What cement admixtures would help bullet resistance?

c1steve · Oct 29, 2024

I would like to build a composite metal deck in a new ICF house. The steel deck will be supported by Watkins hangers and steel joists, which are very strong. However I would like to keep the weight of the concrete to a moderate level, so I am investigating admixtures to improve bullet resistance to pistol rounds, .223, and 7.62x39 ammo.

Normally 8" of concrete is needed, I am hoping to have good bullet resistance in 4" or less. Any recommendations? The house is in a very nice neighborhood, I am mostly thinking of a "what if" situation and trying to be prepared.

Fig · Oct 29, 2024

Steel fibers or poly-steel fibers are the most common, and also are the best in increasing abrasion resistance, which sounds like what you’re looking for.

Bullfrog08 · Oct 29, 2024

#4 reinforcing steel at 1/2" OC should do the trick!

Sniperwannabee · Oct 29, 2024

Please post pics when completed!

roostercogburn98 · Oct 29, 2024

Brick with wood frame and ballistic drywall in the middle?

akmike47 · Oct 29, 2024

Die like a man

texastonk · Oct 29, 2024

Fig said:
Steel fibers or poly-steel fibers are the most common, and also are the best in increasing abrasion resistance, which sounds like what you’re looking for.

This, Have also used fiberglass mesh and carbon fiber mesh with the steel fibers.

c1steve · Oct 29, 2024

roostercogburn98 said:
Brick with wood frame and ballistic drywall in the middle?

The outside will have 8" core concrete walls, but the overhead ceiling between floors is what I am working on.

TexPatriot · Oct 29, 2024

2'x2'x6' sawed limestone quarry block or 12" thick Gunite with #4 rebar on 10" centers so the King's men can't easily punch through it like they did at Waco.

You'd have to design a roof or cover thats bomb proof, otherwise the whole thing would be a roaring incinerator.

I too have pondered this. The cabin I live in would be like trying to hide in a wooden deer blind.

Fig · Oct 29, 2024

I've poured a bunch of heavy industrial floors for manufacturing, and if you want it to be stronger than concrete the steel fiber is the way to go, but it won't be lighter. Reinforced concrete weighs more per cubic foot than plain high portland concrete. There are plenty of light concretes, but they're not anywhere near as strong. That said, you can make it thinner with more abrasion resistance so possibly lighter on that note alone. I have no idea what the equivalents are, but any tier one concrete company will have multiple options.

theLBC · Oct 29, 2024

https://fortifiedestate.com/how-to-bulletproof-walls/

sirhrmechanic · Oct 29, 2024

This thread totally requires bow kills and bench press numbers before we provide any input on concrete work.

Think we are going to give away our secrets to someone who doesn’t have lots of bow kills and can’t provide off-the-charts bench numbers???

I don’t think so!!!

Sirhr

Aftermath · Oct 29, 2024

A good absorption layer(s) is what you need. Something to absorb the energy so that the impact on the concrete is minimal. Like almost everything, the strength is in the sum of the parts.
Layering be yer frind agin.
Concrete, rubber, wood, ceramic plates, kevlar, dirt and rocks, sand (especially wet). Also, keeping a small separation between layers helps prevent shock being transferred to the next layer.

Of course, if it were me, I'd be figuring out some reactive armor designed to blow crap back in the direction from where it came.

P-Squared · Oct 29, 2024

Aftermath said:
A good absorption layer(s) is what you need. Something to absorb the energy so that the impact on the concrete is minimal. Like almost everything, the strength is in the sum of the parts.
Layering be yer frind agin.
Concrete, rubber, wood, ceramic plates, kevlar, dirt and rocks, sand (especially wet). Also, keeping a small separation between layers helps prevent shock being transferred to the next layer.

Of course, if it were me, I'd be figuring out some reactive armor designed to blow crap back in the direction from where it came.

Stacked bodies make a good absorption layer.... protect the concrete, it's expensive.

91Eunozs · Oct 29, 2024

Assuming this is a serious question, ceramic tile on the inside is also a good way to dissipate the energy of any projectiles. This creates a shrapnel hazard of course, but there’s easier ways to defeat that risk.

Depending on your budget, you could also hang ballistic cloth panels under the drywall. Have a couple friends with that in the walls facing the street, and around the safe room.

c1steve · Oct 29, 2024

Aftermath said:
A good absorption layer(s) is what you need. Something to absorb the energy so that the impact on the concrete is minimal. Like almost everything, the strength is in the sum of the parts.
Layering be yer frind agin.
Concrete, rubber, wood, ceramic plates, kevlar, dirt and rocks, sand (especially wet). Also, keeping a small separation between layers helps prevent shock being transferred to the next layer.

