30-06 Improved Cartridges

idrisg · Apr 29, 2021

Hey all,
First off, my apologies if this is the wrong forum to post on, I've just joined roughly a month ago.
I've started going down the reloading/precision shooting/money pit equivalent of Dante's Inferno a year and some change ago.

I shoot 30-06 and have been trying to find ways to improve it. Reading some of P.O. Ackley's handloaders volumes and the 30-06 Ackley Improved which improved burn rate and extended brass life, are there other variants of the cartridge? I know there's the 30-06 Gibbs, the 30-06 Improved 30 Degree shoulder, and the ICL Caribou loads. I'd like to know how these variants improved accuracy, the pros/cons to them and which would be the best choice in a new build?

Any help would be much appreciated, thank you very much. Have a good day all!

CerebralDistortion · Apr 29, 2021

The don't necessarily.

A good barrel fitted by a good smith will do way more than fiddling with a wildcat.

W54/XM-388 · Apr 29, 2021

Are you wanting something more accurate in a relatively "standard" 30-06?
Or are you trying to push it faster?

GMZ · Apr 29, 2021

I personally don’t think and haven’t seen any data to conclude that improving any cartridge will give you better accuracy/precision over a properly chambered cut rifled barrel in the original caliber.

If you’re chasing speed check out the 300 Sherman.

CerebralDistortion · Apr 29, 2021

If he's looking for speed a 280AI goes faster with less recoil. And then there is 6.5-06...

idrisg · Apr 29, 2021

CerebralDistortion said:
The don't necessarily.

A good barrel fitted by a good smith will do way more than fiddling with a wildcat.

Touche, I recently had my rem 700 rebarrelled and blueprinted, by a shop closely related to Bartlein. I felt that it was a good job but not a perfect job. My great uncle brought up the conversation of Ackley improved cartridges and brass life and consistency, I've always been seeing increased deterioration/shortened brass life out my trusty 700 but it may just be my errors and coming to conclusions before I truly understand the reasons behind it.

I guess I'm just nitpicking minor issues on the subject.

The D · Apr 29, 2021

If you want an improved version of the .30-06 or it’s variants, start with a 280ai. Better bc bullets at lighter grains will be much less recoil.

If you don’t have a rifle to build this on yet, that makes it an even easier choice(if I can spend your money for you). Buy an aftermarket action, tikka, or already blueprinted 700 and you can just order as many barrels you want and change them out as you will. You can still reload .30-06, those options are endless, but staying with the standard chambering means you can always find factory ammo almost no matter where in the world you are.

If you’re up for it, you could also have some short action chambered barrrels in a creedmoor or lapua something-or-other made. Just be advised, you may have some feeding problems

The beauty of bolt guns now is that they’re firearm legos like the ar platform, you’re only limited by your imagination

Steel head · Apr 29, 2021

280AI.

Jason280 · Apr 29, 2021

Better bc bullets at lighter grains will be much less recoil.

I'm not sure I agree with "much less recoil". I've never owned a .280 AI, but I have shot a lot of standard .280 and .30-06, and there isn't a whole lot of difference in factory loads until you get to the 180-220gr bullets in the '06...and even then it can be a little subjective. Hornady Light Mags & Federal High Energy .280 ammo feels no different (to me) out of a 700 Mountain Rifle as 150-165gr loads in a Win 70 Featherweight '06. With the .280 AI, you are getting 2800+ fps with 168-175gr bullets, which is virtually the same as what you are getting with the same bullet weight in the '06. Why would there be any difference in recoil?

The D · Apr 29, 2021

Jason280 said:
I'm not sure I agree with "much less recoil". I've never owned a .280 AI, but I have shot a lot of standard .280 and .30-06, and there isn't a whole lot of difference in factory loads until you get to the 180-220gr bullets in the '06...and even then it can be a little subjective. Hornady Light Mags & Federal High Energy .280 ammo feels no different (to me) out of a 700 Mountain Rifle as 150-165gr loads in a Win 70 Featherweight '06. With the .280 AI, you are getting 2800+ fps with 168-175gr bullets, which is virtually the same as what you are getting with the same bullet weight in the '06. Why would there be any difference in recoil?

That may have been a little much, I guess I’ll say less recoil in 280ai as compared to .30-06 loaded with a bullet with the same bc which will be heavier

Steel head · Apr 29, 2021

Recoil is a bit less but the ballistics can be substantially significant.

