22 trainer or 223 help!

[Devildog]

I’ve been looking to build a trainer and was looking hard at a Vudoo barreled action. I have a JAllen chassis I’m not using so it’s a simple deal to set up.

My delima is the more threads I read, the more it sounds like a lot of you spend a lot of time and effort chasing the right brand, even specific lot #’s of 22 ammo to get the groups your looking for.

I reload and don’t mind doing so, was thinking a 223 with a good load would keep me from questioning “ is it me or the ammo if I’m not shooting well.

Hope this makes some sense, I have a range out my back door were I can shoot out to 435 yards so I’m not limited to a local short range which would make a 22 a no brainer. I like the idea of a 22 but not sure chasing ammo is for me, or am I blowing this out of proportion?

 

[bmicek]

I would say you are slightly over thinking it. It partially depends on what your intended use is for a "trainer". Are you just wanting to send rounds downrange to practice proper technique from a bench? Are you wanting to practice positional shooting? The threads you read about guys chasing groups with the right brands/lots of 22 ammo is guys just splitting hairs. Yes, I know rifles can vary groups sizes even just between lots so I don't mean people are wasting their time doing ammo testing. Thats the first thing I do with each new rimfire. But I bet you would be pleasantly surprised with how much solid training you could get done with a Vudoo and some simple match ammo or heck, even just basic CCI SV. Sure you may not shoot literal single hole groups if you don't get nit picky with your ammo but it will provide excellent practice.

If you are wanting a trainer with a bit more felt recoil, 223 is a great option as well. Will also allow you to work up a load and be able to reach out further. If you don't mind reloading the ammo rather than just taking out a 50 round box of rimfire out of a stash, then the 223 may be the option for you. Really just comes down to personal preference honestly. OR just get both.

 

[Kadams1563]

I shoot 350 yards with my Vudoo but if I was shooting anytime out to 800 or so then .223 all the way.

My plan is eventually have a 6mm match rifle, .223 match rifle for club (shorter ranges), and a .22 for the hell of fun they are.

I already have a Vudoo and Impact 6.5 that I need to shoot the barrel out of to change to 6mm.

 

[SporterII]

223 can be far more versatile tool. Sierra 52 ad 69 MK"s simple to load. 50 ballistic tips great varminting. Short course game rifle. With the right reamer and 75 Amax can also be a primary rifle.

 

[bmicek]

I would say, if you do any varminting, ever plan to shoot more than 450yds, or would prefer to reload, go with the 223.

If you want simplicity of being able to buy up a few bricks of a 22lr’s preferred ammo to practice behind the house, roll with a 22lr.

 

[Hoser]

Training with a 22 inside 100 yards is an awesome tool. For close up stuff you don't need to chase the ultimate Rimfire accuracy with expensive ammo. Find a flavor of ammo that will give you around 1 MOA accuracy and run with it. You don't have to spend $25 a box to hit a 2-3 inch plate off sticks or a barricade at 100 yards.

Get some smaller mild steel targets, a decent suppressor and go to town.

You will be amazed how much you will learn about follow through. 3,000 fps vs 1,050 fps is a huge difference.

But mostly, shooting rimfires is fun.

 

[steve123]

Inferring to the distances the OP is mentioning.

I already had a few nice 22's and would shoot them at extreme ranges for the fun of it but the vertical can be horrible at those distances, even with match ammo and even in normal winds I would be lucky to hit because of subtle changes in wind.

At the same time, with my 223, there wasn't much challenge. Though I never investigated light loads with pistol powder or trail boss which might be something you could try.

I ended up with a 20-221 fireball, a light load with low BC 32 grainers was about right and cheap to shoot using only 17 grains of powder. That little CZ 527 custom is one of my favorite rifles to shoot and very accurate, but at the same time challenging just enough in the wind to be interesting! By 550Y this little dink is petering out so that's about where I stop.

 

[ingraham]

I have a trainer in both 22LR and 223Rem. My reason for the 22LR, I live a couple minutes away from my range and can shoot 250yds there. Its not the same as going to 1k but shooting small targets at that distance with the 22 gives you good practice reading the wind, and I can shoot nearly everyday with out having to travel. As mentioned before the price for 22LR is still pretty reasonable. I dont run super expensive match 22 ammo, my rifle shoots CCI standard very well.

The reason I run a 223 bolt gun as well, its cheap to shoot and its good to go out to 600yds (provided its not too windy). I live in an area that gets tons of snow every winter, and as much as I like shooting AR's, I dont like loosing Lapua brass in the surrounding snow drifts. So thats not a problem with a bolt gun.

