1st rifle, 2k budget, build or buy?

[patriot07]

If possible, i would like to work up to shoot a mile with this particular rifle. what I don't want to see happen is spend time and money on a rifle reloading and accessories only to fall short of my goal and have to invest in a whole other rifle and caliber to reach it.

This is my 1000yd+ rifle

You all have totally sold me on Tikka, in fact I might get the 6.5 down the road.

Would you consider a used never fired Rem 700 5R in 300 win mag with timey trigger for $750 a more reasonable option that I could upgrade as desired?

I personally wouldn't buy a modern remington rifle. Need too much work to be accurate as a Tikka is out of the box. At that point, you should have just bought the Tikka.

As for the caliber, I totally get what you're saying, but it's an absolute physical beating and a small fortune to shoot most of the 1-mile calibers, compared to a 6.5. It's not the most popular long-range caliber for no reason.

Yes, you can potentially get to a mile with the 6.5, but you have to hot rod it a ton to do so. And anytime you start pushing the limits of a caliber, you're going to run into barriers that most shooters of that caliber don't experience.

Finally, when you say 1000+, that's different than saying a mile. Like I said, a normal 6.5 will get you to 1300-1400 pretty easily. To get to a mile is a different game.

One other option that would be still affordable to shoot and easy recoil-wise is a 7-08 AI. Maybe the best ballistic short action caliber around in terms of performance for the money/recoil. It will outperform the 6.5 at long ranges.

But if you're really set on a mile with this gun, then most of the advice here may be moot. We're trying to steer you to something to learn on and then upgrade to 300/338/etc. down the road, because that's the most logical, affordable path. If you really want to be able to shoot a mile for certain with this gun, then there's no way I'd buy a 6.5, and the calibers you're going to may well push you into other actions. Be ready to pay for the choice in recoil and ammo cost though, because it's a huge jump from the 6.5.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Every Friday I shoot a 6cm and a 260 rem 1250yards and if the wind isnt up its as easy as shooting a target at 100 yards my 8 year old girl has hit targets at 1200 with the 6cm.... I use half the powder of a 300wm


300wm is an expensive beast to feed and overkill for targets.

 

[patriot07]

Every Friday I shoot a 6cm and a 260 rem 1250yards and if the wind isnt up its as easy as shooting a target at 100 yards my 8 year old girl has hit targets at 1200 with the 6cm.... I use half the powder of a 300wm


300wm is an expensive beast to feed and overkill for targets.

I agree - there is a reason the 6 and 6.5 calibers are so popular.

As for your other comments, I may be towards joining your camp. If he's 100% set on shooting a mile with this exact gun, then a Tikka may not be the ticket.

Personally, I'd buy a CTR, shoot out to 1,400 for awhile with cheap ammo and low recoil, learn what you like and don't like, and then build exactly what you want for the mile+ range down the road. Learning to reload, read wind, etc. with something like a 338LM is just a different type of approach than folks normally take.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Very sound advice @patriot07 I would start with something that wouldnt instill a flinch or a bad habit that was cheaper to shoot and easy to get results with. Then when you want to get into consistent longer ranges switch up barrels and go with one of the short action magnum rounds or look at a long action build and remortgage your house and start the ELR quest.

 

[remmynikon.308]

Remington also puts out that 700 long range, available in .300wm from factory with a bell and carlson m40 stock. i had one priced new at a local gun shop for $750, just throwing it out there...

 

[260284]

"The issue I have is the Tikka down the road is still a Tikka, if you decide to continue down this journey the Tikka will be more difficult to upgrade and certainly more expensive (price a Tikka mag...) and have much more limited options or like most your going to be starting from scratch and selling a Tikka. "

I have 3 Tikkas and only one is a CTR with the "expensive" magazines that I paid $60 and $70 each for my two extra. If you watch the sales and free shipping, you can get them new for $75 or less.
As to upgrading a Tikka being difficult, they use standard threads, and there are several companies making pre-fit barrels, PVA, Solid Accuracy, Southern Precision Rifles, etc. Carbon 6 is making shouldered prefits for Tikkas now.

Tikkas do not have to be trued like some Remingtons, the bolts are really smooth to run (they are not Impact smooth, but you can buy 2 for the price of of an Impact action) and the triggers are great if you like single stage triggers.

I have less than $1400 in the rifle in the X-Ray with 2 AICS mags and the cost of my reamer. (Scope and rings excluded)

My CTR started as a 20" 260 and I made hits to 1400 with it in the factory stock at local club matches.

 

[vergil]

I was in the same situation, bought a Savage last year, 10 fcp 308, shot ok but wanted to improve the accuracy, changed the stock to MDT, adjustable butt stock etc. it was improved but nowhere near like I wanted. Than got a good deal on a Ruger RPR 6 creed 6 months ago. Shoots much better than Savage but was fortunate to try an older guys custom rifle at the range, was an eye opener. Action felt so good and smooth gives you that bolt action satisfaction without any feeding or another issues. Now I am looking to build custom rifle probably with Origin action. If you go with a factory rifle I believe you will always have that urge to build a custom one and will not be happy with the one you already have, don't even try to upgrade the parts over time like I did it is going to cost you same or more money than a custom rifle.

 

[ToddM]

Honestly today I really only see 4 tiers. There's lot's guns priced in between them but I think most are made obsolete by these now.

