22 creedmoor

[Rugerjim]

Hi guys.
I'm building a 22 Creedmoor right now with a 24" heavy varmint barrel. I went with a 10 twist hoping to stabilise both 55gr vmax and 73gr ELD's etc. Just wondering the sort of velocity you are getting with the 73's and varget. Also, wondering if a 73 should stabilise in my 10 twist. Trying to find some middle ground.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Your velocity should help make up some of the stability given up to the slower twist, but only the gun can tell you for sure. If not, the 69 TMK would be another solid choice. Or even the new 64gn Tipped Gameking for a one-and-done load. If you get the 73's to shoot, don't be afraid to run them on fur as well as steel. They have killed quite well for me in 223AI, all the way up to Whitetails here in Oklahoma (125-150#)

 

[Rugerjim]

Trying to delete to edit

 

[Rugerjim]

Your velocity should help make up some of the stability given up to the slower twist, but only the gun can tell you for sure. If not, the 69 TMK would be another solid choice. Or even the new 64gn Tipped Gameking for a one-and-done load. If you get the 73's to shoot, don't be afraid to run them on fur as well as steel. They have killed quite well for me in 223AI, all the way up to Whitetails here in Oklahoma (125-150#)

Thanks Huckleberry. I'm really torn between a 12 and 10 twist right now. Decisions decisions!!
Has anyone shot the 62gr TAP barrier projectiles into game? They look like they start expanding the most after about 3 inches, but that is at a speed of 2950. They would punch around +/- 4k in a Creedmoor. Anyone shot game with them? Only 60 bucks per 500. Failing that, 53/55gr vmax and 73's will have to do.

 

[Huckleberry75]

I thought that historically the TAP ammo has been built with Amax bullets, now ELD-M. Those bullets could splatter/splash and fail to penetrate on critters.

If you are going to run the 40-60gn bullets, either 12 or 10 should be fine. Heck most factory 22-250 are 14twists and they will usually stabilize the Sierra 63gn Semi-pointed Spitzer.

 

[Rugerjim]

I thought that historically the TAP ammo has been built with Amax bullets, now ELD-M. Those bullets could splatter/splash and fail to penetrate on critters.

If you are going to run the 40-60gn bullets, either 12 or 10 should be fine. Heck most factory 22-250 are 14twists and they will usually stabilize the Sierra 63gn Semi-pointed Spitzer.

Thanks man appreciate it 73gr ELDM is on special at the moment and I was going to buy 1000. And 1000 55gr vmax. (53's are abit exy atm)

 

[Buzzbee]

you will need another barrel by then

 

[30338]

Bartlein 7 twist at 22". 40.7 H4350, 2.67 OAL on a .100 throat, CCI LR primer, alpha brass, 88 ELD doing 3190. Had several .25 groups at 100 and a 1.25 3 shot group at 600. Load development done and hoping it keeps perking with these for a good bit.

Edit: Switched to new lot of 88 ELD and ran into pressure with above. Backed off to 39.8 H4350 and all good.

 

[Fulton County Redneck]

Hey All!! New guy to the forum. Thanks for all of the info on load development for the 22 Creed! I have parts coming for a custom AR 10 that I am building myself. Running a heavy profile X-Caliber 26" with 1:7 5R Twist. Anyone have load data for a gas gun running 85.5 grn Bergers?

 

[TxDerek]

Hey All!! New guy to the forum. Thanks for all of the info on load development for the 22 Creed! I have parts coming for a custom AR 10 that I am building myself. Running a heavy profile X-Caliber 26" with 1:7 5R Twist. Anyone have load data for a gas gun running 85.5 grn Bergers?

Find H4350 if you can, I'd start around 39.0gr, work up in 0.2gr increments, record all data, enjoy! Lots of people find themselves between 40 - 41gr of H4350.

 

[Fulton County Redneck]

Okay Derek thanks for the info!! Now I just have to wait for the barrel to get here. X-Caliber has a 6-8 week lead time but I just got an email a few days ago that they are dropping to a skeleton crew because of the Covid 19. Gonna be itching to get the barrel broke in by the time it gets here!!!!

