Is lubing the neck really required?
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My reloaded ammo is already in the 4-8SD range (20 shot population) and that is already plenty for my PRS ambitions, however I am trying to push it down a little more, being a little bit concerned with the reddish oxide the Amp annealing leaves inside of the neck ( more present if you anneal after dry tumbling than before )
This thread as well as others I came across here was really helpful in figuring out how to put together something new to try.
First, annealing before cleaning, and cleaning after sizing.
Second, lube the inside of the neck with a mop and some imperial grease like Orkan is doing on YT, before sizing
Third, lube the inside of the neck a-la @CK1.0 before seating
One variation would be to use Lanolin & IPA before sizing, I don’t think it would be substantial.
I’ll see what happens. All in all no drama in terms of workload increase anyway.
Thank you all, the bitching was fun too.
This thread as well as others I came across here was really helpful in figuring out how to put together something new to try.
First, annealing before cleaning, and cleaning after sizing.
Second, lube the inside of the neck with a mop and some imperial grease like Orkan is doing on YT, before sizing
Third, lube the inside of the neck a-la @CK1.0 before seating
One variation would be to use Lanolin & IPA before sizing, I don’t think it would be substantial.
I’ll see what happens. All in all no drama in terms of workload increase anyway.
Thank you all, the bitching was fun too.
IMHO playing around with the order of one's process is a huge part of this, a lot of times we don't need to buy any new shit, many times it's better to just experiment with what we already have and how we're doing things.
I don't do half the shit I used to when I started reloading for precision, and yet I probably do more than a few things in a way I would have told you was too far out and/or possibly BS only a few years ago lol.
FWIW, unless my brass is extra dirty/crusty from a muddy match or something, every firing my fired brass goes straight to the AMP without any other cleaning, then (once cool) into a 1-gallon sized zip lock bag where I spray 5-6 squirts of lanolin/IPA mix in there with it and work the cases around for ~1 minute or so and then open the bag and give it a few minutes for most of the alcohol to flash off. Then, in one step on the press, I FL size and decap (just knock out the primer, no expander ball or anything like that). Then all the sized cases go into the dry tumbler (which sort of cleans as it gets all the lube off), etc.
I used to wet tumble until my brass looked brand new and I'd slap myself for that now lol.
Yes - though you can remove the words "seem to" from the sentence. I've proven it over hundreds of rounds (my previous test of just under 200 and others totaling hundreds over multiple tests)
That's what obsessive people like me are for
Exactly. In the video I posted, I did 10 rounds in like 40 seconds.
I got very similar improvements. I've measured 8.x to 6.x on extensive testing on my 300 PRC, and 7.x to ~4.5 over less testing on my 6 BRA. I haven't measured it on any other caliber. EDIT: Yet
I think guys that wet tumble (like me) see more positive results with neck lube than guy that dry tumble.
I could buy that. I switched from wet to dry a while ago and won’t look back. It’s far easier to use dry and makes brass way cleaner
Would you elaborate on this assertion? Thank you. Pretty much interested about the use of ‘unnecessarily’ adverb here.
See my previous chronos - that is from 8x fired lapua never annealed. Unless you’re shooting out 2-3 barrels per year or shooting comp elr you’re far more likely to introduce problems trying to anneal than fix any.
It’s unnecessary for 99% of people on here and the amp annealer is the only one capable of any consistently positive benefit. I’d recommend reviewing their book on annealing made perfect if you have questions about that statement.
Bottom line. Annealing doesn’t help shoot better groups - contrary to what you read on here everyday by people acting like it’s required.
It’s unnecessary for 99% of people on here and the amp annealer is the only one capable of any consistently positive benefit. I’d recommend reviewing their book on annealing made perfect if you have questions about that statement.
Bottom line. Annealing doesn’t help shoot better groups - contrary to what you read on here everyday by people acting like it’s required.
Attachments
Only if the person doing the anneal is simply inept.