Schw15 · Apr 29, 2021

Ackley improve cases are really nice. Shot them most of my life or been around them. 6.5-06 ack 6mm ack 6.5-280 ack 30-06 ack. My favorite was the 6.5-280 ack easier for the dies simply buy a 280 ack bushing die and get the right bushings. The brass life is better and no stretching. I say build off of the 280 ackley brass its already blown out makes it very nice. Decide if you want 6.5 7mm or 30 cal and have a wildcat

Steel head · Apr 29, 2021

280AI factory ammunition and brass is actually pretty available in my area.

CerebralDistortion · Apr 30, 2021

Loaded for the same "reach", the 280AI will have less recoil. Hence my recommendation.

If that has any consequence is up to the OP.

Greg Langelius * · May 4, 2021

Were I to rechamber/rebarrel a .30-'06, I'd prefer the 280AI (RCBS). I had some extended playtime with a pair of 280's (Plain Wrapper), found them easy to find accuracy, and very capable of excellent terminal performance without an overload of recoil than the basic .30-'06.. I would consider the 280/280AI to be a relatively more efficient use of the case capacity.

Greg

b6graham · May 4, 2021

280AI

Or any of the Sherman variants

delinquent pleb · May 5, 2021

Pending the application of the OP, I agree with the suggestion of a .280AI. I have owned and loved the .280AI and look forward to getting my next one. I don’t think the recoil differential would be much between 30-06 and .280AI with the same weight projectiles.

silentwoods · May 5, 2021

My 700 build . Blueprinted etc. with a 24" Pac Nor #7. This .30-06 runs 2950 with a 175smk.
500 sea level and 70℅ to 100℅ humidity.

Pretty good load imho.

Lapua brass, fed 210m and R-17. It's like pixie dust in this load.

Pretty good external ballistics in real life, never bothered with the computer version as I developed this load way before I owned a kestrel.But it cuts the wind very nicely and flies flat.
.505 @ 2800 fps off the Sierra website.

Shoots bug holes and has a pretty good BC with the same projo my 308 load uses.

I consider it a 308 Magnum of sorts.

It was a great rifle and load.

Greg Langelius * · May 5, 2021

When I was developing the 280 (not AI), My powders were H-4350 and H-4831. Pressures were mild to moderate. Several 7mm and .308 bullets were available in identical weights, but the 7mm's had higher BC's and shot flatter and further.

I adore the .30-'06, but the 280AI is the better performer.

Greg

Steel head · May 5, 2021

Greg Langelius * said:
When I was developing the 280 (not AI), My powders were H-4350 and H-4831. Pressures were mild to moderate. Several 7mm and .308 bullets were available in identical weights, but the 7mm's had higher BC's and shot flatter and further.

I adore the .30-'06, but the 280AI is the better performer.

Greg

H4831 is magic in 280 an 280AI.

The D · May 6, 2021

Steel head said:
H4831 is magic in 280 an 280AI.

This is a handy bit of info to have, thanks a bunch

Mike Casselton · May 7, 2021

The D said:
This is a handy bit of info to have, thanks a bunch

RE-22 is pretty good too, but I do tend to use IMR 4831

Chickentoast · May 7, 2021

3rd on the Sherman if married to the case.

Dead Eye Dick · May 7, 2021

If you decide to go bigger, I would say the .35 Whelen Improved is recommended over the standard Whelen. Stricky a headspace issue. .35 and 400 Whelen’s are grear rounds for big game hunting, but one must use care when loading due to headspace with those small shoulders .

Nothing wrong with the standard .30-06. Just get a decent barrel, with a good smith using a good reamer. It will all come tougher nicely.

brianf · May 7, 2021

I think I read every post, why does the op want to change?

Accuracy
Long range target shooting
Etc

thanks

olympian · May 7, 2021

Using an improved ‘06 is going to have minimal observable improvement in accuracy of anything other than a target/benchrest rifle. An 30 or 40 degree Ackley version would be what I would build if inclined to do some. I have shot several improved cartridges (7mm and smaller) and prefer them over the standards in some cases. The 30-06 Ackley would be a great all around hunting round if loaded properly. Trimming cases sucks and standard cases stretch way more than an improved.