 

[Tcarl145]

Is anyone using Petersen brass. I have been using Hornady in my current barrel but switching up to a carbon barrel. I cant find Hornady brass so I got some Petersen brass to try in the new barrel. There is new Petersen load info out and shows high pressure loads based on their testing. Those loads are much lower than I shoot with Hornady brass. I'm wondering how much lower I will need to start with Petersen brass compared to my Hornady brass. Any info from you guys will be helpful.

 

[PAYDIRT]

@McGowen

 

[MNfarmer]

Hey all jumped on the 22 creed wagon as well mostly because of this thread. Getting the parts together now just wondering if anyone here uses a 22-250 collet for there 22 creed? I really like the collet die but dont want to wait months to have lee make one thanks for any feedback.

 

[spife7980]

I’ll dump my data here for others to look at
26” 7twist 22 creed with pva 062 freebore
Alpha 22 creed srp brass, 100 cases total
85 rdf
Rl26
Cci450

Virgin cases, took it easy to get an easy forming load

Measurements after one firing

First test in .5 increments at 100 yards with fire formed brass to find pressure and it was in a light misty rain, 44 started to give slight ejector marks and slight bolt lift resistance, functional max found

Do it again but at 500 in .3 increments, I suspect that 42.5 flier got absent mindedly shot at the wrong dot so looks to be something at 42.2-42.5 and then something at 43.1-43.7

Checking out that top node in .1 increments

Now it’s all been shot twice

Seeing how seating depth effects it, pretty tolerant

10 shot confirmation, I’ll just load them at this for the next few firings while the lands erode and see if I need to change it at 500 rounds.

Hopefully this was evidence enough to give some guidelines with this combo

 

[shoot4fun]

This is a 22CM 7 twist with just under 500 rounds. Powder is H4350 in Alpha brass with Hornady 90 A-Tip.
It isn't my rifle but I did ask if all the bullets made it to the target last time he shot it. He said mirage and wind were bad so he didn't know. I think the first pic is the sign of a bullet blowing up in the barrel. He says the second pic is same spot after cleaning. Pics are just ahead of the throat. By my count above @spife7980 you are half way thru that barrel now.

 

[Boatninja]

I’ll dump my data here for others to look at
26” 22 creed with pva 062 freebore
Alpha 22 creed srp brass, 100 cases total
85 rdf
Rl26
Cci450

Virgin cases, took it easy to get an easy forming load
View attachment 7323957

Measurements after one firing
View attachment 7323958
First test in .5 increments at 100 yards with fire formed brass to find pressure and it was in a light misty rain, 44 started to give slight ejector marks and slight bolt lift resistance, functional max found
View attachment 7323959
Do it again but at 500 in .3 increments, I suspect that 42.5 flier got absent mindedly shot at the wrong dot so looks to be something at 42.2-42.5 and then something at 43.1-43.7
View attachment 7323960
Checking out that top node in .1 increments
View attachment 7323973

Now it’s all been shot twice
View attachment 7323974
Seeing how seating depth effects it, pretty tolerant
View attachment 7323975
10 shot confirmation, I’ll just load them at this for the next few firings while the lands erode and see if I need to change it at 500 rounds.
View attachment 7323976

Hopefully this was evidence enough to give some guidelines with this combo

Thank's for posting, it is great having some data to compare to. Are you running 1-7" twist?

 

[spife7980]

Thank's for posting, it is great having some data to compare to. Are you running 1-7" twist?

Yep, I’ll edit that

 

[parshal]

Not sure what to tell you, but I have had zero issues with the Berger 85.5’s out of my 26” 8 twist. I’m on my third box of these. I run 40.5 grains of RL17 and they are 3380-3400fps (with suppressor). I’ve worked them out to 800yds so far with amazing results.

I spun up another barrel and did some more testing. I didn't see any jacket separation.

I'm using Lapua 22-250 brass and I can see some markings on the case head at 3360 FPS that I don't see at 3250 FPS. I plan to do some more testing to see which of those two velocities has the best accuracy. I did have a three shot one hole group (100 yds) at 3358 with an SD of 12.7. I'd like to play with that load more but I need to keep a close eye on the pressure and jacket separation. I'm not convinced it's not a bit over max.

Has anyone done more testing with the 85.5's? What the max velocity you guys are seeing? I'm curious how my 3360 load compares.

