20-X Industries - Adjustable Firearm Support - Path Forward? - Now with Demo Videos

[20XI]

Update 2/18/2020

I finished the demonstration videos sooner than I thought I would. Please find them below and let me know what you guys think about the functionality of my AFS. Also, I know everyone isn't on the Hide. If you don't mind pass along the YouTube links to your friends/fellow shooters. Thanks again for the help and feedback.








All,

I’m afraid to admit I have been a long-time stalker on the Hide. The amount of precision rifle knowledge spread across the user base here doesn’t really have an equal and I have referenced it many many times. I am here to reach out to this huge knowledge base and bounce an idea off of you. There is no other way to say it but I am at a fork in the road with a product I have been developing over the past 6 years and it is time to shit or get off the pot.

Rev 2 - AFS

I believe my Adjustable Firearm Support provides functions and ergonomics that are unique and do not exist* in any currently available firearm accessory. My AFS gives the operator the ability to fine tune their rifles elevation while maintaining firm support in the rear of the rifle through the operators preferred means. Further, an operator can transition from the prone to the sitting position very quickly while still using traditional locking bipods, Accu-Tac, Atlas, ETC. The below will be as quick of a backstory as I can give on the origin and current status of my AFS.
*(Please let me know if I am wrong. That may help with the aforementioned fork).

In 2013 the F-Class Midrange National Championship came to Camp Perry. It was within reasonable driving distance so I had to go. I convinced my wife to shoot with me but she didn’t have a suitable rifle and she wasn’t happy with any of the traditional bipods on the market at the time. She didn’t like the ergonomics of adjusting traditional bipods while prone. Out of that requirement I designed and manufactured two F-Class TR specific chassis with my AFS integrated into them.

Rev 1 - AFS

I did away with a traditional rigid rifle forearm and I added an integral pivot mechanism as close to the rifle action as I could. In the case of this version it was a locking ball and socket. This greatly improved the ergonomics and made for a pretty sweet stable setup for shooting F-Class. I will add that my wife and I placed second and first respectively at Camp Perry in 2013. Shortly after we returned, I got the ball rolling on a utility patent, that ball is still rolling and pending. I tried my AFS in some tactical/steel matches and it really sucked. It was too difficult to quickly and precisely move. Needless to say there was still a lot of room for improvement…..



~5 Years Passes



I am the utter definition of paralysis by analysis. My pursuit for perfection and refinement blinded me to what I should’ve been doing…. Getting real world feedback and again that is why I am here now. Those 5 years didn’t go wasted though. I went through over 10 digital iterations before I started cutting metal again. The key to improving was separating the degrees of freedom of the ball. I broke down the mechanism into two parts, elevation and cant adjustment.

Rev 2 AFS on Rev 1 Chassis

The elevation of the rifle is adjusted by turning the black vertical grip. The cant of the rifle is adjusted by loosening the small black locking lever.

And before you ask. It would take a long damn time to adjust from lowest setting to the high setting by turning the handle. In the picture above adjacent to black lever there is a three lobbed knob. When you push this knob, it disengages the half nut thread mechanism and you are free to position the forearm where you like. When you release the spring-loaded knob, it reengages the half nut. You can also lock down the half nut by tightening the knob.

The issue is that this arrangement isn’t readily marketable without selling an entire chassis. That said the recent integration and proliferation of the Really Right Stuff/ACRA dovetail standard has given me another option.

Close up of Rev 2 AFS Adjustments

This was a quick way to test out this thought and I have already improved it but one can see the functional concept from this. I have since acquired some AREA 419 ACRALOCK Clamps and I prefer the two stage screw of their locking knob. I will most likely go with them for the upcoming iteration.

KRG Bravo with AFS Rev 2 - Low Position

KRG Bravo with AFS Rev 2 - High Position

Unfortunately, these two pictures are older and don’t show the KRG RRS dovetail on this Bravo but given the previous close up picture of the dovetail clamp one could see how it would function when attached to an RRS/ACRA dovetail. Side Note: The American Rifle Company Mausingfield is by far my favorite current action.

Here are some pictures of my 338 Lapua with a similar setup.

338 Lapua/Custom Chassis with AFS Rev 2 - Low Position

338 Lapua/Custom Chassis with AFS Rev 2 - High Position

For certain the final design will have RRS/ACRA dovetail compatibility and will be streamlined from the version you have seen here, smaller/lighter and less obtrusive. And incorporate feedback from this discussion if possible.

What I would like to know from the Hide, you can be as nice or as blunt as you like....


