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Shot Show 2025 Rumours
- Thread starter beetroot
- Start date
I love Browning, but they are ran by some social media idiot, I haven't used a Browning shotgun since I retired my Mag 12 Stalker. I rock a cheap 28ga Tristar Viper G2 Bronze.
Franchi can make the AL48 in 28ga, how hard would it be to use 125yo technology?
Probably unlikely with Benelli, but pray to every god you can think of that you never have to deal with the shit show that is Beretta CS/Warranty
Agreed, Kestrel started as a company making scientific products that could be and were calibrated for field use measurements. Most were probably used (and priced for) government or gov funded efforts. In the mid 90's when they came out they were the only game in town and cutting edge. Still great today, but as much as people raged about LabRadar not innovating their product in the first 5 years.....the Kestrel really hasn't advanced (aside ballistic software) in function, quality of display, etc. much since the 4000 model came out almost 25 years ago. kestrel (and really Garmin and many companies) have been knee capping features to create artificial product tiers for decades. Now of course most of the rage with Labradar was because the product software didn't work well, but you can hardly say Kestrel has innovated their handheld weather meter in 20+ years.
That said, it's hard to complain about pricing in a hobby where people are lining up to spend spend $2000 for a tripod setup, $1000 for bipods, $800 for scope mounts, $400 for a canvas gun bag, $400 for steel chassis weighs, $250 for muzzle brakes, $200 for a canvas shooting bag.....the list goes on.
Companies like Kestrel and Sig with their sub $1000 products, must wake up in the morning and see things like that and come to the realization that their products are clearly underpriced. I can just see Sig's meetings "WTF are we doing, we're making a binocular with a 6000yd RF built in for $800 with ballistics, temp, humidity, and pressure sensors built in, that talks to our scopes and other devices and these guys are spending $1000 for a bipod!"
Last year they announced a mil/mil version of the H6Xi 2-12. They didn’t actually put it on the streets until about August and with a repackaged reticle that doesn’t really fit a 2-12x. Now those scopes are marked down 25-30% everywhere. So let’s hope they’ve gone back to the drawing board on how to understand what your new product is intended to solve and how to execute that design. (Maybe take a page from PSA and actually ask your customers)
Okay so I’m now convinced the only thing my $700 kestrel does the app doesn’t is receive Bluetooth, and read wind (which I don’t use because wind at shooter has no bearing on wind down range).
Can you set a compass heading in the app? Not that you need Coriolis until 1200 plus.
Can you set a compass heading in the app? Not that you need Coriolis until 1200 plus.
Why would they? There's nothing novel about the Henderson trimmer. Henderson uses Forster parts and off the shelf sourced motors.
Athlon's 2-12 did this to the Bushnell LRTSi 3-12. And you see tons of 2-12s these days. At least I do. For hunting big game where I hunt, the 2-12 is a great solution. At less than 2/3 the cost of a LRTSi.
If this turns out to work well Garmin just got Garmin'd!Won't know till lots of them get out into the wild, but at prices with codes etc. that will probably approach $300, they are going to sell truckloads of these unless they are junk. Garmin is a super solid company, and that is worth something, but there's probably a lot of the hunting crowd or weekend dabblers that will spend $350 on a chrono but not $600.
It does have some nice features, perhaps more intuitive buttons, easy removal of a bad shot, ability to adjust the display screen data (something Garmin is normally really good at offering), better rating (IP67 vs IPX7) and for those that own athlon scopes the ability to put the data strait from the device into the ballistic rifle profiles for your setup, and get holdovers/ranges for their reticles, BDC etc. The buttons on the side I'm not sold on, when it's on a small light tripod pressing them could require two hands to keep the unit steady.
I do wish they'd both drop the negative display though, some idiot 15 years ago thought it was tacticool and it keeps hanging around. In almost every light condition it's easier to see a normal display compared to a negative display and all it does is force users to use the backlight in more conditions draining battery faster.
One area Garmin has always sucked for 30+ years is how they export and handle data outside the units from cycling to handheld GPS. I've read a lot of complaints on guys working with getting data out of the chrono as well. However, let's be honest, basically data handling in all of the chronos have sucked for years, so it's a pretty low bar. There's a lot of room for growth in the app with the Garmin for a Gen 2. It would be nice if they added the option to have rifle/bullet profiles where you could easily tag chrono sessions to a rifle/bullet profile, the ability to automatically add weather conditions, location etc. from the phone. Even the ability to track photos of groups etc. that would just merge a lot of what people want to track in a shooting session, and of course ballistic integration that automatically used the Chrono info.
