22 LR Long Range Dispersion, What is the Culprit

[vaguru]

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out.

What do you attribute to lack of performance at longer range?

Ammo, barrel, conditions, shooter?

I have my opinion, but have heard others that make no sense.

 

[David Lott]

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out.

What do you attribute to lack of performance at longer range?

Ammo, barrel, conditions, shooter?

I have my opinion, but have heard others that make no sense.

assuming consistent ammo is used and shooter being able to repeat, Tune of rifle and wind direction/patterns will affect group size.

 

[Fig]

What is the dispersion; vertical, horizontal, all over the place? It matters quite a bit.
If you could post some targets it would be very helpful if you want a real answer.

 

[vaguru]

I have no targets. I personally have not shot past 108 yds. Shooting buddy claims the barrel is the culprit. His factory barrel "lost" it after 200 yds, his new custom barrel holds better groups at distance.

I know what his factory barrel could do at 50 and 100 yds, but not further. I don't believe barrel was the issue. Don't know if same ammo lot was used with both barrels, but I doubt it was. His claim of barrel being issue could just be due to the extra expense for the custom.

 

[vaguru]

assuming consistent ammo is used and shooter being able to repeat, Tune of rifle and wind direction/patterns will affect group size.

So....have you ever witnessed a half minute barrel at 100 yds shooting terrible with same ammo, same conditions, same shooter fall apart at distance?

 

[Csafisher]

So....have you ever witnessed a half minute barrel at 100 yds shooting terrible with same ammo, same conditions, same shooter fall apart at distance?

Half minute 22 barrel??? Where can I get one?

 

[Emerson0311]

Until you actually shoot out there, those of us that do feel like you are like a kindergarten student telling us your opinion of various mortgage options. You have your own opinion already, based on your own admission of zero experience, which means you won’t listen to our experience, just like you won’t listen to your buddy’s experience. In my experience, he is correct.

 

[45cal4life]

Taking the human factor out the equation: Vertical is typically bullet velocity and horizontal is wind. It is crazy how little of each can effect the bullet impact at distance. Greater the distance = Greater the impact

 

[acourvil]

1/2 MOA at 100 and MOA at 200 are outstanding if real. But the things that affect dis[ersion at distance are
Velocity variation
BC variation
Environmental factors
Shooter skill/consitancy

 

[grauhanen]

There is a non-linear increase in dispersion as distance increases, and this is very obvious in .22LR performance. In other words, rather than a linear increase in group size where group size doubles with distance, especially with .22 rimfire group sizes grow more and more as distance increases.

There are several causes. One is obvious and that is that as .22LR bullets slow down with distance, vertical dispersion increases more and more. To put it another way, it takes the .22LR bullet more than twice as long to get from 100 to 200 than it takes to go from 0 to 100. There's simply more time for bullets to be affected by the inexorable forces of gravity. MV variation serves to make group sizes worse than if rounds had very similar MVs.

The other primary cause is less obvious but no less important. Soft lead projectiles such as .22LR bullets (and airgun pellets) are very difficult to produce with a near perfect center of gravity. Cg imperfection contributes to group dispersion. Some lots -- indeed some rounds within lots -- have more or less perfect centers of gravity than others. The result is that some lots will have greater rates of dispersion due to Cg imperfection than others.

(Individual bores/chambers contribute to the Cg of the bullets that become obturated as they pass through them. This is one reason why some rifles/barrels shoot better at longer distance than others.)

Landy (HuskerP7M8) did a comparison of Lapua testing facility ten shot group results at both 50 and 100 meters and found that on average the dispersion rate between 50 and 100 meters was a factor of about 2.8 times. Some lots are better or worse than others. Same for some rifles/barrels.

 

[vaguru]

Until you actually shoot out there, those of us that do feel like you are like a kindergarten student telling us your opinion of various mortgage options. You have your own opinion already, based on your own admission of zero experience, which means you won’t listen to our experience, just like you won’t listen to your buddy’s experience. In my experience, he is correct.

Not saying I don't have long range experience just not with 22 LR. However I find it difficult to believe if both barrels shoot half minute to 100 yds, and one minute to 200 yds, that one barrel will shoot better at further distances than the other.

Now your post is stating that it is possible one barrel can perform better at distance while both display the same, or very similar, performance at closer range.
If this is so, how can it be explained?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Fig]

If that's the case, baring other factors, it's 100% marksman. Bullets don't go to sleep, or change trajectory without reason.
I recommend you read some books on ballistics to understand all the external forces that are acting on the bullet. Where precision ends accuracy and marksmanship begins.

