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So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today
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It's all been seen before in other disciplines.
In the clay target sports for example; they've had handicap comps for decades. It didn't start off that way though. There was a gradual change in rules, target speed, target departure angle, shot size & weight & distance from the traps.
As sports mature from their inceptions, there is a growth in the number professionals or semi professionals which unintentionally hijack the sport until changes & systems are implemented, most often to address dwindling participation numbers.
There are a number of things I can think of such as changes in target size relative to shooter ability. Shooter grades, AA, A, B,C & etc.
There are many ways the sport can be improved from a competition perspective, it's more a question of the governing bodies willingness to make the changes.
In the clay target sports for example; they've had handicap comps for decades. It didn't start off that way though. There was a gradual change in rules, target speed, target departure angle, shot size & weight & distance from the traps.
As sports mature from their inceptions, there is a growth in the number professionals or semi professionals which unintentionally hijack the sport until changes & systems are implemented, most often to address dwindling participation numbers.
There are a number of things I can think of such as changes in target size relative to shooter ability. Shooter grades, AA, A, B,C & etc.
There are many ways the sport can be improved from a competition perspective, it's more a question of the governing bodies willingness to make the changes.
I am a long time competitor in IHMSA. Where once, handgun matches proliferated in Louisiana and Mississippi and one had to make a reservation days if not weeks in advance to have a spot to shoot, participation had seriously fallen off. There were no Centerfire silhouette matches in Louisiana and only one in Mississippi.
In an effort to get the sport restarted, we rebuilt an old silhouette range on Transport road east of Weston, Louisiana in 2008 and held matches at that range (Handgun Silhouette) for four years. At first we were getting 20 or more entries. However, we ended when participation dropped to zero. Our Friend, Charlie Braud, took up the challenge and moved the matches to Top Shot in Hodge, Louisiana. As of the last two years, he has been the only competitor at those matches. The matches also host Cowboy small bore silhouette and as of late, only one competitor has shown up.
We go to Charlies’ matches just to try to meet old friends when we are in Louisiana. His last match, he set out some half scale silhouettes for Brenda and I to shoot. Charlie and I have discussed getting into the Precision Rifle matches. However, as I will be 76 in a few days and he is 74, we are both getting a bit long in the tooth to host, much less set up targets for matches.
Final thought. unless I can convince Charlie to give up his match date at Top Shot and use it to hold money making precision .22 matches (for us and for the range) and we are successful, he is going to loose his match date reservation.
This can be the future of PRS/NRL.
Note, because both handgun silhouette and rifle silhouette use a fixed course of fire, there is not an issue with the match director competing in the matches he/she is hosting. And, many of the complaints discussed in this thread were also brought forth on web IHMSA discussions in the early to mid 2000’s. (Too easy, guns too complicated/expensive, production class is a mess etc).
You asked.
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Consider that in order to qualify for semi-finals and finals, one must have shot a qualifier. If there were fewer qualifiers and local competitors had to travel 4-6 hours to attend a 1-day qualifier match, don’t you think that would be a bigger issue for those people than your perceived problem of too many qualifiers?
You really think that is what’s affecting quality of a match?
Yep, that's basically along the same lines I mentioned.
For guys who are interested & competitive, it's almost a dream to be recognised as a top shooter. The reality though, consists of guys who have the money & time to be the best &, that's ok & there's nothing wrong with that. I did that myself in sporting clays. Bought a new expensive shotgun, had it fitted to me, bought $5K worth of cartridges & spent the next 2 years practice shooting every spare moment I had &, I reloaded all those cartridges 3 x each as well. Cost me prolly 20K or more over about 3 1/2 years but I got to AA grade in relatively short time. The problem is, most guys can't afford that & they get jacked with never taking a win or even getting close so, they just fall away because they aren't competitive. That's where a shooting grading & handicap system get the average guys, who, are the bread & butter of most clubs, a fighting chance to win legitimately against those who simply have more time & money at their disposal. I've heard the argument a dozen times about whether or not a financial advantage is a legitimate advantage. My thinking is that there can be "winner takes all" no handicap matches. That's only fair to the guys who can afford to boost themselves but, they have to have competed in a certain number of handicap comps throughout the year to qualify for open entry. So no four flushers or dark horses &, they pay hard to play hard.
