223 Hornady 75gr ELD Match: better than 175 SMK 308?!

[Kevin1]

I’m really impressed with the Hornady 75gr ELD Match.
I’m shooting a factory Savage heavy 26” barrel 1:9 twist in B&C Medalist with CDI bottom metal.
New Lapua brass, 24.4 gr of Varget and a muzzle velocity of 3070 FPS.
I shot 2 five shot groups at 100 Yards to confirm/ adjust zero (.319” and .317”); then shot 2 groups at 300Y.
After that I shot steel. It’s as good as my 308 load (175 SMK MV of 2700 FPS in AIAT factory 24” barrel). With both, I can hit steel consistently at up to 800 yards.

At this point, I can’t really justify shooting the 308. To me it seems the 75 ELD has similar performance than the 175 SMK (maybe even superior).
Going forward I’ll probably only shoot the 75g ELD and use the AIAT only in a 260 rem configuration.
Now that I’ve discovered this bullet, I’m not sure I have any use for a 308!



At 1000Y with a 5mph wind this is what I get:


175 SMK MV2700 fps:

Wind drift 1.73 mrad
Drop 10.59 mrad
Energy 578 ft-lbs


75 eld 75 gr MV 3070 FPS:

Wind drift 1.28 mrad
Drp 8.02 Mrad
Energy 313 ft-lbs


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[cruze5]

thanks for posting. i'll have to look for these projectiles locally.. i have two 223 rifles that i am struggling to find a good reload for

 

[CharlieNC]

I just stocked up on 1000 of the 75 Amax to shoot, they run great out to 1000yd for me. Hearing the eld is a bit sleeker, they will be on the load development block later this year. With excellent vertical dispersion, the wind is a bit more challenging than the 308 but much more fun to shoot all day long. Gotta love the 223.

 

[Servo93]

I've got a 223 with a pile of 75 Amaxs and varget waiting on me to develop a very similar load to Kevin's.
Right now I have 77 Nosler CCs over 23.6 grs of IMR 8208XBR, a light load, doing 2900 fps. This shows some good promise for when I will be screaming a 75 amax out of it.
I know the first time I crunched the numbers on a 75 a max going that fast I was impressed. Now my 308 AT barrel will still be used because I feel it's a better cartridge for training recoil management in odd positions, but as a fun gun the 223 is hard to beat.

 

[Rob01]

The 75 ELD-M is a very good bullet. Just got a load worked up for my .223 with it. 24.6grns of Varget or 25grns of CFE223 work great. They can do well at longer range but with less energy and a little more wind movement than the .308. If you are happy with the way they perform then keep on shooting them. If you want to try and get some more performance from the .308 try the 178 ELD-M.
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-178-gr-ELD-Match/

 

[Kevin1]

I compared the performance in my ballistic app (Ballistic AE).

At 1000Y with a 5mph wind this is what I get:


175 SMK MV2700 fps:

Wind drift 1.73 mrad
Drop 10.59 mrad
Energy 578 ft-lbs


75 eld 75 gr MV 3070 FPS:

Wind drift 1.28 mrad
Drp 8.02 Mrad
Energy 313 ft-lbs



That ELD has definitely better ballistics at long range than the 175 SMK. What a surprise!
Yes, the 308 has more energy, but at 800Y I had no trouble spotting my hits with the 75 ELD.

I guess the only real benefit of the 308 is practice for recoil management, as mentioned in a post above.

 

[padom]

Get rid of those 175smk and shoot the 178 ELD-M over IMR4064 and you will get better performance from that 308. .505BC vs .547BC. I was getting 9.6mil to 1000 with 2720fps out of a 24" 5R and 2.3mil in 10mph wind. I shot 175smk and H4895 and Varget and they were very accurate but 4064 and 178 Amax then 178 ELDM was the ticket.

 

[coldboremiracle]

I've been doing the same thing for a while now, I shoot 80 grain SMK's at 2880 from my 22" 223 barrel, it spanks the 308 all day. Good way to shoot well for cheap.

 

[bkw1911]

Same here. 21" suppressed Ackley version with 25.8gr of varget at the same speed you're getting. Shoots wonderfully. Previously shot the 80gr amax on a 22" barrel at 2900fps for club matches before they allowed smaller than 6mm at bigger matches. It's cheap and there's no recoil. With the suppressor, it's like shooting a 22 or a pellet gun.

I am kind of surprised you're getting the groups you are with the 9 twist though.