99%. . . depending on what one is capable of and trying to achieve.
While the AMP annealer is indeed the machine that produces the most consistent annealing (at least, none better to my knowledge), saying it's the only one capable of producing consistent positive benefit is like saying a car taking you on a trip at x mph gets you to your destination more consistently than going x +/- 1 mph. There's a lot of variables in-between.
What it does do best is extend the life of the brass.
For many people, it does help shoot better groups. But that's simply not an absolute, as various things are at play. For many, it does help produce more consistent put together cartridges, which doesn't necessarily mean they'll see more consistent shooting results.
It all depends.
it's the only one emploring science to restructure the brass grains. You have no idea what you're doing with salt or a torch with respect to this - so yes, I firmly believe it is the only annealer with the potential to consistently provide benefit.Only if the person doing the anneal is simply inept.
99%. . . depending on what one is capable of and trying to achieve.
While the AMP annealer is indeed the machine that produces the most consistent annealing (at least, none better to my knowledge), saying it's the only one capable of producing consistent positive benefit is like saying a car taking you on a trip at x mph gets you to your destination more consistently than going x +/- 1 mph. There's a lot of variables in-between.
What it does do best is extend the life of the brass.
For many people, it does help shoot better groups. But that's simply not an absolute, as various things are at play. For many, it does help produce more consistent put together cartridges, which doesn't necessarily mean they'll see more consistent shooting results.
It all depends.
Idiots with torches can ABSOLUTELY do more damage than good thinking they need to be annealing.
"What it does do best is extend the life of the brass." this is factual. thinking it causes better groups is not.
Asking as one who struggles to get 10-shot, single-digit SDs (but doesn’t anneal every firing), what do you feel is the reason for your low numbers despite skipping many of the steps that the majority here believe to be necessary? I could definitely use the help.
Components and routine. I reload the same exact way every single time start to finish and use the best most consistent components I can. Quality reloading gear, and components are essential.
I exclusively shoot:
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - lapua or adg
Powder - h4350 or h1000
Primer - fed 215m
Reloading process:
Deprime
Dry tumble with corn
Full size die - (whidden or sac) (alpha munitions sizing lube)
Trim (giraud - seriously buy this if you are doing any other trimming)
Dry tumble again
Prime - (primal rights or a frankford hand)
Powder - (autotrickler or cm lite)
Seat bullet - (whidden or sac in press)
Having a clean organized workspace is also up there on my list and a lot seem to overlook. (I shot single digit long before I had a 419 press or an autotrickler - those are in no way required to shoot single digit)
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Annealing is simply the product of temperature over time. Control temperature and time and control your process. Material manufacturing plants employ all varieties of annealing processes depending on size and scale of production, and it all works, scientifically. In fact, the brass you shoot is only flame annealed before you get it.
this guy tumbles twice, and deprimes and sizes in separate steps, but says I use 35 steps to single digit SD ammo over 100+ shots. LOL!!
Maybe you’re not familiar with dry tumbling but you throw it in walk away and then spend 3 minutes picking it out after.
You can pm me if you still want that lesson in ballistics, and I guess also in how time works?
For those with any brain cells I dry tumble twice because it keeps my fl die much cleaner. I find that extra few minutes to run clean brass through my die to be beneficial to long-term accuracy since the die doesn’t need to come apart as often for cleaning. I also wash after the trim and fl to remove any wax and shavings.
I’m familiar. I dry tumble. Once, to get the lube off.
Clearly you’re the one needing a lesson in both science and efficiency.
Clearly you’re the one needing a lesson in both science and efficiency.
Then you know it's 3 minutes of actual 'work'. try running clean brass through your fl sometimes, you'll be shocked at how much better your die looks and how smooth it can run through. ill teach you a thing or two, don't worry boy
yes. I mandrel new brass. I also have used mandrels - I don't write things off I don't test.
but it's COMPLETELY unnecessary for normal reloading and not part of my routine.