Kickin45 · Aug 30, 2024

I know this is an old post, but I’m in the process (slow process btw) of building a
30-06AI. The issue is, there are multiple versions nowadays. The original AI is
150-180fps improvement. Not really worth it

However, if and it’s a big if, to locate the reamer and dies, you can find the 30° medium neck AI, it’s a 7 1/2 % increase in powder! Which is, depending on powder choice, about 4-5grn more powder.
Now we’re talkin 300-350fps improvement. So a 175grn at 3000fps with roughly @60-61grn charge, that still shoots off the shelf ammo.
Totally worth it.
But I will admit, finding the components has been a challenge.
And, at what point do you say, “wait a tic, that’s the same charge weight as a 300 SAUM”.
The cool factor/tinkering is there for the 06AI, but lack of support and needed custom components may make it beyond unrealistic.

Criver600 · Aug 31, 2024

Kickin45 said:
I know this is an old post, but I’m in the process (slow process btw) of building a
30-06AI. The issue is, there are multiple versions nowadays. The original AI is
150-180fps improvement. Not really worth it

However, if and it’s a big if, to locate the reamer and dies, you can find the 30° medium neck AI, it’s a 7 1/2 % increase in powder! Which is, depending on powder choice, about 4-5grn more powder.
Now we’re talkin 300-350fps improvement. So a 175grn at 3000fps with roughly @60-61grn charge, that still shoots off the shelf ammo.
Totally worth it.
But I will admit, finding the components has been a challenge.
And, at what point do you say, “wait a tic, that’s the same charge weight as a 300 SAUM”.
The cool factor/tinkering is there for the 06AI, but lack of support and needed custom components may make it beyond unrealistic.

Tried two different barrels, not enough difference to bother. Looking at my notes one picked up 81 fps, the other 89/90. 300 Win Mag for the win. Good Shootin, see you at the range.

CerebralDistortion · Aug 31, 2024

Kickin45 said:
I know this is an old post, but I’m in the process (slow process btw) of building a
30-06AI. The issue is, there are multiple versions nowadays. The original AI is
150-180fps improvement. Not really worth it

However, if and it’s a big if, to locate the reamer and dies, you can find the 30° medium neck AI, it’s a 7 1/2 % increase in powder! Which is, depending on powder choice, about 4-5grn more powder.
Now we’re talkin 300-350fps improvement. So a 175grn at 3000fps with roughly @60-61grn charge, that still shoots off the shelf ammo.
Totally worth it.
But I will admit, finding the components has been a challenge.
And, at what point do you say, “wait a tic, that’s the same charge weight as a 300 SAUM”.
The cool factor/tinkering is there for the 06AI, but lack of support and needed custom components may make it beyond unrealistic.

Lacking lots of info.

Hunting? The AI does nothing over the regular 30-06.

Long range target shooting? There are lots of better options.

Unless you have very specific reasons (and "because I want to" is a viable one) the 30-06AI is a bad choice.

IMO AI conversion should only be done on cartridges that has a "significant" increase in performance, no drawback and has no other cartridge that is it's equal.

There are very few cartridges that fit in this box. 6.5x55 to "6.5x55 BJAI 40°" and 280 Remington to 280AI do (and one more but I've forgot which one). The rest is a waste of money because of the aforementioned reasons.

So what are your reasons? .30 cal? Already got an action? Scratching an itch?

For me they were:
I wanted an AI.
I had a Sako action I wanted to use.
I wanted to have as little recoil as possible without getting into extreme barrel burner territory.
I wanted to reach beyond 1k with ease.

The result was a Sako "TRG" in 280AI.

What's your reasons?

FuhQ · Aug 31, 2024

CerebralDistortion said:
Lacking lots of info.

Hunting? The AI does nothing over the regular 30-06.

Long range target shooting? There are lots of better options.

Unless you have very specific reasons (and "because I want to" is a viable one) the 30-06AI is a bad choice.

IMO AI conversion should only be done on cartridges that has a "significant" increase in performance, no drawback and has no other cartridge that is it's equal.

There are very few cartridges that fit in this box. 6.5x55 to "6.5x55 BJAI 40°" and 280 Remington to 280AI do (and one more but I've forgot which one). The rest is a waste of money because of the aforementioned reasons.

So what are your reasons? .30 cal? Already got an action? Scratching an itch?

For me they were:
I wanted an AI.
I had a Sako action I wanted to use.
I wanted to have as little recoil as possible without getting into extreme barrel burner territory.
I wanted to reach beyond 1k with ease.

The result was a Sako "TRG" in 280AI.

What's your reasons?