 

[BoilerUP]

That velocity is 100fps faster than I saw from 24.5gr Varget under a 75gr Amax from a 26" 1:9 Savage barrel...but hey, if it verifies, that's awesome!

 

[Kevin1]

Well...I did chrno the load with a Magnetospeed a few month ago. It was cloudy with a temperature of 65F. I got an average 2970 FPS. Yesterday it was 82F and, even though I tried to avoid it, the ammo got some direct sun. I didn't measure the speed. But to get right DOP at 300Y to 800Y, I had to put a MV of 3070 FPS in the Ballistic app.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The Hornady site shows the 178 ELD-Match G1 BC as .547 while it shows the 178 ELD-X as .552. At Mach 1.75, the difference (G7) opens up to .254 vs .271, and just keeps getting better further out.

My point is to ask why we are even bothering to shoot the Match version, when the ELD-X has a better BC and also incorporates state of the art terminal performance?

Greg

 

[pineoak]

IME, .223 guns seem to prefer either the 75 Hornady or the 77 SMK, with one usually performing significantly better than the other.

If you haven't tried them already, the Federal GMM & the DTAC loaded .223 in 77 SMK are worth trying if you haven't already.

Where the .308 really shines in comparison is when the wind kicks up.

 

[JSTARSZ]

The 308 also shines in how loud it hits the steel. I shoot 223 out to 900 yards quite often and it has a little ting...if the wind is shifting away from you sometimes it's hard to hear whereas the 308 still has a solid ring at 900 yards. I have been looking at getting some 75 ELD-M but I have so many 77 Sierra's it will be some time before I get there.

 

[BallisticPrimate]

I'm waiting for a bunch for the 75 eldm's to arrive. Any guesses as to what velocity I'll be able to get from a 20inch 8 twist tikka. I have varget and H4895 on hand

 

[Juggerxxx]

I'm waiting for a bunch for the 75 eldm's to arrive. Any guesses as to what velocity I'll be able to get from a 20inch 8 twist tikka. I have varget and H4895 on hand

i was able to get 2900 from Varget and H4895 in a Tikka 24". So maybe 2750-2800 in a 20"? I used BR4 and Lapua brass and didn't see pressure signs in H4895 until almost 3000fps In my Tikka. I hit 3000fps with Varget as well and never saw pressure signs but it was a hell of a compressed load that I didn't like and the accuracy sucked.

 

[BallisticPrimate]

i was able to get 2900 from Varget and H4895 in a Tikka 24". So maybe 2750-2800 in a 20"? I used BR4 and Lapua brass and didn't see pressure signs in H4895 until almost 3000fps In my Tikka. I hit 3000fps with Varget as well and never saw pressure signs but it was a hell of a compressed load that I didn't like and the accuracy sucked.

Thanks, 2750-2800fps is what I figured too.

 

[Jimmy31593]

I had a 223ai bolt gun that shot awesome. 20". Shot 75 amax with 2000mr. With lapua brass I was getting 3100fps. Scudzuki has the gun now, he loves it.

Probably the only gun I regret selling and I've sold a ton of guns.

 

[pineoak]

The 308 also shines in how loud it hits the steel. I shoot 223 out to 900 yards quite often and it has a little ting...if the wind is shifting away from you sometimes it's hard to hear whereas the 308 still has a solid ring at 900 yards. I have been looking at getting some 75 ELD-M but I have so many 77 Sierra's it will be some time before I get there.

+1
your gun will likely prefer one or the other; the 77 Sierras are very very good

 

[Kevin1]

Those commenting about the impact on steel and wind at long range….I bet you haven’t tried the 75 ELD and you’re basing your experience on 77 SMK.

The 75 ELD M is a head and shoulder above the 77SMK. It’s like you’re shooting a different caliber. I ran some numbers at 1000Y with 10 mph wind


75 eld 75 gr MV 3070 FPS:

Wind drift 2.50 mrad
Drop 8.02 Mrad
Energy 313 ft-lbs



77 SMK MV 3070 FPS: Note (the bullet is subsonic at around 930Y)

Wind drift 3.86 mrad
Drop 10.76
Energy 191 ft-lbs

 

[scudzuki]

I have a 20" Bartlein in 9 twist chambered .223 AI on a TL2 action.
Had some trouble feeding the 75 AMAX, so I tried some Hornady 75 BTHP match bullets I had sitting around, ended up at 26.2 of Varget with an MV of 2975. It's ridiculously easy to shoot and equally accurate (out to 700, the farthest available locally) with 5.1 Mil elevation, but it doesn't have much energy at that range. I struggle to hear it ring at that range. Next match I run I'll be shooting it rather than a 2013 AX308 (chambered 6.5 CM) and I'm sure my shoulder will appreciate the 6 lb. weight savings. I just hope the spotter sees/hears the impacts.