 

[Timberline284]

Anyone here with a 22 Creed built on a Tikka? Thinking of throwing one together to use with CTR mags. If using CTR mags, anyone run into issues with longer projectiles like 90-95 gr SMKs?

will let you know how i get on, have a tikka t3x just waiting for some bits to be posted for it, want to run the 77gr smk, barrel is an 8 twist at 25.5, have the moderator waiting for it. its in a mcmillan a-3 edge. have 5lbs of re26 to try.

anyone have any loads to start at? reloader 26, lapua brass small primer small flash hole, 77gr smk. thanks in advance

 

[Birddog6424]

I have a 22BR that I run in PRS that pushes the 88gr ELDM around 3k. It gets about 2500 rounds out of the barrel.

I really want to experiment with the 22 Creedmoor with the 95gr SMK at around 3000 to 3050fps. The big question being what kind of barrel life would it see, and would I spend all my time after 800 rounds chasing the lands like I do on my 6 Creedmoor. If I could get 2k rounds out of it without fiddling with it constantly, I think that would make a pretty decent PRS rifle.

I think the BR would be hard put to push that bullet much over 2900fps. I have a bunch of SMKs coming to test, but from what I'm reading from other 22BR owners, I dont think it'll hit the velocities I'm looking for.

Thoughts?

 

[Boatninja]

I spun up another barrel and did some more testing. I didn't see any jacket separation.

I'm using Lapua 22-250 brass and I can see some markings on the case head at 3360 FPS that I don't see at 3250 FPS. I plan to do some more testing to see which of those two velocities has the best accuracy. I did have a three shot one hole group (100 yds) at 3358 with an SD of 12.7. I'd like to play with that load more but I need to keep a close eye on the pressure and jacket separation. I'm not convinced it's not a bit over max.

Has anyone done more testing with the 85.5's? What the max velocity you guys are seeing? I'm curious how my 3360 load compares.

With a Criterion match chamber shooting RL 26, Alpha brass .025 jump showing pressure at 4400, blown primer at 4440, 80 degrees but ammo and gun in shade.

 

[Boatninja]

For the 65, you will want to run Varget instead of the H4350. We run the 69tmk with 39.0gns of Varget and its magic. 3510fps from 20" 9tw. Nearly identical speeds from that load in more than one 20" rifle. You might have to "stand on it" to get the 3600. I would strongly recommend the SRP Lapua brass for that and stay the hell away from Alpha brass, it shows pressure signs way before the Lapua and doesn't give the speed. That is not just my findings either.

Have you tried Varget with 75 gr Eld-ms or 85.5 gr Berger?. And I have blown primers an Alpha brass at 3400 fps

 

[Huckleberry75]

Have you tried Varget with 75 gr Eld-ms or 85.5 gr Berger?. And I have blown primers an Alpha brass at 3400 fps

No sir, I have not..and that is no surprise

 

[parshal]

With a Criterion match chamber shooting RL 26, Alpha brass .025 jump showing pressure at 4400, blown primer at 4440, 80 degrees but ammo and gun in shade.

85.5 gr Bergers at 4400 FPS?

 

[Boatninja]

85.5 gr Bergers at 4400 FPS?
[/QUOTE
]No sir, sorry, misprint, 3400fps as stated in previous post. Should have been obvious.

 

[Birddog6424]

95gr SMKs from my 22BR didn't pan out. That little case just can't achieve the speed I was hoping for.

So I ordered a .224 Hawk Hill in MTU with a 7" twist. I'll finish that at a 26" 22 Creedmoor. I need to get ahold of Manson and get a reamer ordered. I want to make sure I get a .257 neck. I'm not worried about freebore at this point, I have a throating tool for that caliber. But if I have to special order to get the neck I want I'll have them put .150" freebore on it.

It'll be interesting to see how this caliber will hold up in PRS in the 3050fps range.

 

[McNamara0851]

Has anyone played with a 22CM in a gas gun? This is my first large frame. It’s a 24”, 8 twist, +2 gas, Bartlein chambered by Craddock. JP BCG and SCS. I ran a few loads with 4350 and 75s with Alpha SRP brass. I came into pressure early on in my load work up. I’m playing with other brass and breaking in the barrel with some powder puff loads before I start dialing in a load, but I am curious to see if anyone else has had success with 75 class projectiles in an AR-10. My goal is to run 77 gr Cayuga solids at 3300 fps plus for night coyotes at safe pressures.