I, personally, prefer Litz, because of his open source testing and use of control groups. His approach is that of a true scientist, and he is always willing to test theories for repeatability. But again, your perception is not the targets or data. It's almost impossible to help you based on your perspective and not the actual data of the impacts and chronograph of the speed of the projectiles (preferably correlated).

Amazon.com : bryan litz books

 

[vaguru]

There is a non-linear increase in dispersion as distance increases, and this is very obvious in .22LR performance. In other words, rather than a linear increase in group size where group size doubles with distance, especially with .22 rimfire group sizes grow more and more as distance increases.

There are several causes. One is obvious and that is that as .22LR bullets slow down with distance, vertical dispersion increases more and more. To put it another way, it takes the .22LR bullet more than twice as long to get from 100 to 200 than it takes to go from 0 to 100. There's simply more time for bullets to be affected by the inexorable forces of gravity. MV variation serves to make group sizes worse than if rounds had very similar MVs.

The other primary cause is less obvious but no less important. Soft lead projectiles such as .22LR bullets (and airgun pellets) are very difficult to produce with a near perfect center of gravity. Cg imperfection contributes to group dispersion. Some lots -- indeed some rounds within lots -- have more or less perfect centers of gravity than others. The result is that some lots will have greater rates of dispersion due to Cg imperfection than others.

(Individual bores/chambers contribute to the Cg of the bullets that become obturated as they pass through them. This is one reason why some rifles/barrels shoot better at longer distance than others.)

Landy (HuskerP7M8) did a comparison of Lapua testing facility ten shot group results at both 50 and 100 meters and found that on average the dispersion rate between 50 and 100 meters was a factor of about 2.8 times. Some lots are better or worse than others. Same for some rifles/barrels.

I understand the non linear dispersion. Your explanation of bores/chambers in parenthesis does really help explain the phenomenon.

Therefore, could be concluded that the factory barrel could have been chambered very slightly off center, not enough to affect cg at close range, but magnifies it's error well down range. I can understand that logic.

Thanks for your reply

 

[vaguru]

If that's the case, baring other factors, it's 100% marksman. Bullets don't go to sleep, or change trajectory without reason.
I recommend you read some books on ballistics to understand all the external forces that are acting on the bullet. Where precision ends accuracy and marksmanship begins.

I, personally, prefer Litz, because of his open source testing and use of control groups. His approach is that of a true scientist, and he is always willing to test theories for repeatability. But again, your perception is not the targets or data. It's almost impossible to help you based on your perspective and not the actual data of the impacts and chronograph of the speed of the projectiles (preferably correlated).

Amazon.com : bryan litz books

Thank you for that, I tend to agree.

 

[Emerson0311]

Not saying I don't have long range experience just not with 22 LR. However I find it difficult to believe if both barrels shoot half minute to 100 yds, and one minute to 200 yds, that one barrel will shoot better at further distances than the other.

Now your post is stating that it is possible one barrel can perform better at distance while both display the same, or very similar, performance at closer range.
If this is so, how can it be explained?

Thanks for your input.

I’m not a rocket scientist. I just looked at the holes in the paper.

 

[grauhanen]

With .22LR dispersion increases with distance in a non-linear way, meaning groups get worse and worse with distance until they are little more than patterns, not recognizable groups.

A ballistics calculator shows that at 100 yards each 10 fps difference between two rounds results in .25" of vertical. At 200 it's 1.0" of vertical dispersion. At 300 it's about 2.5". Double those figures for rounds with a 20 fps difference. Triple it for a 30 fps difference.

Center of gravity imperfection in the bullets exacerbates the problem of dispersion.

Add to the equation the ever-present problem of wind or air movement between shooter and target -- which is practically impossible to account for at long distances -- and even the best shooter will struggle to maintain groups out at 300 and beyond, no matter what rifle and ammo he's shooting. There are no fixes for it.

 

[MarkCZ]

The key to long range rimfire is AMMO, AMMO, AMMO. Ammo like CCI SV can shoot ok at 100 and 200yds, but you will see 2' of vertical at 300yds. better ammo will do better at long range. I like SK Long Range for matches, Eley Contact for everyday shooting.

 

[lash]

Frankly, I’m still struggling with the opening assumptions. By half MOA at 100 yards, do you mean roughly 1/2” groups? Similarly, by 1Moa at 200 yards, do you mean roughly 1” groups?

How many rounds in a group? And please show us some targets that show this to be true.