The only thing you could possibly teach me is what not to do, and I don’t have to contact you privately to learn that, creeper.
I agree. . . quality components as well as quality reloading gear is a huge factor in getting low SD's into single digits.
When I started precision reloading, I wasn't sure I could get my velocity's SD's consistently into the single digits for my .308. It seemed like this particular cartridge was difficult to do so from all that I was reading. I set a goal just wanting to get consistent single digits. Needless to say, I tried all kinds of things. The most substantial improvement to that goal was going to a really good scale like the one in your picture (FX-120i). It made a huge jump in my results measuring my powder to a single grain. This powder consistency also proved to help factory ammo where I redistributed powder in half a box of Federal Premium 175 SMK's and seated them to a consistent seating depth. Other things that helped a lot were quality brass (Lapua, Peterson and now some Alpha) and quality bullets (usually Sierra's for .308 and Berger and some Sierra's for 6.5 PRC). Consistent ignition helps some too (like with consistent primer seating). . .every little bit helps.
My reloading process:
Deprime
Clean Primer Pocket (pocket uniformer)
Anneal (flame anneal with Annealeez)
Clean necks with Steel Wool
FL size (Imperial sizing wax),no expander ball. . . or Neck Size
Dry Tumble in rice
Expand Neck (when FL sizing, which is most of the time)
Trim (Giraud)
Prime Cases (Lee ACP priming tool)
Powder charge cases (on FX-120i and hand trickle)
Seat Bullets (Wilson seater w/Micrometer, Harrells arbor press, no lube added)
The kind of results I get:
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I appreciate the detailed response! My process is not really much different than yours...
Bullets - Berger hybrid
Brass - Lapua
Powder - Retumbo (300NM, 338NM, 300PRC), which is a sister to your powder choices
Primer - Fed 215M
Process:
-Dry tumble, corncob, not deprimed
-F/L size - bump shoulders 1-2 thou, Redding bushing die (Area 419 M-series for 300PRC) and mandrel combination to give .002 interference fit. All done on Zero press, using Imperial die wax on case, and dry graphite or dry moly lube for necks.
-Wipe lube off with alcohol/rag
-Clean flash holes with correct size drill bit (just hand-held and stuck through to make sure no obstructions)
-I've tried cleaning vs. not cleaning primer pockets and seen no difference.
-I don't trim every firing, but I do sort cases into lots separated by .002 length divisions (i.e no two cases fired in the same string will have more than 0.001 difference in case length).
-Light chamfer/deburr (a more complete one is done on new or trimmed brass, so this is just a light touch-up)
-Lightly brush necks (by hand, no drills)
-Dry-lube necks (I've tried with and without, saw slightly lower ES/SD with, but certainly not a game changer).
-Charge cases to within 0.02gr on A&D FX120i scale (hand throwing/trickling for now, have the new IP system on order)
-Seat bullets to specified depth using Forster Ultra micrometer seating dies
Yesterday, I ran 13 rounds of 338NM.
After first five rounds, ES 9.8, SD 3.8 - Okaaaay...looking good...
After next five (10 total), ES 34, SD 8.9 - Eh, I could live with it but don't want to...
After final three (13 total) ES 41, SD 10.1 - And heeere we go again - crap.
Very frustrating!
I'd deprime before your tumble - 419 makes a nice deprimer. This will really clean up those flash holes and I would stop putting a drill near my brass - im not aware of one person even in benchrest doing any flash hole work on lapua or alpha brass anymore. flash hole work used to be a big thing, but today, lapua is so good you just can't be getting any benefit from it (which means it can only hurt)
A consistent trim/ chamfer/ debur is critical to smooth seating and consistent "grab" on the bullet. The giraud is my number #1 must-have expensive tool (long before the fx or nice press) the henderson is also nice and probably equally as good based on reviews but this is a CRITICAL step and you can cut out the sorting.
