nifty buffer arrangement" did seem to have less felt recoil btw.
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As a general rule of thumb for rifles that run both super and sub loads - tune the rifle to work correctly with supers unsuppressed, and subs suppressed. If it works with subs unsuppressed, cool, but pretty much pointless. Expect it to be overgassed with supers suppressed.
An adjustable gas block does nothing for you if you haven't adjusted it to restrict the gas yet.
I’ve used 6.5cm, 6cm, 308, 7.62x51, 243, 7mm08 & 260. Depending on brass manufacturer, the majority will need neck turning. The 308 and 7.62 are about double neck wall thickness over others and need resizing after turning. Always water volume test as every case has different specs.
Wow! I've missed a lot since my last post!
I have always equated higher quality with better results; this is not the case with converting brass to 8.6. I dropped $250 on Lapua 6.5CM brass, cut, polished, cut again, chamfered, deburred, wrote it into my will . . . Only to find out NOT A SINGLE ONE would chamber in my bolt gun! I took out a factory Gorilla round and it went in just fine. I could not for the life of me see any difference at all in the rounds, until I looked down the nose of the bullet. (see below)
Apparently I am not alone in this from reading the more recent posts.
I salvaged what I could (bullets and powder). Very expensive, time consuming, painful experience.
I will just buy Gorilla, save the brass, and reload that.
I have always equated higher quality with better results; this is not the case with converting brass to 8.6. I dropped $250 on Lapua 6.5CM brass, cut, polished, cut again, chamfered, deburred, wrote it into my will . . . Only to find out NOT A SINGLE ONE would chamber in my bolt gun! I took out a factory Gorilla round and it went in just fine. I could not for the life of me see any difference at all in the rounds, until I looked down the nose of the bullet. (see below)
Apparently I am not alone in this from reading the more recent posts.
I salvaged what I could (bullets and powder). Very expensive, time consuming, painful experience.
I will just buy Gorilla, save the brass, and reload that.
Attachments
Yes you have to neck turn! Well I think that's what I'm seeing!
Neck turning is a common part of wildcat case forming, especially if any part of the new neck is where the original case shoulder or body was. Case body wall thickness varies considerably from one brand to another.
Looks like that’s what you need here. At least you’ll get very consistent neck thickness out of the deal.
It’s a shame a little more thought wasn’t put into the specs for this chamber to allow for that variation in formed neck thickness.
Yeah neckturning is a must…6.5 Creedmoor RP and Hornady brass are the only two I’ve converted that haven’t required neck turning…also 6mmGT
I found that Blackhills 6.5 Creed also doesn't need neck turning
Solid advice. My Dead Air Primal is being held for contempt. I might have it by August / September time frame. I preset the gas block per instructions but I think I'm trying too hard to get the rifle into service. I have "one or two" others that I can shoot. The 8.6 can wait.
I got to shoot my primal for the first time today with my 8.6 subs. It was such a let down, I need to try it outmore, but I'm kicking myself.
It was quite loud. I understand its substantially overbored, but my 5.56 can on a 11.5 shouldn't be noticeably quieter than subsonic 8.6 in the primal.
Is it possible that the loads weren’t subsonic? I know that depending on elevation that can change.
I was chronographing them and they were at 1045ish. This has been a reliable load with 270gr eldx and 17 gr of CFE BLK.
I played around with the primal on my .308 as well with a 30 cal end cap and just felt really let down. I'm looking at a single shot 45-70 before I write off the primal completely.
With the pork chops out now I don't think I would have even considered the primal, but I fell for the hype of the primal. I wish Q had a more cohesive roll out when a can takes almost a year to get.
I would recommend the Rugged Alaskan 360 and 360ti over the pork chop. Better company with a better can. My 8.6 setup is fairly quiet using a Gemtech 9mm suppressor and JK Armament Form1 can bored out to 9mm. I manufacture the ammo for resale so I have a lot of time behind this round and it can suppress well. I have a video of one of my customer’s shooting my ammo through his Remington 700 with a 9mm suppressor and it’s suppressing well. 285gr ELD-M, 300gr SMK’s, and 350gr Maker Rex all shoot well.
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Yeah, I should clarify that my 8.6 is a 12" bolt gun and my 11.5" AR chambered in 5.56 is running a huxwrx 556 ti. I'll definiately be playing around with the powders. I'm going to try coking up the primal more as that might improve the performance per deadair.