Then consider the relative distances of .22 LR versus centerfire. 200 yards with a subsonic .22 cartridge requires a hold around 7-8 mils or similar to 900-1000 yards in centerfire. Similarly, 300 yards with the .22 requires about 13-14 mils hold or more like 1300 to 1500 yards in centerfire.

Then consider that the subsonic .22 round is going somewhere around 760-770 fps at 300y and has a ghastly BC of .13-.14.

This should help you to understand what’s going on.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out

Frankly, I’m still struggling with the opening assumptions. By half MOA at 100 yards, do you mean roughly 1/2” groups? Similarly, by 1Moa at 200 yards, do you mean roughly 1” groups?

How many rounds in a group? And please show us some targets that show this to be true

I am with you lash, I want this rifle that repeatably groups 1/4” at 50 yards, 1/2” at 100 yards and roughly 2” at 200 yards (ASSUMING OP is using standard c-c measuring technique). I will never lose another match once I get one, and the un-named brand of ammo that produced these groups to begin with.

FFS, if high end rimfire ammo that did better than 25-40 ES per box and didn’t have ANY manufacturer defects in the bullet was available we could have this conversation. But this magical ammo has eluded me and my fellow competitors through several years of rf benchrest ARA and steel matches. All 22 ammo, even the high end match priced, suck. The higher priced tiers typically suck less, but I usually get 1-3 turds a box on even the good stuff.

 

[sinister]

There are a whole boat-load of variables when it comes to .22 Long Rifle at distances past 100 yards.

Just in the bullet, most have a generally tapered "Round nose" -- certainly not a Very Low Drag profile. Drag will decelerate the bullet from its initial muzzle velocity between 1100 and maybe 1250 feet per second -- and affect bullet flight as it decelerates through the trans-sonic zone.

Rimfire barrels are typically button-rifled. A cut-rifled barrel certainly has potential advantage over a buttoned or hammer-forged, but it's not guaranteed. Twist rate, like with centerfire bullets, may or may not affect dispersion (typically .22 rimfires seem to group well with slower twists).

 

[RTH1800]

It can only be wind, inconsistent bullets or inconsistent velocity.

 

[justin amateur]

The longer the range, the worse the spread.
The causes?

1) Atmospheric conditions - mirage, thermals
turbulence, gusts, wind direction shifts

2) Cartridge quality - symmetry, balance, uniformity of velocities
The greater time of flight allows cartridge issues to be magnified.

3) Setup - rifle/support system

4) Skill - includes wind judgement, rifle control

 

[RTH1800]

I like option 2.

 

[Trung Si Ma]

It can only be wind, inconsistent bullets or inconsistent velocity.

I am perfectly capable of being the inconsistency all by self, thank you very much.

I signed up for AB's WEZ program and want to run some .22LR examples from my DOPE just to see how much of it's me. I'm guessing 50%+

 

[RTH1800]

If you can shoot 1/2 moa at 50 yards you should be able to do the same at longer range other than the listed variables of gun, ammo and environment.
A half minute hold is a half minute hold.

 

[beetroot]

I could never get my factory Tikka to shoot a damn past 150yrds.
I tried all sort of things but I always ended up with more vertical dispersion than I thought was expected.

I think a combination of 16" barrel and my suppressor was giving me issue at distance, and ammo obviously.

I've recently rebarrelled the rifle to a 25.5" barrel, I've not done much testing on paper, other than a single 20 shot group of Eley Standard at 155yards that had 1.85" of vertical.
I never got anything close to that with my factory barrel.

 

[Emerson0311]

I could never get my factory Tikka to shoot a damn past 150yrds.
I tried all sort of things but I always ended up with more vertical dispersion than I thought was expected.

I think a combination of 16" barrel and my suppressor was giving me issue at distance, and ammo obviously.

I've recently rebarrelled the rifle to a 25.5" barrel, I've not done much testing on paper, other than a single 20 shot group of Eley Standard at 155yards that had 1.85" of vertical.
I never got anything close to that with my factory barrel.

My factory Tikka barrel was the same as yours. Groups at 200 were 6-8” tall and 2” wide. IBI barrel, groups are now round, gusty winds aside.

 

[beetroot]

My factory Tikka barrel was the same as yours. Groups at 200 were 6-8” tall and 2” wide. IBI barrel, groups are now round, gusty winds aside.

I had one particularly bad batch of ammo that shot 24" tall and about 6" wide at 300.

Was yours 16 or 20"?

 

[DFOOSKING]

.125 and similar b.c. is dogshit.

That's your cause.