For the record, I dont compete currently, I just enjoy shooting long range. Both the 22LR and the 223Rem allow me to practice more than if I shot only 308Win or larger rifles. I agree equipment and gear is important to a point, but getting out and practicing is critical and the trainers make it easier for me to do that.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Both. I shoot the 22 out the front door of my Tavern out to 100 and 223 in the back yard out to 800. Lots of positional practice with the 22, we shoot 50 rounds twice a week after work. My 22 targets stay up in the front yard year round. I use cci sv almost 100% of the time. Made this to practice off of. Throw it in the back of the truck to take to a friends where we shoot out of his shop

 

[Devildog]

All helpful reply’s, although I don’t mind reloading the thought of just grabbing some box ammo to go shoot sounds really good. Most of my rifles can shoot better then me most days so 1/2 to 1 MOA is fine. My goal is to work more on positional shooting, and fundamentals. Being able to shoot 100 rounds or more a week would do me a lot of good. Thanks for helping me clear this up in my head, sometimes my OCD goes into overdrive especially when it comes to shooting. Thanks guys!

 

[flatland1]

Sounds like you're going with the V-22 - great choice! I remember seeing an ad from EuroOptic several years ago for the "Ultimate Trainer" or whatever they were calling it. Based on a Stiller 2500XR action, Bartlein bbl, Manners T4A stock, their pricing was well over $4k - I loved the concept, but choked on the price. Now, after building my own version of their trainer on a Stiller, and having jelrod convert both the CMP 40X/XB rifles I had into repeaters, I've got V-22s, and am always looking for the time to get one or more of them out to do some shooting. Whether it's at 50, 100, 200, or 300yds, I'm getting a lot more trigger time in with a lot less time spent reloading (lol - know of anyone who reloads 22RF?). I can put any number of rounds through one of the 22s, and it still takes only a couple of wet patches followed by a dry one, a few shots of compressed air into the action to blow out any remaining RF crud, and the rifle's put in the safe, ready to go next time. And there's no worries when it comes to wearing out a barrel - these rifles will still be shooting with excellent accuracy long after I'm gone.

I can be as picky as the next guy when it comes to accuracy, and to begin with, I was very curious about accuracy, spending lots of time testing different lots of various 22RF ammo to see what was possible in custom bbls. And I'm still a believer in lot testing, for sure when you're going to be shooting out past 100yds. But get a few boxes or bricks of SK Pistol Match (not Pistol Match Special), shoot some of it, and you're probably going to be happy with it. No, it's not my choice for out past 100yds, and a select lot of SK Rifle Match will out-shoot it at both 50 & 100, but I had to test about a dozen lots of RM before finding that one special lot that I bought in quantity, while four out of six test lots of PM shot so well there was little to choose between them. And when I started to run low on the case of PM I'd bought, I ordered in another half case of whatever lot# Grafs had in stock, and got ammo that shoots purtnear as good as the select lot I'd bought before. To top it off, Pistol Match is around a buck a box cheaper than Rifle Match...

The folks at Vudoo Gun Works are top-notch when it comes to customer satisfaction & making a quality product. I would wager that if you go that route, you'll never regret it.

 

[teerex]

I have both, and both have their purposes. The V-22 has the same feel as my centerfire rifle and lets me shoot more and the range and play on props more while getting some trigger time. I'm not shooting my Vudoo for BR groups so I don't overly worry about lots and stuff like that. The 223 is pretty capable in its own right. a 75 class bullet running close to 3000 doesn't give up much at local matches especially when they only go out to 800 or so.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Training is not about shooting perfection during the training session. It is about finding the current level of proficiency, altering the process a facet at a time to see how the proficiency changes, then putting the process back together so the proficiency has improved.

The same process can be used to identify when the facet(s) is/are faulty, then remedying it/them until proficiency returns.

Nowhere in this process is exquisite accuracy required. All that is needed is a performance that can be reliably tied to deficiency and/or improvement. It doesn't matter whether the average group is 1/2" or 2", as long as it shrinks with improvement, and grows with less diligence.

There is a trend toward thinking that only perfect equipment leads to perfect practice. This is both excessive and unnecessary. We use a trainer to relieve the 'working' rifle from the large volume of training fire, prolonging its useful lifespan.

Now as far as switching from .22LR to .223 for training goes, I think that's a sound concept; and that's what I've done myself. This allows me to establish and maintain ammunition as one of the constant facets of the process. No extraordinary handloading steps, just due diligence and as reasonable consistency as I can manage. Playing ammunition roulette departs the process, and issues like subsonic transition early in the trajectory likewise goes away.