Yeah getting carbon buildup should help. 8”x1.6” suppressor is PLENTY big and size is the can isn’t all that there is to it. It’s also the design aspect and how well it retards gas.
I have no experience with that suppressor, but dropping the powder charge to lower the speed a bit should help some. In pretty much all my subsonic load (across a whole bunch of different cartridges) 1,000 fps is noticeably quieter than ~1,050-ish. And if you drop that back down to the low 900's it'll be quieter yet.
It depends on air temperature and pressure of course, but that range between ~950 and 1,050 fps has a definite correlation with how loud the suppressed shot sounds.
I wouldn't count on carbon buildup to do much of anything significant. Whether it actually makes a difference is debatable but IMO it's mostly about perception and becoming used to how your can sounds. A lot of people have unreasonable expectations for suppressor sound, and need some time to adjust to it.
But if a guy has a shorty 5.56 suppressed already and it's quieter than the new can with subs in a bolt action - then yeah I'd be super disappointed in that new can too. Perception is one thing, but if it's louder than a suppressed shorty 5.56 in direct comparison, that's a whole other thing.
Some suppressors do just suck. Most of the industry has better suppressors now than 10-15-20 years ago, but even just recently we've had all these people building "solvent trap" suppressors that are heavy and loud, and a few companies even churning out similar products as completed cans. Crappy suppressors are still out there, and maybe this is one of them?
Recently decided to fall down the 8.6blk rabbit hole. Have been following this thread, and seeing what seems to be working well for others.
.
Here’s what’s worked for me, and what hasn’t.
.
I’ve had great success with converting Hornady .243 & 6.5CM brass. Neck wall thickness comes out right where I want it.
.
Good results with Accurate 1680 powder.
.
Good results with Barnes TTSX 160gr, and 185gr bullets. Also with Sierra Match King 300gr bullets.
.
Issues I’ve ran into. Converting Lake City 308 brass. As others have mentioned necks have to be turned. My issue was using my Hornady Neck Turner the brass wouldn’t fit on the .338 mandrel. Thought I found a way around turning the necks after wasting $1000+ dollars buying brass on gun broker that’s converted from lake city without having the necks turned, and supposed to be ready to load. That didn’t work out well.
( Search 2A_CaliGuy on YouTube to see what I mean)
However the idea of reaming the necks got me thinking. So I ordered a custom ground reamer, and decided to try again.
.
My new process for converting my Lake City 308 is.
.
Anneal all brass first.
(1.) Size all brass with RCBS 308 FL small base sizing die in station 1 on Dillon CP-2000.
(2.) Swage dreaded Crimps on station 2.
(3.) Size using 8.6 FL sizing die in station 4.
(On the CP-2000 the 8.6 is too short to be in station 3, and requires the short trim tool head
)
(4.) Trim using Trim die, and RT-1500 in station 6 (Trimmer manifold blocks station 5.)
(5.) Chamfer/Debur.
(6.) Expanded Case mouth using 8.6blk Expander from LEE die in sacrificial LEE Beowulf die.
(7.) Ream Case Mouth using custom Reamer.
(8.) Turn Necks now that they fit the darn Hornady Mandrel.
(9.) FL Size in an 8.6 die with expander removed.
(10.) Load and check in Sheridan Split Gauge.
(11.) Shoot, and hope to have a more pleasant time reloading now that the hard parts been done.
.
So you may ask why on earth I’d want to go through all the trouble to make some brass. Simple LC 308 brass here is $0.10ea, but Hornady .243/6.5cm is hard to find once fired, and is usually $0.50+ ea. New Hornady brass because has been close to $1 ea. I haven’t seen any 250pc , 2000pc Hornady available for a long time. Don’t get me wrong if I could find Bulk Hornady brass I’d take that route. Also I found out I could fit 500 loaded 300gr SMK rounds in the plastic ammo cans from Walmart if I stack them ridiculously neatly. What free time, and dedication will do to a guy.
.
Anyways I’ve got some videos of my chronograph results, and some videos on my process on YouTube. My username is the same as my channel name.
.
Here’s what’s worked for me, and what hasn’t.
.
I’ve had great success with converting Hornady .243 & 6.5CM brass. Neck wall thickness comes out right where I want it.
.
Good results with Accurate 1680 powder.
.
Good results with Barnes TTSX 160gr, and 185gr bullets. Also with Sierra Match King 300gr bullets.
.