During most of the season with a grade system, the AA boys have to work their ass's off to keep their status but, cannot fall below "A" grade, ever, no matter how badly they may score. So no grade sitters or circling sharks.
There's plenty that can be done to enhance the competitive enjoyment for all the members &, it's a far better settup than watching the sharks bleed the comp dry & destroy the discipline as a result.
To be honest, it's a wonder that PRS has gone this long without having done something about the situation.
As much as I hate to say it, there's unspoken volumes right there with regard to the motivation of the guys running the show. I don't believe their priority is in the welfare of the sport.
Just sayin.
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That’s a really good description of what is happening where I see.
Competitions are just that, compete amongst peers.
Train and practice on your own time and show up to a match to “compete”.
I’m sure glad the football games played on Saturday are competitions and not training sessions
Train and practice on your own time and show up to a match to “compete”.
I’m sure glad the football games played on Saturday are competitions and not training sessions
Shoot to improve. Shoot to have fun. Compete against your last result.
Handicapping. Smh.
Like the kids sports that don’t keep score.
Spoken as a mid / upper mid pack shooter on my best day.
Raffling off prizes versus walking the table I could see. That would definitely reduce the pro shooter participation and make the poor shooters more likely to come. Lol
Handicapping. Smh.
Like the kids sports that don’t keep score.
Spoken as a mid / upper mid pack shooter on my best day.
Raffling off prizes versus walking the table I could see. That would definitely reduce the pro shooter participation and make the poor shooters more likely to come. Lol
Losing gives you motivation to try harder practice more and get better
Well, I think the particular discipline governs the essence of the competition.Competitions are just that, compete amongst peers.
Train and practice on your own time and show up to a match to “compete”.
I’m sure glad the football games played on Saturday are competitions and not training sessions
In the case of PRS, I have always understood that it was basically a form of competition/practice as a simulation for military sniper & sharp shooters. Ofcourse PRS has evolved as all disciplines do but, I think there's a valid argument to the question of the relevance of the current manner of the competition with respect to the original intent.
PRS is just a game played with rifles. The vast majority of participants are just regular Joe’s in it just for “fun”. It’s not meant to sharpen GI Joe’s sniper skills for real life scenarios.
Some folks just don’t like to see a movement pass them by.
My guess is that, since his initial gripe was in part that he thinks there are too many shooters with 300 points, which would have to include a win at a qualifier, he thinks that reducing the number of qualifiers would be the best way to reduce the number of guys with 300 points. But I don't really understand how having a bunch of shooters maxed out going into the finale is a bad thing, or why that would matter to anyone since everything will change after the regional finale anyways.
I'm honestly a little baffled by his complaint, since it seems to be essentially "if there weren't so many opportunities for other people to shoot and earn points I would be ranked closer to what I think I deserve." The thing about guys with 300 points not being able to continue competing for points goes along with that.
I agree.
The question is; what is the motivation?
Attending what are basically "open comps" , week in & week out, having to compete with what amounts to be professional (sponsored) shooters, isn't much motivation if your financial situation precludes you from "practicing more".
Grading systems pretty much automate the tier structure by enabling the "have nots" the chance to succeed within their grade because most "C" or "B" graders are in the same boat from a financial perspective &, those that start off "C" grade who are not financially or time challenged, get booted up to their next challenge without impeding the grade below them.
After having competed in the shotgun disciplines for over 35 years, I know that most guys who never get past "B" or "A" know why.
They just want to be able to enjoy themselves & have a fair go at testing themselves within the limits of their situation & maybe even win something every now & again. These guys know they'll never be "top shooters" but, they love their sport nonetheless & are content to compete at whatever level they attain within the means & constraints that their situation dictates.