 

[bkw1911]

I have a 20" Bartlein in 9 twist chambered .223 AI on a TL2 action.
Had some trouble feeding the 75 AMAX, so I tried some Hornady 75 BTHP match bullets I had sitting around, ended up at 26.2 of Varget with an MV of 2975. It's ridiculously easy to shoot and equally accurate (out to 700, the farthest available locally) with 5.1 Mil elevation, but it doesn't have much energy at that range. I struggle to hear it ring at that range. Next match I run I'll be shooting it rather than a 2013 AX308 (chambered 6.5 CM) and I'm sure my shoulder will appreciate the 6 lb. weight savings. I just hope the spotter sees/hears the impacts.

Feeding? Whats the setup like? I've never had any feeding issues on a 700 or T3 with a 223AI and using AICS magazines (AI brand and Accurate). Is the throat too short to load around 2.500"?

 

[Kevin1]

Same here. 21" suppressed Ackley version with 25.8gr of varget at the same speed you're getting. Shoots wonderfully. Previously shot the 80gr amax on a 22" barrel at 2900fps for club matches before they allowed smaller than 6mm at bigger matches. It's cheap and there's no recoil. With the suppressor, it's like shooting a 22 or a pellet gun.

I am kind of surprised you're getting the groups you are with the 9 twist though.

The 75 ELD box says 1-7 twist.
Before starting to load the 75 ELD, I did some testing with factory match ammo loaded with 77SMK bullets and the rifle would stabilize and group well. I'm also able to get under 1 moa groups with my regular AR 1:7 twist with AE 50gr tipped varmint. I'm kinda thinking this whole twist rate is overrated.

 

[Juggerxxx]

The 75 ELD box says 1-7 twist.
Before starting to load the 75 ELD, I did some testing with factory match ammo loaded with 77SMK bullets and the rifle would stabilize and group well. I'm also able to get under 1 moa groups with my regular AR 1:7 twist with AE 50gr tipped varmint. I'm kinda thinking this whole twist rate is overrated.

I agree to a certain point. I also think they put big buffers on the top and bottom of the range.

 

[bkw1911]

I agree to a certain point. I also think they put big buffers on the top and bottom of the range.

Right. And there is also a difference between 77s and 75s that are short and designed for the ar platforms, vs the very long 75 amax and elds. I had a 9 twist CZ that could shoot the 75 bthps, but it would not shoot the 75 amax for instance. I run an 8 twist for the 75 amax and eld for reference. I understand not trusting 100% what the box says.

 

[scudzuki]

Feeding? Whats the setup like? I've never had any feeding issues on a 700 or T3 with a 223AI and using AICS magazines (AI brand and Accurate). Is the throat too short to load around 2.500"?

I bought the barreled action from a friend. I forget what COL he loaded the 75 AMAX to, but he included some of his reloads in the deal, and what I recall is the tip of the bullet would contact the roof of the chamber which held the cartridge down enough that the case mouth would catch on the lead in to the chamber. If I backed the bolt off a tiny bit the case would clear the feed lips, pop up a little, and I could chamber the round. It's possible the inlet in his stock was a little deeper than mine, which would have flattened the angle the round entered the chamber at, clearing the case mouth lip. Since I had a bunch of 75 HPMT Match, I switched to them and the feeding issue went away. Running Accurate mags.

 

[Juggerxxx]

I just posted this in a reloading threaded and thought it was interesting so I would post it here as well. This is a comparison for two hand loads I have worked up for my two rifles. One is the 140gr ELD and the other is the 75gr ELD as a comparison. The 75gr ELD did very well at 1000 yards this weekend.

 

[700smooth]

Following kinda curious on this

 

[ICU22250]

I'm getting ready to start some loading myself for my new T3x varmint 223, just got the Kahles mounted and finishing up a few things and I'll be ready to get rolling.. I'm interested as well in the 75 ELD's for my rifle as well as 77's...

 

[BallisticPrimate]

Tag

 

[Conrad]

Throw up the drift comparison.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Throw up the drift comparison.

fair enough. 15mph 90 degree

 

[BoilerUP]

Drift was noted in post #6.

 

[308220]

Out of so many better bullet options now for the 308, why would anybody still shoot the 175 SMK? Especially people going for long range performance.

