1 mile plus- .338LM vs 30 cal magnums

[m1ajunkie]

Reading through multiple threads online it seems many people suggest going with a 338 size magnum for consistent shooting at 1 mile plus. Running numbers through my shooter app, it appears a 30 cal magnum pushing a 230 atip, or 250 atip will be a better long range performer compared to a 338LM pushing say a 300gr berger.

I'm looking at a 230 atip running 2925 fps (300 prc) and a 300 gr berger hybrid running 2725 fps (338LM- 26" barrel). Out to 2000 yds it appears the 230 atip would retain more velocity, as well as less drop and less wind drift. I've spent the last year running my 300 PRC with success at the 1500-2000yd range but I would like to consistently go further.

Curious why many people point to the 338 as an advantage past say a mile or so when the 30 cal magnums (300 norma would be a step above my prc even) appear to be a better performer when looking at the data?

 

[b2lee]

You will find the 300PRC an excellent cartridge for shooting 2000 yards. I have difficulties being consistent from 2200 to 2500yds and don't shoot past 2500yds. The ONLY reason I would have a 338 action is to put a 33XC barrel on. However, if I'm going to build another rifle for 2500+....I'm personally stepping up to 416. At 2000 yards and in...give me the 300PRC. For 2000 to 2500 and I already had a 338 action...I'd put on a 33XC barrel and use that for shots all the way out to Alabama...and I'm in KY. If I'm going to build a new rifle from the ground up...I'm going 416 for the long pokes.

 

[Dave62677]

I can use 255gr badland 338 pill with mild powder load produces 2950fps. You don’t always have to use 300gr for 338 cal. It is all comes down to personal preference. Badland also have 265gr & 285gr excesses 1.0 G1 BC. 338 should have slightly better barrel life than 30cal magnum.

 

[TxWelder35]

Frank has talked a couple times about 338 and the lighter bullets being better over distance. Speed is better than the BC advantage in the heavies.

 

[Dave62677]

You can see that the new trend for 338 is nothing over 285gr.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Good stuff here guys, thank you for the replies..... looks like maybe I had the wrong bullet weight in mind. I'll check out some of the lighter bullets, appears that's where I need to be looking for some extra long range performance.

 

[Klemm]

Need to push the 300 gr at 2850 or greater to take advantage of the BC

 

[CoryT]

The disadvantage to smaller caliber lighter bullets is the reduction in trace and splash. If you look at the top guys in ELR comps, 375 is about the floor on size, many shooting .416 to .460 instead. Not that it can't be done, but it's easier when you go bigger rather than smaller.

 

[Steel head]

7mm
300
338
All are great at a mile and beyond
My 338 is definitely easier to spot impacts than my 7mm but my 7mm does surprisingly well even at two miles.

If I just had out to a mile or even 2000 yards I never would have bothered building something bigger than my 7mm

 

[Long Range 338]

Need to push the 300 gr at 2850 or greater to take advantage of the BC

True. Personally I think you need 2900 or more with a 300 grain bullet to really make the 338 worth the extra expense in bullets, powder, brass, and rifle components. Also one must consider velocity is one of the major components of BC. So are you really getting the advertised BC in factory loads that are 2700 fps or lower?

The disadvantage to smaller caliber lighter bullets is the reduction in trace and splash. If you look at the top guys in ELR comps, 375 is about the floor on size, many shooting .416 to .460 instead. Not that it can't be done, but it's easier when you go bigger rather than smaller.

^^ This. Without feedback you just end up throwing lead indiscriminately. The smaller calibers definitely have a disadvantage in this aspect.

I can't tell you how many times I have started an internet argument with an innocent comment about the 338 LM not being the optimal cartridge for shooting a mile with factory ammo. You have to consider the cartridges limitations in a factory configuration. Take the same cartridge with a hand loaded cartridge and 30" barrel, its a whole different ball game.

The 300 NM, 300 PRC, and 300 WM are better suited in a factory configuration with factory ammo to get to a mile and beyond. 300 NM with Hornady ammo pushes 225 gr ELDMs at an honest 2950, the 300 PRC pushes the same bullets to about 2850, and the 300 WM with a 215 gr bullet is still a contender. Shootability also enters the equation at some point.