I only ever built one gun, and it was an LR F Open rifle. I don't think a complex, refined rifle is needed; just one that's workmanlike and reliable. Heavy barrels, costly optics, thrilling ergonomics are all nice, but not really needed. Shoot it a lot, learn all its quirks, make them work in your favor, and apply what you learn to the 'Money Gun".

K.I.S.S!

Greg

 

[MarkCZ]

I’ve been looking to build a trainer and was looking hard at a Vudoo barreled action. I have a JAllen chassis I’m not using so it’s a simple deal to set up.

My delima is the more threads I read, the more it sounds like a lot of you spend a lot of time and effort chasing the right brand, even specific lot #’s of 22 ammo to get the groups your looking for.

I reload and don’t mind doing so, was thinking a 223 with a good load would keep me from questioning “ is it me or the ammo if I’m not shooting well.

Hope this makes some sense, I have a range out my back door were I can shoot out to 435 yards so I’m not limited to a local short range which would make a 22 a no brainer. I like the idea of a 22 but not sure chasing ammo is for me, or am I blowing this out of proportion?

My back ground is long range centerfire Benchrest, Egg Shoots, and steel matches. I got into long range rimfire, because it is fun. I have a 150 yds range close to my house. I have a Kidd Supergrade, CZ 455 Varmint, and a Tikka T1x. My guns are not trainers, just guns to shoot. Rimfire is it's on beast, it is just what it is, it can run you crazy sometimes. If you are just looking for a trainer, and are not going to shoot rimfire matches. go with the 223. You can buy a M 700 varmint in 223 is a lot cheaper than a Vudoo. If think you want get into long range rimfire matches, get the Vudoo.
You can get something like a CZ Varmint Pes. Trainer for $800, that do very well and want break the bank.

Mark

 

[Devildog]

There is a trend toward thinking that only perfect equipment leads to perfect practice. This is both excessive and unnecessary. We use a trainer to relieve the 'working' rifle from the large volume of training fire, prolonging its useful lifespan.

I agree with you, but for me I want my trainer to be as close to my go to rifle as possible, same stock, trigger, exc. I think it helps create some continuity which is important to me maybe not so much to others. That’s the biggest reason why I was thinking 223 or a Vudoo. Originally I was looking at the cz 455 trainer because two of my other rifles have T4 stocks also. But last year I picked up a new Foundation stock and love it. I spoke with the owner at Foundation and he told me they were working on a stock for the Vudoo action. Hopefully they’ll be ready in the near future and I’ll have a JAllen for sale.

I’ll probably move my razor to the trainer as well and that means a new scope for my Creedmoor and the beat goes on. Which leads me to what scope to buy lol, lots of great choices right now. It’s just money, right?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I understand, and this is truly your choice to make.

I'd like to see you both enjoy and benefit from that choice. The thinking parallels mine from many years back. I'd just like you to have the advantage of considering an alternative approach.

Best fortune.

Greg

 

[Eoddave27]

I built both. I put both of them in MDT chassis. What I found was I shot the 22 a whole lot more than my 223. To shoot 223 I had to load all my ammo and I was always thinking about how many rounds I had and time Involved to load more. I ended up just using my match rifle to train because it really wasn’t that much more to load and involved the same amount of time. Primarily when I practice for long range I like to shoot in the wind. If I’m training in the wind I want to use the same round I’m using for competitions. For my 22 it is not unusual for me to go out and shoot 200 rounds and think nothing of it. It is cheap and fun. In the end I sold my 223 trainer to buy better glass for my 22 trainer. I don’t miss my 223 at all.

 

[Devildog]

Alright I ordered and received my V-22 with a 20” mtu barrel. I picked up a diamond trigger and shes mounted up in a JAllen chassis. Still trying to figure out which optic to roll with, I’m leaning towards a 7x35 atacr with the mill-c reticle or another razor to match my main rig. If you’d of ask me years ago if I’d spend this kind of coin on a 22 I’d of told you your crazy. But honestly I’m pretty stoked. I think it’ll be a sh!t ton of fun!

 

[Eoddave27]

Alright I ordered and received my V-22 with a 20” mtu barrel. I picked up a diamond trigger and shes mounted up in a JAllen chassis. Still trying to figure out which optic to roll with, I’m leaning towards a 7x35 atacr with the mill-c reticle or another razor to match my main rig. If you’d of ask me years ago if I’d spend this kind of coin on a 22 I’d of told you your crazy. But honestly I’m pretty stoked. I think it’ll be a sh!t ton of fun!

