What is the diameter of the neck with seated bullet? Did you have to neck turn? Doughnuts? What is the neck size of the reamer you used?
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.22 br
- Thread starter Dai Bando
- Start date
Has anybody shooting the 22BR with 88 ELDMs at 3000 fps or more checked the pressures in Quick Load or GRT? I’m just curious, I’m running a 22 GT with 88s and RL 23 at 3050 and GRT says the pressure is under 50K PSI, so low pressure.
When this barrel is toast I’m considering a 22 BR, BRA or Dasher next. I’m not pushing the 22 GT hard so I figured a smaller cartridge next might be a good plan. That and I have 24 pounds of IMR 4166 that seems to work pretty good for @padom so why not?
When this barrel is toast I’m considering a 22 BR, BRA or Dasher next. I’m not pushing the 22 GT hard so I figured a smaller cartridge next might be a good plan. That and I have 24 pounds of IMR 4166 that seems to work pretty good for @padom so why not?
Dia. With bullet seated .249
Turned necks to .012
Reamer is .253 neck. 100 freebore
I turned into the neck so I don't have to worry about them. I will say since I knew my neck diameter I turned necks while I was waiting for my barrel. I'm using Peterson brass because lapua 6br is nonexistent.
Turned necks to .012
Reamer is .253 neck. 100 freebore
I turned into the neck so I don't have to worry about them. I will say since I knew my neck diameter I turned necks while I was waiting for my barrel. I'm using Peterson brass because lapua 6br is nonexistent.
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How thick were the the Peterson before turning? I despise turning hundreds up pieces of brass and then lose them at matches. How many firings do you have on them? Have you lost any to loose primer pockets?
I found a couple hundred pieces of Lapua Dasher brass I bought years ago that is supposed to be couple times fired. I might see if I can run through a sizing die back to 6 BR without destroying them. Maybe it would be wiser to just go 22 dasher with them?
I really don’t like reusing brass anymore since you don’t know if they will cause clickers or hard extraction if they were used in a loose chamber and then you try use them in min spec or proper chamber. Since Lapua is the gold standard and impossible to find since they stopped sending them over I may give them a shot.
After sizing. 014
4 and no loose pockets. A 22 dasher with maybe. 160 freebore I think would be badass.
4 and no loose pockets. A 22 dasher with maybe. 160 freebore I think would be badass.
The loaded necks were .253" prior to turning? I like 5-6 thou clearance on the necks. That would take a reamer with a .258/259 neck, meaning custom order for sure.
I noticed Alpha has a 22 Dasher reamer with a .169” free bore. Maybe this is the way to go? I wonder if I could use my 4166 with this or would need a slower burning powder?
I noticed Alpha has a 22 Dasher reamer with a .169” free bore. Maybe this is the way to go? I wonder if I could use my 4166 with this or would need a slower burning powder?
I've shot lots of 4166 in my 22BR and 22GT. Stupid accurate. So I'm sure it will shoot great in Dasher
22GT
85.5
33.4GR 4166
3194
SD6
0.4" 5 shots no seating tuning
22BR
90smk
30.2gr 4166
3094
SD2
5 shots 0.190" @ 100yd
28.7gr 4166
90smk
2971
SD 6
5 shots 0.369" @ 200yd
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33.4 is my high node in 22GT... low node one hole accuracy is 32gr 3097
I saw no pressure until 35gr.. but QL has 33.5 just over 62,000 so I wouldn't go any higher than that
That sounds promising, especially when I have 24 pounds of it. Thanks for the info!
My dear loving wife went yard / garage sale shopping while i went fishing and she came back with over 1200 Hornady 75 A Max's , at a very very good price.
I haven't been able to find much data but think I want to keep the velocity around 2900 FPS out of a 26" 1-8 tube .
I haven't been able to find much data but think I want to keep the velocity around 2900 FPS out of a 26" 1-8 tube .
That's a very mild load; I'd expect you could get 3100 easily out of that configuration.
I may be wrong , and don't know if these were early or late production , but recall reading about tips on some A Max calibers doing weird things like melting at high velocities ? got one load listing of 29.5 of Varget they list as MAX at 3150 fps.
I don't know, but Hornady themselves developed the ELD-M tip due to tips melting downrange, as observed by radar I believe.