Issues I’ve ran into. Converting Lake City 308 brass. As others have mentioned necks have to be turned. My issue was using my Hornady Neck Turner the brass wouldn’t fit on the .338 mandrel. Thought I found a way around turning the necks after wasting $1000+ dollars buying brass on gun broker that’s converted from lake city without having the necks turned, and supposed to be ready to load. That didn’t work out well.
( Search 2A_CaliGuy on YouTube to see what I mean)
However the idea of reaming the necks got me thinking. So I ordered a custom ground reamer, and decided to try again.
.
My new process for converting my Lake City 308 is.
.
Anneal all brass first.
(1.) Size all brass with RCBS 308 FL small base sizing die in station 1 on Dillon CP-2000.
(2.) Swage dreaded Crimps on station 2.
(3.) Size using 8.6 FL sizing die in station 4.
(On the CP-2000 the 8.6 is too short to be in station 3, and requires the short trim tool head
)(4.) Trim using Trim die, and RT-1500 in station 6 (Trimmer manifold blocks station 5.)
(5.) Chamfer/Debur.
(6.) Expanded Case mouth using 8.6blk Expander from LEE die in sacrificial LEE Beowulf die.
(7.) Ream Case Mouth using custom Reamer.
(8.) Turn Necks now that they fit the darn Hornady Mandrel.
(9.) FL Size in an 8.6 die with expander removed.
(10.) Load and check in Sheridan Split Gauge.
(11.) Shoot, and hope to have a more pleasant time reloading now that the hard parts been done.
.
So you may ask why on earth I’d want to go through all the trouble to make some brass. Simple LC 308 brass here is $0.10ea, but Hornady .243/6.5cm is hard to find once fired, and is usually $0.50+ ea. New Hornady brass because has been close to $1 ea. I haven’t seen any 250pc , 2000pc Hornady available for a long time. Don’t get me wrong if I could find Bulk Hornady brass I’d take that route. Also I found out I could fit 500 loaded 300gr SMK rounds in the plastic ammo cans from Walmart if I stack them ridiculously neatly
. What free time, and dedication will do to a guy..
Anyways I’ve got some videos of my chronograph results, and some videos on my process on YouTube. My username is the same as my channel name.
Attachments
About the time all of us crazies have figured this out, Starline, Hornady or Lapua will come out with brass for it...Recently decided to fall down the 8.6blk rabbit hole. Have been following this thread, and seeing what seems to be working well for others.
.
Here’s what’s worked for me, and what hasn’t.
.
I’ve had great success with converting Hornady .243 & 6.5CM brass. Neck wall thickness comes out right where I want it.
.
Good results with Accurate 1680 powder.
.
Good results with Barnes TTSX 160gr, and 185gr bullets. Also with Sierra Match King 300gr bullets.
.
Issues I’ve ran into. Converting Lake City 308 brass. As others have mentioned necks have to be turned. My issue was using my Hornady Neck Turner the brass wouldn’t fit on the .338 mandrel. Thought I found a way around turning the necks after wasting $1000+ dollars buying brass on gun broker that’s converted from lake city without having the necks turned, and supposed to be ready to load. That didn’t work out well.
( Search 2A_CaliGuy on YouTube to see what I mean)
However the idea of reaming the necks got me thinking. So I ordered a custom ground reamer, and decided to try again.
.
My new process for converting my Lake City 308 is.
.
Anneal all brass first.
(1.) Size all brass with RCBS 308 FL small base sizing die in station 1 on Dillon CP-2000.
(2.) Swage dreaded Crimps on station 2.
(3.) Size using 8.6 FL sizing die in station 4.
(On the CP-2000 the 8.6 is too short to be in station 3, and requires the short trim tool head
(4.) Trim using Trim die, and RT-1500 in station 6 (Trimmer manifold blocks station 5.)
(5.) Chamfer/Debur.
(6.) Expanded Case mouth using 8.6blk Expander from LEE die in sacrificial LEE Beowulf die.
(7.) Ream Case Mouth using custom Reamer.
(8.) Turn Necks now that they fit the darn Hornady Mandrel.
(9.) FL Size in an 8.6 die with expander removed.
(10.) Load and check in Sheridan Split Gauge.
(11.) Shoot, and hope to have a more pleasant time reloading now that the hard parts been done.
.