1) $1200 tops factory guns, CTR/RPR etc. but ONLY if you leave them alone, shoot them out on your learning curve and upgrade.
2) $2k custom guns designed for PRS production, these are by FAR the best value available for anyone that thinks they might get into long range shooting and wants the best constant accuracy for their $. You are WAY less likely to get a lemon with one of these than a big name factory gun.
3) $3-4k Something in a switch barrel. AI-AT, MPA etc.
4) $$$$$ switch barrel in long action for a wider range of caliber choices

It's made a lot of guns obsolete in my opinion, the TRG is one of them, I love mine, but you really don't gain anything for $3000 over these $2k PRS guns, and for the same $ or a bit more you can get something in a switch barrel to change calibers. Any big factory gun over $1200 is another one. I like the Tac A1, but it's $1800, put 10 of them on the line next to 10 of these $2k custom action/barrel/trigger jobs with guys that know how to drive them and I'll bet dollars to donuts they will shoot well but they won't keep up with the custom rigs. For every 1 big name factory gun I've been impressed with accuracy wise, I've had 3 that disappointed me. Now some guys love to hunt used parts/deals to build/upgrade, and some guys love to build sleeper guns, and some guys just want what they want. At the end of the day though when I think about it logically, with value in consistent performance and features for your $ I come back to the above tiers.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

The amount of $2k PRS production rifles that are hitting the scene should make all of these questions really a moot point.

 

[patriot07]

Honestly today I really only see 4 tiers. There's lot's guns priced in between them but I think most are made obsolete by these now.

1) $1200 tops factory guns, CTR/RPR etc. but ONLY if you leave them alone, shoot them out on your learning curve and upgrade.
2) $2k custom guns designed for PRS production, these are by FAR the best value available for anyone that thinks they might get into long range shooting and wants the best constant accuracy for their $. You are WAY less likely to get a lemon with one of these than a big name factory gun.
3) $3-4k Something in a switch barrel. AI-AT, MPA etc.
4) $$$$$ switch barrel in long action for a wider range of caliber choices

It's made a lot of guns obsolete in my opinion, the TRG is one of them, I love mine, but you really don't gain anything for $3000 over these $2k PRS guns, and for the same $ or a bit more you can get something in a switch barrel to change calibers. Any big factory gun over $1200 is another one. I like the Tac A1, but it's $1800, put 10 of them on the line next to 10 of these $2k custom action/barrel/trigger jobs with guys that know how to drive them and I'll bet dollars to donuts they will shoot well but they won't keep up with the custom rigs. For every 1 big name factory gun I've been impressed with accuracy wise, I've had 3 that disappointed me. Now some guys love to hunt used parts/deals to build/upgrade, and some guys love to build sleeper guns, and some guys just want what they want. At the end of the day though when I think about it logically, with value in consistent performance and features for your $ I come back to the above tiers.

I agree with your tiers, but I disagree on the difference between tier 2 and 3. The difference isn't performance - it's configuration. $2k allows you to get a rifle set up exactly how you want. $1,200 is a factory gun with very few options. Most shooters looking for their first long-range rifle can't shoot the difference between the 2 guns. And even if they could, it won't matter for anything other than benchrest. How many posts have we seen of folks with Tikka rifles that wouldn't shoot?

 

[ToddM]

That's fair, I agree the difference between 2-3 is basically functionality (easier barrel changes, second caliber options etc.) not necessarily performance, and sure at any price point if you are looking for a specific option/setup maybe you fall into the middle somewhere because you have to have X feature. If I *have* to have a Cadex Dual Strike folding chassis, well that's $2400 right off the bat.

I also agree that most new rifle shooters cannot take advantage of the accuracy difference between say a $1200 gun that shoots well, and a $2k PRS. However that does NOT stop lots of new shooters from putting $2000 into a RPR, Tikka etc. I still see lots of new shooters with those modified factory rifles that have horrible fundamentals. Many of them never even shot the factory configuration. So if they are going to dump $2k into it anyway, I'd rather see them just get the semi-custom to start.

 

[physguy88]

Nice but Damn, that's already $2,324. And the KRG bravo LA is another $100

I think the key cost driver for you here is the decision to go 300 win mag. That mandates a TL3 vs a Origin and slightly more cost on the other components.

If you go short action instead you could come in just at $2K or lower:

KRG Bravo: $350
Triggertech Special: $185
Magazine: $35-$80
Bighorn Origin: $825
Barrel Nut from Bighorn: $40
Muzzle brake: $150 (eg pva jet blast)
Criterion savage pre-fit: $400 with muzzle threading and cap

That gets you to exactly $2K before tax and shipping. However, LA would mean getting a TL3 for $1250 and sundry other extra costs in the smaller compoments.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I really think if people are looking budget I would go the used/exchange route. This rifle was purchased entirely off the exchange other than the KRG was a local used.

Nucleus $850
TT Diamond $220
KRG $300
Used PVA 6.5cm barrel with less than 100 rounds down per hide member $450
Lambda brake I kept for another build but came on the pva barrel (thats $150 savings to my other rifle build)
Barloc was off another build and I swapped out for a NSS nut before I cashed it out.