 

[Birddog6424]

Has anyone played with a 22CM in a gas gun? This is my first large frame. It’s a 24”, 8 twist, +2 gas, Bartlein chambered by Craddock. JP BCG and SCS. I ran a few loads with 4350 and 75s with Alpha SRP brass. I came into pressure early on in my load work up. I’m playing with other brass and breaking in the barrel with some powder puff loads before I start dialing in a load, but I am curious to see if anyone else has had success with 75 class projectiles in an AR-10. My goal is to run 77 gr Cayuga solids at 3300 fps plus for night coyotes at safe pressures.

That will be a really fun round..

 

[223762]

Got 22 creed up and running. Barrel is a Bartlein 219x224 gain twist 7.6-6.8 5r 26 inches long. I found 3 velocity nodes with the 95SMK using H4350. I picked the middle node. They are going 3113 average. Barrel has 66 rounds on it only. Its showing its going to speed up to the 3130ish range. After another 60 rounds or so I should know for sure. I did a seating depth test, and all the loads shot under half moa at 100 yds. The further I put the bullet in the case the better it got. Here are the pics from the seating test. All are 3 shot groups.

 

[Birddog6424]

Interesting jump test. I usually go .020, .040, .060, .080, and .100" once the bullet gets that long. Its pretty rare to see much difference in .005, or even .010" difference.

If your seeing a lot of change in POI in such small increments of seating depth, it doesn't bode well. You're going to be chasing the lands a lot as your throat wears. Its pretty squirelly under .040, but I bet it settles out nicely after that..

My last 22BR load with 88gr ELDs really tightened up at .040" and stayed under .5" moa all the way to .100. Which pretty much played out perfectly. I shot 28.5grs of Varget at .040" jump for the entire 2500 round life of the barrel.

 

[dang472]

Has anyone played with a 22CM in a gas gun? This is my first large frame. It’s a 24”, 8 twist, +2 gas, Bartlein chambered by Craddock. JP BCG and SCS. I ran a few loads with 4350 and 75s with Alpha SRP brass. I came into pressure early on in my load work up. I’m playing with other brass and breaking in the barrel with some powder puff loads before I start dialing in a load, but I am curious to see if anyone else has had success with 75 class projectiles in an AR-10. My goal is to run 77 gr Cayuga solids at 3300 fps plus for night coyotes at safe pressures.

Just curious when you ordered your barrel from Craddock. I ordered an 8 twist in 22 Creed on March 9th and still haven’t seen it. My AR10 will be a very similar setup for my night coyote rig.

 

[223762]

Interesting jump test. I usually go .020, .040, .060, .080, and .100" once the bullet gets that long. Its pretty rare to see much difference in .005, or even .010" difference.

If your seeing a lot of change in POI in such small increments of seating depth, it doesn't bode well. You're going to be chasing the lands a lot as your throat wears. Its pretty squirelly under .040, but I bet it settles out nicely after that..

My last 22BR load with 88gr ELDs really tightened up at .040" and stayed under .5" moa all the way to .100. Which pretty much played out perfectly. I shot 28.5grs of Varget at .040" jump for the entire 2500 round life of the barrel.

I’m loading them at .045 off. .040 and .050 shot very good. Loading them at .045 I know I have .005 on either side of .045. I’ll have to chase the lands. But if it gets out of tune, I can back it off at least .006 and I should be back in tune.

 

[Birddog6424]

You could make a better decision if you saw how it grouped at .060 and .080". You're going to lose around .030 or so off the lands at around the 1000 round mark. Maybe more.

If it groups good at those further jump distances, I would put it at .040 and shoot it till it stops shooting good. You know you won't have to pay close attention to it if you have .040" or more leeway of lands erosion before your groups open up.

Just my two bits..

 

[223762]

Your right I could. I could keep seating the bullets deeper in the case. I may find that it still shoots great. But, with seating it deeper in the case I'm going to hit a different tune in the barrel. It maybe .055 or .070. I don't know. It shoots great where it is and I have .010 to play with. I'm really wondering how the throat erosion well go. If it only grows .030 in 1000 rounds, I'd say thats pretty good. The load is 39.6 of H4350. It is a mild load. I could run them up a little and still be safe. I'll have to let you know how the throat erosion goes.