You forgot the .25-06 AI 40º... Using the right powder it will produce within 75 FPS of a .257 Wby, with about 10-15 grains LESS powder, with the same bullet. This is a big upgrade over a standard .25-06 Rem. I know this, because I own(ed) both, tested them side-by-side, and ended up getting rid of the .257 Wby, and keeping the .25-06 AI. I have several Ackleys, including a .25-06 AI 40º, .280 Ackley 40º (Nosler/SAAMI spec), .30-06 AI 40º, and a .300 Ackley Magnum (.300 Wby Mag improved with a 40º squared shoulder, also known as the .300 AMU for the Army Marksmanship Unit long range comps).

One of the most overlooked reasons to AI a cartridge is not only the added case capacity, but case design. The AI case design doesn't let brass grow quite like a very low shoulder angle cartridge. The sharper 30º and 40º shoulders with the blown out low taper case walls of the AI case are all contributing factors to eliminate brass growth. Typically you will wear out a case before the grows enough to require trimming, from my experiences.

Kickin45 · Aug 31, 2024

Reasons are “an itch to scratch” and gobs of off the shelf ammo available.

sloporsche · Aug 31, 2024

Criver600 said:
Tried two different barrels, not enough difference to bother. Looking at my notes one picked up 81 fps, the other 89/90. 300 Win Mag for the win. Good Shootin, see you at the range.

this place is terrified of the 300 win mag.....it requires a man-card and the recoil will muss their man buns ......this 6mm country lol and yes i own and shoot my 45 year old 300 winmag

Downtown · Aug 31, 2024

Well, in all fairness, it depends on if one is Elk hunting or playing the PRS game. Many here play the game. The .300 WM would be a terrible detriment to those people.

FuhQ · Aug 31, 2024

sloporsche said:
this place is terrified of the 300 win mag.....it requires a man-card and the recoil will muss their man buns ......this 6mm country lol and yes i own and shoot my 45 year old 300 winmag

I own a .300 WinMag, and even bigger .30 caliber cartridges (see .300 Ackley Magnum above)... While it's a good cartridge, it's still overrated, overhyped, and every LARPing retard wannabe-sniper has to have one, because "...that's what the snipers use, ya know...?"

.

Is that the cartridge's fault? No... But people are stupid, and they ruin everything...It's human nature. Just like the 6.5CM...Very good and efficient design. I liked the idea of it when it first was getting released around 2007...But by the time it started catching on around 2009 or so, it had so much fuddlore attached to it, that I really started to hate it, not for what it was, but the manbun faggots who thought they were suddenly a 1,000 yard sniper because they had one, and the Hornady ads and YouTubers told them it would make them one instantly overnight. I just ordered my first 6.5CM yesterday...Only because I already have a ton of .308's and didn't need another one, I don't give a fuck about the .22 or 6mm Creed, or the Gay.6 Blackout. Figured I'd give one a shot, and if the barrel is junk I'll slap a prefit on it in something I do like.

sierracharlie338 · Aug 31, 2024

FuhQ said:
I own a .300 WinMag, and even bigger .30 caliber cartridges (see .300 Ackley Magnum above)... While it's a good cartridge, it's still overrated, overhyped, and every LARPing retard wannabe-sniper has to have one, because "...that's what the snipers use, ya know...?" .

Is that the cartridge's fault? No... But people are stupid, and they ruin everything...It's human nature. Just like the 6.5CM...Very good and efficient design. I liked the idea of it when it first was getting released around 2007...But by the time it started catching on around 2009 or so, it had so much fuddlore attached to it, that I really started to hate it, not for what it was, but the manbun faggots who thought they were suddenly a 1,000 yard sniper because they had one, and the Hornady ads and YouTubers told them it would make them one instantly overnight. I just ordered my first 6.5CM yesterday...Only because I already have a ton of .308's and didn't need another one, I don't give a fuck about the .22 or 6mm Creed, or the Gay.6 Blackout. Figured I'd give one a shot, and if the barrel is junk I'll slap a prefit on it in something I do like.

Your second paragraph is spot on for me as well. I have a 30 Nosler and 338 Lapua that never get shot because I enjoy shooting everything 308 a lot more lol. I just got a 25 creed finished and am really liking how well it shoots. . .

Op if an AI is what you want, build it! You’ll never know if it will make you happy if you don’t try it.