Haven't tried the eld but am getting 3145. with a 75 vld on top of 29 gr of varget. Shoots very very soft with mind blowing accuracy out of a 8tw 24".
Was running 29.5 Varget prior with 80vld, a tad slower but no pressure to speak of.
Was running 29.5 Varget prior with 80vld, a tad slower but no pressure to speak of.
Anyone have this happen before? My 22 BRA brass gets abnormally dirty, today it was bad enough that brass was sticking in the chamber. My best guess is this is something to do with the reamer neck being too large for the brass?
22 BRA
Lapua brass
3rd firing
Only wiped down between firings which is why the necks are black.
30.7gr of Varget
90 SMK
Suppressed, Nomad-L (high back pressure, lots of blow back.)
6 Dasher, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC all don't have this issue, only the necks get carbon on them when shooting but never the body.
Last outing I was testing Staball Match and n140, I cleaned the barrel afterwards. The brass always gets dirty compared to other calibers with the 22 BRA, I was expecting it to lessen with firings figuring the shoulder needed to continue to form and seal up the chamber better but after today I'm doubting that logic.
Here's what the fired brass looks like, many are as bad as the bottom piece.
22 BRA
Lapua brass
3rd firing
Only wiped down between firings which is why the necks are black.
30.7gr of Varget
90 SMK
Suppressed, Nomad-L (high back pressure, lots of blow back.)
6 Dasher, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC all don't have this issue, only the necks get carbon on them when shooting but never the body.
Last outing I was testing Staball Match and n140, I cleaned the barrel afterwards. The brass always gets dirty compared to other calibers with the 22 BRA, I was expecting it to lessen with firings figuring the shoulder needed to continue to form and seal up the chamber better but after today I'm doubting that logic.
Here's what the fired brass looks like, many are as bad as the bottom piece.
A couple thoughts:
- This quote stood out to me:
Carbon can build cumulatively, so if you aren’t getting it all off the outside after each firing, it could be affecting the seal. Consider tumbling your brass.
- What’s your cleaning process for the chamber?
I haven't had an issue with other cartridges like this but you might be right. I might need to tumble these through the wet tumbler. I don't like the wet tumbler because it peens the necks in and does more damage than good (so far with all other cartridges. )
To clean the chamber I use Ramrods (big qtip like things.). I use hoppes #9 or Sweets 762 soaked on those and swab the chamber and necks then use a follow up ramrod with IPA to clean out any remaining solvents.
The 22 BRA has been noticably dirtier than other rounds which only gets carbon on the necks and have never had sticking issues. Here's a quickie shoot of 22 BRA brass shot after the second firing (correction, not the 3rd), 6 Dasher fired 7x, 6.5 Creedmoor fired 4x. The Dasher and CM have been wiped down and annealed, 22 BRA has not been.
To clean the chamber I use Ramrods (big qtip like things.). I use hoppes #9 or Sweets 762 soaked on those and swab the chamber and necks then use a follow up ramrod with IPA to clean out any remaining solvents.
The 22 BRA has been noticably dirtier than other rounds which only gets carbon on the necks and have never had sticking issues. Here's a quickie shoot of 22 BRA brass shot after the second firing (correction, not the 3rd), 6 Dasher fired 7x, 6.5 Creedmoor fired 4x. The Dasher and CM have been wiped down and annealed, 22 BRA has not been.
I’m sure there’s a root issue, such as chamber clearances or whatnot, that make it a problem for this cartridge of yours and not others. Hopefully someone can steer you in the right direction for that
My main thoughts were on how to manage the current situation, since you’re pretty much stuck with the chamber you have (although you could change the sizing die or brass if it turned out either of those were the problem).
PS: I have a wet tumbler I never use anymore; switched to fine ground walnut in a Harbor Freight vibratory, and I run the brass for 25 mins in there. Seems to get the exterior to a repeatable clean, although not shiny and pristine like the wet tumbler would. With you on the necks, I don’t want to trim every time.
Thanks, I'm going to look into a vibratory or ultrasonic cleaner. I think I am having pressure issues caused by cleaning issues due to the extra dirty neck/shoulder of my 22 BRA (which might be due to a too lose of a chamber?)I’m sure there’s a root issue, such as chamber clearances or whatnot, that make it a problem for this cartridge of yours and not others. Hopefully someone can steer you in the right direction for that
My main thoughts were on how to manage the current situation, since you’re pretty much stuck with the chamber you have (although you could change the sizing die or brass if it turned out either of those were the problem).