Unfortunately, elitistism usually kills most sports, especially at the grass roots level &, PRS is looking down the barrel of oblivion unless pride is pushed aside.
I agree but, I didn't take the practice scenario as something that should be implemented all the time.
I think the intention was that some elements of the practices of rifleman could be interwoven into the comp within specific matches.
If done well, it may enhance the fun & keep guys coming back.
I can't see any harm in trialling different things.
It's not that hard, you know.
This is what I do, I’m a decent local match shooter. Hell I’m at 25th in the Central region in a year where I’ve only been able to shoot 6 matches this year due to medical issues. Though I haven’t shot a qualifier this year because of the crap I had going on this year.
My motto has always been that you just need to beat the guys that you rode with to the match. The shit talking on the way home is part of the fun. But with all that said I’ll probably not be a PRS member next year, I’ll still shoot all the matches but I don’t see the need to be a member. PRS really doesn’t do anything for me but that’s just me. I enjoy shooting the one day matches more than anything and feel the two day matches are just too taxing on my body at my age. It’s a costly sport and that part is hard on new shooters or people that don’t make a really good living, that and I feel the production class which is a good way to introduce new shooters is a complete joke. Production is pretty much no less cost than a full custom open class gun.
To get back to what I believe Frank intended when he started this thread, there needs to be some regular and incremental changes to the way PRS is run in order for it to survive long term. The trend towards .22 comps is one thing, but is in and of itself not an actual change in method and can only increase membership for so long before it too starts to decline.
These changes can only come from the organization itself, meaning membership input (and yes, even outsider input) and a leadership that understands that change is necessary. Just like in industry and commerce. The saying goes, if you are not growing and improving your product and processes, you’re losing.
These types of threads, while often devolving into messy complaining and bitching, even pissing matches, are a necessary feedback loop for that change. The organization would be reckless and wrong to dismiss them outright or scoff at the need and does so at its own risk.
These changes can only come from the organization itself, meaning membership input (and yes, even outsider input) and a leadership that understands that change is necessary. Just like in industry and commerce. The saying goes, if you are not growing and improving your product and processes, you’re losing.
These types of threads, while often devolving into messy complaining and bitching, even pissing matches, are a necessary feedback loop for that change. The organization would be reckless and wrong to dismiss them outright or scoff at the need and does so at its own risk.
Yes, I did ask.
Thanks for the reply.
I was just curious.
We never did get wind of you matches.
I knew the Hub City Rifle and Pistol club close to Lafayette used to have a serious attendance with their IHMSA style handgun silhouette matches in the 70"s 80's. We used to drive to shoot those matches.
Since the mid 70's, the Murdock family was running the annual Highpower Rifle Silhouette match every year coinciding with the Zwolle Tamale festival. I think they stopped running those only in the last few years. We used to make that every year.
Winnsboro used to host the rimfire rifle silhouette championships with huge turnouts and we would always go.
The Fuselier Complex near Arnaudville is starting to have High Power Rifle Silhouette and Rimfire Silhouette matches now.
You should break out your rifle and figure out when their next match is.
The range, we rebuilt, was five miles from our home. I was teaching and got home about 4 everyday. Kept swingers in the back of an old suburban, packed the XP and rounds and headed off to practice. And practice I did, at least three times a week, usually more. Got to International class. Can’t go any higher in Handgun Silhouette. Even had people talk about me on range forums like I was something special. (I’m not nor never really was but what I earned, I earned)
So, to make a long story short, my first few PRS matches were VERY BITTER PILLS! I was used to competing for the win, and now, I was struggling to not be last place. Didn’t help that age and more age kept me from being able to shoot positional effectively either in IHMSA (Creedmoor) and PRS movement. However
The biggest improvement in my shooting? (and this is important) I tamed my ego. Sport is supposed to be fun. However, it is what WE as individuals make it for ourselves.
