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View thread Contact supportMy reloaded ammo is already in the 4-8SD range (20 shot population) and that is already plenty for my PRS ambitions, however I am trying to push it down a little more, being a little bit concerned with the reddish oxide the Amp annealing leaves inside of the neck ( more present if you anneal after dry tumbling than before )
This thread as well as others I came across here was really helpful in figuring out how to put together something new to try.
First, annealing before cleaning, and cleaning after sizing.
Second, lube the inside of the neck with a mop and some imperial grease like Orkan is doing on YT, before sizing
Third, lube the inside of the neck a-la @CK1.0 before seating
One variation would be to use Lanolin & IPA before sizing, I don’t think it would be substantial.
I’ll see what happens. All in all no drama in terms of workload increase anyway.
Thank you all, the bitching was fun too.
Yes - though you can remove the words "seem to" from the sentence. I've proven it over hundreds of rounds (my previous test of just under 200 and others totaling hundreds over multiple tests)I've gone back and forth on this a few times, and for me, batches of rounds where I lube the inside of the necks before seating bullets always seem to come out better.
I'm not going to spend the rest of my days driving back to the forth to the range trying "half lubed vs half no-lube" over and over, because I've gone back and forth on it and already tried that enough times to be fairly positive I already know which is better.
Besides, the lubed rounds are never worse, and the juice is worth the squeeze since it only costs a few minutes.
IME, I've seen it turn an AVG SD of ~7-9 into ~4-6, and a ~4-6 AVG SD into ~1.5-4 which, considering all the other way more annoying reloading PITA BS we have to do to load rounds, is worth a few extra minutes to me.
I bet you're a boner killer at the Saturday night after-partiesJust me or does that seem like a wildly inefficient use of lube?
Edit: autocorrect
I think guys that wet tumble (like me) see more positive results with neck lube than guy that dry tumble.
Would you elaborate on this assertion? Thank you. Pretty much interested about the use of ‘unnecessarily’ adverb here.To be fair - lube may be more beneficial after you unnecessarily heat treat your necks with an annealer.
Only if the person doing the anneal is simply inept.See my previous chronos - that is from 8x fired lapua never annealed. Unless you’re shooting out 2-3 barrels per year or shooting comp elr you’re far more likely to introduce problems trying to anneal than fix any.
99%. . . depending on what one is capable of and trying to achieve.It’s unnecessary for 99% of people on here and the amp annealer is the only one capable of any consistently positive benefit. I’d recommend reviewing their book on annealing made perfect if you have questions about that statement.
What it does do best is extend the life of the brass.Bottom line. Annealing doesn’t help shoot better groups - contrary to what you read on here everyday by people acting like it’s required.
it's the only one emploring science to restructure the brass grains. You have no idea what you're doing with salt or a torch with respect to this - so yes, I firmly believe it is the only annealer with the potential to consistently provide benefit.Only if the person doing the anneal is simply inept.
99%. . . depending on what one is capable of and trying to achieve.
While the AMP annealer is indeed the machine that produces the most consistent annealing (at least, none better to my knowledge), saying it's the only one capable of producing consistent positive benefit is like saying a car taking you on a trip at x mph gets you to your destination more consistently than going x +/- 1 mph. There's a lot of variables in-between.
What it does do best is extend the life of the brass.
For many people, it does help shoot better groups. But that's simply not an absolute, as various things are at play. For many, it does help produce more consistent put together cartridges, which doesn't necessarily mean they'll see more consistent shooting results.
It all depends.![]()
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Question...Is lubing only for prolonging the case (neck) life?.Just wondering if this is really required when seating the bullet. I am asking because without lubing I am already getting between 5-10 SD and I doubt I can get better by lubing the necks. Is lubing only for prolonging the case (neck) life?
Asking as one who struggles to get 10-shot, single-digit SDs (but doesn’t anneal every firing), what do you feel is the reason for your low numbers despite skipping many of the steps that the majority here believe to be necessary? I could definitely use the help.it's the only one emploring science to restructure the brass grains. You have no idea what you're doing with salt or a torch with respect to this - so yes, I firmly believe it is the only annealer with the potential to consistently provide benefit.
Idiots with torches can ABSOLUTELY do more damage than good thinking they need to be annealing.
"What it does do best is extend the life of the brass." this is factual. thinking it causes better groups is not.
Asking as one who struggles to get 10-shot, single-digit SDs (but doesn’t anneal every firing), what do you feel is the reason for your low numbers despite skipping many of the steps that the majority here believe to be necessary? I could definitely use the help.
