ZzzzCalm down, Francis. That's quite the rant with a lot of pent up anger, all because I answered the question that you asked. The anger and insults are uncalled for; you've got some issues dude.
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ZzzzCalm down, Francis. That's quite the rant with a lot of pent up anger, all because I answered the question that you asked. The anger and insults are uncalled for; you've got some issues dude.
Appreciate it. I’m going to get back to working on my 308 brass. I have so much, and it’s so cheap around here. I was worried about getting into the shoulders when turning the necks. I’ll have to adjust the bump. I have so many shell holders for this, and have found that they’re not all quite the same. I’ll have to take some measurements, and experiment a little.I use Federal small primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass. I don't turn the neck ID, except for the trim chamfer. I let the sizer die with expander take care of that. Make sure your case is bumped properly and trimmed to proper length before neck sizing, because getting into the shoulder REALLY weakens the case. I use a feeler gauge to set the cutter to 0.013. This could vary on other brass cases. The round, with projectile inserted, should just drop in and fall out. Be careful of little dings on the cartridge base causing it to stick. Another thing to think about is spring back. I anneal before cutting or sizing, but some brass still likes to spring back. I hold the case under pressure for a few seconds before releasing when sizing. View attachment 8091761
Looks like I’m going to grab a set of Hornady dies. Right now I’m using a Lee set, and I’m not a fan of the small ring it occasionally leaves on my match kings! I also had to tighten the hell out of my expander. The necks coming off in the chamber was my worry as well. May be best to scrap them as a learning experience, and avoid having to remove one from the barrel .Be careful using the weak shoulders! I was able to wiggle some of mine (where I had gone into the shoulder) with a pliers and break them off. Scary! I use a LEE sizer, which takes a lot of tightening on the expander or it will move around. I polished the expander before using, and lube the inside occasionally and the outside a lot, because it is a one pass job. I use RCBS-2 baby snot liberally on a pad and roll each case in it. If they are slimy and slippery to hold on to, you are doing it right! Do Not Stop half way through a pull, or you will be hammering a stuck case out of the die. Monitor the top of the shaft in the die to verify the expander/primer puncher is not moving. If it is, tighten some more. It takes a LOT! Cases are cleaned again after sizing, trimming and neck turning to remove grit and RCBS-2 lube. I use a Hornady seater, because it is more versitile with pointy tips - it leaves fewer marks. I do a slight crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die.
With the KM kit you can go two ways. You can get the expander and use the standard pilot size or if you use their custom pilot negative .050 then you use your own dies. I have the second one but it doesn’t always work because it’s still tight with certain brass brands so I’d order their negative .060 or .055 pilot. Get the 33degree cutter and that kisses the neck and shoulder junction and looks seem less.Appreciate it. I’m going to get back to working on my 308 brass. I have so much, and it’s so cheap around here. I was worried about getting into the shoulders when turning the necks. I’ll have to adjust the bump. I have so many shell holders for this, and have found that they’re not all quite the same. I’ll have to take some measurements, and experiment a little.
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Do you expand with the 8.6 die, and if you don’t mind me asking what brand die. I’ve been looking into getting a K&M expanding die, and neck turner.
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.013 is definitely the magic number. I’m planning to shoot some of my converted 308 rounds this weekend. Sadly I went into the shoulder on all of them
I like the idea I getting the negative pilot. How do I go about that. On their site I only see the 3 standard ones. The cutting, carbide, and steel.With the KM kit you can go two ways. You can get the expander and use the standard pilot size or if you use their custom pilot negative .050 then you use your own dies. I have the second one but it doesn’t always work because it’s still tight with certain brass brands so I’d order their negative .060 or .055 pilot. Get the 33degree cutter and that kisses the neck and shoulder junction and looks seem less.
On the main site, hover over Neck Tools and a drop-down will appear. Click on Neck Tools and Accessories, then click on Neck Turning Pilot - sized for bullet tension. It’s there. I orders the .050 and it’s still slightly tight sometimes with federal, Winchester, and Peterson’s.I like the idea I getting the negative pilot. How do I go about that. On their site I only see the 3 standard ones. The cutting, carbide, and steel.
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That’s the issue I have with my Hornady neck turner. The brass after sizing is near impossible to get onto the pilot. That’s why I was teaming to .340 then neck turning, and going into a Lee sizing die with the expander removed .