I ended up selling the build for $2k since I am left handed and my son preferred a different rifle. This was essentially a John Hancock rifle with a much better trigger and no year long wait, it pretty much shot 1 ragged hole would easily get you 1k yds and was a great rifle. The moral is though if you are patient and know somewhat what you want you can get it at a good deal and most of these used parts are still in pretty much new condition, and when you decide you dont like that tt diamond you can sell it for pretty much what you paid for it (you'll love that tt diamond though cause its the bomb....).

So give up that money upgrade to a sellers account, buy some parts help out fellow hide members and save some damn money.

Normally I dont suggest used barrels but honestly starting out your going to whore around on calibers and wont last long enough on it to shoot it out anyways.

***Edit keep in mind you're gonna need tools if you go this route... go/no go gauges action wrench and barrel vise ....***

 

[patriot07]

I really think if people are looking budget I would go the used/exchange route. This rifle was purchased entirely off the exchange other than the KRG was a local used.

Nucleus $850
TT Diamond $220
KRG $300
Used PVA 6.5cm barrel with less than 100 rounds down per hide member $450
Lambda brake I kept for another build but came on the pva barrel (thats $150 savings to my other rifle build)
Barloc was off another build and I swapped out for a NSS nut before I cashed it out.

I ended up selling the build for $2k since I am left handed and my son preferred a different rifle. This was essentially a John Hancock rifle with a much better trigger and no year long wait, it pretty much shot 1 ragged hole would easily get you 1k yds and was a great rifle. The moral is though if you are patient and know somewhat what you want you can get it at a good deal and most of these used parts are still in pretty much new condition, and when you decide you dont like that tt diamond you can sell it for pretty much what you paid for it (you'll love that tt diamond though cause its the bomb....).

So give up that money upgrade to a sellers account, buy some parts help out fellow hide members and save some damn money.

Normally I dont suggest used barrels but honestly starting out your going to whore around on calibers and wont last long enough on it to shoot it out anyways.

Good post.

Just for all of our sake, what all tools would be required to assemble this?

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Good post.

Just for all of our sake, what all tools would be required to assemble this?

I use a bench vise from harbor freight that was about $25, an action wrench and my barrel vise is two pieces of oak I cut and use in the bench vise.... I need to get another viper barrel vise they are about $70ish and worth every penny. Go and No Go gauges you should own for whatever calibers you intend on shooting and this is just for safeties sake... You could just get shouldered barrels and skip the gauges but I'm a skeptical bastard at heart and use them even on shouldered barrels.

If you use the Northland shooting supplies barrel nut you need a Savage action wrench and those are about $20 on ebay.

An action wrench will be much less than $100 I think I paid $65 for my last one just cause it said Bighorn on it...

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Go/No go gauges can span several calibers also for instance 308 is also good for all of the cartridges based off the 308 case so .243 260 rem 7mm08 etc. Same for the creedmoor's the 6 6.5 and 22 creedmoor all same gauge.

 

[CajunNavy]

I was in your shoes not long ago and decided to try the Tikka T3x Tac A1. It's the best rifle I've ever shot by far and definitley out shoots my ability. No need to worry about upgrades, just mount the scope and go shoot. For ammo, I used Copper Creek starter pack then second since i don't have room for reloading bench at the moment.

 

[oldschoolhdmike]

I was also in this same situation. I almost bought a factory off the shelf tikka. But I kinda like building and not having a belly button. I knew if I spent $1500 plus on the gun, I would change it. Last year I built a 6.5 cm howa barreled action on a mdt chassis. it was a sweet setup for right at $1000. never shot it though but I have heard the howa barreled actions are pretty accurate. In the end I bought a factory savage from buds, tearing it apart and adding parts as I go. I will have way less than $2000 in the rifle. I sold everything but the action from the savage and made almost what I paid for the whole gun originally. So I basically started with a free action with accutrigger.

 

[steve123]

I agree with your tiers, but I disagree on the difference between tier 2 and 3. The difference isn't performance - it's configuration. $2k allows you to get a rifle set up exactly how you want. $1,200 is a factory gun with very few options. Most shooters looking for their first long-range rifle can't shoot the difference between the 2 guns. And even if they could, it won't matter for anything other than benchrest. How many posts have we seen of folks with Tikka rifles that wouldn't shoot?

Ironically a Tikka T3 in 300WM that my friend had would not shoot well, even after replacing the recoil lug with a steel one, and after lots of load work. His sons rifle, a duplicate of, shot fine.

The only Tikka TAC I've shot was super accurate, the most accurate factory rifle I've been around.

But it's much more likely that a rifle with a custom barrel is going to shoot well to begin with. The least accurate custom barrel I had out of 10 or so was a solid .8 moa rifle, which isn't bad. I've had 4-5 factory rifles that were over moa and some were closer to 1.5 moa and that was with good reloads, bedding, etc.

OP, since you intend to shoot ELR as a goal, you might want to plan on a cartridge with more displacement and might as well plan on a long action. That 300PRC cartridge wouldn't be a bad choice. For ELR having a heavier bullet with higher BC goes a long way for success at those distances, you could try Warners 198 Flatlines with .838BC and should be able to get them going 3050 fps, or just shoot 225's, or 230's. If you reload you can load down to 30-06 levels with lighter bullets.

 

[patriot07]

But it's much more likely that a rifle with a custom barrel is going to shoot well to begin with.