So you may ask why on earth I’d want to go through all the trouble to make some brass. Simple LC 308 brass here is $0.10ea, but Hornady .243/6.5cm is hard to find once fired, and is usually $0.50+ ea. New Hornady brass because has been close to $1 ea. I haven’t seen any 250pc , 2000pc Hornady available for a long time. Don’t get me wrong if I could find Bulk Hornady brass I’d take that route. Also I found out I could fit 500 loaded 300gr SMK rounds in the plastic ammo cans from Walmart if I stack them ridiculously neatly
.
Anyways I’ve got some videos of my chronograph results, and some videos on my process on YouTube. My username is the same as my channel name.
I doubt it. Hornady already replied to a fellow forum member that they do not intend on supporting the 8.6 Blackout. Starline is having a hard time keeping up with demand and Lapua doesn’t see the benefit to supporting a niche caliber that isn’t mainstream or widely supported especially in Finland.
Right, but by then something else will come out that will drive us back to forming.
I saw the replies, and I get it. Why make a new brass when they’re still selling everything they can make as fast as they make it. Playing with the .338s has me looking at 338 RazorBack now
. They look way easier to form 
It’s for a gas gun…only thing is it’s strictly subsonic…which might be fine for most anyways.
For a strictly subsonic round, a .358 caliber of some sort has a lot more versatility than the .338. At least if you intend to kill stuff with it. A 35 cal gives you access to a huge range of bullets from lightweight pistol stuff (as low as ~60gr) all the way up to heavy rifle (300+gr), and a lot of the pistol bullets are already designed to work right at subsonic speeds.
Just sayin...
I think it’s the BC values that make the .338 a good option. Most want to hunt to the limits of maybe 200 yards or slightly beyond. I think maybe that’s where the 8.6 shines…at least from what I’ve personally experienced with it.
I'm sure that's what a lot of people think, but it's not reality. B.c. has very little effect on subsonic trajectory; different than with high velocity rounds. The trajectory is almost entirely determined by the muzzle velocity. Trajectory of a 230gr .45 Auto at 1,000 fps and a 300gr .338 at 1,000 fps are remarkably similar.
In other words, even though the .338 generally has higher b.c. values, for a subsonic cartridge it matters not at all. On the other hand, having bullets that actually expand or otherwise perform well for killing meat does matter, and the .338 is extremely limited in that regard.
The BC value is important for carrying energy as well as velocity. The higher the BC the less effected the projectile is in flight and retains more velocity which carry’s more energy. For example a .338 300gr with a .7 G1 BC vs a blunt shaped 300gr .338 with a .5 G1 BC. Which one drops more and which one carry's more energy. What .358 caliber in a short action do you recommend will carry a 350gr Maker Rex Expanding Subsonic as well as the 8.6 Blackout? Just curious…is there a 350gr+ Expanding bullet in a .358?
Yes I’m very familiar with what ballistic coefficient is and what it does. I’m not new to this by any means.
The effect of b.c on both drop and energy is MUCH lower at subsonic speeds than it is at typical rifle velocities. Much lower than it sounds like you’ve been led to believe. If you use a ballistic solver that works correctly at subsonic velocity (some do, some don’t; read the literature), or better yet go do some real life comparisons, I think you’ll be surprised.
And retained energy means nothing if the bullet isn’t able to release it in an animal. That’s kind of my entire point. And in a subsonic hunting projectile you don’t want a long streamlined bullet with a thin point, you want blunt wide noses with big hollow points or at least a flat nose.
Which round to use depends on the rifle. The old 35 Remington actually works very well for heavy subsonics, and fits a standard.473” bolt face despite its oddball case head size; I’ve killed a number of deer with it using my own cast/coated 255gr hollow point.
In a lever gun, the 38 Special can handle heavy bullets surprisingly well when loaded out to 357 Mag OAL. Or there’s the 350 Legend with the factory subsonic loads for guys who prefer that route.
Another option is the old 357 Herett, if a guy wanted to use a Contender or convert a lever gun. Or go with a modified version of that like my 358 Herett wildcat, that's the 6.8 SPC case necked up and shortened, using modified 357 Herett dies. I designed that one to be like the Blackout in that it works for both subsonic and supersonic loads, and it works well with that same 255gr hollow point I mentioned above. That's mostly an AR15 round, but should work in any bolt gun (Ruger American?) that's sold in 6.8 SPC.
I do, I use multi-BC calculators and even verify it by shooting it ofcourse. Do you have any experience with Maker Rex expanding subs? (I’m not trying to be snarky here) They expand down well below what “most” expanding subsonics do which is where the magic happens in them…a 1.8” to 2” diameter 350gr broadhead. You never answered my original question though…What .358 cal bullet that’s 350gr +/- exists that expands at subsonic velocity? I’ll help…nothing…at least to my knowledge.