Thanks. I’ll post an update after I get mine. I’m going to order both, and an expanding die from them. I’m 99% sure I want the V2-2.On the main site, hover over Neck Tools and a drop-down will appear. Click on Neck Tools and Accessories, then click on Neck Turning Pilot - sized for bullet tension. It’s there. I orders the .050 and it’s still slightly tight sometimes with federal, Winchester, and Peterson’s.
Oh almost forgot to mention. If you do order the neck turner and power adapter. Definitely get the ergo holder, it’ll save your hands. Also get the power grip but make sure when you tighten the set screw your either really tighten it down or dimple the power adapter where the set screw snugs up against to keep the power grip from loosening.Thanks. I’ll post an update after I get mine. I’m going to order both, and an expanding die from them. I’m 99% sure I want the V2-2.
Thanks again I really appreciate all the advice!
Oh almost forgot to mention. If you do order the neck turner and power adapter. Definitely get the ergo holder, it’ll save your hands. Also get the power grip but make sure when you tighten the set screw your either really tighten it down or dimple the power adapter where the set screw snugs up against to keep the power grip from loosening.
I was looking at the ergo holder. All in all even with the price of all the K&M stuff if I’m able to convert $0.10 brass to 8.6 plus not have headstamps it will be well worth it!On my RCBS pilot, I chucked it in my lathe and turned it JUST ENOUGH to get the case to spin on it. That way, if there is something inside the brass, it will clear it, but otherwise, makes turning easy because the holder keeps the case steady.
What brass are you converting?I was looking at the ergo holder. All in all even with the price of all the K&M stuff if I’m able to convert $0.10 brass to 8.6 plus not have headstamps it will be well worth it!
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I’m really glad I found SnipersHide. Thank you again!
Lake City 308. I made a bunch using Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass, and they work great. However considering the price difference I’d like to use my bulk 308 brass laying around.What brass are you converting?
I’m assuming because it’s thicker brass it’ll be better for subsonics.What brass are you converting?
Yes it translates well for that purpose.Are you thinking that thicker brass means less capacity, which means better powder fill with less powder, which means consistant POI shooting?
Are you thinking that thicker brass means less capacity, which means better powder fill with less powder, which means consistant POI shooting?
I’m not trying to improve anything by using LC308 brass. I’m just trying to avoid paying $1 per case, and use all the brass I have laying aroundThat's basically proof of what I just said. You're seeing way less than 1 fps difference in ES, but think it's significant? That's pretty much the same discussion as worrying about b.c. for 200 yard shots. I never said there was no difference in either one, I said these are not significant factors.
Some people have trouble separating technical minutiae from significant factors in reality. It's called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Don't worry about trying to use the heaviest headstamps to improve consistency. Use whatever brass is available to you that has consistent weights (whatever that weight may be, light or heavy) and forms well, and put your focus on consistent forming, annealing, and neck turning. Those are things that actually show significant improvement. The 8.6 Blk is not unique or special in this regard; the same considerations apply to forming 8.6 as to a host of other wildcats used for subsonic loads.
The attached pics aren’t an example of one method over the other or one brass brand over the other or the results of one over the other. I can include those. Those reflect around 13-15 fps spread. What I attached is how consistent these loads are with my method of brass prep and loading used...which proves my statement true especially for the 8.6 which is what we’re here for.That's basically proof of what I just said. You're seeing way less than 1 fps difference in ES, but think it's significant? That's pretty much the same discussion as worrying about b.c. for 200 yard shots. I never said there was no difference in either one, I said these are not significant factors.
Some people have trouble separating technical minutiae from significant factors in reality. It's called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Don't worry about trying to use the heaviest headstamps to improve consistency. Use whatever brass is available to you that has consistent weights (whatever that weight may be, light or heavy) and forms well, and put your focus on consistent forming, annealing, and neck turning. Those are things that actually show significant improvement. The 8.6 Blk is not unique or special in this regard; the same considerations apply to forming 8.6 as to a host of other wildcats used for subsonic loads.
Get over yourself dude. I'm not acting condescending or like I'm the only one who knows anything here; you're just one of those people who can't handle someone else having a different opinion so you're trying to turn everything into an argument. It's not helpful to the thread topic or anyone else here. If you're such a big man, let it go instead of continually picking at it. I've ignored your insults so far because your behavior here is a reflection of you, not me.The attached pics aren’t an example of one method over the other or one brass brand over the other or the results of one over the other. I can include those. Those reflect around 13-15 fps spread. What I attached is how consistent these loads are with my method of brass prep and loading used...which proves my statement true especially for the 8.6 which is what we’re here for.