"from the organization itself".... Most of the complaints are from outsider input. To this day, matches still sell out and how long have people stated PRS is dying?
And the ones that have the ability to make change, don't want to make it because it's too hard. Bitching and complaining only go so far. I have guys on my team that make AAR comments, I tell them it's a great complaint, now your in charge and you fix it. Most of the time, they say fuck that and go back to vaping.
This conversation has been had a million times. If shooters wanted to run around with 12 pound rifles and shoot practical UKD stages the Vortex Team Sniper challenge series would of panned out. (Not knocking it, I shot it and did well)… truth is the guys who can afford to compete are middle aged guys not wanting to beat up their bodies but want to portray the cool sniper type guy image to friends and family, they want to shoot small targets at long distances from positions that look cool in their profile pictures (I am self aware and freely admit this). Let’s not pretend that this sport is anything other than tactical golf. Once they do start shooting matches they meet like minded people and make great friendships though, don’t let the stigma on here rob you of the opportunity to find camaraderie outside of a digital forum! The forum is a great place to start the conversations or get caught up for the new people but the matches are a place to validate the viewpoints.
At my very best, we put a borrowed high powered scope on Brenda’s 541S and tried to get ready for the Winnsboro matches. I was T E R R I B L E !!! Terry at Diamond was shooting those matches and loaned me the scope. I don’t get up that way to visit Diamond Gun anymore since neither Brenda no longer work in Monroe. I do try to stop in when I shoot at Prince. Miss them, they are good people. (Still kind enough do my transfers when I order a rifle but that’s about it and when I do drop by I always try to buy something of value.)
As far as our matches,, we had a couple of good write ups in the silhouette paper. But the Dugdemona range and Jonesboro/Weston is just too far out of the way. The cost to hire target setters was too much to justify considering the lack of participation. So that left it to Brenda and I and that was too much for what was happening.
Anyway, can’t shoot creedmoor painlessly anymore so that is the end of my silhouette days. They still have a big bore match at New Braunfel, Texas and I think another in Northwest Georgia, both of which are at least three day trips or more. I have to admit, I am having way too much fun shooting PRS with my little Vudoo at home and also at my first .22PRS match.
What I am thinking of is the 22lr matches at Fusillier and Palo Alto. Gonna try to talk Charlie into attending one at Palo Alto since he lives in that neck of the woods.
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Indeed, Terry Johnson and his family are great peeps. They are some of the best ambassadors to the sport and 2A in general.
I think some of those matches we attended used to line up 4-H and high school kids months in advance with little or no pay but would provide all the food and beverages they could eat plus really nice swag bags. It seemed to work pretty well with minimal strain on the club $.
Both facilities and clubs have great people.
I don't know what you're referring to when you mention the "changes" but, it certainly isn't difficult to devise a grading tier & simply slot competitors in a grade with reference to a score range.
In the shotgun disciplines a percentage system is used eg; AA = 96%+, A = 87% to 95% & so on. Grade movement is achieved through a score basis with one or two higher % scores booting you up to next grade but, 4 or 6 low scores before you can be downgraded with "AA", once attained, never dropping below "A" grade.
The idea being that everyone shoots the same comp & are subject to the same scores or, some specific elements could be modified eg; target size. The general idea is that the four grades; AA, A, B, & C compete both, against all those within their own grade &, within the overall comp. It's a simple matter of splitting 1st, 2nd, & 3rd into each grade with an "overall" or "high score" in addition.
This is a very good system from the perspective of match noms & club membership & fees. In this way, the majority of the club members aren't just subsidizing the top shooters all the time.
In this way, everyone competes relatively equally with their piers & have a real chance of winning something.
Because the are still based on the competition scores, it is theoretically possible for "C" grader to take overall but then, some serious review of the grading structure or grade placement would normally have to be considered.
Grading systems are easy to apply & very low cost.