PS: I have a wet tumbler I never use anymore; switched to fine ground walnut in a Harbor Freight vibratory, and I run the brass for 25 mins in there. Seems to get the exterior to a repeatable clean, although not shiny and pristine like the wet tumbler would. With you on the necks, I don’t want to trim every time.
I inspected everything closer today to diagnose the issue. Pulled 6 bullets at random, weighed the charge and visually confirmed the powder was Varget, no issues here. Wiped down the brass I shot yesterday and measured a few key points. Noticed right away that about half the shot rounds had major pressure issues; the base of the brass where not in the chamber had flowed out a little bit causing a little lip like a rimmed cartridge. This is even visible on the picture I posted yesterday and didn't notice until today. Not good; at the range I was discounting that it might have been pressure because the weather was cold and I'd shot 1.0grn more powder before which was where I was seeing heavy bolt lift. I've also had a dirty chamber cause stuck brass before so I jumped the conclusion that it was the carbon causing the stuck brass. I was wrong and thankfully leaned a lesson that only cost me some confusion and ~15 pcs of brass.
Then I pulled out the bore scope and started to find issues right away. Even with my normal cleaning that should clean out the neck and shoulder there was hard baked on carbon building up in the neck and shoulder. I'm guessing because the 22 BRA is so dirty that it's depositing carbon in the necks which is causing extra pressure. I scoped my 6 Dasher barrel with 1k rounds on it and the neck is clean and doesn't have any build up.
I'm not sure why the 22 BRA gets so dirty. I think it has too much neck clearance and that might be part of it. I measured fired brass with the dirty neck at 0.257" so figure if it was clean it might be 0.258" or 0.259". Loaded rounds measure 0.2505" in the neck.
Next 22 BRA barrel I have cut will be with a .255 neck reamer that I have a 0.160" freebore. This barrel is a PVA 0.150" freebore 22 BRA, Osprey.
Dirty Chamber Neck:
Shoulder looks like it had baked on carbon as well:
I don't think it was a carbon ring issue; looks like the carbon build up was minimal between the brass and end of the neck:
I cleaned out the neck and chamber and I bet next time out it shoots without issues. Lesson is i'm going to have to clean the chamber more than normal with this barrel. Baked on carbon removed:
I tested dirty vs clean brass years ago. No difference try tumbling vs wiping off vs squeaky clean SS cleaning.
I only dry tumble my brass.
Your brass thst dirty is some other issue....you shooting suppressed?? If not, it's not sealing off.
I only dry tumble my brass.
Your brass thst dirty is some other issue....you shooting suppressed?? If not, it's not sealing off.
Good info, yeah that dirty neck area in the chamber is definitely indicative of a problem; it's not the root cause (I think you're right that you have too much clearance, my chamber is a 0.255" neck), but once those deposits build up they'll inhibit sealing even more. Good finds with the borescope, and the pressure issues. Godspeed!
Did you seat bullets long into the rifling on first shot to create a good pressure spike. My 223ai did what yours is doing on my first batch.The second i seated long and the brass was much cleaner and formed better on first firing
I did not jam the bullets. Maybe next time I fireform some brass i'll try that out.
I would say your cases aren't formed and therefore the chamber isn't sealing off...
28.0gr and not jammed is a LIGHT load for 22BRA..
My 22BR Varget OCW was 28.2 - 30.0gr Varget with 90smk...
Next time I form brass I'll experiment with different methods. Jamming and also trying 28.5 and 29.0gr.
Here's a before and after from 28.0gr.
Unlike a dasher where you are moving the shoulder forward and changing angle, shouldn’t the shoulder of the BR case be touching the shoulder of the BRA chamber at some point? I thought this is the idea behind the Ackley Improved chamberings?
That's my understanding also but maybe I need to back off my 22 BRA sizing die a bit to get a better crush fit of the neck shoulder junction. That crush fit would help to seal off the chamber better. I recently fireformed Dasher brass also using 28.0gr of Varget and it formed up great and didn't have carbon leaking around the body of the die. And I think the reason why is because I'm crush fitting a .257 ID false shoulder into the neck and getting a good seal.
