223 Hornady 75gr ELD Match: better than 175 SMK 308?!

#51
Sogan said:
Very interested in this as well, especially since I just priced out the 75 ELD compared to the 77 TMK and noted a $9 difference per 100. Looks like most of you guys are having good results with the 75 ELD, lapua brass and Varget correct? Would you get similar results with LC brass or is the savings in brass not worth it?
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I have Lapua .223 brass closing in on 30 firings. Cost me $50/100 when I bought it. Cost per round over the life of the brass is 1.7 cents and that is if I stopped at 30 firings. The way I see it is I will always choose to shoot Lapua brass if it costs me less than 2 cents a shot.
 
#52
Mordamer said:
I have Lapua .223 brass closing in on 30 firings. Cost me $50/100 when I bought it. Cost per round over the life of the brass is 1.7 cents and that is if I stopped at 30 firings. The way I see it is I will always choose to shoot Lapua brass if it costs me less than 2 cents a shot.
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I’d agree with that. That’s amazing, I’m assuming you anneal pretty often?
 
#53
Sogan said:
I’d agree with that. That’s amazing, I’m assuming you anneal pretty often?
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I anneal about every 6th reload. I neck size 2 firings, then the bolt gets tight and I full length size. Takes about 2 full length sizings to need a trimming with this method. I anneal before I trim. Primer pockets never seem to get loose.
 
#54
Juggerxxx said:
Sounds very reasonable to me since you have a 26" barrel. Im getting 2900fps with the same 24.4gr of Varget out of a 24" barrel. I was able to hit 3000fps with no pressure signs but I did not like the accuracy or deviations in speed.
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I barley hit 3000 with 25.2 of varget in a 28" barrel with a long throat and OAL of 2.55. Don't kid yourself 3070fps with a 75 out of a 223 is a very hot load. 2 inches of barrel does not make 170fps. With 24.4 I would guess its jammed into the rifling.

There are a lot of .308 bullets with a much better BC than the 175 SMK. They can also be driven to ridiculous velocities, if you load them stupid hot. The 168 TMK can easily achieve 2800 and has a higher BC than the 175 SMK.
 
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#59
supercorndogs said:
I barley hit 3000 with 25.2 of varget in a 28" barrel with a long throat and OAL of 2.55. Don't kid yourself 3070fps with a 75 out of a 223 is a very hot load. 2 inches of barrel does not make 170fps. With 24.4 I would guess its jammed into the rifling.

There are a lot of .308 bullets with a much better BC than the 175 SMK. They can also be driven to ridiculous velocities, if you load them stupid hot. The 168 TMK can easily achieve 2800 and has a higher BC than the 175 SMK.
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Its not hot. I dont have pressure signs till high 24's. I'm shooting 75 ELDM with Varget and H4895 .015" off. 2.51 to lands. 26" MW cut rifled barrel no pressure signs. I'm actually doing a 223 26" barrel review with 4 different barrels and this result is the same with all of them. No pressure signs.

Here's load targets with 75 ELD-M with H4895 and Varget...


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/xG6nrvC.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/BdERK4B.jpg"}[/IMG2]
 
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#60
padom said:
Its not hot. I dont have pressure signs till high 24's. I'm shooting 75 ELDM with Varget and H4895 .015" off. 2.51 to lands. 26" MW cut rifled barrel no pressure signs. I'm actually doing a 223 26" barrel review with 4 different barrels and this result is the same with all of them. No pressure signs.

Here's load targets with 75 ELD-M with H4895 and Varget...


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/xG6nrvC.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/BdERK4B.jpg"}[/IMG2]
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You didn't get 3070fps either. Until you got to the high 24s where you say you have pressure signs, which would indicate a very hot load. He is picking up 200fps on your data for varget at 24.4g. Now what might cause that?
 
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#63
If youre getting great accuracy and having fun thats all that matters. Obviously the energy only matters if you're hunting so have fun with the .223 and save yourself some money. I love the recoil of a good .308 though.
 
#64
supercorndogs said:
You didn't get 3070fps either. Until you got to the high 24s where you say you have pressure signs, which would indicate a very hot load. He is picking up 200fps on your data for varget at 24.4g. Now what might cause that?
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As I previously mentioned, I did chrono the load (Magnetospeed) with 24.4 gr and my actual MV was 3021fps. So, he's only getting 124fps less.
 
#65
Kevin1 said:
As I previously mentioned, I did chrono the load (Magnetospeed) with 24.4 gr and my actual MV was 3021fps. So, he's only getting 124fps less.
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I know, but I did not say 24.4 was a very hot load, and I didn't say 3021 is a very hot load{although its ragged edge in my experience}. I said "Don't kid yourself 3070fps with a 75 out of a 223 is a very hot load."

With more and more data showing you are 100fps too fast, you starting to think about the bullet being jammed yet?
 
#67
I posted this in the hunting section but didn't get much there so thought this might be a good place to ask if anyone can comment on the terminal performance of the 75gr ELD-M's?
 
#68
I think my 223 strongly equals or outperforms most 308 loads. But it's a one off that I built as a PRS trainer.