You talk as if you’re the only guy on here that knows anything about ballistics yet you’re the same guy who used the 45acp vs .338 as an example to an argument over ballistic coefficients not mattering in subsonics. The difference was big enough that it was noticeable. Stop with the condescending “another fallacy” talk because no one here actually cares about your opinions and quips . I doubt you’re here for the thread’s subject matter. And for you to have “proven your point” I would have had to not know what you were talking about…in other words, you didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know. If you don’t have anything constructive to add to this specific thread than I suggest you go elsewhere because they’re not handing out any awards here for your knowledge, opinions, or witty remarks.
I’m not trying to improve anything by using LC308 brass. I’m just trying to avoid paying $1 per case, and use all the brass I have laying around
You’re talking about ignoring insults as if you’re not taking part in the stone throwing…stop playing the victim. “Others opinions as you so state I have a problem with stop becoming opinions when they start including terms or statements like in posts #519, #521, and #533.Get over yourself dude. I'm not acting condescending or like I'm the only one who knows anything here; you're just one of those people who can't handle someone else having a different opinion so you're trying to turn everything into an argument. It's not helpful to the thread topic or anyone else here. If you're such a big man, let it go instead of continually picking at it. I've ignored your insults so far because your behavior here is a reflection of you, not me.
And please quit trying to pretend I've said there are no differences in these things we're discussing. That's a straw man argument.
What I did say was that the differences aren't big enough to matter. Heavy brass vs light brass or high b.c. vs low b.c. are way way down the list of significance when we're talking about 200 yard subsonic loads. Heck just changing temperature conditions has more effect than either of those things with most of the powders we're using for subs. Both of those things ARE significant for full power high velocity loads, but that wasn't the discussion.
You’re talking about ignoring insults as if you’re not taking part in the stone throwing…stop playing the victim. “Others opinions as you so state I have a problem with stop becoming opinions when they start including terms or statements like in posts #519, #521, and #533.
“Trajectory of a 230gr .45 Auto at 1,000 fps and a 300gr .338 at 1,000 fps are remarkably similar.
In other words, even though the .338 generally has higher b.c. values, for a subsonic cartridge it matters not at all“…your words not mine. Stop trying to back peddle and own up to what you put out. I don’t want to have to keep bringing up your posts to make a point…just stop talking down to others on these forums with your sarcastic little terms like “I’m sure that’s what a lot of people think but it’s not reality” and “I answered the question you actually asked, assuming you meant "cartridge" instead of "caliber" and just didn't know any better. My bad for thinking you were interested in a real discussion, instead of just arguing to defend your favorite caliber” and there’s plenty more…you’re not gaining my attention when you make statements like you have been. You give more importance to what you have to say over everyone else because you in fact can’t handle other’s opinions…stop projecting. my point is you get what you give. I’m done.
I moved on.
Please point out one spot where I called you names (as you did to me) or any other insult... It isn't there. The things in bold above are truth, not insults. You obviously took offense instead of thinking about whether they were accurate or not.
So in other words, you took offense because I said something you disagreed with. Then you got all snarky and angry because I talked about a different caliber than your favorite. Your snarky attitude was the start of all this; remember that. And BTW, maybe you don't realize that this board sends email notifications when someone posts a new comment - before you went back and edited them - so I've seen the things you actually said before you decided to tame them down for the forum. You spend a lot of time reacting in anger without thinking.
How about you let it go and we can get back to discussing the 8.6 Blk without you trying to turn everything I say into an argument. You know, like mature adults?
I have one coming MondayMoving on.
Back on track, I have a 1:6.5 twist barrel ordered and am looking forward to how it handles the heavies. Also play with some supers. Hopefully won’t gut my can like some have unfortunately experienced.
I would suspect it’s marketing hype. Both manufacturers at Mos-Tek and Maker agree that the 1:6.5 is plenty to stabilize even the 350gr Maker Rex. I will soon find out, it looks like I’ll be getting mine in sooner than Monday. It’s for a Sig Cross so it’s a little bit different but not much.Did I miss the part where Q gave a reason (with numbers) as to why they picked that twist rate over a normal one? I must have slept through it. So far the only benefits I have seen is it will destroy certain projectiles...