Annealing is simply the product of temperature over time. Control temperature and time and control your process. Material manufacturing plants employ all varieties of annealing processes depending on size and scale of production, and it all works, scientifically. In fact, the brass you shoot is only flame annealed before you get it.it's the only one emploring science to restructure the brass grains. You have no idea what you're doing with salt or a torch with respect to this - so yes, I firmly believe it is the only annealer with the potential to consistently provide benefit.
Idiots with torches can ABSOLUTELY do more damage than good thinking they need to be annealing.
"What it does do best is extend the life of the brass." this is factual. thinking it causes better groups is not.
this guy tumbles twice, and deprimes and sizes in separate steps, but says I use 35 steps to single digit SD ammo over 100+ shots. LOL!!Components and routine. I reload the same exact way every single time start to finish and use the best most consistent components I can. Quality reloading gear, and components are essential.
I exclusively shoot:
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - lapua or adg
Powder - h4350 or h1000
Primer - fed 215m
Reloading process:
Deprime
Dry tumble with corn
Full size die - (whidden or sac) (alpha munitions sizing lube)
Trim (giraud - seriously buy this if you are doing any other trimming)
Dry tumble again
Prime - (primal rights or a frankford hand)
Powder - (autotrickler or cm lite)
Seat bullet - (whidden or sac in press)
Having a clean organized workspace is also up there on my list and a lot seem to overlook. (I shot single digit long before I had a 419 press or an autotrickler - those are in no way required to shoot single digit)
View attachment 8466392
this guy tumbles twice, and deprimes and sizes in separate steps, but says I use 35 steps to single digit SD ammo over 100+ shots. LOL!!
Then you know it's 3 minutes of actual 'work'. try running clean brass through your fl sometimes, you'll be shocked at how much better your die looks and how smooth it can run through. ill teach you a thing or two, don't worry boyI’m familiar. I dry tumble. Once, to get the lube off.
Clearly you’re the one needing a lesson in both science and efficiency.
yes. I mandrel new brass. I also have used mandrels - I don't write things off I don't test.That a mandrel die?
View attachment 8466423
I agree. . . quality components as well as quality reloading gear is a huge factor in getting low SD's into single digits.Components and routine. I reload the same exact way every single time start to finish and use the best most consistent components I can. Quality reloading gear, and components are essential.
I exclusively shoot:
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - lapua or adg
Powder - h4350 or h1000
Primer - fed 215m
Reloading process:
Deprime
Dry tumble with corn
Full size die - (whidden or sac) (alpha munitions sizing lube)
Trim (giraud)
Dry tumble again
Prime - (primal rights or a frankford hand)
Powder - (autotrickler or cm lite)
Seat bullet - (whidden or sac in press)
Having a clean organized workspace is also up there on my list and a lot seem to overlook.
View attachment 8466392
I appreciate the detailed response! My process is not really much different than yours...Components and routine. I reload the same exact way every single time start to finish and use the best most consistent components I can. Quality reloading gear, and components are essential.
I exclusively shoot:
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - lapua or adg
Powder - h4350 or h1000
Primer - fed 215m
Reloading process:
Deprime
Dry tumble with corn
Full size die - (whidden or sac) (alpha munitions sizing lube)
Trim (giraud - seriously buy this if you are doing any other trimming)
Dry tumble again
Prime - (primal rights or a frankford hand)
Powder - (autotrickler or cm lite)
Seat bullet - (whidden or sac in press)
Having a clean organized workspace is also up there on my list and a lot seem to overlook. (I shot single digit long before I had a 419 press or an autotrickler - those are in no way required to shoot single digit)
I'd deprime before your tumble - 419 makes a nice deprimer. This will really clean up those flash holes and I would stop putting a drill near my brass - im not aware of one person even in benchrest doing any flash hole work on lapua or alpha brass anymore. flash hole work used to be a big thing, but today, lapua is so good you just can't be getting any benefit from it (which means it can only hurt)I appreciate the detailed response! My process is not really much different than yours...
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - Lapua
Powder - Retumbo (300NM, 338NM, 300PRC), which is a sister to your powder choices
Primer - Fed 215M
Process:
-Dry tumble, corncob, not deprimed
-F/L size - bump shoulders 1-2 thou, Redding bushing die (Area 419 M-series for 300PRC) and mandrel combination to give .002 interference fit. All done on Zero press, using Imperial die wax on case, and dry graphite or dry moly lube for necks.