You can make either work with the right system components.

 

[1moaoff]

When you ask 1 mile plus that's very open ended. Your better off asking max range or middle range

 

[912173]

This is why I don't understand the "disadvantage" of the 300 Norma needing a Lapua sized action if starting from scratch. It's the baby cartridge for that action and if you decide you want more in the future, all it takes is a barrel change. The prc/win mag stuff, for all of it's good points, is running out of room in it's platform. It's kind of like a 396 big block Chevy vs a 400 small block. I don't hear about a whole lot of guys shooting elr for a while and say "okay that's enough of that, now for something smaller" lol. However, just like with engines, performance costs and how much do you want?

 

[Dogtown]

Speed is better than the BC advantage in the heavies.

.338LM has always kicked .300WM past a mile, but the .300NM and .300PRC are now better choices (in my opinion) given the velocity gain. I’m at the point now where I do most of my ELR shooting with a .300NM inside of 2000 meters. Beyond that I go with a .338LM Improved 40 with a 36” barrel; it slings 300gr bullets at 3100fps.

 

[Chickentoast]

^Agree, it would take a 33LM Imp or 33XC + solids to get me into 338.

 

[Taylorbok]

True. Personally I think you need 2900 or more with a 300 grain bullet to really make the 338 worth the extra expense in bullets, powder, brass, and rifle components. Also one must consider velocity is one of the major components of BC. So are you really getting the advertised BC in factory loads that are 2700 fps or lower?

for me it's 3000fps as a goal, that's where everything seems to really start to shine. But as mentioned the .308 cal bullets just don't splash like a .338

^Agree, it would take a 33LM Imp or 33XC + solids to get me into 338.

I am gonna convert my 300 Rum to a 338 Edge, hoping to get the 300gr to 3000fps ish with a 32" barrel.

 

[Steel head]

^Agree, it would take a 33LM Imp or 33XC + solids to get me into 338.

13 mils for a mile and supersonic to 2600???

I definitely wasn’t going 338 lapua or Norma and most 300’s because they typically don’t beat the ballistics of my 7 saum.

This puts a bit of a spankin on my 7 saum.

 

[jasent]

I enjoyed my 37xc. Literally my first outing to 2500 I got 3rd round impact and watched every single round all the way to the target. The big bullets do great if you can get them fast enough. Though I won’t be building another 375. 416 minimum for me for the long shots. Under 2500 I’m happy with the 30’s

 

[calshipbuilder]

^Agree, it would take a 33LM Imp or 33XC + solids to get me into 338.

Played the 338AI game, yes more powder fits, but you just end up trashing brass to get a meaningful gain. I’d either go 33xc or get a long barrel for a standard 338lapua with a long throat.

 

[Dogtown]

Fireforming and trashing brass felt like a real waste after a while, but then I ponied up for some RCC brass made to my chamber specs. No more fireforming, lasts longer, and is even a bit more consistent. Also, there’s no point going the .338 LM Improved route without a barrel that’s longer than 30”

 

[Chickentoast]

View attachment 7748319
13 mils for a mile and supersonic to 2600???

I definitely wasn’t going 338 lapua or Norma and most 300’s because they typically don’t beat the ballistics of my 7 saum.

This puts a bit of a spankin on my 7 saum.

I've got the same ballistics with my 30" 300 RUM and 250 a-tips. Figured juice wasn't worth the squeeze to go up to 338 in that case - at least staying with jacketed projectiles. Benefits over a short, fat with 65 grains are limited under 1500, where I'm playing most often, but it sure is nice to hear steel sing back at you from a mile+ when hit with good energy.

 

[Steel head]

I've got the same ballistics with my 30" 300 RUM and 250 a-tips. Figured juice wasn't worth the squeeze to go up to 338 in that case - at least staying with jacketed projectiles. Benefits over a short, fat with 65 grains are limited under 1500, where I'm playing most often, but it sure is nice to hear steel sing back at you from a mile+ when hit with good energy.

Yea, 300 RUM is definitely a serious contender

 

[W54/XM-388]

.300NM is the easy button for 1 mile shooting.
Get some good factory ammo and you'll have no problem with 1 mile accurate shots with rounds that will feed from a magazine.