Bullshit. Those of us that have been members of PRS since 2012 or so can tell you that incremental change has to come about or it will fade. Believe it or not, I don’t care. The whole “All the bitchers are from outside.” view is a burying your head in the sand world view and another way to ignore valid input.
You are displaying the exact attitude you say doesn’t exist. You have people making suggestions and giving feedback, but your response is to tell them that they need to make changes, not you. You are the MD and you have the power to make meaningful changes and give meaningful input.
The fact that you admittedly are not open to making meaningful change yourself is exactly what we are saying.
But you keep going right ahead doing what you’re doing. Hell, you’re making money right? And that’s all that matters…
We used this system in IHMSA; B, A, AA, AAA, International. In the early days, There were some who sandbagged to continue to win their classes. Same thing in cycling. In the later years, everyone wanted to be part of the “cool kids” group and I never saw sandbagging. A big thing, self scoring was easy to accomplish and I can’t ever remember anyone padding their score. Something that can’t work in PRS, even with two or more watching for the hits, its still hard at times to tell a hit from a miss.
I have an idea to solve the prize table issue. Be like the oscars, give every entrant a “goodie” bag with equal prizes. Heck, we could even have a red carpet for all the shooters to walk in. Instead of displaying ultra expensive (and often exceptionally ugly) clothes, we can display our ultra expensive rifles.
I know, I’ll shut up and go away.
I know, I’ll shut up and go away.
I wasn't referring to "self scoring".
Everything continues on the same accept you just write names on the score board in grade groups. Couldn't be easier.
So, there would be 1st, 2nd & 3rd in "C" Grade. Same again in "B" grade & so fourth.
There's a lot more prizes but they don't have to be expensive. Just seeing a kid or Newby pick up their 1st prize is priceless.
Up until this time, I hadn't realised all you guys had no grade system in PRS. Fuck, that's 60 years at least behind the rest of the world.
I can tell you, there's no way I would have been handing my money over at every match just to see the same hand full of fancy pants, swanning up to the prize table & walking away with all the loot.
I can't believe that's acceptable to the 99% of guys falking out their shekels.
Just my opinion but, if the pro's are only turning up for the prizes & nothing else, show em the door. If all they want to be is leaches at every club shoot, you don't need em.
I've seen a few arseholes like that at my clubs over the years &, they soon get told to fuck off.
I guess I just don't understand how having 13 qualifier matches in the central region is a good thing. If I remember correctly twisted barrel got 3 of those qualifier matches. I'm all for a match being reasonably close for a shooter to get a qualifier score at but my opinion having 13 qualifier matches in a season seems very watered down in my opinion.
You know a lot of matches like club matches etc don’t have prize tables.
People shoot them cause they like shooting.
Shocking I know
Understood, not implying that’s what is needed. I just threw it in.
I kind a like the way Altus hands out prizes. And I would. They gave the two people who traveled the furthest a free barrel from Proof, the title sponsor. Won one this year. Turned one down last year in deference for another person to win. At the finals in November, same thing. If I am the furthest, I will turn it down. Not greedy, but do enjoy a perk. (And in these days of biden inflation, us retirees do like a perk every now and then.). In fact, I think this will be the last I ever win. No point, other’s need to share.
A good many of the top shooters leave the prize on the table for the club to use next shoot. Our prizes aren't expensive & one of the local wineries sponsors most if not all the club & major shoots.
It's not the prizes perse, it's just the feeling of winning something, especially the young & Newby's that they have something to say they won.
I've never competed for the prizes. There's never been anything that I couldn't easily afford myself.
I have to say though, it's a bit different how competition is perceived & viewed in my country.
We have the same problem in AZ. Centerfire Silhouette is damn near dead. Our club hosts informal silhouette matches each Friday during the winter and we get 30+ people for 22 and maybe eight for heavies.
I host NRL Hunter and Quantified Performance matches at the same range and sell those matches out.
What do think is the difference?
Do you think it may be that NRL Hunter is less expensive, from a hardware perspective or, is the comp a little more evenly displaced because of the rifle weight?