-Wipe lube off with alcohol/rag
-Clean flash holes with correct size drill bit (just hand-held and stuck through to make sure no obstructions)
-I've tried cleaning vs. not cleaning primer pockets and seen no difference.
-I don't trim every firing, but I do sort cases into lots separated by .002 length divisions (i.e no two cases fired in the same string will have more than 0.001 difference in case length).
-Light chamfer/deburr (a more complete one is done on new or trimmed brass, so this is just a light touch-up)
-Lightly brush necks (by hand, no drills)
-Dry-lube necks (I've tried with and without, saw slightly lower ES/SD with, but certainly not a game changer).
-Charge cases to within 0.02gr on A&D FX120i scale (hand throwing/trickling for now, have the new IP system on order)
-Seat bullets to specified depth using Forster Ultra micrometer seating dies
Yesterday, I ran 13 rounds of 338NM.
After first five rounds, ES 9.8, SD 3.8 - Okaaaay...looking good...
After next five (10 total), ES 34, SD 8.9 - Eh, I could live with it but don't want to...
After final three (13 total) ES 41, SD 10.1 - And heeere we go again - crap.
Very frustrating!
When you measure CBTO's after seating, what kind of variance do you get?I appreciate the detailed response! My process is not really much different than yours...
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - Lapua
Powder - Retumbo (300NM, 338NM, 300PRC), which is a sister to your powder choices
Primer - Fed 215M
Process:
-Dry tumble, corncob, not deprimed
-F/L size - bump shoulders 1-2 thou, Redding bushing die (Area 419 M-series for 300PRC) and mandrel combination to give .002 interference fit. All done on Zero press, using Imperial die wax on case, and dry graphite or dry moly lube for necks.
-Wipe lube off with alcohol/rag
-Clean flash holes with correct size drill bit (just hand-held and stuck through to make sure no obstructions)
-I've tried cleaning vs. not cleaning primer pockets and seen no difference.
-I don't trim every firing, but I do sort cases into lots separated by .002 length divisions (i.e no two cases fired in the same string will have more than 0.001 difference in case length).
-Light chamfer/deburr (a more complete one is done on new or trimmed brass, so this is just a light touch-up)
-Lightly brush necks (by hand, no drills)
-Dry-lube necks (I've tried with and without, saw slightly lower ES/SD with, but certainly not a game changer).
-Charge cases to within 0.02gr on A&D FX120i scale (hand throwing/trickling for now, have the new IP system on order)
-Seat bullets to specified depth using Forster Ultra micrometer seating dies
Yesterday, I ran 13 rounds of 338NM.
After first five rounds, ES 9.8, SD 3.8 - Okaaaay...looking good...
After next five (10 total), ES 34, SD 8.9 - Eh, I could live with it but don't want to...
After final three (13 total) ES 41, SD 10.1 - And heeere we go again - crap.
Very frustrating!
I've found the hybrid to be super tolerant to varaince in CBTO so long as it is between that 20-40 thousandths (some report it shoots well out to 60). I rarely even consider throat erosion with them becasue of this.When you measure CBTO's after seating, what kind of variance do you get?
Yes, I also find Berger Hybrids to have very low variance in their BTO's. But my interest in his CBTO's has nothing to do with jump to the lands. It's the variance involving seating depth as well as blowby.I've found the hybrid to be super tolerant to varaince in CBTO so long as it is between that 20-40 thousandths (some report it shoots well out to 60). I rarely even consider throat erosion with them becasue of this.
EDIT: When I refer to lubing necks, it's the inside of the neck for seating purposes.
I've done some fairly extensive testing on this. I compared neck lube (neolube) vs. no neck lube in my 300 PRC over nearly 100 rounds for each modality.
With neck lube, I got, and still get, low 6s for SDs over large sample sizes. Without neck lube, SDs were in the 8.x range. Again, this is over close to 200 rounds of total testing. I also saw a noticeably larger group size for non-lubed necks (all shots at 500 yards), but I can't definitively attribute this to the fact that I wasn't using neck lube on those bullets due to the fact that using neck lube changes the pressure profile. I can't say for sure that I couldn't have tuned the non-lubed rounds to get better groups.
For reference, here is a plot on my amp press showing seating forces of the two. Guess which color is the "no lube" group.View attachment 8462035
I have also done extensive testing on seating force consistency and the correlation to muzzle velocity SDs.