 

[McNamara0851]

Just curious when you ordered your barrel from Craddock. I ordered an 8 twist in 22 Creed on March 9th and still haven’t seen it. My AR10 will be a very similar setup for my night coyote rig.

I think I told him to spin it up in December, got it a few weeks ago.

 

[223762]

Got to get out to 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards today. I got the kestrel all dialed in. Barrel sped up. Average 3129 velocity SD in the 5s. I’m running the g7 at .292 with the 95smk and it was lining up at all the yard lines. All proned up you can see the trace of the bullet. Even doing positional shooting I could see trace. Here is a 3 shot group at 300. The target is a 200 yard high power target. So X is 2.5 inches?? I messed the second shot up. But, its still right around an inch.

 

[Timberline284]

just got some rounds loaded, 45gr of reloader 26, 2.110, 3500 fps, 77gr tmk. .3 group at 100 yards. lapua 6 creed brass necked down to 254 run through an expander and turned. this load was used in another rifle, did not develop at all, dont know the jump. i will just shoot it how it is.

 

[Dschapp44]

Got to get out to 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards today. I got the kestrel all dialed in. Barrel sped up. Average 3129 velocity SD in the 5s. I’m running the g7 at .292 with the 95smk and it was lining up at all the yard lines. All proned up you can see the trace of the bullet. Even doing positional shooting I could see trace. Here is a 3 shot group at 300. The target is a 200 yard high power target. So X is 2.5 inches?? I messed the second shot up. But, its still right around an inch.

I have a bolt gun but have to run the G7 at .312 going 3180 with the speed checked on a magnetospeed to match impacts at 1000

 

[jsel10]

I have a 22BR that I run in PRS that pushes the 88gr ELDM around 3k. It gets about 2500 rounds out of the barrel.

I really want to experiment with the 22 Creedmoor with the 95gr SMK at around 3000 to 3050fps. The big question being what kind of barrel life would it see, and would I spend all my time after 800 rounds chasing the lands like I do on my 6 Creedmoor. If I could get 2k rounds out of it without fiddling with it constantly, I think that would make a pretty decent PRS rifle.

I think the BR would be hard put to push that bullet much over 2900fps. I have a bunch of SMKs coming to test, but from what I'm reading from other 22BR owners, I dont think it'll hit the velocities I'm looking for.

Thoughts?

22 Dasher??

 

[223762]

have a bolt gun but have to run the G7 at .312 going 3180 with the speed checked on a magnetospeed to match impacts at 1000

Yea, thats a big BC for a small bullet!! Bullet lot can change BC, where your shooting. Like altitude. What twist barrel are you using? I’m really liking the 95smk a lot. I was shooting at a 6 inch circle at 600 and I could easily see my impacts. I hope that plays out at the farther distances.

 

[Dschapp44]

Yea, thats a big BC for a small bullet!! Bullet lot can change BC, where your shooting. Like altitude. What twist barrel are you using? I’m really liking the 95smk a lot. I was shooting at a 6 inch circle at 600 and I could easily see my impacts. I hope that plays out at the farther distances.

I’ve had a totally of 4 lots so far and it’s stayed pretty consistent. I shoot in the Midwest so generally altitude is around 1000 feet. Current barrel is a 6.5 twist. I had a 7 twist and BC was still .308 G7

 

[223762]

I’ve had a totally of 4 lots so far and it’s stayed pretty consistent. I shoot in the Midwest so generally altitude is around 1000 feet. Current barrel is a 6.5 twist. I had a 7 twist and BC was still .308 G7

Have you ever had one come apart? You are running them around 352k RPM. Is your barrel a 4 groove 5R? Do you clean the barrel often? Hard to not look at this bullet when your getting a g7 of .312. That thing is a laser.

 

[Dschapp44]

Have you ever had one come apart? You are running them around 352k RPM. Is your barrel a 4 groove 5R? Do you clean the barrel often? Hard to not look at this bullet when your getting a g7 of .312. That thing is a laser.

oh yeah. I’ve blown up quite a few 95s and a ton of hornady eldm bullets. The eldm seem to have thinner jackets. If I push them over 3200 with a 6.5 twist the 95 can come apart, but with a 7 twist I was able to get them going 3300 before coming apart.