 

[Emerson0311]

I had one particularly bad batch of ammo that shot 24" tall and about 6" wide at 300.

Was yours 16 or 20"?

20”. Ammo didn’t seem to make much difference.

 

[MarkCZ]

My T1X 20" does very well. I had it out today, with Tac22 ammo, out to 300yds. shooting some long gongs 8", 6", 4",and 3" start with the 8", if you miss you have to go back one target. I ran them a few times clean. 200yds 4", 3", 2",and 1". The 3" at 300 is tuff. The 1" is tuff also. I have more trouble with the 2" for some reason.

 

[lash]

My T1X 20" does very well. I had it out today, with Tac22 ammo, out to 300yds. shooting some long gongs

What is a long gong?

 

[LR1845]

What is a long gong?

Kinda like a long dong just different.

 

[MarkCZ]

The long Gong game is 300yds 8", 6" and 4" gongs. start with the 8" hit ( 1 point ) to move to the 6" (2 points) hit to move 4" (3 points). with 10 rounds. If you miss you move back one target. High score wins. I added the 3" for myself. I just run it 10 rounds to see how many hits I can get. Same setup for 200yds

 

[lash]

Ah, okay.

 

[vaguru]

The long Gong game is 300yds 8", 6" and 4" gongs. start with the 8" hit ( 1 point ) to move to the 6" (2 points) hit to move 4" (3 points). with 10 rounds. If you miss you move back one target. High score wins. I added the 3" for myself. I just run it 10 rounds to see how many hits I can get. Same setup for 200yds

So how consistent are the hits on the 4" at 300 yds?

 

[DFOOSKING]

The rules.....

 

[MarkCZ]

So how consistent are the hits on the 4" at 300 yds?

All depending on the wind conditions. The best I have done is a 21. I ran the 8", 6" and 6 hits in a row on the 4" when the wind did a 180 degree change, I missed on the next 2 shots. I can run about 60% hits on the 4" most time. Now the 3" is about 30%, I did hit 5 time in a row before the wind changed.

 

[Big Phish]

Last week I was doing well with a 6”@300. Today not so much mirage and some winds made it much more difficult. Can’t fault the rifle one bit but the ahole behind the rifle and same with others. It’s challenge which is why we do it.

 

[littlesister]

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out.

What do you attribute to lack of performance at longer range?

Ammo, barrel, conditions, shooter?

I have my opinion, but have heard others that make no sense.

What a lot of shooters on this forum don't seem to understand is that the 22 remfire was never intended to be accurate or even shot much past 50yds. It can be extremely accurate at 50 yds which has been proven in 50 yd unlimited benchrest competition but consistency starts to fall off as the range increases past 50 to the point there's no consistent accuracy at all. No mater what barrel, what twist rate or what shooter!

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out.

What do you attribute to lack of performance at longer range?

Ammo, barrel, conditions, shooter?

I have my opinion, but have heard others that make no sense.

 

[bulletbluesky]

A 22 LR rifle repeatedly groups half minute or better at 50 yds and 100 yds. Groups at 200 yds still acceptable MOA +/-, but past that patterns not groups, especially 300 yds and out.

What do you attribute to lack of performance at longer range?

Ammo, barrel, conditions, shooter?

I have my opinion, but have heard others that make no sense.

The most important enviromental factor is wind. But even in the case of zero wind, ideal and constant MV, there are phenomena in bullet flight (very difficult to control) that will eventually increase spread in terms of MOA. For example, you can't fight (given ammo), apperance of yawing and pitching amplitude in each shot. It's not exactly the same for each shot, and downrange it usually increases after 200-300 yard for most of the subsonic ammo.

 

[justin amateur]

Wind is annoying, no argument.
Raindrop size is a whole 'nother irritation.
Is rain considered a drift or an impact deflection?

 

[littlesister]

Wind is annoying, no argument.
Raindrop size is a whole 'nother irritation.
Is rain considered a drift or an impact deflection?

Wind is annoying, no argument.
Raindrop size is a whole 'nother irritation.s rain considered a drift or an impact deflection?

Wind is annoying, no argument.
Raindrop size is a whole 'nother irritation.
Is rain considered a drift or an impact deflection?

Actually neither. Rains drops have very little effect on bullets. It's the barometric pressure change. Low barometer, less dense the air. More bullet rise. High barometer. denser the air. More bullet drop. Bullets supposedly have a vortex around them when shot and never hit rain drops. Don't ask me how I know all this to be true, as I don't have a clue. I do know my guns are just as accurate shooting in a light rain as opposed to shooting on a sunny day. I think we've strayed from the OP. But still interesting!