And since we’re talking about energy, I’m comparing a 350gr “expander” to other similarly in weight projectiles and can’t find anything that bests it at the moment. let me articulate, since there’s a lack of velocity you now have to make up for it with weight, and bullet design to not only carry more energy but also terminal performance. Paul created these bullets to do just that and Gorilla can’t even come close because they can’t figure out how to get a heavy expander to stay together above 900 fps so they use an inferior fracturing design which doesn’t really achieve the terminal performance of the Maker Rex. To your “255gr cast-coated bullet”, got any elk kills with it? The 8.6 does. Energy is fairly close to a 44mag. Only without the brick-like external ballistics. Speaking of 44mag, it’s claimed some Elk as well. I won’t comment on the 350 legend other than it’s great for its purpose but…find me a better alternative to the 8.6 blackout with very heavy expanding projectiles that feeds well in a short action and large frame gas-gun and I’m all ears. That 357 Herett sounds interesting though. I have thousands of 6.8 SPC cases.
I have a buddy who fancies a .358 Win, he’s running 225gr at Supersonic velocities. 8.6 can do that too….if we’re talking versatility I’d say that covers it pretty well too.
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Valid point. For me it’s more of a collector thing. The slower twist in the 338 Spectre, and Razorback let you use lower cost .338 bullets than the 8.6. Plus brass is cheap/easy to convert. I’ve been having fun with my 8.6.
So I have been searching for 8.6 BLK reloading data utilizing CFE BLK powder. Don't judge I like to utilize the least amount of powders to reload the most amount of guns. For example I use CFE 223 for my 223, 308, and 6.5 Grendel. I use CFE BLK for 300 AAC as well as 7.62x39. Unable to find anything for the 8.6, I decided to work up my own load. I have a Faxon 16" barrel with an Aero Precision bolt, upper, and lower. Aero Precision Adjustable gas block as well. Brass was new Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass, annealed, sized with 308 die first, then 8.6 BLK die, then trim die, finally neck turned. Trimmed to 1.683". I tried other brands of brass, and even with neck turning they did not turn out as well as Hornady. I decided to go with Hornady 185 CX bullets. Primers are Fiocchi Large Rifle. They were the only primers I could find for regular price and not have to sell first born child for. Looking at the powder burn chart, CFE BLK is a slower burning powder than Accurate 1680, but it is close in the overall powder burn chart. Faxon recommends 32.6 GRNS of Accurate 1680 would get a 185 grain bullet going around 2,200 FPS. I decided to start with CFE BLK at least 10% lower in chart weight than Accurate 1680. I started at 29.0 grains CFE BLK and worked up in 2 shot intervals 0.3 grains for each 2 shots up to 34.7 grains. COL was 2.670". I seen an occasional primer along the way that appeared to be flattened. My guess reading other forums is the AR is over gassed given that I did not close the adjustable block at all. Either that or there is a potential headspace issue. I checked all rounds with a case gauge and everything appeared to be okay. Ejection pattern on brass started in the 5:00 position at 29.0 and ended in about the 2:00 position at 34.7. The last 4 shots 34.4 to 34.7 were showing flattened primers and visible extractor marks on the brass. The recoil on those last 4 was definitely heavier than I am used to as well shooting many AR15's and AR10's previously. You can tell when you've shot enough gas guns if the round is too hot. My plan is to back off 1 full grain where the very visible signs of pressure are seen so that should have it around 2220 FPS. I've attached my chronograph data. This is for information only and should not be utilized by others as safe proven published loads. Use with caution. Each individual should safely work up their own loads.
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No, that's not what you asked.
I answered the question you actually asked, assuming you meant "cartridge" instead of "caliber" and just didn't know any better. My bad for thinking you were interested in a real discussion, instead of just arguing to defend your favorite caliber; I'm not interested in that kind of juvenile argument. You're the one who mentioned a different subsonic only cartridge than the 8.6...
Out of curiosity has anyone here used the IDOD to turn inner/outer necks when converting 308 to 8.6blk?
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I’ve been checking it out over on Fclass.
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Also when making brass from 308 how much do you touch the shoulder when neck turning. I’ve found if I don’t actually slightly go into the shoulder with a 30 degree cutter I have occasional issues. Even after I take them off my CP-2000, and bump the shoulders on a rock chucker there’s still a few that when loaded are tight in my Sheridan gauge. If possible please post pics of what your neck turned converted 308 look like
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I’ve been checking it out over on Fclass.