That said it sure looks a LOT like the Garmin for a product that's been out less than 2 years, but that's not too surprising there's only so many ways to make these little products. We more quickly see similar looking products pop up after something makes a market splash these days, probably because it's so much faster/easier to bring a new product to market in 2025 as it was even 10 years ago. Also the shooting community and people as a whole just care less about such things these days. Just look at the Leofoto fiasco and now they are positively supported here and are the official Tripod sponsor of PRS!
No details but saw this on the IG.
They weren't the only one with a 3D printed action.
Anybody that went by the Huxwrx booth would have seen this rifle.
I agree. However, the real issue is that 6.5 creedmoor shooters can’t check their grindr accounts from the field on their kestrel. Therefore they would rather have the capabilities of the Kestrel on their phones so that they can check their grindr accounts.
Meet the SIG MGO and WARP System -- SHOT Show 2025
At the 2025 SIG SAUER SHOT Show Range Day, SIG unveiled a revolutionary pair of optics and rangefinding technology: the MGO (Machine Gun Optic) and WARP (Weapon Attached Ranging Platform).
www.gunsamerica.com
So the chassis is almost ready for the public?
I think it would be more concerning if we didn’t care. I like the Sentinel a lot the more I mess with.
If you don't smash your shit....
Kestrel should be $300. They haven't given us anything but price increases in 20 years.
So what does a Kestrel do that my app can't and me already knowing that yep, it's windy.
I had the same question. Well similar.. My phone isn't capable of measuring environmentals. But I don't see why you would spend so much more on the higher end kestrels.
Ballistics App + Weather Meter VS Kestrel with Ballistics Solver?
Help me understand why anyone would spend the extra money ($450 and up) on a Kestrel with a built in ballistics solver when you can buy a basic weather meter for $100 (like the WeatherFlow) and pair it to a ballistics app like Geoballistics, 4DOF or AB? No hate or anything, I legitimately want...
www.snipershide.com
When there is a tight time limit in your shooting string, people pay for efficiency that saves a few seconds. Also, most cannot organize very well and forget critical parts of the process under pressure. The Kestrel packages it together. Yes, too ridiculously expensive, but until AB dies it own weather meter, calculator, chrono/note taker, here we are.I had the same question. Well similar.. My phone isn't capable of measuring environmentals. But I don't see why you would spend so much more on the higher end kestrels.
Ballistics App + Weather Meter VS Kestrel with Ballistics Solver?
Help me understand why anyone would spend the extra money ($450 and up) on a Kestrel with a built in ballistics solver when you can buy a basic weather meter for $100 (like the WeatherFlow) and pair it to a ballistics app like Geoballistics, 4DOF or AB? No hate or anything, I legitimately want...
Most LRF have enviro. That negates the entire enviro benefit of the kestrel. My phone can also use gps from the phone local weather to fill in enviro (see AB quantum)
My iphone will give a kestrel a good run for it's money on durability outside baking in the sun.
(For what it's worth I also own a kestrel, and at one time a HUD)
My iphone will give a kestrel a good run for it's money on durability outside baking in the sun.
(For what it's worth I also own a kestrel, and at one time a HUD)
I think the original intent was to be able to use the Kestrel without a phone, either so you don't carry both or when there is no service. I totally agree that the cost of the kestrel is insane in this day and age with the technology that is out there now. They haven't really given us anything to account for the price other than, "This is what it has always been" and while the integration with AB is nice, as you said the LRF does most of the same stuff. The only thing a LRF doesn't do is wind speed, which you still have to know how to read down range anyway, and there are far cheaper options for a purely wind speed meter.
If a person:
Then maybe a smartphone app with or without a secondary device (kestrel drop, weatherflow, rangefinder with environmentals, etc,) is a better choice for that person.
Personally I started with a phone + weatherflow meter and after a few years decided to purchase a kestrel. I still have several ballistic apps on my phone, but I've come to prefer the kestrel for most of the shooting that I do. It's always in my kit, it'll run for 6 months or longer on a single AA battery, and it always works, even if I'm somewhere without a cell signal or wifi (or just feel like turning the phone off and leaving it in the truck for the day).
Doesn't believe that measuring wind speed or direction relative to target at the shooter is important
Sees no value in having atmospheric sensors integrated into the device he's using as a ballistic calculator (is fine either relying on a second device via bluetooth or using the internet to estimate enviros)
And if using the internet always shoots where he always has access to a cellular or wifi connection
Feels that a phone case provides adequate water and shock protection for the device he's chosen to use
Is always able to easily recharge his phone/tablet when the battery is low
Sees no value in features like those provided by Accuracy First (speed drop, quick wind, etc.)
Then maybe a smartphone app with or without a secondary device (kestrel drop, weatherflow, rangefinder with environmentals, etc,) is a better choice for that person.