Movement. It's all about movement and adrenaline. Our club used to sponsor "Sniper matches" once a month, and it was painful. 13 guys would spend 4 hrs to shoot 16 rds each. No concept of squads, or multi-shot/multi-target engagements. 1-3 shots on a single target, each person on the line taking a shot in succession. All belly shooting.
With PRS/NRL it's all about the movement and number of shots, over the traditional rifle shooting comps (not counting 3 gun). People want to shoot their guns, not spend 3/4 of their time waiting to shoot, and bullshitting with fellow competitors (though PRS/NRL still have their share of those too).
Honestly, Frank and others of his era really pioneered this sport. In that, they figured out how to move 200+ shooters through 10-15 stages in a single day. That constant movement, and constant change of target presentation is what attracts people to this, over say, silhouette shooting.
The number of shooters is what made it financially viable to host.
Yep, I see what you mean.
It's a bit like golf for me. I love driving ranges but golf the game, is just a good walk ruined.
I think the draw for NRL Hunter is there are a lot more hunters than competitive shooters and it somewhat replicates hunting scenarios.
QP matches are fast and furious with hits required (no round count) vs hit or miss.
Thanks for that. I wondered what Qualified Performance referred to.
Sounds exciting though.
I've never attended a PRS match but, I have a pretty darn good PRS rifle.
Qualifiers:
Shooters that have shot at least one Qualifier match are now highlighted in yellow on the PRS website in the standings and also have a checkmark next to their score on their profile. Shooters with this denotation are in the running for an invitation to a year-end finale.
A shooter can still acquire 300 points in the standings, but not be Finale qualified. This means they did not shoot a qualifier.
Shooters that do not choose to shoot a qualifier will not be eligible for a Finale invitation.
This applies to both the PRS Regional Series and the Pro Series.
How Scores Are Calculated:
A shooters season points will be a sum of their three best scores, which may or may not include a qualifier.
A “Qualified” shooters score will be a sum of their top qualifier score and their next two highest scores (the next two highest scores may or may not be qualifiers).
In order to be qualified to shoot in a Regional or Pro series finale a shooter must shoot at least one qualifier as one of their 3 match scores.
I think the expectation is that this model will not work long term without more shooter renewal than is available.
What do you think about the system though?
The grading system I've put fwd is standard fair in the shotgun disciplines & has been for decades.
It's a great system because it gets everyone involved & not just the top tier shooters.
Why do you believe more shooters are necessary?
The grading system would be wonderful. If PRS doesn’t adopt something like that, I think shooters will be quitting faster than new shooters join. At it stands now, 90% of non-local shooters are paying big $$$$ in travel and match fees for practice rounds. The glory wears thin real fast.
Good cut and paste that gives the answer without any personal interpretation.
It also answers your question as to why top shooters will continue to shoot qualifiers even if they have high scores and why there are so many qualifier matches.
I don't know what the "club" situation is like in the US but, in my country, if the majority of members want change, they just get together, turn up at the A & G, vote that committee out, vote the new committee in & change the way shit runs.
Food for thought maybe.
Here in the states we don't get a vote. PRS has a hand picked committee. My opinion that is part of the problem. Your membership does not give you a voice or a vote.
I’m not an MD!?!? Not sure where that came from. These complaints are from 2012! Over 10 years later, I hope you can see its small noise. If it was true, shouldn’t prs have died after 3 years because that’s the burnout rate?
But now turn it to you and lowlight. Make the change you want to see. You won’t, that’s the main point I’m getting at. If you’re not willing to do it yourself l, why should someone else? Especially when it’s a very small population.
Sounds like a fixed race to me. A lot of latitude for corruption.
That's a real shit situation that is.
We actually have registered sport & novelty clubs act covered by State law & regulation.
The act was brought into power to allow Tax Free status &, to provide some regulatory protection from just the kind of situation you referred to.
Sounds like nothing more than a HOA.