Of course, if it were me, I'd be figuring out some reactive armor designed to blow crap back in the direction from where it came.

I have been thinking about having Rhino Liner sprayed on the underside of the hard pan. It would be tough to sand the underside, although it could be done before the panels were installed. What is used, it would have to stick to vertical overhead.

c1steve · Oct 29, 2024

91Eunozs said:
Assuming this is a serious question, ceramic tile on the inside is also a good way to dissipate the energy of any projectiles. This creates a shrapnel hazard of course, but there’s easier ways to defeat that risk.

Depending on your budget, you could also hang ballistic cloth panels under the drywall. Have a couple friends with that in the walls facing the street, and around the safe room.

The whole house will be a safe room, except there will be windows. I plan on using ballistic sheets under some of the vertical drywall.

Oldrifle · Oct 29, 2024

A bomb-proof roof or cover would be necessary; otherwise, the entire structure would be a roaring incinerator.
bench press data are absolutely necessary for this discussion.

Ronws · Oct 29, 2024

sirhrmechanic said:
This thread totally requires bow kills and bench press numbers before we provide any input on concrete work.

Think we are going to give away our secrets to someone who doesn’t have lots of bow kills and can’t provide off-the-charts bench numbers???

I don’t think so!!!

Sirhr

I have not killed any bows but I do have a really tight 1 shot grouping with my rifle..

Aftermath · Oct 29, 2024

c1steve said:
The whole house will be a safe room, except there will be windows. I plan on using ballistic sheets under some of the vertical drywall.

Riot Glass: Reliable Security Glass Company | Made In The USA

Riot Glass® security glass products represent the best of the best in window and glass door protection.

www.riotglass.com

91Eunozs · Oct 29, 2024

c1steve said:
The whole house will be a safe room, except there will be windows. I plan on using ballistic sheets under some of the vertical drywall.

Layers then, with a safe room that has the highest rating you can afford.

I went with just rock and stucco, with a few ballistic fiberglass panels and/or ballistic cloth panels strategically placed on a couple of the outer walls; primarily the ones on either side of our front porch, and two walls of our bedroom…the windows are still huge weak points of course.

The 5’ x8’ semi-hidden (disguised entry point) safe room…really more of a tornado shelter with an inward-opening walk in safe door…is all 1/4” steel, including the 7’ high ceiling. The ‘room’ has AR 500 panels between the steel panel seams of the walls, and the ceiling has a kevlar cloth “blanket” bolted down to the top on the outside, but it’s really just a shrapnel catcher vs. actual ballistic protection. The entire safe room’s outer facing walls are behind a wall that has rock on the outside, and cement backer board + ceramic tile on the inside (it’s inside where we once had a huge shower).

There’s about a 1/2” air gap between the tile and the steel structure, and kind of wishing I’d wrapped the entire outside with that kevlar blanket material too, but we had to cut expenses somewhere, and at the time I didn’t think it was worth it, since we already had AR 500 panels going inside the steel structure.

Wasn’t cheap, but I sleep better knowing it’s there.

Edit: If you’re pouring the walls and ceiling, you could just integrate vault doors like these, and add ballistic layers on the inside to meet whatever threat you deem appropriate.

Aftermath · Oct 29, 2024

Riot glass is just one brand.

I have a nephew that does window tinting. They have a contract with a couple stealerships and do all of their cars.

There is a window film that provides amazing protection. The sheriffs department had them apply the stuff to their station. Then the city did the cop shops and fire stations. Then all of the schools had it done. It is very effective....and Ii guess it is also very profitable.

EDIT: FUNNY that the sheriff did not have the stuff applied to windows where they hold prisoners...hahaha!!

Atomic_Lobster · Oct 29, 2024

sirhrmechanic said:
This thread totally requires bow kills and bench press numbers before we provide any input on concrete work.

Think we are going to give away our secrets to someone who doesn’t have lots of bow kills and can’t provide off-the-charts bench numbers???

I don’t think so!!!

Sirhr

I have my bow set to 60 pounds
That's what I bench easily
I think I have at least 0 bow kills
Do I get to see the secrets

Jigstick · Oct 29, 2024

Wait….so 556 can penetrate 8in of non reinforced concrete?