These bullets seem to have a sweet spot for accuracy going in the 3100-3120 range and it keeps RPMs lower. Also you need a 5R barrel pushing them at this rpm as it seems to cause less jacket issues compared to a 4 groove. I’ve run one at a 2 day before but I normally clean every 100-150 rounds.

 

[223762]

oh yeah. I’ve blown up quite a few 95s and a ton of hornady eldm bullets. The eldm seem to have thinner jackets. If I push them over 3200 with a 6.5 twist the 95 can come apart, but with a 7 twist I was able to get them going 3300 before coming apart.

These bullets seem to have a sweet spot for accuracy going in the 3100-3120 range and it keeps RPMs lower. Also you need a 5R barrel pushing them at this rpm as it seems to cause less jacket issues compared to a 4 groove. I’ve run one at a 2 day before but I normally clean every 100-150 rounds

Agree on the 5R over a conventional grooved barrel. Also I think a .219 may help some. Your not pinching the bullet more. Cleaning I agree also. I only have 130 rounds on the barrel. But I plan on cleaning every 100 to 140ish. I don’t want to fall behind on the carbon and copper build up on this caliber. You well just run into a lot of problems. I started my gain twist so slow. The bullet starts at just under 300k rpm and finishes at 330k rpm. Easier on the bullet jacket and should help with maybe some of the initial skidding of the bullet going into the lands. And the 5r helps with that also. I don’t have any experience with the 88eldm. And after what you said I’m not going to try them. The 95smk shoot great. Why would I change that.

 

[Birddog6424]

22 Dasher??

I don't have much desire to get into a Dasher. I want more horsepower optional.

I thought hard about a 22GT for a bit. But I have a 6 Creed, so I have all the dies and tons of brass to neck down. So for simplicity sake, I went 22 Creed.

And Hornady brass is cheap. I bought 250 pieces of 6 Creed for $110 with free shipping from Midway.

 

[Birddog6424]

oh yeah. I’ve blown up quite a few 95s and a ton of hornady eldm bullets. The eldm seem to have thinner jackets. If I push them over 3200 with a 6.5 twist the 95 can come apart, but with a 7 twist I was able to get them going 3300 before coming apart.

These bullets seem to have a sweet spot for accuracy going in the 3100-3120 range and it keeps RPMs lower. Also you need a 5R barrel pushing them at this rpm as it seems to cause less jacket issues compared to a 4 groove. I’ve run one at a 2 day before but I normally clean every 100-150 rounds.

View attachment 7401732

Great stuff. You answered some great questions.

Any input on barrel life?

 

[Dschapp44]

Great stuff. You answered some great questions.

Any input on barrel life?

First 22 creed. 7 twist made it 1400 rounds still shooting under 1/2 inch. Nodes definitely got narrow after 1k. It still shot fine but our season was over so pulled it.

Currently have a 22 creed 6.5 twist with 400 on it useing H1000 and have a 22 dasher 6.5 twist with 600 rounds on it using R23. Both have a freebore greater than .200 to run the slow powders but speeds are awesome.

using a bore scope both seem to show the same wear at the beginning of the chamber/ freebore area but the fire racking in the dasher is about twice the length. With that being saidI’ve found that fire cracking does mean less accuracy or that the barrel is close to the end of its life.

 

[Dschapp44]

Take a look at the JLK 90 grain bullet they are recoming our with. The G7 unpointed is supposed to be .298, so trying to be conservative if you pointed them and gained 5% in BC that puts you very close to the 95smk and only need a 7 twist for them. I’m planning to shoot them in a 7 twist 223AI as a trainer but should be in the conversation for these cartridges as well

 

[Birddog6424]

Take a look at the JLK 90 grain bullet they are recoming our with. The G7 unpointed is supposed to be .298, so trying to be conservative if you pointed them and gained 5% in BC that puts you very close to the 95smk and only need a 7 twist for them. I’m planning to shoot them in a 7 twist 223AI as a trainer but should be in the conversation for these cartridges as well

I have a 7 twist 223AI trainer. Its a fun caliber. But I rarely shoot anything over 80gr ELDMs.

I've gotten great accuracy out of 85.5gr Bergers and 88gr ELDMs. But there is a very large velocity sacrifice that doesn't play out very well.

I mostly use it with the bulk 75gr HPBT from Hornady. I buy those in 4k boxes and they are fantastic for <700 yard barricade training. Its a nice reduction in price per round.