 

[justin amateur]

For y'er perusal...

Effects of Rain on Bullet Trajectory - Guns and Ammo

Does shooting in the rain affect a bullet's trajectory?

www.gunsandammo.com

 

[Fig]

Wind is annoying, no argument.
Raindrop size is a whole 'nother irritation.
Is rain considered a drift or an impact deflection?

I've shot a few matches in the rain, both drizzle a deluge, and it didn't affect my dope AT ALL. While I agree that this doesn't seem logical or possible, I dialed like normal and got the same impacts. Maybe it's witchcraft.

edit: IMHO I would not take ANY advice or information from Guns and Ammo.

 

[justin amateur]

I don't send anything downrange when it's raining.
I have no experience with those conditions.
If it's raining, it's usually gusting and I put the rifle away to keep it dry.

If I'm chasing squirrels or rabbits on a drizzly morning,
the distance is less than 25 yards so effects are minimal.
Not enough to affect a head shot at that range

I still have to wonder what a big fat raindrop would do to a 17hm2 or hmr?

 

[Cody S]

my factory savage rimfire is grouping respectably but has drastically higher SD's than any custom barrel on the line. it absolutely throws me off after 200.
as to the rain comment, ime a big fat rain drop will throw you off several degrees, though it seems like even in heavy rain it's not a sure thing you'll hit one. my limited experience.
custom barrels are worth it imho.

 

[vaguru]

Ok folks here goes. I was able to beg some time at a range yesterday that goes to 400 yds. Weather was 90* F and wind was supposed to be no more than 5 mph, but they lied, was variable to about 10 mph. Radar map showed no rain for the day, more about that later.

Set up targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yds, with large white paper backer at 300 and 400 yds. 10 shots 100 yds to warm up barrel and check for conditions, then out to 200 yds. Groups at 200 not as good as last weeks, but still managed 2 5 shot groups that averaged 1 3/4", horizontal, wind and mirage going right left, but held elevation of 1/2".

So out to 300 yds I went. Wind now changing from right left to head wind to tail wind, 5-10 mph. I didn't expect much but waited for a similar condition and let it fly. As I was trying to determine 300 yd zero as my primary objective, I was more concerned with not shooting in head or tail winds. I was holding off 1 mil consistently for conditions, and determined my turret setting. Tried no groups due to the wind, but each string held elevation to 3-3 1/2" and windage would vary from 5-7". The conditions were worse than 200 yds, so now moving out to 400 had me wonder if it was worth trying.

At 400 yds, mirage was left right to start and then changed to right left consistently, running flat like a river. The wind settled down some and gained some cloud cover, so no bright sunlight. Again trying to determine sight settings, so not overly concerned with groups. Tried my first setting and was low about 12", so marked and tried again adding .4 mils. I was holding 1.8 mils windage, and first group that was not enough. Vertical was decent at 7 1/2" but horizontal went 10 1/2". Second try was to high by about 6 " and again held elevation of 7 1/2" and the horizontal was about 11". I marked them and went for 3rd try, down .2 mils.

It was very overcast now, and the wind had let up to about 3 mph, so I only held off .6 mils. I fired three shots, verified impact through spotting scope before all the heavens opened up. It poured for over half hour so hard you could not see the 100 yd target! I still had 7 rounds left for that test and unloaded and waited. I watched my target and backer at 400 get soaked and hoped it would stay put. When the rain let up it was near dead calm, nothing moving and could see the target was still there. I let the last 7 shots go quick as I could operate the bolt, and held dead center.

Those 7 shots were a group, 7 1/2" to be exact, 7 1/2" elevation and 5" horizontal, just 2" right of POA. Turret setting still needed up .1 mil for POI, but I was pleased with result. I pulled target and backer to let dry out in bed of my truck, and it started to rain again. No more shooting as it poured again for another 1/2 hour, and so hard couldn't load up the truck. And after a 10 minute break, that let me load the truck, poured again for the ride half way home.

So now I have determined that my rifle, ammo combo will do better than hoped, still looking for that unicorn lot however.

I don't think that 1.79 MOA at 400 yds is terrible. It appears that this combo will produce half minute +/- inside 200 yds, and 1 3/4 to 2 MOA out to 400 yds. I hope to get to try again under more consistent (near ideal) conditions if I'm able to be invited to that range again, but for now I'm satisfied.

 

[LR1845]

@vaguru Pics?

 

[vaguru]

@vaguru Pics?

Sorry no pics, didn't think about pics