TexPatriot · Oct 29, 2024

Aftermath said:
Riot Glass: Reliable Security Glass Company | Made In The USA

Riot Glass® security glass products represent the best of the best in window and glass door protection.

www.riotglass.com

Plus, you need a secret trap door and tunnel so you can escape.

You can come up behind them and ask what they're shooting at.

Aftermath · Oct 29, 2024

Here is where I am at on all of this...
Protect the envelope. Harden all entry points.
If "they" get inside, they should be targets of opportunity, fish in a barrel.
Figure out defensive positions with the points of entry in mind. Solid core doors, big planters with real dirt in them...
Make an actual panic room out of your safe room.
Shooting through the floors would never be my concern.

Sean the Nailer · Oct 29, 2024

Pre-WWII, the germans came up with a method of reinforcing their concrete. They did so, with the bunkers and sub-pens and such that they built. They also shared the recipe with the japanese forces, whom used said recipe on their bunkers and whatnot on the islands.

There are many concrete fortifications that still stand, to this day.

Might want to do a bit of research into what these recipes are. I seem to remember that 'soda ash' made a very big difference.

Now, as for 'bow kills'... it is very inconvenient for me to use a bow, considering one hand is always on the cane. The world is a safer place, and crime is all-but-forgotten since the LIEberals banned tridents and their ilk, up here. A few decades ago. (one-handed crossbows....)

oh wait....

TexPatriot · Oct 29, 2024

Aftermath said:
Here is where I am at on all of this...
Protect the envelope. Harden all entry points.
If "they" get inside, they should be targets of opportunity, fish in a barrel.
Figure out defensive positions with the points of entry in mind. Solid core doors, big planters with real dirt in them...
Make an actual panic room out of your safe room.
Shooting through the floors would never be my concern.

Tannerite filled yard art.

Huskydriver · Oct 29, 2024

Fixed fortifications are a testament to the stupidity of mankind...

Where's those tunnels at yo

TexPatriot · Oct 29, 2024

Sean the Nailer said:
Pre-WWII, the germans came up with a method of reinforcing their concrete. They did so, with the bunkers and sub-pens and such that they built. They also shared the recipe with the japanese forces, whom used said recipe on their bunkers and whatnot on the islands.

There are many concrete fortifications that still stand, to this day.

Might want to do a bit of research into what these recipes are. I seem to remember that 'soda ash' made a very big difference.

Now, as for 'bow kills'... it is very inconvenient for me to use a bow, considering one hand is always on the cane. The world is a safer place, and crime is all-but-forgotten since the LIEberals banned tridents and their ilk, up here. A few decades ago. (one-handed crossbows....)

oh wait....

One of the most effective weapons Marines used besides satchel charges and grenades, was the flame thrower, which literally sucked the air of the reinforced Jap pill boxes.

Sean the Nailer · Oct 29, 2024

TexPatriot said:
One of the most effective ways Marines took out those reinforced Jap bunkers, besides satchel charges and grenades, was the flame thrower, which literally sucked the air of those pill boxes.

I am a VERY big fan of the flamethrower. One of my grandfather's carried one for a while during the war. He hated it.

dustingaunder · Oct 29, 2024

Just make it out of 1/2” AR500.

MO Fugga · Oct 29, 2024

TexPatriot said:
Tannerite filled yard art.

07b8f6e8a606aa4bb83ebccd4d305dd4960d105c7abafb0cd67579f286d9457a_1.jpg

Earnhardt · Oct 29, 2024

They make ICF forms for flat style roofs/floors, and for vaulted ceilngs.

TexPatriot · Oct 29, 2024

Sean the Nailer said:
I am a VERY big fan of the flamethrower. One of my grandfather's carried one for a while during the war. He hated it.

They were high value targets.

Marines put on a demonstration of an assault on a bunker on Memorial Day in Fredricksburg, TX . You could feel the heat fifty feet away and they had to wait to allow air to return before entering.

JoeZ · Oct 29, 2024

A high performing concrete using mid-range water reducing products will create a hardened (5000psi) barrier but that needs to be held together, reinforced. I'd use a healthy dose of Forta Fiber in it. When we remove concrete, that stuff is the most difficult.

LuckyLuke80 · Oct 29, 2024

Jigstick said:
Wait….so 556 can penetrate 8in of non reinforced concrete?

I doubt it. At least not the concrete I produce.

LuckyLuke80 · Oct 29, 2024

c1steve said:
I would like to build a composite metal deck in a new ICF house. The steel deck will be supported by Watkins hangers and steel joists, which are very strong. However I would like to keep the weight of the concrete to a moderate level, so I am investigating admixtures to improve bullet resistance to pistol rounds, .223, and 7.62x39 ammo.