I'm not using a drill, or doing any actual flash hole "work". I'm simply pushing a #47 (or whatever size it is, can't remember for sure) bit through the hole by hand, don't even twist it, and make sure it passes through in case there were any trash or residue obstructing or narrowing the passage.I'd deprime before your tumble - 419 makes a nice deprimer. This will really clean up those flash holes and I would stop putting a drill near my brass - im not aware of one person even in benchrest doing any flash hole work on lapua or alpha brass anymore. flash hole work used to be a big thing, but today, lapua is so good you just can't be getting any benefit from it (which means it can only hurt)
A consistent trim/ chamfer/ debur is critical to smooth seating and consistent "grab" on the bullet. The giraud is my number #1 must-have expensive tool (long before the fx or nice press) the henderson is also nice and probably equally as good based on reviews but this is a CRITICAL step and you can cut out the sorting.
I also really like cleaning between fl and powder becasue it eliminates any possibility of powder clumping from the lube. ( I also use drop tubes when pouring powder)
Are you at 20-60 thou jump on the hybrid?
Really very little - 0.002 max, but most are within 0.001. The Zero press and Ultra seating dies are pretty consistent.When you measure CBTO's after seating, what kind of variance do you get?
I'm not using a drill, or doing any actual flash hole "work". I'm simply pushing a #47 (or whatever size it is, can't remember for sure) bit through the hole by hand, don't even twist it, and make sure it passes through in case there were any trash or residue obstructing or narrowing the passage.
I have a Giraud trimmer, but haven't put it into service yet. Prior trimming has all been done by hand on a LE Wilson. Are you trimming every firing, and back to what length in relation to your Min/Max length?
I haven't cleaned after sizing because I don't use wet lube in the neck, so no concern for powder clumping. Also tumbling again guarantees another pass to clean media out of flash holes, so I've avoided it.
Current jump on the 230 hybrid in the 300PRC is .015. I started with .015, went to .030 and saw groups open up, so I didn't go to .045 or .060.
Thanks for taking the time to get share your thoughts! I appreciate the help.
Anyone else with some ideas feel free to jump in.
Hmmm??? That's pretty good and right close to what I typically get (+/- .0005). You're reloading process looks pretty good to me, though I approach some things differently (to include annealingReally very little - 0.002 max, but most are within 0.001. The Zero press and Ultra seating dies are pretty consistent.
Thanks for the extra help. I admit, primers are seated by feel using the RCBS automatic bench priming tool, so maybe I need some schooling on that. I stop when I feel them bottom out, and don't crush, then run a finger over to make sure it's just below flush with the case head.Hmmm??? That's pretty good and right close to what I typically get (+/- .0005). You're reloading process looks pretty good to me, though I approach some things differently (to include annealing).
I really don't think your SD's and ES's are really not bad for that cartridge (338NM). And it's some of the little things that can make a difference, but you may not be far from the floor where getting an additional 2 points less might be a little tough. There's just a couple of things that I'd look close at to get some improvement:
1. Getting better ignition can be important and something worth looking close at and experimenting with. First, making sure primers are seated to a consistent seating depth (hopefully, you're not relying on feel for that). You may need to try a different magnum primer than the Fed 215M's for that powder and load???
2. If you haven't tried a different powder, you might want to try things like H-1000, H-4831sc, IMR 7828, RL-26, RL-23, MagPro or some of the Vihtavuori powders (N-560, N-565, N-165) . . . .just to name some???
BTW: how many times as that Lapua brass been fired? And what chrono are you using?
Deal. Can't hurt, for sure.I giraud every single time. Start utilizing that in your routine immediately. It can do nothing it help.
Thanks for the extra help. I admit, primers are seated by feel using the RCBS automatic bench priming tool, so maybe I need some schooling on that. I stop when I feel them bottom out, and don't crush, then run a finger over to make sure it's just below flush with the case head.
I initially was using Winchester WLRM in the 338 years ago, but got better results when I switched to the 215M. I haven't tried others.
I'm heavily invested in Retumbo, but you may be right. I sure hope you aren't !
The batch of 300PRC brass (200 pcs) is currently finishing up their second firing, about to process for their third. I recently got an AMP and intended to only anneal after every third firing. Are you a proponent of annealing every firing?
The batch of 338NM brass (250 pcs) is currently finishing up their third firing, and I mis-spoke. It is Norma brass. I have some new Lapua brass for it on hand, but forgot I was still using the Norma right now (Lapua wasn't available in 338NM when I acquired the Norma brass, but is now). I have nothing but Lapua brass for all my other cartridges (338LM, 300NM, and 300PRC), so I somehow forgot that I haven't actually put the 338NM Lapua brass into service yet since Lapua is all I normally use on everything.