.338LM is also a good choice, but you have to be a bit more picky on the ammo, most standard ball match 250gr stuff isn't really the greatest for a mile and a lot of the 300gr stuff just isn't quite right. You'll probably want some match or solids in the 265gr to 285gr range and then you'll do good.
If you custom load some decent badlands solids and don't care about magazine length limitations (so you single feed), 2500 yards is not a problem and you can push a bit further.

.338LM is a great platform but it's limited by magazine length. If you go single feed and run some of the high BC solids or standard stuff you can get really good accurate distance. It's going to be a bit more work however than just grabbing the .300NM easy button

The good news is that pretty much most .338LM rifles can go .300NM with a barrel change and the same is true for most .300NM rifles going to .338LM

An idea would be to look around for an Accuracy International AX Pre 2014 .338LM (since those are usually cheaper than the post 2014) and just get a .300NM barrel and get to work having lots of fun.

 

[Dogtown]

The magazines in the Desert Tech SRS are long enough to allow long solids in many cases. For example, these are 212gr solids in .300NM @ 3.91" COAL

 

[Dave62677]

The 338nm solid might able fit the mag. After I burn my 338lm bbl, I went with 338nm.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have seen at a SoCal ELR match the 300PRC perform as well or better then a 338lm in very light wind. If the wind does come up the .338lm does handle the wind better then the 300PRC.
Sounds like no reason to change from your 300PRC.

 

[Steel head]

The 338nm solid might able fit the mag. After I burn my 338lm bbl, I went with 338nm.

If you stuff a 265 badlands pretty deep into the 338NM it’s about 3.75 and has a mile of jump with the standard 338NM freebore

 

[b2lee]

When you are shooting 1 mile plus...why you guys trying to stuff the rounds into a magazine? This is single feed time. You have time to extract...load new round without taking eyes off glass...chambering and making your own corrections. Or maybe I'm different...I only have about 5,000 rounds at targets 1 mile and beyond....and yes..I still suck.

 

[Dogtown]

Because my brain is still stuck in the Army's tactical mindset.

But yes, I single feed mostly anyway; it's just interesting to me when even a long cartridge combo ends up fitting my mags.

 

[Steel head]

When you are shooting 1 mile plus...why you guys trying to stuff the rounds into a magazine? This is single feed time. You have time to extract...load new round without taking eyes off glass...chambering and making your own corrections. Or maybe I'm different...I only have about 5,000 rounds at targets 1 mile and beyond....and yes..I still suck.

 

[jasent]

What’s this magazine thing you guys are talking about? Something like this??

 

[babyguppy]

Frank has talked a couple times about 338 and the lighter bullets being better over distance. Speed is better than the BC advantage in the heavies.

I believe Frank has stated, if your 300 isn't going over 2850; you'd be better off with a 250 grain.

 

[babyguppy]

Question:
@Dogtown @Steelhead
Has anyone tried 'tipping' their 338 cal 250 grain berger bullets? I'm wondering if tipping the 250 grainers (G7 .351) would add some BC that could match bergers 300 grains OTM G7 BC of (G7 .421). Isn't this what berger did with the 30cal 208 grains? So now the 208's almost match the 30cal 215 grains G7. (if Berger reads this; please start making ENOUGH 215's that we can find them again) I'm tired of hunting Unicorns.

Also - I know some of you have been talking about the cutting edge's 267's (MTAC 338 267 MAX) but, I thought some people were having trouble getting accuracy with the solids? or have I missed a few posts?

 

[Steel head]

Question:
@Dogtown @Steelhead
Has anyone tried 'tipping' their 338 cal 250 grain berger bullets? I'm wondering if tipping the 250 grainers (G7 .351) would add some BC that could match bergers 300 grains OTM G7 BC of (G7 .421). Isn't this what berger did with the 30cal 208 grains? So now the 208's almost match the 30cal 215 grains G7. (if Berger reads this; please start making ENOUGH 215's that we can find them again) I'm tired of hunting Unicorns.

Also - I know some of you have been talking about the cutting edge's 267's (MTAC 338 267 MAX) but, I thought some people were having trouble getting accuracy with the solids? or have I missed a few posts?

Tipping gains are a lot smaller than the difference in BC from the 250 to the 300.