I also really like cleaning between fl and powder becasue it eliminates any possibility of powder clumping from the lube. ( I also use drop tubes when pouring powder)
Are you at 20-60 thou jump on the hybrid?
I've found the hybrid to be super tolerant to varaince in CBTO so long as it is between that 20-40 thousandths (some report it shoots well out to 60). I rarely even consider throat erosion with them becasue of this.
Yes, I also find Berger Hybrids to have very low variance in their BTO's. But my interest in his CBTO's has nothing to do with jump to the lands. It's the variance involving seating depth as well as blowby.
I never strongly considered lubing necks in the past, but your experimentation and results you have posted here and in the past has changed that.
I'm certainly intrigued. My SD's are great on my 6BRA, but my 6.5 Creedmoor and .300NM could be improved, they are both around 6-8 for SD.
I'm not using a drill, or doing any actual flash hole "work". I'm simply pushing a #47 (or whatever size it is, can't remember for sure) bit through the hole by hand, don't even twist it, and make sure it passes through in case there were any trash or residue obstructing or narrowing the passage.
I have a Giraud trimmer, but haven't put it into service yet. Prior trimming has all been done by hand on a LE Wilson. Are you trimming every firing, and back to what length in relation to your Min/Max length?
I haven't cleaned after sizing because I don't use wet lube in the neck, so no concern for powder clumping. Also tumbling again guarantees another pass to clean media out of flash holes, so I've avoided it.
Current jump on the 230 hybrid in the 300PRC is .015. I started with .015, went to .030 and saw groups open up, so I didn't go to .045 or .060.
Thanks for taking the time to get share your thoughts! I appreciate the help.
Anyone else with some ideas feel free to jump in.
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Really very little - 0.002 max, but most are within 0.001. The Zero press and Ultra seating dies are pretty consistent.
I giraud every single time. Start utilizing that in your routine immediately. It can do nothing it help.
Hmmm??? That's pretty good and right close to what I typically get (+/- .0005). You're reloading process looks pretty good to me, though I approach some things differently (to include annealing
).I really don't think your SD's and ES's are really that bad for that cartridge (338NM). And it's some of the little things that can make a difference, but you may not be far from the floor where getting an additional 2 points less might be a little tough. There's just a couple of things that I'd look close at to get some improvement:
1. Getting better ignition can be important and something worth looking close at and experimenting with. First, making sure primers are seated to a consistent seating depth (hopefully, you're not relying on feel for that). You may need to try a different magnum primer than the Fed 215M's for that powder and load???
2. If you haven't tried a different powder, you might want to try things like H-1000, H-4831sc, IMR 7828, RL-26, RL-23, MagPro or some of the Vihtavuori powders (N-560, N-565, N-165) . . . .just to name some???
BTW: how many times as that Lapua brass been fired? And what chrono are you using?
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Thanks for the extra help. I admit, primers are seated by feel using the RCBS automatic bench priming tool, so maybe I need some schooling on that. I stop when I feel them bottom out, and don't crush, then run a finger over to make sure it's just below flush with the case head.Hmmm??? That's pretty good and right close to what I typically get (+/- .0005). You're reloading process looks pretty good to me, though I approach some things differently (to include annealing
I really don't think your SD's and ES's are really not bad for that cartridge (338NM). And it's some of the little things that can make a difference, but you may not be far from the floor where getting an additional 2 points less might be a little tough. There's just a couple of things that I'd look close at to get some improvement:
1. Getting better ignition can be important and something worth looking close at and experimenting with. First, making sure primers are seated to a consistent seating depth (hopefully, you're not relying on feel for that). You may need to try a different magnum primer than the Fed 215M's for that powder and load???
2. If you haven't tried a different powder, you might want to try things like H-1000, H-4831sc, IMR 7828, RL-26, RL-23, MagPro or some of the Vihtavuori powders (N-560, N-565, N-165) . . . .just to name some???