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Also when making brass from 308 how much do you touch the shoulder when neck turning. I’ve found if I don’t actually slightly go into the shoulder with a 30 degree cutter I have occasional issues. Even after I take them off my CP-2000, and bump the shoulders on a rock chucker there’s still a few that when loaded are tight in my Sheridan gauge. If possible please post pics of what your neck turned converted 308 look like
Firstly, this is an 8.6 Blackout forum why you felt the need to take the conversation to a whole other slew of calibers and cartridges is beyond me. I can’t see anywhere where anyone here asked you “hey Yondering, what do you recommend over the 8.6 Blackout or the 338 Razorback?”
My message was in response to dnchrist’s question about the 338 Razorback…which is a small frame AR15 wildcat cartridge that only came up in conversation on the 8.6 Blackout Reloading Page right? Are you tracking now or do I have to doodle it for you? You replied that a .358 cal is more versatile…once again he’s asking a specific question about the 338 Razorback. So what I should have done instead of going back and forth with the idiot of the hide was call you out for it but instead I replied to; “For a strictly subsonic round, a .358 caliber of some sort has a lot more versatility than the .338. At least if you intend to kill stuff with it. A 35 cal gives you access to a huge range of bullets from lightweight pistol stuff (as low as ~60gr) all the way up to heavy rifle (300+gr), and a lot of the pistol bullets are already designed to work right at subsonic speeds.”
My follow up reply was “I think it’s the BC values that make the .338 a good option”…and from there it snowballed into BC values argument blah blah blah. On that note yes BC values still matter even in subsonics because they do have an impact even in subsonic form just as much as it does in supersonic form. As in it matters for trajectory and carrying energy and you then reply with some asinine comparison between a 45cal 230gr and a .338cal 300gr having a “remarkably similar” trajectory. Ok let’s do the math, a 45ACP as you stated pushing a 230gr XTP with a G1 BC of .188 at 1050 fps vs an 8.6 Blackout pushing a 300gr SMK with a .750 G1 BC at 1050. A 45ACP with the above mentioned BC’s at 700ft ASL with a 50y zero drops approximately 143” at 300y. An 8.6B with the above mentioned BC’s at the same 700ft ASL with a 50y zero drops 118” at 300y. The energy difference is remarkably different at that range as well. 340 ft lbs to the 45ACP at 300y vs the 8.6B delivering 594 ft lbs at that same distance. How are those two remarkably similar? The BC I used for my above example was for the lowest published number by Sierra which I verified by taking the chronographed velocity of the projectile at 100y and the muzzle velocity, and entering that data into JBM ballistics to calculate the true BC value. So your statement about ballistic coefficient not mattering at subsonic velocities is FALSE…especially in your example.
You then make reference to retained energy and lethality in the following paragraph and it makes me wonder if you’re still comparing the 45acp to the .338cal no cartridge whatever you posted because you couldn’t think of anything that pushes a .338cal 300gr projectile in that comparison you made by ending it with the .338cal being limited in that regard to which I replied “What .358 caliber in a short action do you recommend will carry a 350gr Maker Rex Expanding Subsonic as well as the 8.6 Blackout? Just curious…is there a 350gr Expanding bullet in a .358?” and I should have added, “that a .358cal projectile will fit and stabilize in a 35 Remington chambered rifle” to the tail end of that question.
Then you shift to the 35 Remington and you go into a tangent about how your coated 255gr cast bullets successfully killed some deer or whatever and 38SPL bullshit this and 350 Legend that and 357 Herett with 255gr bullets as if anyone cared to hear what your opinion was on anything other than what this thread was about. I never mentioned anything about any cartridge other than 8.6 except to reply to dnchrist’s question before your senile ranting. Ive seen you all over the hide and it seems to me that you’re projecting when you make stupid statements about others not interested in a “real discussion” because you’re the ONLY one that brought up anything outside this threads subject matter as if you matter so much to this forum…well here’s the truth…you’re the idiot of the hide.
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Calm down, Francis. That's quite the rant with a lot of pent up anger, all because I answered the question that you asked. The anger and insults are uncalled for; you've got some issues dude.
I agree with the .013” neck wall thickness. I started neck turning certain brands of brass like Federal and Peterson’s to make it work and after checking with a ball micrometer it seems like .013” is the right number to go for.
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