 

[Kevin1]

Out of so many better bullet options now for the 308, why would anybody still shoot the 175 SMK? Especially people going for long range performance.

Maybe it's because they already have a few thousands bullets....I'm thinking to use those 175 SMK for shooting paper at 200 and 300Y and hit some steel at closer range. Truth be told, I didn't know there are bullets in the same price range that are so much better than the 175 SMK.

 

[BoilerUP]

The 168gr ELD-M is cheaper than the 175 SMK, has a higher Litz G7, and can be driven faster.

 

[Kevin1]

So the 175smk is basically obsolete?

 

[TheOE800]

Just for the record and my own confusion, this is a .223 Remington load for the 75gr ELD that you're moving at ~3K, NOT 223 Ackley?

 

[308pirate]

So the 175smk is basically obsolete?

It's rapidly becoming so, IMO. The Nolser 175 RDF and various Hornady 168 and 178 ELD types have all left the old Sierra in the dust.

 

[Kevin1]

Just for the record and my own confusion, this is a .223 Remington load for the 75gr ELD that you're moving at ~3K, NOT 223 Ackley?

Yes. Standard 223 chamber with Lapua brass.

 

[308220]

Maybe it's because they already have a few thousands bullets....I'm thinking to use those 175 SMK for shooting paper at 200 and 300Y and hit some steel at closer range. Truth be told, I didn't know there are bullets in the same price range that are so much better than the 175 SMK.

How hard did you look? Any premium Hornady 308 bullet outperforms the 175 SMK. At a cheaper price too. If youre mostly concerned with shooting 200-300 yards, get a 223. That is even cheaper.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Yes. Standard 223 chamber with Lapua brass.

Sounds very reasonable to me since you have a 26" barrel. Im getting 2900fps with the same 24.4gr of Varget out of a 24" barrel. I was able to hit 3000fps with no pressure signs but I did not like the accuracy or deviations in speed.

 

[Xander3Zero]

Sounds very reasonable to me since you have a 26" barrel. Im getting 2900fps with the same 24.4gr of Varget out of a 24" barrel. I was able to hit 3000fps with no pressure signs but I did not like the accuracy or deviations in speed.

Curious what OAL you guys have been loading to with the 75gr ELD-M? Is the reloading data pretty much carried over from the 75gr A-Max? I have a custom 223 being built right now, and am trying to figure out what I will be loading for it.

I have a lyman manual that suggests 2.390" OAL, wondering if this would be a good starting place.

I am also considering trying out the 77gr TMK, anyone have any comparisons or opinions on which of these two would be better? My 223 will have a 20" bartlein with a 1-7.7 twist.

 

[BurnOut]

As long as energy on target isn't a consideration, it looks like there's no reason NOT to go with the .223 running the ELD-M projectile.

 

[308pirate]

Where the .308 really shines in comparison is when the wind kicks up.

Gross conceptual error

 

[308pirate]

The 168gr ELD-M is cheaper than the 175 SMK, has a higher Litz G7, and can be driven faster.

And the Nosler 175 RDF leaves the 175 SMK in the dust, MV being equal between the two.

 

[Kevin1]

Curious what OAL you guys have been loading to with the 75gr ELD-M? Is the reloading data pretty much carried over from the 75gr A-Max? I have a custom 223 being built right now, and am trying to figure out what I will be loading for it.

I have a lyman manual that suggests 2.390" OAL, wondering if this would be a good starting place.

I am also considering trying out the 77gr TMK, anyone have any comparisons or opinions on which of these two would be better? My 223 will have a 20" bartlein with a 1-7.7 twist.

2.390" seems to be a good start. It's best that measure the throat though.
I load mine at 2.420". With that OAL I get a bullet jump of 0.01"

 

[lennyo3034]

Any particular reason to go with the 75 ELD over the 80 ELD?

 

[Xander3Zero]

Any particular reason to go with the 75 ELD over the 80 ELD?

I would think the 80's would require a generous increase in OAL over the 75's, maybe enough to make it difficult to fit them in a AI magazine even with some modifications? Of course you will be able to get higher velocities with the 75 as well, and the 80gr would require a faster twist.

 

[Sogan]

Very interested in this as well, especially since I just priced out the 75 ELD compared to the 77 TMK and noted a $9 difference per 100. Looks like most of you guys are having good results with the 75 ELD, lapua brass and Varget correct? Would you get similar results with LC brass or is the savings in brass not worth it?