I shoot the tipped 190 Berger and really what tipping brings is more BC consistency bullet to bullet.

I’m curious if Berger will release a LRHT version of the 338.
Especially in 280ish grains.

I shoot mostly 265 and 285 badlands in my 338.

 

[b2lee]

Question:
@Dogtown @Steelhead
Has anyone tried 'tipping' their 338 cal 250 grain berger bullets? I'm wondering if tipping the 250 grainers (G7 .351) would add some BC that could match bergers 300 grains OTM G7 BC of (G7 .421). Isn't this what berger did with the 30cal 208 grains? So now the 208's almost match the 30cal 215 grains G7. (if Berger reads this; please start making ENOUGH 215's that we can find them again) I'm tired of hunting Unicorns.

Also - I know some of you have been talking about the cutting edge's 267's (MTAC 338 267 MAX) but, I thought some people were having trouble getting accuracy with the solids? or have I missed a few posts?

I believe the best case scenario for tipping the 250 grainers would be a G7 of .372... Still far off from the .421 of the 300gr....but BC isn't everything....consistency is. Tipping brings another point of failure to the process. If you push the meplat back on one and cause that micro-wrinkle in the Ogive....and get an inconsistent profile...thus an inconsistent BC....you are going to fail.

You can't actually see this error...you can't run a finger nail across it and find it....you might could look under a magnifying glass and see it. However...if you tip and you suddenly find your vertical all over the place...this is probably the cause.

 

[ShootnFool8]

I know Frank says 250 gr. But if you hear the podcast with Berger bullets guy. Don't remember his name. He said 338 can stabilize the 300 gr. I shoot 300 gr. Don't see an issue. Also, if shooting past a mile. What you would want. 250 gr not so good at that distance. Just my opinion. Keep shooting!

 

[W54/XM-388]

Also - I know some of you have been talking about the cutting edge's 267's (MTAC 338 267 MAX) but, I thought some people were having trouble getting accuracy with the solids? or have I missed a few posts?

One of the biggest issues with solids (apart from magazine length) is you have to make sure your barrel twist rate is fast enough for them, or you'll get bad results.
Most of the makers list a minimum barrel twist, so for example if you have the older standard 1:10 twist on your .338, you might be limited to stuff in the 255gr range, but if you have a faster say 1:9 twist or 1:8 or such, you could move up to the much nicer 285gr stuff

Solids want to be driven fast and spun fast. You need to do both for good results.

 

[Steel head]

I know Frank says 250 gr. But if you hear the podcast with Berger bullets guy. Don't remember his name. He said 338 can stabilize the 300 gr. I shoot 300 gr. Don't see an issue. Also, if shooting past a mile. What you would want. 250 gr not so good at that distance. Just my opinion. Keep shooting!

It not a stabilization issue Frank is talking about, more that for the average 338lapua or Norma user shooting maybe a mile or 2000 yards the 250’s give better ballistics.
Shoot them far enough and the 300’s probably start making more sense.


Similar situation to my 260, when it was my do it all from 100 to 1800ish cartridge I ran 140 or 147’s because the heavies did better at distance and decent at middle distances.
Now that it’s in a 100-1300 role it’s 130’s all day.

 

[Long Range 338]

I know Frank says 250 gr. But if you hear the podcast with Berger bullets guy. Don't remember his name. He said 338 can stabilize the 300 gr. I shoot 300 gr. Don't see an issue. Also, if shooting past a mile. What you would want. 250 gr not so good at that distance. Just my opinion. Keep shooting!

Frank is addressing a mindset that the higher bc bullet is always better. Velocity is a major component of the BC calculation. The 300s are better IF you can push them fast enough to take advantage

 

[ShootnFool8]

Frank is addressing a mindset that the higher bc bullet is always better. Velocity is a major component of the BC calculation. The 300s are better IF you can push them fast enough to take advantage

Totally understand that! Just going off of the title that started this, is all. 300 gr bullet for me at a mile plus. Just my opinion.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Lots of great info in this thread, I appreciate the replies! I ended up buying a 338LM MRAD (that's what I could find available) with plans to convert to 300PRC or 300NM next year. That said though, I want to play with 338LM while I've got it, my goal would be to spend time using the 338LM in the 1 mile- 2500yd area on my 30" circle target.