Option 1: Do I have a marketable idea and should I keep perusing it?

Option 2: Should I let it die and quit worrying about it and move on to other pending projects?

Option 3: ?????? Something outside the above I haven’t thought of


Please let me know if you have any questions or other comments/feedback. I hope to follow up with a video showing the functionality in the near future.

Thanks for your time,
Lorne Bowman

 

[want2learn]

That is so very impressive. It would be great to see how it works dynamically (video) to better appreciate how easy or difficult it is to manipulate. Also, any idea of it's weight? would also be nice to see how tight it folds for the small barrier windows.

Sure love the design of your chassis as well. So much potential.

I don't know anything about business and making money..... but it looks like a viable product to me if it's as stable, easy to manipulate and reasonably priced..

congratulations...and don't just lurk, participate. Sounds like you have some remarkable skills and a lot to offer

 

[LawnMM]

I think it might work in the ELR market, I'd mount it farther forward though, farther forward the better as it will reduce the radius the barrel moves through in any kind of wobble or lack of stability that presents itself.

Looks heavy.

 

[20XI]

That is so very impressive. It would be great to see how it works dynamically (video) to better appreciate how easy or difficult it is to manipulate. Also, any idea of it's weight? would also be nice to see how tight it folds for the small barrier windows.

Sure love the design of your chassis as well. So much potential.

I don't know anything about business and making money..... but it looks like a viable product to me if it's as stable, easy to manipulate and reasonably priced..

congratulations...and don't just lurk, participate. Sounds like you have some remarkable skills and a lot to offer

Thanks a bunch and you are exactly right I need a video sooner than later. I will get a weight from the heaviest version I currently have. The future version will only go down from there.

 

[20XI]

I think it might work in the ELR market, I'd mount it farther forward though, farther forward the better as it will reduce the radius the barrel moves through in any kind of wobble or lack of stability that presents itself.

Looks heavy.

Thanks for the feedback and good thoughts on moving it forward some. Since it will ultimately be attached to a RRS/ARCA dovetail the end user will be able to do this very easily. You are also correct on the weight. The next iteration is going to go on a diet.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Like the others said I’d like to see a video. I personally probably wouldn’t buy it but I’m kind of a minimalist on gun accessories on my chassis. Just a bipod, no gamer plates, barricade stops.

im all for seeing someone succeed in the market.

 

[20XI]

Like the others said I’d like to see a video. I personally probably wouldn’t buy it but I’m kind of a minimalist on gun accessories on my chassis. Just a bipod, no gamer plates, barricade stops.

im all for seeing someone succeed in the market.

I totally understand. I typically don't use a lot of accessories either. My preference is to use my AFS in integrated into a full blown chassis (it saves a lot of weight) but at this point that would just further delay any public release. That said the modularity of the current iteration works and I'm only going to make it better. Thanks again

 

[Kbh]

I tend to operate under the idea that the less gadgets the better and I don't shoot competitions but that's pretty impressive and looks like it would work well for f class or elr provided it doesn't hurt you in making weight. I agree it would be more stable of it was extended out farther from the action though.

 

[20XI]

The weight of the prototype setup below is ~3.4 pounds. I was just using what I had when I built it. For example the tube with the KRG RRS rail on it has 0.25 inch wall, AKA stupid overbuilt.

I took videos today and I'm editing them now. I hope to have them up by Wednesday.

Thanks

 

[Nik H]

Would love to see the video...it is always easier to understand when you see it in use

 

[20XI]

Demonstration videos are up. Let me know what you think. Thanks

 

[want2learn]

I'm really impressed. I love the way you can adjust poa with the hand grip. what concerns me a bit is the proximity and stability the design takes on as you transition to a more vertical stance,...though this might only be an impression based on a short segment of video.

still i think you might really be onto something.

 

[srt-4_uk]

Looks really good. Now the biggest question. Estimated price?

 

[Longshot85]

First off, congratulations to you and your wife's placement at Camp Perry in 2013!! Enjoy every moment of having a wife that shoots with you.

On to your AFS.......I am really liking the concept. The videos definitely help way more than pictures. I believe getting this on display and in people's hands to experience and shoot would help even more.

Before even scrolling down and seeing the suggestion about having a solution to position a bipod further forward I had the same thought in my head.

Experiment with materials to reduce weight as much as possible but still maintain strength. Thinner walled stainless, titanium and CF/composites come to my mind.

I believe to certain shooters this product would be very appealing.

Have you tested in every environment imaginable ? Any issues in extreme cold, rain, snow, mud, dust etc?