This is the only statement I have an issue with. 99% vs 98% (or whatever the miniscule difference is) isn't "much", and I can honestly say I've never heard anyone complain about a CTR not shooting well. Your Tikka one of the few I've ever heard of. Of course we've all heard of customs that don't shoot too. I just don't think there is honestly any difference at all in the likelihood of a Tikka vs a custom being a 1/2 MOA gun with good handloads. You want to go down to 1/4 MOA, and I'll admit that the custom is slightly more likely, but once again, that sort of precision doesn't matter for his 1st long range rig.

I agree with the rest of your post though. Normal factory rifles compared to a semi-custom with a nice barrel are significantly different animals. But Tikka rifles and specifically something like a CTR narrows the gap to almost nothing.

 

[steve123]

This is the only statement I have an issue with. 99% vs 98% (or whatever the miniscule difference is) isn't "much", and I can honestly say I've never heard anyone complain about a CTR not shooting well. Your Tikka one of the few I've ever heard of. Of course we've all heard of customs that don't shoot too. I just don't think there is honestly any difference at all in the likelihood of a Tikka vs a custom being a 1/2 MOA gun with good handloads. You want to go down to 1/4 MOA, and I'll admit that the custom is slightly more likely, but once again, that sort of precision doesn't matter for his 1st long range rig.

I agree with the rest of your post though. Normal factory rifles compared to a semi-custom with a nice barrel are significantly different animals. But Tikka rifles and specifically something like a CTR narrows the gap to almost nothing.

That same friend has a Tikka CTR in 260R right now. It's no 1/2 moa rifle, even with good reloads, 3/4 maybe.

Years ago I was hanging out with a guy who owned a T3 in 6.5x55 and it was the same.

In both cases my custom 6x47L custom back then, and my custom 6mmBR now, both with aftermarket barrels, was/is, more accurate than those Tikka's.

Plus I've read posts here on the Hide over the years of people having Tikka's that didn't shoot good, as well as bolt stops breaking, and other problems.

I would put Tikka in a higher tier in rate of success of accuracy compared to most other factory rifles but at the same time I wouldn't put them at the worship level, that's where we differ in opinion, after all they are production items. And you know from my posts I prefer them.

I'm saying that with any low to mid priced factory rifle you take your chances as to whether you'll get a good one or not. At the same time you stand a much better chance at getting a good shooter with a premium barrel. Actually if a custom won't shoot well it's usually because the GS did a poor job, but there are lower quality aftermarket barrels which can be a problem too. Once in a great while a premium won't shoot well, I guess that's life sometimes.

True, a new shooter may not shoot the difference of a 1/2" vs 3/4" rifle at first but they should be able to halfway through the barrels life.

I bought a slightly used stock CZ527 in 17R about 5 years ago, darn thing was a 1.25 moa rifle. Good thing I had a new spare custom 17 cal barrel already that I got cheap. Once I got the new barrel done it shot .6-.7" groups. Sold it to the friend I mentioned with the Tikka's, he loves it!

Then last year I traded into a CZ527 custom with a Pacnor, and a M700 custom with a Lilija, both in 5mmFBI/20-221 Fireball AI, from the same owner, reamer, custom dies, brass, etc, both with 300-400 rounds through them. Man they shot/shoot good! On Tuesday I finished load development on the CZ, 5 into .3", and the rifle only weighs 8lbs. I almost didn't need to do load development but decided it'd be fun.

That M700 mentioned above I got rebarreled with a Benchmark barrel in 223AI which of course shoots crazy good.

Based on years of experience I want custom barrels vs factory, and I think most discerning rifleman would too, especially if they could choose it from the get-go.

 

[patriot07]

Starting to wonder if the problem is the rifles or your friend, since they're both below expectation? Surely not based on your experience, but that is especially curious.

Lots of good info and points. We just disagree on the performance difference between a Tikka CTR and a semi-custom. I have a few buddies with CTRs. None are 3/4 MOA guns. I also have buddies with semi-custom guns. Most of us see zero difference from a performance standpoint. Biggest difference by far, especially for ELR, is that the factory Tikka barrels are always slow. But once again, that's just not a major factor for someone getting into the game.

But either way, none of these are bad options. I just think the Tikka offers so much value for the money when someone is getting into the game. Spending twice the money on a semi-custom is where the value proposition really starts to bring up question marks to me. For a PRS shooter, that's all peanuts. For a guy buying his first long range rig, it's just a different question IMHO. Good discussion though.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Thanks again for all the great feedback. I think I'm narrowing it down.

Given my incessant need to re-engineer, change, modify, hack, and customize. I'm leaning build.

Q1: with the actions that do caliber changes. Could I build a 6.5cm on a long action leaving open the possibility of going larger caliber down the road or at will?

Q2: Is there a specific nomenclature for these actions and the barrels that go in them? Still trying to wrap my head around what is compatible with what.

I'm thinking I can splurge a little on the action if that's the foundation for hot rodding it later.

 

[Sheldon N]

Q1: with the actions that do caliber changes. Could I build a 6.5cm on a long action leaving open the possibility of going larger caliber down the road or at will?

Q2: Is there a specific nomenclature for these actions and the barrels that go in them? Still trying to wrap my head around what is compatible with what.

If you are trying to build around flexibility and caliber changes, and you want to have this be a rifle that you shoot regularly I would point you toward a short action build.