BTW: how many times as that Lapua brass been fired? And what chrono are you using?
I initially was using Winchester WLRM in the 338 years ago, but got better results when I switched to the 215M. I haven't tried others.
I'm heavily invested in Retumbo, but you may be right. I sure hope you aren't !
The batch of 300PRC brass (200 pcs) is currently finishing up their second firing, about to process for their third. I recently got an AMP and intended to only anneal after every third firing. Are you a proponent of annealing every firing?
The batch of 338NM brass (250 pcs) is currently finishing up their third firing, and I mis-spoke. It is Norma brass. I have some new Lapua brass for it on hand, but forgot I was still using the Norma right now (Lapua wasn't available in 338NM when I acquired the Norma brass, but is now). I have nothing but Lapua brass for all my other cartridges (338LM, 300NM, and 300PRC), so I somehow forgot that I haven't actually put the 338NM Lapua brass into service yet since Lapua is all I normally use on everything.
Garmin chrono ever since they first came out, Labradar for 6 or 7 years before that, MS3 for 1 year before that, and a couple different optical chronos (ugh) going back to the dark ages when that's all there was. God Bless you, Garmin...
Thanks for the extra help. I admit, primers are seated by feel using the RCBS automatic bench priming tool, so maybe I need some schooling on that. I stop when I feel them bottom out, and don't crush, then run a finger over to make sure it's just below flush with the case head.
I initially was using Winchester WLRM in the 338 years ago, but got better results when I switched to the 215M. I haven't tried others.
I'm heavily invested in Retumbo, but you may be right. I sure hope you aren't !
The batch of 300PRC brass (200 pcs) is currently finishing up their second firing, about to process for their third. I recently got an AMP and intended to only anneal after every third firing. Are you a proponent of annealing every firing?
The batch of 338NM brass (250 pcs) is currently finishing up their third firing, and I mis-spoke. It is Norma brass. I have some new Lapua brass for it on hand, but forgot I was still using the Norma right now (Lapua wasn't available in 338NM when I acquired the Norma brass, but is now). I have nothing but Lapua brass for all my other cartridges (338LM, 300NM, and 300PRC), so I somehow forgot that I haven't actually put the 338NM Lapua brass into service yet since Lapua is all I normally use on everything.
Garmin chrono ever since they first came out, Labradar for 6 or 7 years before that, MS3 for 1 year before that, and a couple different optical chronos (ugh) going back to the dark ages when that's all there was. God Bless you, Garmin...
Retumbo is a fine powder.
I have never seated primers by feel and don’t like that idea. Id rather have the primer short in the cup and extremely consistent than believe I can gauge depth/ crush by feel.
The 215m is the king of magnum ignition. I’ve never needed to use anything else in the 8-10 loads I’ve worked up.
Ok, two more questions, if i may:
1) How are you controlling/setting primer seating depth and how do you decide on a specific depth?
2) Since you trim every firing, what length do you choose (assuming most cartridges have a 0.010-ish difference between Min/Max, are you near Min, or Max, or in the middle?
Thanks again to everyone, and also to @adaptive as I've sort of hijacked your thread, but since the general idea behind it was lowering SD, I hope you don't mind.
1. the back of your micrometer has a plunger style measurment piece you can use to measure the cup in your brass. shoot me a pm if you have questions about that. Then I measure the primer. (taking an avg of 5-8 pieces of both). I then use those measurements to set a flush seating or 1 thou crush based on the number.
My lapua brass is .1290 cup and my primer is exaclty .1290 and I seat to 1 thou under the rim of brass.
acurracy one makes a badass measurement tool for this (although I just use my micrometer) (https://bullettipping.com/products/precision-primer-gauge/)
2. I mesaure 10 cases and trim to the shortest, pending no crazy outlier. (I set my trim length on first firing and never move it)
Show me a micrometer with a, “plunger style measuring piece” for measuring depth.