Personally I started with a phone + weatherflow meter and after a few years decided to purchase a kestrel. I still have several ballistic apps on my phone, but I've come to prefer the kestrel for most of the shooting that I do. It's always in my kit, it'll run for 6 months or longer on a single AA battery, and it always works, even if I'm somewhere without a cell signal or wifi (or just feel like turning the phone off and leaving it in the truck for the day).
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I wholeheartedly agree with @Tx_Aggie. The Kestrel works in any weather, at night, and does so reliably. I have many of the ballistic apps on my phone. I seldom ever use my phone. I have trued the Kestrel for my favorite cartridges, and getting the data is easy.
It isn't expensive for all that it does, IMHO.
It isn't expensive for all that it does, IMHO.
The thing about using binos, watches, and WMLRF for environmentals is it’s hard to cool them down or to decouple them from your body heat/sweat. With a Kestrel you can spin it.
They are overpriced, though. Should be $500 tops, I think.
So I bought a Kestrel 3500 for $200 and use Strelok to do my ballistics, which I write on a dope card that’s attached to my rifle.
I true my ballistics by shooting, and use the GunMPH system for quicker wind holds.
Btw I’m not a competitor and am low speed/infinite drag, so not sure how much better or easier it is to use AB, but there you have it.
They are overpriced, though. Should be $500 tops, I think.
So I bought a Kestrel 3500 for $200 and use Strelok to do my ballistics, which I write on a dope card that’s attached to my rifle.
I true my ballistics by shooting, and use the GunMPH system for quicker wind holds.
Btw I’m not a competitor and am low speed/infinite drag, so not sure how much better or easier it is to use AB, but there you have it.
One thing I am interested in that I saw was the Real Avid driver and possibly torque limiter setups.
It seems like a much nicer more versatile T handle than Fix It Sticks has. It's basically a regular 72 tooth ratchet but can also work with an extension and as a T handle. Probably a bit bigger overall I suppose than the Fix It Sticks T handle, but esp. for bench use it seems like a much more elegant/refined solution. I can definitely see myself replacing my Fix It Sticks handle with this if it's good quality, some of Real Avid's stuff is a bit of a gimmick to me, but some of it works quite well.
They also are going to have fixed limiters and an adjustable limiter. The limiters look larger and certainly heavier, but from what I read they will be much cheaper than the Fix It Stick version. They are also supposed to have a more positive click, and perhaps the extra size (still has a narrow shoulder to get into places) allows for a more robust/accurate torque value. I think the 10 limiter kit was supposed to be around $150, which is vastly cheaper than Fix It Sticks at $40 a pop. That said they are big enough I would not want a bunch of them in a range pack.
The adjustable limiter looks interesting, basically you can set the torque you want on the limiter to any value in 1in/lb increments from 15-65 in/lbs. Again larger and heavier than the Fix It Stick variable limiter, but this one allows you to set the torque you want, instead of just trying to read a small dial. However the combo of the two fix it stick versions gives you more options under 15 in/lbs, but I like the idea of only having to keep track of 1 limiter in a range bag, and at the range it's unlikely I'm going to need under 15in/lbs. If it's more than tightening a scope or action screw at the range, I'm just pulling out another gun and worrying about it when I get home.
It seems like a much nicer more versatile T handle than Fix It Sticks has. It's basically a regular 72 tooth ratchet but can also work with an extension and as a T handle. Probably a bit bigger overall I suppose than the Fix It Sticks T handle, but esp. for bench use it seems like a much more elegant/refined solution. I can definitely see myself replacing my Fix It Sticks handle with this if it's good quality, some of Real Avid's stuff is a bit of a gimmick to me, but some of it works quite well.
They also are going to have fixed limiters and an adjustable limiter. The limiters look larger and certainly heavier, but from what I read they will be much cheaper than the Fix It Stick version. They are also supposed to have a more positive click, and perhaps the extra size (still has a narrow shoulder to get into places) allows for a more robust/accurate torque value. I think the 10 limiter kit was supposed to be around $150, which is vastly cheaper than Fix It Sticks at $40 a pop. That said they are big enough I would not want a bunch of them in a range pack.
The adjustable limiter looks interesting, basically you can set the torque you want on the limiter to any value in 1in/lb increments from 15-65 in/lbs. Again larger and heavier than the Fix It Stick variable limiter, but this one allows you to set the torque you want, instead of just trying to read a small dial. However the combo of the two fix it stick versions gives you more options under 15 in/lbs, but I like the idea of only having to keep track of 1 limiter in a range bag, and at the range it's unlikely I'm going to need under 15in/lbs. If it's more than tightening a scope or action screw at the range, I'm just pulling out another gun and worrying about it when I get home.
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