Generally speaking, while there is a definite advantage to a long action when talking about serious ELR shooting at 1500 yards and beyond, you will find short action calibers much more enjoyable and economical to shoot on a regular basis. And with a magnum bolt face you can build a gun that is very capable out to your ultimate goal of 1 mile. Something like a 7mm SAUM or 7 Sherman Short or 6.5 SAUM or PRC all are 1 mile capable. Particularly a long barreled fast twist 7mm shooting heavy bullets. That is an extremely capable 1 mile setup.

There's not really a nomenclature for these type of actions, because pretty much any action can do it. All you need is the correct bolt or bolt head, then the tools to switch barrels. You can either buy entire bolts for each case size (223, 308, Magnum) or you can get an action that has interchangeable bolt heads. Either one essentially works the same. Actions that have integral lugs will be a bit easier to swap barrels on, but that's not mandatory.

Since you have already been pointed towards a Bighorn Origin or TL3, I'll echo that recommendation. The interchangeable bolt heads are a bit cheaper than an entire new bolt. I like the TL3 with its integral lug which makes barrel swaps easy, and there are many gunsmiths you can make you a barrel without having the action in hand since the TL3 is very consistent in headspace.

With this kind of setup you can have one rifle that does 223 for plinking, a short action standard cartridge for your normal shooting, and a magnum cartridge for serious long range work. All from one platform, with simple screw on/screw off barrel swaps.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Sheldon has a great suggestion. A short action Bighorn TL3 w/ its floating and interchangeable bolt head design will allow you to shoot anything from a 223 boltface (223 rem), 308 bolt face (243, 6.5 creedmoor, 308win), and short action magnums (6.5 PRC, 7wsm, etc). Three bolt heads, 3 barrels, 3 magazines, one stock, action, scope, and trigger.

 

[260284]

Thanks again for all the great feedback. I think I'm narrowing it down.

Given my incessant need to re-engineer, change, modify, hack, and customize. I'm leaning build.

Q1: with the actions that do caliber changes. Could I build a 6.5cm on a long action leaving open the possibility of going larger caliber down the road or at will?

Q2: Is there a specific nomenclature for these actions and the barrels that go in them? Still trying to wrap my head around what is compatible with what.

I'm thinking I can splurge a little on the action if that's the foundation for hot rodding it later.

All Tikka actions are the same length, you just change the bolt stop to switch between short, medium(CTR), and long action. If you are going to switch between the 308 case family, you only need one bolt. New bolts are in the $300-400 range. I bought a complete 270 T3 Lite new for less than $400 shipped for a BR build. Changing bolts would allow you to use 1 action, scope, etc and justify buying extra bolts. A TL3 would be a good option to do the same with a custom action. There is a thread where a guy on here had flats machined on his barrels so he can swap barrels without pulling the action out of his chassis. I think it was a TL3 and he carried everything in a hard case, extra barrels, bolt heads, torque wrench, magazines, etc.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If you are trying to build around flexibility and caliber changes, and you want to have this be a rifle that you shoot regularly I would point you toward a short action build.

Generally speaking, while there is a definite advantage to a long action when talking about serious ELR shooting at 1500 yards and beyond, you will find short action calibers much more enjoyable and economical to shoot on a regular basis. And with a magnum bolt face you can build a gun that is very capable out to your ultimate goal of 1 mile. Something like a 7mm SAUM or 7 Sherman Short or 6.5 SAUM or PRC all are 1 mile capable. Particularly a long barreled fast twist 7mm shooting heavy bullets. That is an extremely capable 1 mile setup.

There's not really a nomenclature for these type of actions, because pretty much any action can do it. All you need is the correct bolt or bolt head, then the tools to switch barrels. You can either buy entire bolts for each case size (223, 308, Magnum) or you can get an action that has interchangeable bolt heads. Either one essentially works the same. Actions that have integral lugs will be a bit easier to swap barrels on, but that's not mandatory.

Since you have already been pointed towards a Bighorn Origin or TL3, I'll echo that recommendation. The interchangeable bolt heads are a bit cheaper than an entire new bolt. I like the TL3 with its integral lug which makes barrel swaps easy, and there are many gunsmiths you can make you a barrel without having the action in hand since the TL3 is very consistent in headspace.

With this kind of setup you can have one rifle that does 223 for plinking, a short action standard cartridge for your normal shooting, and a magnum cartridge for serious long range work. All from one platform, with simple screw on/screw off barrel swaps.

The only reason I was thinking long action was to leave open the possibility of venturing into ELD without having to build a whole new rifle. If it would work, start with 6.5 and going all the way up to something like 338LM..Originally was looking at a 300WM rifle.

Tell me if this is unrealistic or just crazy

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

All Tikka actions are the same length, you just change the bolt stop to switch between short, medium(CTR), and long action. If you are going to switch between the 308 case family, you only need one bolt. New bolts are in the $300-400 range. I bought a complete 270 T3 Lite new for less than $400 shipped for a BR build. Changing bolts would allow you to use 1 action, scope, etc and justify buying extra bolts. A TL3 would be a good option to do the same with a custom action. There is a thread where a guy on here had flats machined on his barrels so he can swap barrels without pulling the action out of his chassis. I think it was a TL3 and he carried everything in a hard case, extra barrels, bolt heads, torque wrench, magazines, etc.