Normally 8" of concrete is needed, I am hoping to have good bullet resistance in 4" or less. Any recommendations? The house is in a very nice neighborhood, I am mostly thinking of a "what if" situation and trying to be prepared.

If you’re using a steel decking and pouring concrete on top of it I would guess 4 inches of concrete would be good. Especially if you did water reducer and got a good 4,000 psi minimum. I would suggest a wire mesh instead of rebar for reinforcement since it’s much lighter and actually provides better strength. Another option of reinforcement is fiberglass rebar which is also stronger than steel bar and is a fraction of the weight. The reinforcement isn’t going to do anything to help with stopping bullets unless you put it on 1/2” centers as someone else suggested. Maybe consider laying Kevlar or dynema on top of the concrete and put your flooring over it?

chevy_man · Oct 30, 2024

They make ballistic paneling. It's a bitch to cut, heavy as hell, and expensive.

So far the only times I've had to deal with it were federal buildings. Your local border station may have .50 cal proof walls...

Makinchips208 · Oct 30, 2024

~~UHPC~~
UHPFRC

Sean the Nailer · Oct 30, 2024

I can't believe this thread has gotten this far, without anyone yet mentioning "reactive armour". I mean, it's only logical to encourage the progression of things....

norcalAF · Oct 30, 2024

My question is: who is exactly do you think you are in the grand scheme of things, and does anyone else share the same thoughts?

sirhrmechanic · Oct 30, 2024

I mean… you never know! Then again the tunnel was more useful!!!

Sirhr

Makinchips208 · Oct 30, 2024

Enjoy

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-5309/11/2/63

Images from the article

Numb_Skull · Oct 30, 2024

If you don’t have a company of Lance Corporals manning your perimeter in forfeited positions with belt feds and night vision what the fuck is the point? Some tires and diesel fuel will turn your concrete box into a brick oven.

I can think of much better ways to die than being turned into a human garlic knot.

Charlie112 · Oct 30, 2024

We manufactured a few different types of Portland Cement,, type 1,2, 3, 4, dura plastic, and a few more , and these answers are spot on,, concrete is produced in a few different recipes and strengths,, basically, the finer you grind your “clinker”, ( clinker is what is produced in a cement kiln)and the additives added to the mill when grinding clinker , determine your strength, the standards used in the laboratory to test cement before it is shipped out are the same in every plant, at least here in the Midwest. If it fails strength test in the laboratory,, it is slowly blended with spec cement and then shipped out to the field for all the fun and games to begin…..so , yes , you can purchase a hi strength cement,, but you would need add the materials mentioned above to get the performance you are looking for….sorry for the long reply,,, but after 40 years producing Portland Cement, and 10 years of that time testing cement in the lab, you soak up a little knowledge…..Charlie112

Eostech · Oct 30, 2024

Post 18, scammer or ai?

Fig · Oct 30, 2024

Atomic_Lobster said:
I have my bow set to 60 pounds
That's what I bench easily
I think I have at least 0 bow kills
Do I get to see the secrets

I killed one bow when I was about ten. String jumped the plastic cam and deformed/broke it. It was a cheap JC Penny compound. Though, dry firing a modern compound usually kills them DRT.

Fig · Oct 30, 2024

Charlie112 said:
We manufactured a few different types of Portland Cement,, type 1,2, 3, 4, dura plastic, and a few more , and these answers are spot on,, concrete is produced in a few different recipes and strengths,, basically, the finer you grind your “clinker”, ( clinker is what is produced in a cement kiln)and the additives added to the mill when grinding clinker , determine your strength, the standards used in the laboratory to test cement before it is shipped out are the same in every plant, at least here in the Midwest. If it fails strength test in the laboratory,, it is slowly blended with spec cement and then shipped out to the field for all the fun and games to begin…..so , yes , you can purchase a hi strength cement,, but you would need add the materials mentioned above to get the performance you are looking for….sorry for the long reply,,, but after 40 years producing Portland Cement, and 10 years of that time testing cement in the lab, you soak up a little knowledge…..Charlie112

So why are the Roman Aqueducts standing 2000 years later, and the parking garage at my office, that’s about 30 years old, is falling apart? What was their secret for such tough concrete?

hlee · Oct 30, 2024

Fig said:
So why are the Roman Aqueducts standing 2000 years later, and the parking garage at my office, that’s about 30 years old, is falling apart? What was their secret for such tough concrete?

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What cement admixtures would help bullet resistance?

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