 

[gnochi]

I would love to see a lightest-possible-weight version of this for hunting. Perhaps magnesium joints/etc and carbon fiber tubes for the legs and handle and such? Perhaps integrable bipod legs as well?

All that aside I can’t wait until this goes on the market. I’ll probably be grabbing one.

 

[Lowlight]

I will tell you the biggest downside to these bipod extensions I have seen is bounce.

They bounce when the shot is fired, at least the Carbon Fiber variant I had sent here. I ended up sending it back because the flex was crazy and it was bouncing all the time.

Because of the way these things attach, they are actually more detached from the system vs being actually part of the rifle. In short, they recoil differently from the rest of the rifle.

Mechanically it should be sound, but the execution has to be right, so they will bounce. Like putting the Arca rails past the stocks, we see flex and the groups, while smallish, are still not correct. You see more vertical than should be there.

 

[20XI]

First off, congratulations to you and your wife's placement at Camp Perry in 2013!! Enjoy every moment of having a wife that shoots with you.

Thanks man! We have some very fond memories from Camp Perry + Cedar Point!

On to your AFS.......I am really liking the concept. The videos definitely help way more than pictures. I believe getting this on display and in people's hands to experience and shoot would help even more.

Yes, the videos explain the functionality way better than my pictures and my mechanical engineering jargon. I plan on making a live fire video moving between stages but I haven't had time to get to that range. And you are even more right about getting the AFS in peoples hands. Very soon I hope.

Before even scrolling down and seeing the suggestion about having a solution to position a bipod further forward I had the same thought in my head.

Attaching the AFS further out increases stability but at the cost of ergonomics. I have found in this case that better ergonomics out weight the stability benefits but that is ultimately personal preference.

Experiment with materials to reduce weight as much as possible but still maintain strength. Thinner walled stainless, titanium and CF/composites come to my mind.

In the next AFS iteration I will definitively be able to shed weight and I will most certainly be looking at the material choices you mentioned.

I believe to certain shooters this product would be very appealing.

All I can say is that shooting with it will spoil you. Being able to fine tune elevation and not having to individually adjust bipod legs to match uneven terrain is awesome. Further, when moving between a low angle shot and a high angle shot while remaining prone can be a pain with a traditional setup. This also gets a lot easier with the AFS.

Have you tested in every environment imaginable ? Any issues in extreme cold, rain, snow, mud, dust etc?

No, unfortunately this hasn't seen any hard use yet as far as ugly weather conditions so that is TBD.

Thanks for the feedback and let me know if you think of anything else.

Thanks again,
Lorne

 

[20XI]

Looks really good. Now the biggest question. Estimated price?

No, I do not have a firm price yet and I do not want to give out an estimate and be wrong. Right now I am just looking for as much feedback as possible (positive or negative) to make sure I deliver a solid product.

Thanks

 

[20XI]

I would love to see a lightest-possible-weight version of this for hunting. Perhaps magnesium joints/etc and carbon fiber tubes for the legs and handle and such? Perhaps integrable bipod legs as well?

All that aside I can’t wait until this goes on the market. I’ll probably be grabbing one.

Yes, these are great ideas. Just know that if a super lightweight version comes it wont be till a later product development phase. All focus is currently going towards the standard version.

Thanks

 

[20XI]

I will tell you the biggest downside to these bipod extensions I have seen is bounce.

They bounce when the shot is fired, at least the Carbon Fiber variant I had sent here. I ended up sending it back because the flex was crazy and it was bouncing all the time.

First, thank you for taking the time to comment and the feedback. I will not lie the current iteration has a little bounce. I believe it can be reduced though. What the AFS has that other systems do not have is the ability to precisely return to the desired point of aim through mechanical means. While this doesn't reduce the bounce it helps you get back on target quicker.

Because of the way these things attach, they are actually more detached from the system vs being actually part of the rifle. In short, they recoil differently from the rest of the rifle.

Mechanically it should be sound, but the execution has to be right, so they will bounce. Like putting the Arca rails past the stocks, we see flex and the groups, while smallish, are still not correct. You see more vertical than should be there.

To your point my preferred way of attaching the AFS is through direct chassis integration but for the reasons mentioned in my original post that isn't currently feasible. The whole reason I am here is to get feedback like this that I haven't thought of so I can get the next iteration as right as possible. I really appreciate it.

Again thanks for the time,
Lorne

 

[TheGerman]

I can't figure out if i should be annoyed or aroused.

 

[srt-4_uk]