This is kinda what I was thinking. But I would like the option to go big

I do something similar with my AR family. I have a pelican case that I load full of about 10 different uppers recievers and take 2 lowers to shoot them. No tools neccesary.

 

[steve123]

The only reason I was thinking long action was to leave open the possibility of venturing into ELD without having to build a whole new rifle. If it would work, start with 6.5 and going all the way up to something like 338LM..Originally was looking at a 300WM rifle.

Tell me if this is unrealistic or just crazy

Without having the option of owning a different rifle for each purpose there has to be compromises, so you must choose which compromises you can put up with most.

I don't have that luxury so I have one long action rifle, the one I mentioned, that way if I decided to single shoot a 37XC, I could. 37CX is the next step down from 375CT which has a larger bolt face diameter and popular for ELR.

I do have a 6.5 Saum barrel for it. I took advantage of the ability to run that cartridge at a longer length than possible as a repeater in a short action which gets me about 100 fps faster velocities while maintaining the same pressure levels.

I forgot to mention another trick I've used. Those dust collectors sitting in the garage are worth money, sell em and up your budget.

 

[Sheldon N]

The only reason I was thinking long action was to leave open the possibility of venturing into ELD without having to build a whole new rifle. If it would work, start with 6.5 and going all the way up to something like 338LM..Originally was looking at a 300WM rifle.

Tell me if this is unrealistic or just crazy

No, not crazy at all.

The thing I've found though is that the really big guns tend to get shot less often because they are expensive to shoot, high recoil, lots of muzzle blast, etc. They become that gun that sits in the back of the safe that is cool and has some bragging rights, does great out at distance when you do shoot it, but just doesn't get used nearly to the level as other more moderate calibers. Especially true of guns like a 338, but also applies to stuff like 300WM. I sold my long action bolt rifle because I simply didn't use it much in comparison, and I shoot out past 1000 yards all the time with smaller calibers. You would likely find a 6.5 very capable in the 1200-1400yd range as you became a proficient long range shooter.

For the short action ELR options, if you run the ballistic performance of something like a 7mm 180gr ELD-M at 2950 or a 195gr EOL Hybrid at 2800 (very doable in a short action mag fed rifle) you stay supersonic out past 1 mile and have very comparable ballistics to a 300WM. My buddy is just getting his 7mm Sherman Short dialed in on a short action build and he went 4 impacts out of 6 shots on an IPSC at a mile last week.

Mainly my recommendation was colored by the fact that this is going to be a "one rifle" solution for you, because in my mind the one rifle that I would want to shoot most often would be a middle of the road short action caliber. Then when you decide you want to go big and do ELR that's when you add a 7mm magnum barrel, vs having to build a new rifle. Or vs the outcome of having to build a smaller gun because you discover that the long action 300 win mag you built isn't as economical/enjoyable for you as a "daily driver" rifle.

 

[steve123]

No, not crazy at all.

The thing I've found though is that the really big guns tend to get shot less often because they are expensive to shoot, high recoil, lots of muzzle blast, etc. They become that gun that sits in the back of the safe that is cool and has some bragging rights, does great out at distance when you do shoot it, but just doesn't get used nearly to the level as other more moderate calibers. Especially true of guns like a 338, but also applies to stuff like 300WM. I sold my long action bolt rifle because I simply didn't use it much in comparison, and I shoot out past 1000 yards all the time with smaller calibers. You would likely find a 6.5 very capable in the 1200-1400yd range as you became a proficient long range shooter.

For the short action ELR options, if you run the ballistic performance of something like a 7mm 180gr ELD-M at 2950 or a 195gr EOL Hybrid at 2800 (very doable in a short action mag fed rifle) you stay supersonic out past 1 mile and have very comparable ballistics to a 300WM. My buddy is just getting his 7mm Sherman Short dialed in on a short action build and he went 4 impacts out of 6 shots on an IPSC at a mile last week.

Mainly my recommendation was colored by the fact that this is going to be a "one rifle" solution for you, because in my mind the one rifle that I would want to shoot most often would be a middle of the road short action caliber. Then when you decide you want to go big and do ELR that's when you add a 7mm magnum barrel, vs having to build a new rifle. Or vs the outcome of having to build a smaller gun because you discover that the long action 300 win mag you built isn't as economical/enjoyable for you as a "daily driver" rifle.

That's 75% of the reason I sold my 375CT, $4000 sitting in the safe only to be shot twice a year, among other reasons....

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

That's 75% of the reason I sold my 375CT, $4000 sitting in the safe only to be shot twice a year, among other reasons....

Trying to avoid this scenario. I figure a $500 barrel swap would be the cheapest way to flirt with big bore on a custom rifle. Even if 90% of the time I was shooting smaller calibers.

 

[steve123]

Trying to avoid this scenario. I figure a $500 barrel swap would be the cheapest way to flirt with big bore on a custom rifle. Even if 90% of the time I was shooting smaller calibers.

If you won't be shooting PRS or NRL comps you won't need a short action necessarily. Though they are nice and I wouldn't want to be without one. All in good time as they say...

Like Sheldon mentioned, if you had a soft recoiling barrel in a short action cartridge, you'd likely shoot it much more often. I shoot the 6.5 Saum barrel more often than my other long action 30 cal barrel. But that 30 cal was a nice 1 mile cartridge when I needed it.