I would suspect it’s marketing hype. Both the manufacturer at Mos-Tek and Maker both agree that the 1:6.5 is plenty to stabilize even the 350gr Maker Rex. I will soon find out, it looks like I’llbe getting mine in sooner than Monday. It’s for a Sig Cross so it’s a little bit different but not much.
So far H110 has been good for me. I also used a1680 and IMR4227. I’m pretty sure all the 300 Blk powders are suitable. I prefer ball powders for easier metering. I don’t have CFEBLK but I’ve had good luck with that powder in 300 BLK.I ordered a 7 twist 16.5" Bartlein for the 350gr Maker.
Very curious what powder you land on if you intend to shoot that bullet. CFEBLK seems like a decent option for a bolt gun subs. Trailboss is nowhere to be seen.
Your 1:7 should be fine based on stability calculator and what Paul at Maker said.I ordered a 7 twist 16.5" Bartlein for the 350gr Maker.
Very curious what powder you land on if you intend to shoot that bullet. CFEBLK seems like a decent option for a bolt gun subs. Trailboss is nowhere to be seen.
I forgot to mention,I ordered a 7 twist 16.5" Bartlein for the 350gr Maker.
Very curious what powder you land on if you intend to shoot that bullet. CFEBLK seems like a decent option for a bolt gun subs. Trailboss is nowhere to be seen.
who did you order that Bartlein from?I ordered a 7 twist 16.5" Bartlein for the 350gr Maker.
Very curious what powder you land on if you intend to shoot that bullet. CFEBLK seems like a decent option for a bolt gun subs. Trailboss is nowhere to be seen.
I felt insulted just READING your posts. I get it you have been doing this a long time. I'm 76. In this country every one is allowed, good or bad, to have an opinion. Just agree to disagree, and MOVE ON!
Which target is which barrel? What distance, load etc? Come’on man!Ok ladies and gentlemen…I have here, an Sig Cross outfitted with an 8.6 Blackout barrel. So far so good, it is a little less forgiving if you don’t bump shoulders and neck turn so your brass game has to be on point though. I have two barrels in testing at the moment…a Faxon 1:3 that’s been modified to work for the Sig Cross and a Mos-Tek 1:6.5 twist.
I’ve seen this from quite a few people. Your brass neck wall thickness may be too thick (anything over .013”) and or your neck diameter may have expanded when seating the bullet beyond the .366” allowable cartridge print dimension. Your brass neck diameter after sizing should be no larger than .360”. Also it would be good to bump the shoulders back .002” +/- .0005”. I’ve found because the shoulders don’t have a defined corner you get these rounded shoulders that can create an issue when chambering. What brass are you using? I’ve used LC, Peterson’s, Hornady, FC, RP, and Winchester. ALL of them still require some level of neck turning but only the Hornady and RP that I know of, some can get away without doing it.Hello Hide, I have been following this thread for quite some time now. I too have gone down the dark road of 8.6 BLK. Since ammo is so scarce, I have also gone down the road of reloading. Might as well go all the way!!! The issue I am having is, the gun will not close the bolt all the way on the next round, or it will not close, from open lock, all the way on the first round. I took the barrel back out of the upper last night and found that the bolt will not rotate to lock with a round in the chamber, without a lot of force that is. I am using a Sheridan gauge, and all rounds slide in and back out just like they do in the chamber. I am shooting a DPMS AR-10 that originally had a .308 barrel in it. It shot flawlessly in that config. I contacted Faxon, and they said I could send the barrel back to them to check it out. Just wanted to see if someone had any thoughts before I go that route. Thanks.
That’s the 1:6.5 at 80y indoor range. The red target was at 50y with same load but in the 1:3. Two separate days.Which target is which barrel? What distance, load etc? Come’on man!
snark·yGreat job dredging up something that was already dropped by both parties, to tell me to drop it.
It's pathetic when people start treating their favorite cartridge or caliber like a religion; all logic and common sense goes up in smoke.
That's twice now you've defended a guy who got snarky and then flat out insulted me, several times, all for mentioning a different caliber and daring to disagree with him. You think that's justified, but responding to insults with some measured but pointed remarks to him insulted you? You're right that we're all allowed to have an opinion, but you're a class A hypocrite for acting like that doesn't go both ways.
Go kick rocks.