I have a 223 Ackley Improved with a 28" 1/7.7" twist barrel. I get 3100fps with the 80gr SMK. My drops at 1k in a 5 mph wind are 7.1 mils elevation and 1.1 mils wind. That's at 2343 DA, and 48.2 degrees. In those conditions I don't go subsonic until 1380 yards.

If I recall that's 25.8grs XBR8208.
 
#69
Birddog6424 said:
I think my 223 strongly equals or outperforms most 308 loads. But it's a one off that I built as a PRS trainer.

I have a 223 Ackley Improved with a 28" 1/7.7" twist barrel. I get 3100fps with the 80gr SMK. My drops at 1k in a 5 mph wind are 7.1 mils elevation and 1.1 mils wind. That's at 2343 DA, and 48.2 degrees. In those conditions I don't go subsonic until 1380 yards.

If I recall that's 25.8grs XBR8208.
Click to expand...

At what OAL? Was gonna try and run it through QL just to see how high of pressure.

Ive gotten to 2950 out of a regular 24" 223 bolt gun at 24gr.
 
#71
I'm getting 2812fps with the 75 ELD and 24.1gr Varget out of a 22" barrel. COL for that load is 2.240 (.015 jump). With 75 BTHP I'm right around the same speed at 24.5gr Varget, COL 2.25".
 
#73
JBMills said:
I'm getting 2812fps with the 75 ELD and 24.1gr Varget out of a 22" barrel. COL for that load is 2.240 (.015 jump). With 75 BTHP I'm right around the same speed at 24.5gr Varget, COL 2.25".
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I agree that sounds very short for COAL... I had thought my throat was pretty short and with the 75 ELD, my COAL is approximately 2.430" when touching the lands. What barreled action are you shooting these from?
 
#74
Xander3Zero said:
I agree that sounds very short for COAL... I had thought my throat was pretty short and with the 75 ELD, my COAL is approximately 2.430" when touching the lands. What barreled action are you shooting these from?
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It's a Ruger American Predator. I agree it is very short. Certain factory ammo chambers hard due to the bullet hitting the lands. I've considered contacting Ruger about it but it shoots pretty well and I shoot mostly reloads. Not sure if I want to roll the dice on a different factory barrel. What do you think?
 
#75
JBMills said:
It's a Ruger American Predator. I agree it is very short. Certain factory ammo chambers hard due to the bullet hitting the lands. I've considered contacting Ruger about it but it shoots pretty well and I shoot mostly reloads. Not sure if I want to roll the dice on a different factory barrel. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I am no expert, and maybe some others will chime in, but I would probably reach out to Ruger about it. I mean if you're at 2.240 with a .015 jump, that means you can't even load to the standard 223 mag length of 2.260". If you are going to keep that rifle, you could always try the 73 ELD which is designed to be loaded to 2.260", and see how those work out.
 
#77
BallisticPrimate said:
I posted this in the hunting section but didn't get much there so thought this might be a good place to ask if anyone can comment on the terminal performance of the 75gr ELD-M's?
Click to expand...


I have some results for the 73gr ELD-M's from this past woodchuck season if that will help. I'm pushing them @2950fps for reference.

I found that with head shots the bullet would basically fragment on impact with bone. Thus a minimal exit wound and everything in an ~ 2" radius of the entry point was turned into jello. This was from 100yds out to 350yds. I didn't shoot any inside of 100yds or beyond 350yds and no body shots. In previous years I've used a 6.5 Creedmoor pushing a 130gr Berger @2850fps and they basically just punched through with an ~ 1" exit wound. Not always an instant death with the occasional roller/flopper. With the 73grs everything I hit was dead right there, barely any twitching, and no moving/flopping around. I'd feel comfortable using the 73 or 75 ELD-M's on anything up to about Souther whitetail sized game (150lbs).
 
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#78
JBMills said:
It's a Ruger American Predator. I agree it is very short. Certain factory ammo chambers hard due to the bullet hitting the lands. I've considered contacting Ruger about it but it shoots pretty well and I shoot mostly reloads. Not sure if I want to roll the dice on a different factory barrel. What do you think?
Click to expand...


I just re-read what I posted and missed my typo. I transposed 2 and 4. It's 2.420. My mistake. Still, American Eagle ammo chambers hard because it is jammed into he lands. I have even had a few pierced primers. I may still reach out to Ruger to look this rifle over. I doubt it's a carbon ring since I only have a few hundred rounds through it.

Sorry about the mistake.
 
#79
JBMills said:
I've considered contacting Ruger about it but it shoots pretty well and I shoot mostly reloads. Not sure if I want to roll the dice on a different factory barrel. What do you think?
Click to expand...
I recently sent a shit barrel back to Ruger. They sent me a new shit barrel back. I wouldn't put money on them getting you fixed up.
 
#80
JBMills said:
I just re-read what I posted and missed my typo. I transposed 2 and 4. It's 2.420. My mistake. Still, American Eagle ammo chambers hard because it is jammed into he lands. I have even had a few pierced primers. I may still reach out to Ruger to look this rifle over. I doubt it's a carbon ring since I only have a few hundred rounds through it.