Garmin chrono ever since they first came out, Labradar for 6 or 7 years before that, MS3 for 1 year before that, and a couple different optical chronos (ugh) going back to the dark ages when that's all there was. God Bless you, Garmin...
Ok, two more questions, if i may:Retumbo is a fine powder.
I have never seated primers by feel and don’t like that idea. Id rather have the primer short in the cup and extremely consistent than believe I can gauge depth/ crush by feel.
The 215m is the king of magnum ignition. I’ve never needed to use anything else in the 8-10 loads I’ve worked up.
1. the back of your micrometer has a plunger style measurment piece you can use to measure the cup in your brass. shoot me a pm if you have questions about that. Then I measure the primer. (taking an avg of 5-8 pieces of both). I then use those measurements to set a flush seating or 1 thou crush based on the number.Ok, two more questions, if i may:
1) How are you controlling/setting primer seating depth and how do you decide on a specific depth?
2) Since you trim every firing, what length do you choose (assuming most cartridges have a 0.010-ish difference between Min/Max, are you near Min, or Max, or in the middle?
Thanks again to everyone, and also to @adaptive as I've sort of hijacked your thread, but since the general idea behind it was lowering SD, I hope you don't mind.
Show me a micrometer with a, “plunger style measuring piece” for measuring depth.1. the back of your micrometer has a plunger style measurment piece you can use to measure the cup in your brass. shoot me a pm if you have questions about that. Then I measure the primer. (taking an avg of 5-8 pieces of both). I then use those measurements to set a flush seating or 1 thou crush based on the number.
My lapua brass is .1290 cup and my primer is exaclty .1290 and I seat to 1 thou under the rim of brass.
acurracy one makes a badass measurement tool for this (although I just use my micrometer) (https://bullettipping.com/products/precision-primer-gauge/)
2. I mesaure 10 cases and trim to the shortest, pending no crazy outlier. (I set my trim length on first firing and never move it)
Show me a micrometer with a, “plunger style measuring piece” for measuring depth.
That’s digital a caliper.Lol! Helping you make yourself look stupid is quickly becoming my favorite part of the week
View attachment 8467473
That’s a depth micrometer, it doesn’t “use the back”, and that anvil isn’t fitting inside a primer pocket, also, he already outed himself as not having a clue what he’s talking about. Nice try at white knighting for him though. Your type needs to stick together out there.
That’s digital a caliper.
This is a digital micrometer.
View attachment 8467535
Please, in your infinite wisdom, point out the depth gauge.
Your bravado is amusing.
False. Everyone knows that as a caliper, but please, keep going. This is great.The common man knows them as micrometers. You in fact knew exactly what I was talking about and so will the guy just asking for some help.
Have you ever seen one in person ? They make them plenty small enough for primer pocket work .That’s a depth micrometer, it doesn’t “use the back”, and that anvil isn’t fitting inside a primer pocket, also, he already outed himself as not having a clue what he’s talking about. Nice try at white knighting for him though. Your type needs to stick together out there.
I have many. I have one that has a pointed anvil that would be perfect for this application. The one you posted will not work. The one your buddy posted isn’t even a micrometer.Have you ever seen one in person ? They make them plenty small enough for primer pocket work .
I measure primer pocket depths for every new lot or brand of brass I get. I also measure the height of the primers for each sleeve. When I know these numbers, I can know just how deep I'm seating my primers. . . .especially when my primer pockets are uniform. For fast and accurate measurements of primer pockets and primer seating, I use the Accuracy One Precision Primer Gauge.Ok, two more questions, if i may:
1) How are you controlling/setting primer seating depth and how do you decide on a specific depth?
Yes I 3-way trim after every firing and like to keep the length in the middle between the Min/Max. When I'm loading long, I'll trim close to the max (like maybe within .002) to get as much bearing surface in contact with the neck's surface as possible. If you're trimming after every firing and keeping the carbon ring under control, it doesn't hurt to be lose to the max.2) Since you trim every firing, what length do you choose (assuming most cartridges have a 0.010-ish difference between Min/Max, are you near Min, or Max, or in the middle?
Thanks again to everyone, and also to @adaptive as I've sort of hijacked your thread, but since the general idea behind it was lowering SD, I hope you don't mind.
I know it won't work...it is a colored illustration for reference only . Not for sale .I have many. I have one that has a pointed anvil that would be perfect for this application. The one you posted will not work. The one your buddy posted isn’t even a micrometer.