I haven't owned a Bighorn TL3 but the price of the bolt heads are much cheaper than buying a whole bolt, so that's an advantage I would want.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If you won't be shooting PRS or NRL comps you won't need a short action necessarily. Though they are nice and I wouldn't want to be without one. All in good time as they say...

Like Sheldon mentioned, if you had a soft recoiling barrel in a short action cartridge, you'd likely shoot it much more often. I shoot the 6.5 Saum barrel more often than my other long action 30 cal barrel. But that 30 cal was a nice 1 mile cartridge when I needed it.

I haven't owned a Bighorn TL3 but the price of the bolt heads are much cheaper than buying a whole bolt, so that's an advantage I would want.

What would be the difference between building and shooting a long action 6.5cm vs a short action 6.5cm?

Isn't a M24 a long action 308?

 

[Friday]

In my personal opinion with a 2k budget why not put something together yourself in a different maybe wildcat cartridge if your going to reload if not then stay with your dime a dozen cartridge. You could put together an awesome gun for 2k in a 6.5mm 7mm or 300 Sherman Short mag. Or 243ai 260ai. Why not be different? Off the shelf guns are awesome but something that you personally put everything on that you wanted is much more gratifying.

 

[physguy88]

Looks like a couple of guys asked about your q2 on the Hide and the long range hunting website a while back:

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/short-action-rounds-in-a-long-action.196619/

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...rt-action-cartridges-in-long-actions.6541085/

 

[steve123]

What would be the difference between building and shooting a long action 6.5cm vs a short action 6.5cm?

Isn't a M24 a long action 308?

Kind of the same idea.

 

[physguy88]

Kind of the same idea.

I'm really interested now. Would be really cool to have one gun covering 6.5, .308 and 300 wm. That extra $500 for TL3 and sundry would be worth it.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I'm really interested now. Would be really cool to have one gun covering 6.5, .308 and 300 wm. That extra $500 for TL3 and sundry would be worth it.

That's what I'm thinking, I already reload 308 and 300WM.

Can any action do barrel swaps?

Other than a TL3 what actions have bolt with changeable lugs?

Does it take a special barrel design?

 

[physguy88]

That's what I'm thinking, I already reload 308 and 300WM.

Can any action do barrel swaps?

Other than a TL3 what actions have bolt with changeable lugs?

Does it take a special barrel design?

From what I understand, the action is more of a standardization and manufacturing tolerance issue. The reason the TL3 is set up for barrel swaps is that it's thread diameter is the same as for Savage pre-fit barrels, which are widely available. The tolerances on the TL3 are good enough that you can even have shouldered prefits that can be screwed in without a barrel nut to be able to pass go/no-go gauges. Then, for different sized cases, you can swap the bolt head without needing to purchase a new bolt body.

If you take the typical Remington factory action, I don't know if you can. However, the higher quality custom actions and tikka actions can all use prefit barrels, just not necessarily the savage small shank. See, for example the offerings from bugholes.com, PVA, criterion. Also, I don't know if their short action bolts will work with the long action receivers.

Besides the TL3, the Arc actions such as the nucleus and the mausingfield also take savage small shank and have swappable bolt heads. The main difference there I think are the wait times on your order.

Another choice is a tikka. The tikkas are all long action as others have pointed out. If you choose to build Tikka somebody on the hide did a 300 win mag build recently:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tikka-long-action-caliber-stock-chassis.6904155/

I believe Pva, criterion and bugholes can all do prefit tikka barrels that work with a barrel nut. Not sure where the guy got his carbon barrel from though.

 

[Sheldon N]

Can any action do barrel swaps?

Other than a TL3 what actions have bolt with changeable lugs?

Does it take a special barrel design?

Any action can do barrel swap. Actions where the recoil lug is integral to the body of the action might be a bit easier since less moving parts.

I believe Nucleus, Mausingfield, TL3 and Origin plus Savage actions are the ones that change just the bolt head. All the others can do the same thing, but need a whole bolt vs a bolt head.

Doesn't take a special barrel design. For any action you can buy either a shouldered barrel where it screws up fully against the action and stops (gunsmith sets headspace during chamber cutting process) or you can buy a remage/savage style prefit barrel where the end user sets headspace by screwing the barrel onto a go-gauge then tightening a jam-nut to hold the barrel in place once it is in the correct position (requires go gauge and extra wrench).

Final category is that some actions are manufactured so repeatably and consistently that gunsmiths can chamber a shouldered barrel without ever seeing the action and just sell it to you off the shelf as a prefit. Otherwise you need to send your action to the gunsmith so they can measure and chamber the barrel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

IMHO, the Eargeshplitten Loudenboomer big Magnums are excellent means to getting high terminal energy into targets at extreme distances. At a price; ask your arm about that.

Unless you are planning on meting out massive destruction at "holy cats, that's far...." distances, and are seeking mainly (only) to putting several bullets into very close formation; the ballistic curve is the thing you seek to employ to advantage. High BC and decent velocity are the goal, and they do not need to come in big terminal energy packages.

The 6.5CM mentioned above is a good implement.

Personally, I've got a near 20 year investment in the .260. I see it as the chambering the 6.5CM would like to grow up to be, but really, it's just marginally bigger in case capacity than the 6.5CM. It's been delivering the mail for me for near on a score of years, and age has not degraded anything associated with the chambering.