FuhQ · Aug 31, 2024

sierracharlie338 said:
Your second paragraph is spot on for me as well. I have a 30 Nosler and 338 Lapua that never get shot because I enjoy shooting everything 308 a lot more lol. I just got a 25 creed finished and am really liking how well it shoots. . .

Op if an AI is what you want, build it! You’ll never know if it will make you happy if you don’t try it.

The .25CM is very underrated. Those of us shooting it with modern .257 bullets like the Berger 133's and 135's know what's up. I'm getting 2800 FPS MV from my 20" Proof barreled custom Solus .25CM build with Berger 133's, Alpha brass, CCI 400's, and StaBall 6.5 powder.

image_cropper_82957909-02CC-4CB4-A8F4-86DB98C26A8F-485-000002A84CC08B50.jpeg

sierracharlie338 · Aug 31, 2024

FuhQ said:
The .25CM is very underrated. Those of us shooting it with modern .257 bullets like the Berger 133's and 135's know what's up. I'm getting 2800 FPS MV from my 20" Proof barreled custom Solus .25CM build with Berger 133's, Alpha brass, CCI 400's, and StaBall 6.5 powder.

Yes sir, they bad!

CerebralDistortion · Sep 1, 2024

FuhQ said:
You forgot the .25-06 AI 40º... Using the right powder it will produce within 75 FPS of a .257 Wby, with about 10-15 grains LESS powder, with the same bullet. This is a big upgrade over a standard .25-06 Rem. I know this, because I own(ed) both, tested them side-by-side, and ended up getting rid of the .257 Wby, and keeping the .25-06 AI. I have several Ackleys, including a .25-06 AI 40º, .280 Ackley 40º (Nosler/SAAMI spec), .30-06 AI 40º, and a .300 Ackley Magnum (.300 Wby Mag improved with a 40º squared shoulder, also known as the .300 AMU for the Army Marksmanship Unit long range comps).

One of the most overlooked reasons to AI a cartridge is not only the added case capacity, but case design. The AI case design doesn't let brass grow quite like a very low shoulder angle cartridge. The sharper 30º and 40º shoulders with the blown out low taper case walls of the AI case are all contributing factors to eliminate brass growth. Typically you will wear out a case before the grows enough to require trimming, from my experiences.

Forgot? Not "aware" maybe. It is also a cartridge that's more of a wildcat of a wildcat, even though it has been around since -69.
It is also a cartridge that falls in the category more powder for it's own sake which is quite inefficient. I digress.

Yes. Brass growth is one big factor in me wanting an AckImp.

Kickin45 said:
Reasons are “an itch to scratch” and gobs of off the shelf ammo available.

Then go for it!

FuhQ · Sep 1, 2024

CerebralDistortion said:
Forgot? Not "aware" maybe. It is also a cartridge that's more of a wildcat of a wildcat, even though it has been around since -69.
It is also a cartridge that falls in the category more powder for it's own sake which is quite inefficient. I digress.

Yes. Brass growth is one big factor in me wanting an AckImp.

Then go for it!

It’s actually extremely efficient…60gr of powder doing the same work of 75gr of powder in the .257 Wby for nearly equal ballistics in same length barrels. When is the last time you saw a cartridge that maxed 60gr of powder pushing a 115 bullet ~3400 FPS from only a 26” barrel?

CerebralDistortion · Sep 1, 2024

FuhQ said:
It’s actually extremely efficient…60gr of powder doing the same work of 75gr of powder in the .257 Wby for nearly equal ballistics in same length barrels. When is the last time you saw a cartridge that maxed 60gr of powder pushing a 115 bullet ~3400 FPS from only a 26” barrel?

When I last looked through Nosler's reloading data for the 280AI. 120 gr bullet, so a bit less BC and a bit more energy.

Rust · Sep 2, 2024

The OP was concerned the -06. With powders available today, a 30-06 AI will gain about 150 fps over a plain -06 with bullets in the 150-180 gr range. A .300 WM will be about 150 fps over that. An AI doesn't stretch brass much if at all, -06 brass and loaded ammo are everywhere and relatively inexpensive, and you don't have to dick with a belted case. The -06 AI makes an already versatile chambering more versatile AND standard -06 can be fired in an AI chamber no problem so sourcing ammo in a pinch isn't a problem. The -06 AI is probably one of the easiest/simplest Ackleys to work with.

If for some reason an -06 of any flavor simply isn't enough gun, get a big magnum, .300 RUM or 30-378 Wby.

Guess I'm not a flavor of the week sort of guy.

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