Reading through here it doesn't sound like I'll have the velocity to really capitalize on the 300grs but I do want to shoot enough to get a load and try them out at distance. I'll also plan to work on a lighter bullet load to get more velocity and see how it compares. I've got an 8lb jug of 7977 powder sitting around I plan to use for this project so surely I can come up with some kind of solid ELR load fairly quickly!

 

[Dave62677]

Good luck to your journey which will never end

 

[Steel head]

Lots of great info in this thread, I appreciate the replies! I ended up buying a 338LM MRAD (that's what I could find available) with plans to convert to 300PRC or 300NM next year. That said though, I want to play with 338LM while I've got it, my goal would be to spend time using the 338LM in the 1 mile- 2500yd area on my 30" circle target.

Reading through here it doesn't sound like I'll have the velocity to really capitalize on the 300grs but I do want to shoot enough to get a load and try them out at distance. I'll also plan to work on a lighter bullet load to get more velocity and see how it compares. I've got an 8lb jug of 7977 powder sitting around I plan to use for this project so surely I can come up with some kind of solid ELR load fairly quickly!

I’ve shot a 20” 338 NM with 300’s quite a bit from a mile to 2500 yards and it always did pretty well.
Not the most bling but plenty to get there without much issue.

 

[Taylorbok]

Lots of great info in this thread, I appreciate the replies! I ended up buying a 338LM MRAD (that's what I could find available) with plans to convert to 300PRC or 300NM next year. That said though, I want to play with 338LM while I've got it, my goal would be to spend time using the 338LM in the 1 mile- 2500yd area on my 30" circle target.

Reading through here it doesn't sound like I'll have the velocity to really capitalize on the 300grs but I do want to shoot enough to get a load and try them out at distance. I'll also plan to work on a lighter bullet load to get more velocity and see how it compares. I've got an 8lb jug of 7977 powder sitting around I plan to use for this project so surely I can come up with some kind of solid ELR load fairly quickly!

IMO the splash from a 338 is worth the price of addmission. I'm shooting a 300 RUM and plan to convert over to 338 edge. 32" barrel I'm hoping to get 300gr bullets going 2950-3000. If I was you I'd look into an improved reamer and stick with the 338. plus youd have to bushing your bolt to go down to a 30 cal

 

[kthomas]

Lots of great choices, but I would push .300NM or .300NMI.

Very capable cartridge, and with a Lapua Mag bolt face you have the option to move up into the XC cartridges if you want more steam. Starting with a .300WM or .300PRC you are at the proverbial ceiling of that actions performance.

Lots of great projectile options in .30 cal, from standard jacketed projectiles to lathe turned solids. The .30 cals are also a lot more pleasant to shoot then the .33+ cals. There's a considerable step up in recoil once you go to the .33 and bigger calibers.

 

[wildcats]

Lots of great choices, but I would push .300NM or .300NMI.

Very capable cartridge, and with a Lapua Mag bolt face you have the option to move up into the XC cartridges if you want more steam. Starting with a .300WM or .300PRC you are at the proverbial ceiling of that actions performance.

Lots of great projectile options in .30 cal, from standard jacketed projectiles to lathe turned solids. The .30 cals are also a lot more pleasant to shoot then the .33+ cals. There's a considerable step up in recoil once you go to the .33 and bigger calibers.

Not to mention the 300 RUM wich is a very capable cartridge beyond the 300 wm and 300 prc,and can compete with the 300 nm

 

[kthomas]

Not to mention the 300 RUM

I always forget about the RUM...

 

[wildcats]

I always forget about the RUM...

It's making a comeback now that good brass is avail.

 

[Steel head]

It's making a comeback now that good brass is avail.

I have a reamer and am considering cutting a barrel for it now that ADG brass is available for it.

 

[Taylorbok]

I have a reamer and am considering cutting a barrel for it now that ADG brass is available for it.

I've got a barrel I'll screw off and sell you so I can go to 338 edge

 

[wildcats]

I have a reamer and am considering cutting a barrel for it now that ADG brass is available for it.

Had a couple in the past and shot very well,but they we're 10 twist.thinking of building another one with a 8.5 twist 30-32 barrel to shoot 250 A-tips and heavy monolithics