If you don’t have a slight crush fit like would be typical with an Ackley Improved then that could be the problem. Without a doubt the suppressor is keeping the back pressure up and sooting up your chamber. My guess is there is still gas pressure in the barrel when the brass cools enough and contracts that it gets between the brass and chamber.
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Most people chamber a bra to a br go gauge -0.004 to achieve a light crush on br brass to help with forming yes. If I were doing a 22bra, I'd just neck down far enough to where there's slight bolt closure resistance headspacing on the false shoulder in the neck area.
tried 28.0 gr varget and 2.35 coal for my first batch of 22 br w/ 88 eldm
also gave 30 gr varget a quick try with 62 eldvt, i forget what seating depth.
I have a 7 twist mullerworks 219 bore from southern precision. dunno the FB
groups worthless because i forgot to tighten my scope rail, so my elevation is all over the place.
chrono results
19 shots 88 eldm, avg velocity 2855, es 44, sd 10.9
3 shots 62 eldvt, avg velocity 3197, extreme spread 20
anyone have h4350 loads for 88 eldm? varget seems good but it doesnt fill the case.
also gave 30 gr varget a quick try with 62 eldvt, i forget what seating depth.
I have a 7 twist mullerworks 219 bore from southern precision. dunno the FB
groups worthless because i forgot to tighten my scope rail, so my elevation is all over the place.
chrono results
19 shots 88 eldm, avg velocity 2855, es 44, sd 10.9
3 shots 62 eldvt, avg velocity 3197, extreme spread 20
anyone have h4350 loads for 88 eldm? varget seems good but it doesnt fill the case.
Have you tried putting more Varget in the case? Seems you're a bit underloaded to me, unless that's a short barrel.
Uh.. you need to try a little harder than 28.0 one seating depth and saying it doesn't shoot.
I've been through 3 22BR barrels now and 6 or 7 different bullets and various powders.. 22BR hammers with varget. H4350 isn't ideal for 22br and doesn't come close to Varget, H4895, 4166, N550
Here's 9 shots @ 100yd out of your same barrel.. Mullerworks 7 twist 219 28"
28.5gr Varget 88ELD 0.01 off
I've been through 3 22BR barrels now and 6 or 7 different bullets and various powders.. 22BR hammers with varget. H4350 isn't ideal for 22br and doesn't come close to Varget, H4895, 4166, N550
Here's 9 shots @ 100yd out of your same barrel.. Mullerworks 7 twist 219 28"
28.5gr Varget 88ELD 0.01 off
There are lots of reports of people settling in at 28.5-29.5; my load with 88's was 31.3gr of RL-16 but you have to back down a bit with Varget, I saw the first hints of pressure at 28.5gr in my setup.
I'd start with a charge ladder to find where you see pressure; that will tell you when to turn back and find a good charge weight below that.
where did i say it doesnt shoot??? i'm gonna assume positive intent here and think you just didn't read my post
yeah 28.5 to 29.5 seems good and the simulation thinks that will top out at 61k psi with 90% case fill. According to the sim, H4350 would get to 95% case fill at a similar pressure level.
I can't velocity out of Varget, so my load is 31.4 RL-16 out of a 30 inch 1:7 McGowen barrel. COAL is 2.270. Velocity is 3026.
I get the best groups from Varget but for a 1000 I need velocity with OK groups and RL-16 does it.
I too am going to try H4350 down the road but my GRT simulations show it in between Varget and RL-16
David
I had horrible results trying to get H4350 to group. A lot of work and accuracy was nowhere near all the other powders I tested. 4166 is stupid accurate and fast out of my 28" Bartlein 7.5
That makes sense to me. It's still a bit over bore I think. Not as much as 22 GT or 22 Creedmoor. That said, PADOM has real world experience with several barrels. Maybe another powder in the H4350 area would do better? I always try for a good case fill, but accuracy down range doesn't always play by the "case fill rules"!
This is very similar to my N550/90smk load. I'm running 31.3gr N550 90smk 0.01 off out of my 28" MW 1-7 getting 2992 SD6 and it shoots consistently in the high 0.1's - low 0.2's...
Almost same speed. I'd very close to your RL16 speed if I had a 30in barrel vs my 28in.
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I haven't experienced any noticeable issues or big swings. I've shot it from 35F - 80F....I like it because it gives higher velocity with less pressure. It's my go to in 22GT as well. Much better results than H4350 in my 22GT.
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