But the new kids on the block get all the ballyhoo, and the manufacturers (but take note, not the established shooters) have jumped ship hoping to turn it into a lucrative cash cow.

The choice is a toss up, if you're committed to the 260, there is no good reason to jump ship. If you're new to the 6.5 bore diameter; either will do, and the manufacturers have loaded the deck in favor of their new cash cow.

Now then, about build vs buy.

First; $2000 is a big chunk of change. You can get a good shooting rifle, suited for the distance and targets, for a lot less. I've put together a couple of factory rifles with decent performance at distance for about $1000-$1100 including optic.

But there is an element of pride involved in building one's own rifle. There is also an element of chance, and simply put, I'd not personally be betting on a builder with zero experience selecting and constructing $2000 dollars' worth of my high quality parts into a competitively performing LR Precision rifle.

For my two grand, I want to A) find a guy who's done this successfully many times over, and B) tell him what the rifle needs to do, what the budget is, and that the budget is firm.

As for what parts to use, and how to make them work; understand that there will be one professional in the conversation, and you ain't that guy. Leave the how's and why's to the professional.

Harsh? Yeah, that's harsh.

But it's nowhere near as harsh as the realization that maybe, just maybe, you may have just thrown two grand into the shitter.

Let the professionals do what the professionals have grown very good at doing.

Greg

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I'll be honest we are in the heyday of the Long range game, I would no sooner take a rifle to a gunsmith to build than I would an AR. They are simply lego's at this point and if you arent capable of that then you probably shouldnt be shooting a rifle with a range of a mile.

Chambering... different story but the build... it's legos.

I too though have a 20 year addiction to 260 rem its my sweetspot lol.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Or better yet mimic a builder...

John Hancock rifle recipe
Nucleus Action
TT Special trigger
KRG Bravo
PVA barrel of choice
put it all together in about 30m or less. Done enjoy your rifle.

 

[stello1001]

(https://patriotvalleyarms.com/john-hancock-bolt-action-rifle-deposit/

https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-pmr-competition-rifle/)

 

[Sutherlandsd]

(https://patriotvalleyarms.com/john-hancock-bolt-action-rifle-deposit/

https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-pmr-competition-rifle/)

These are perfect starter rifles, my only issue is the well documented ridiculous lead times on them, these same parts can be had for cheaper with little to no wait. Or you could buy now from them and shoot next year.

I would take my time and get these parts on the exchange, however the big plus of waiting these out is shooting production in PRS if thats your thing.

 

[stello1001]

These are perfect starter rifles, my only issue is the well documented ridiculous lead times on them, these same parts can be had for cheaper with little to no wait. Or you could buy now from them and shoot next year.

I would take my time and get these parts on the exchange, however the big plus of waiting these out is shooting production in PRS if thats your thing.

I get what you're saying, and yes it does take time from the time you place your order to the time you actually receive and shoot the rifle. But looking in the PX is in a way similar. You have to buy item by item, one at a time. What are the chances I go in there right now and every single thing I need for that build will already be available there?

Either way, the OP will have a great rifle regardless. Both options will get him there, just a matter of how he decides to get there.

 

[patriot07]

I get what you're saying, and yes it does take time from the time you place your order to the time you actually receive and shoot the rifle. But looking in the PX is in a way similar. You have to buy item by item, one at a time. What are the chances I go in there right now and every single thing I need for that build will already be available there?

Either way, the OP will have a great rifle regardless. Both options will get him there, just a matter of how he decides to get there.

All of these type of discussions are 100% valid, and exactly why a Tikka CTR in 6.5 CM that could be in your hands next week is such a good option. Buy a couple boxes of factory hornady 140 ELD-M ammo, and you have a 3/4 MOA gun without having to turn a wrench, wait a year, spend $2k, or load any ammo. I've hammered 1 MOA plates out to 800 yards with factory ammo on my CTR, and even smaller plates out to 1,100 with handloads.

Anything above a Tikka CTR is where the law of diminishing returns starts kicking in really, really hard. It's so much capability for so little money that it's just hard to get more without spending A LOT more.

 

[stello1001]

All of these type of discussions are 100% valid, and exactly why a Tikka CTR in 6.5 CM that could be in your hands next week is such a good option. Buy a couple boxes of factory hornady 140 ELD-M ammo, and you have a 3/4 MOA gun without having to turn a wrench, wait a year, spend $2k, or load any ammo. I've hammered 1 MOA plates out to 800 yards with factory ammo on my CTR, and even smaller plates out to 1,100 with handloads.

Anything above a Tikka CTR is where the law of diminishing returns starts kicking in really, really hard. It's so much capability for so little money that it's just hard to get more without spending A LOT more.

Also a very VERY solid recommendation.

 

[physguy88]

I get what you're saying, and yes it does take time from the time you place your order to the time you actually receive and shoot the rifle. But looking in the PX is in a way similar. You have to buy item by item, one at a time. What are the chances I go in there right now and every single thing I need for that build will already be available there?

Either way, the OP will have a great rifle regardless. Both options will get him there, just a matter of how he decides to get there.

If you buy the parts new online, and go for an in stock prefit barrel and a bighorn action, wouldn't you in theory have all the parts on your door step in about a month?