Lol! Helping you make yourself look stupid is quickly becoming my favorite part of the week
That’s digital a caliper.
This is a digital micrometer.
Please, in your infinite wisdom, point out the depth gauge.
Your bravado is amusing.
The irony is fucking amazing.
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That’s a depth micrometer, it doesn’t “use the back”, and that anvil isn’t fitting inside a primer pocket, also, he already outed himself as not having a clue what he’s talking about. Nice try at white knighting for him though. Your type needs to stick together out there.
False. Everyone knows that as a caliper, but please, keep going. This is great.
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Have you ever seen one in person ? They make them plenty small enough for primer pocket work .
I have many. I have one that has a pointed anvil that would be perfect for this application. The one you posted will not work. The one your buddy posted isn’t even a micrometer.
I measure primer pocket depths for every new lot or brand of brass I get. I also measure the height of the primers for each sleeve. When I know these numbers, I can know just how deep I'm seating my primers. . . .especially when my primer pockets are uniform. For fast and accurate measurements of primer pockets and primer seating, I use the Accuracy One Precision Primer Gauge.
My hand primer I like best is the 21st Century Priming Tool, because it's adjustable in .001 increments with a hard stop. . . and the leverage is such that it's really easy on the hands. The only thing I don't like about it is that it indexes of the extractor groove contributing to variation. I've got a Frankford Arsenal one that also is adjustable, but it's harder on the hand and doesn't do as good a job of getting consistent seating depths as the 21st Century. My favorite is my Lee ACP as it's fast and indexes off the base of the cases producing very consistent seating. Though the ACP wasn't designed to be adjustable, a simple modification makes it so.
Because the primer anvil sticks up several thousandths and can vary from one primer to another, I like to make sure the anvil is pushed in where the cup of the primer is touching the base of the primer pocket. Often, that's ~.003 that I'll use after calculating those measurements I took.
Yes I 3-way trim after every firing and like to keep the length in the middle between the Min/Max. When I'm loading long, I'll trim close to the max (like maybe within .002) to get as much bearing surface in contact with the neck's surface as possible. If you're trimming after every firing and keeping the carbon ring under control, it doesn't hurt to be lose to the max.
BTW: I've got a lot of Retumbo as well that I use in my 6.5 PRC, but I found a couple other powder that tend to do just a little better. Like, N565 does the best and seems the easiest to get consistent low SD's and next is the H4831sc.
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I know it won't work...it is a colored illustration for reference only . Not for sale .
I do feel one can get by just fine by annealing after every 3rd firing. A lot depends on just how much work is being done on the brass when it's being sized. Have the sizing die's neck honed so that the neck of the brass isn't being reduced by .010 or so then expanded out by .008 can help a lot with that. I have my sizing dies honed to .003 smaller that where I'll be expanding them to (this too depends on variations one might have in the brass being used). In any case, yes. . . I like annealing after every firing.Thanks for the extra help. I admit, primers are seated by feel using the RCBS automatic bench priming tool, so maybe I need some schooling on that. I stop when I feel them bottom out, and don't crush, then run a finger over to make sure it's just below flush with the case head.
I initially was using Winchester WLRM in the 338 years ago, but got better results when I switched to the 215M. I haven't tried others.
I'm heavily invested in Retumbo, but you may be right. I sure hope you aren't !
The batch of 300PRC brass (200 pcs) is currently finishing up their second firing, about to process for their third. I recently got an AMP and intended to only anneal after every third firing. Are you a proponent of annealing every firing?
IMHO, that Norma brass could be a big part of the issue you have in getting your SD's where you want them. I do think they can be worked and sorted to get you there, but's it takes a little work.
Yeah, I got the Garmin then also. It's the cat's meow for now. Before that I had gone with with MagnetoSpeed v3 and have been waiting for affordable technology that works well to come along.
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