It absolutely is a ton of fun. As much as I love shooting my centerfire rifles and PRS matches I have more fun shooting my 22lr and NRL22 matches. The NRL 22 matches are the most fun I have ever had at a gun match. On top of that I can actually afford to go out and shoot all day with a 22. I have a lot of money invested in my 22 also but given it is the rifle I actually use the most it made sense to me to do so.

For your optic I see the advantage of having the same reticle but keep in mind that you will be using the rifle inside 400 yards and inside 300 the most. I guess my point is getting the best glass for it really isn’t necessary. I put a Tract Toric on mine which is the same optic I have on my PRS rifle and love it. I have never missed a shot because my glass was not up to the task. I would think a Vortex Viper PST gen 2 with the same reticle as your Razor would be a fantastic optic and you could spend the money you save on a case of quality ammo.

 

[Banango]

I use both 223 and 22lr I just use aguila standard velocity and use appropriate sized targets for what 5he 22lr ammo is capable of

 

[Devildog]

not the best pic but here it is!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here are the match/training rifles I own with their respective purpose:

Vudoo 22: almosr idential to my AI. For ultra cheap practice ammo. Similar to dry fire, but with some feedback.

AI with .308: mainly to induce more recoil to show me deficiencies in my setup. Be it positional or prone. If the rifle is hopping left or right, there’s a problem I need to address. Also helps with wind when shooting out to distance

AI with 6creed (soon to be 6.5): match rifle


I have no real need for a .223 as the .22 gives me cheap ammo and the .308 gives me recoil to practice with.

Just my personal preference.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, to give an example, the practice routine I have outlined tomorrow has 540 dry fires and only 30 live rounds.

 

[Devildog]

I watched an interesting video this weekend the guy compared the ballistics of his 22 @ 300 yards to his 308 at a 1000 and according to his ballistic calculator his 308 at 1k was 12 something mills and his 22 at 300 was 12 something mills. I found that very interesting, I haven’t done any calculations of my own but I will be to verify his claims.

I’ve shot many a 22 but mostly for hunting and plinking. I’m excited to see how much practicing with this new vudoo rig will help me in my overall shooting skills. But mostly I’m looking to just have fun!

 

[chavezz556]

Back when I used to shoot F class.. it was always these two guys who also shot nothing but smallbore for practice would always win.. and I mean it wasn't even close.. and they didn't beat people with fancy equipment either..

Don't forget if you have kids... 22lr+suppressor+steel=Fun for the whole family

 

[palmettoman]

Congrats on your purchase. Great looking rig.

I love shooting my .22 as much as my main rifles. They are each setup in a similar chassis with similar glass. My closest range is limited to 200 yards and I find shooting the 22 gives me great training at reading wind. Smallbore F-class shoots are alot of fun also.

 

[flatland1]

My first precision 22RF repeater taught me a bit about consistency and follow through, but I also had a lot of fun with it, including testing different ammo in a search for consistent accuracy at the lowest possible cost. I liked shooting that Stiller so much that having the 40Xs converted into repeaters was just so logical.... However, after shooting very accurate rifles with good ammo for a bit, I found that to get more value out of the time spent shooting, I needed to work on making some simple props to help me learn to deal with some of the less conventional/more contorted positions you find yourself in during matches. Blood pressure/pulse-beat is a big issue for me in some of these weird, contorted positions, and learning to deal with that doesn't require shooting a CF rifle. I feel I get more feedback & enjoyment out of shooting with my .22RF rifles than I would with a 223 or any other CF rig. To shoot with a 223 or larger CF ctdg, I need to load shooting gear in the truck and drive a couple of miles over some rough trails to my range. That's gotten to be a drag over the years - so much so that I've often found myself reluctant to go to the trouble after a day of routine farm work. But with the .22s, I need only grab a couple of boxes of ammo, one of the rifles, and whatever I feel like using for targets, then drive less than a quarter mile to set up & shoot. I keep a shooting mat & wedge bags in the truck, along with spray paint for steel & pastes for paper targets. The more stuff that's always there, ready to go, the less time & effort it takes to go shoot, and less chance that I'll just say to heck with it & give up shooting on any given day. Even without a suppressor, std vel match .22RF ammo out of 22" bbls doesn't disturb anyone, and it's less fatiguing to shoot rifles with very mild report & recoil, especially when you're already a bit tired from a day of work. Put simply - having a .22RF rifle that's enjoyable to shoot is often the difference between shooting or not shooting at the end of the day...and the .22s make it seem more like fun & less like just something else I'm obligated to do.