Thanks for the info, and advice. I have a mixed bag of brass. I bought some off the internet. I have neck turned all that I have worked on. The Hornady is the only one I have that did not require turning. All the specs you listed are on par. I am hesitant to get into the shoulder, due to some having the case separate there! I was doing some checking and marked a few pieces of brass with black marker. I put them in the chamber and turned them back and forth. They all left marks where the shoulder meets the neck! So I believe that getting into the shoulder may be the ticket. I also checked the depth of different cases in the chamber, and found them as much as .025” difference. I am measuring off the end of the chamber to a straight edge across the top of the barrel. The brass seems to be very inconsistent. I am using Lee dies to do a final sizing after neck turning and aneling. Not sure why the depth is so different!?!I’ve seen this from quite a few people. Your brass neck wall thickness may be too thick (anything over .013”) and or your neck diameter may have expanded when seating the bullet beyond the .366” allowable cartridge print dimension. Your brass neck diameter after sizing should be no larger than .360”. Also it would be good to bump the shoulders back .002” +/- .0005”. I’ve found because the shoulders don’t have a defined corner you get these rounded shoulders that can create an issue when chambering. What brass are you using? I’ve used LC, Peterson’s, Hornady, FC, RP, and Winchester. ALL of them still require some level of neck turning but only the Hornady and RP that I know of, some can get away without doing it.
Yes, neck wall thickness to be exact.Sorry, I wasn't clear... BRASS thickness? .013 or something maybe?
Which 8.6 dies do you have? I have both the Hornady and the Lee’s. (long story) but I find that the Lee Factory Crimp die is excellent and it compliments the Hornady Sizer and Seater well. I like the Lee sizer but their expander is soft and when I use it to convert brass I’ve noticed that it has a lot of small rough surface scratches on the widest part of the expander. I’ve sent a few of their EZ Expanders to get nitride surface treatment to see if this helps harden enough to prevent this. If anyone’s interested I can get a group together to purchase these to send out additionally. The cost to doing 2 or 20 is the same so this would probably be a great solution for these.I have learned that setting your equipment up for one brand of brass really reaps dividends. Getting into the shoulder will greatly weaken it. Try one that you have turned by grabbing it by the neck with the pliers and giving it a firm twist. Also, make sure your reloaded round passes the Sheridan gauge drop test with the projectile inserted. Does it drop ALL the way in so that the base of the case is in the proper position at the end of the gauge?
Thank you, sir. I wish I would have done some research before I bought the brass. All of the rounds I have loaded pass the gauge test and slide all the way in and out. The Hornaday turning too has a cutter with the same angle as the shoulder taper. I am going to try bumping the necks a bit, and then checking the durability of them before loading. If that doesn't help, I am going to send the barrel back and have them look at it.I have learned that setting your equipment up for one brand of brass really reaps dividends. Getting into the shoulder will greatly weaken it. Try one that you have turned by grabbing it by the neck with the pliers and giving it a firm twist. Also, make sure your reloaded round passes the Sheridan gauge drop test with the projectile inserted. Does it drop ALL the way in so that the base of the case is in the proper position at the end of the gauge?
You can get the barrel throated from .366” to .368 and you’ll fine. Very little cost for that. The Gorilla factory brass is negative .005” - .006” from a go-gauge…You’d be fine bumping .003” - .004” if durable is a concern.Thank you, sir. I wish I would have done some research before I bought the brass. All of the rounds I have loaded pass the gauge test and slide all the way in and out. The Hornaday turning too has a cutter with the same angle as the shoulder taper. I am going to try bumping the necks a bit, and then checking the durability of them before loading. If that doesn't help, I am going to send the barrel back and have them look at it.
I think for converting the LEE sizer is the best option because of the stronger expander ball. So I got in touch with H&M black nitride and they’re going to nitride several LEE sizer dies and I have 4 EZ expanders being nitrided as well. I can doI use a Lee sizer with a polished expander, Hornady seater, Lee factory crimp.
Yes true, i manufacture 8.6 for resale so i have to use a spray lube and i do large quantities of conversions. It’s common for me to do 500 - 600 cases in a day so the dies get used hard.The scratches on my expander were caused by the lack of internal bevel in the case after cutting to length. Once I beveled the case after cutting, the problem went away. I also use liberal amounts of RCBS Case Lube-2 baby snot. It's a pity Lee doesn't use a carbide expander...
Then you haven't tried brass juice yet. Its amazing! I think you’d like it.It seems like every time I try spray lube, I develop new words for my vocabulary while attempting to remove a stuck case without destroying my die! I will continue rolling them in baby snot!