Sorry about the mistake.
Click to expand...

http://criterionbarrels.com/prefits/ruger-american

http://patriotvalleyarms.com/tikka-and-ruger-american-prefit-barrel/

Could always go custom.
 
#81
TonyTheTiger said:
I recently sent a shit barrel back to Ruger. They sent me a new shit barrel back. I wouldn't put money on them getting you fixed up.
Click to expand...

That's my thoughts. It shoots well enough for what it is used for. To say the barrel is shit would be an understatement. The fired brass feels like the chamber was reamed with a hammer and chisel. It feels faceted. It's my wife's rifle and actually shoots really well. See below.

@GGK I plan on a Criterion barrel when/if I can't stand it any more.

Anyway, I fucked up with a typo so I'll stop hijacking this thread and let it run the course.
 
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#82
Not to steer the thread to far off course but anyone running these 75 grain ELDs in a 9 twist gun? Thoughts? Been wanting to step into a bigger gun but honestly dont believe my shooting or reloading skills are quite ready so Id like to play around with the .223 some more and push it a bit further.
 
#83
flyfisher117 said:
Not to steer the thread to far off course but anyone running these 75 grain ELDs in a 9 twist gun? Thoughts? Been wanting to step into a bigger gun but honestly dont believe my shooting or reloading skills are quite ready so Id like to play around with the .223 some more and push it a bit further.
Click to expand...
Have a read of the original post......
 
#85
flyfisher117 said:
I did, then I go read in the reloading section and every body says a 1:9 won't stabilize these past 300 yards. Then I read that only long 1:9 barrels will do it, then I read something else.
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My 1-9 barrel won't stabilize 68s, let alone 75s. All that tells me to get a 1-8 or faster to make sure.
 
#86
flyfisher117 said:
Not to steer the thread to far off course but anyone running these 75 grain ELDs in a 9 twist gun? Thoughts? Been wanting to step into a bigger gun but honestly dont believe my shooting or reloading skills are quite ready so Id like to play around with the .223 some more and push it a bit further.
Click to expand...

Have you measured the actual twist rate of your barrel yet? My Savage factory 1 in 9" barrel is actually a 1 in 8.25" and will stabilize the 75's and 77's.

If you actually have a true 1 in 9" then I would look hard at the 73gr ELD-M's. Here is a good thread for reference:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hornady-224-73-eld-m-testing.6252888/#post-6399580
 
#87
flyfisher117 said:
I did, then I go read in the reloading section and every body says a 1:9 won't stabilize these past 300 yards. Then I read that only long 1:9 barrels will do it, then I read something else.
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Quite right.

It's probably an 8 twist minimum as a general rule but different makes and barrels have their own tendencies.
I'm actually about to grab some of the 52 eldm and 53 Vmax to see what my 1-12 prefers.
 
#88
flyfisher117 said:
Not to steer the thread to far off course but anyone running these 75 grain ELDs in a 9 twist gun? Thoughts? Been wanting to step into a bigger gun but honestly dont believe my shooting or reloading skills are quite ready so Id like to play around with the .223 some more and push it a bit further.
Click to expand...

My 20" 1/9 will shoot the 73 eld
 
#89
308pirate said:
My 1-9 barrel won't stabilize 68s, let alone 75s. All that tells me to get a 1-8 or faster to make sure.
Click to expand...
Mine Loves Hornady 68gr bthp.
bunsen27 said:
Have you measured the actual twist rate of your barrel yet? My Savage factory 1 in 9" barrel is actually a 1 in 8.25" and will stabilize the 75's and 77's.

If you actually have a true 1 in 9" then I would look hard at the 73gr ELD-M's. Here is a good thread for reference:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hornady-224-73-eld-m-testing.6252888/#post-6399580
Click to expand...

I have not measured the actual twist. Its a Rem 700 SPS Tac from 2010 ish. Ive spent enough time load testing it to see that it shoots 62 grain vmax better than 55 and it prefers 69 grain bthps better than some 52 grain bthp I have shot.
 
#90
reubenski said:
So, in slightly keeping with this posts original intent about the 75 ELD-Ms, who knows the best price on these guys. I've seen a couple of places on Ammoseek that have them for $.19 a pc if you buy 3500 of them. I am nearing the end of my supply of 223 trainer ammo and will have to set up a 650 to run match ammo in bulk. It's going to be a beautiful thing to watch the bullet feeder and case feeder crank em out with a stroke of the handle...:)
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Powder valley has them for about the same price without having to buy 3500
 
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#92
I kinda like my cheap .223 bolt. Cheap, easy to load for, sometimes all I can get to is a short distance range, so bullet choices are many that work in a factory barrel (which is plenty accurate - I guess I got lucky).
 
#93
My normal range is 100 yards - sometimes 300 depending on the day. Then I have to drive 7 hours to go to K&M. So a 223 would be plenty for most days but I'm not sure id ever make up the cost difference in ammo if I have to buy another 2.5-3k set up but its a good excuse right?
 
#94
I know everyone will tell me that Hodgdon Benchmark is too fast for 75 grain bullets in 223 but I would disagree. LC brass cci 450 or Remington 7.5 primer 25 grains benchmark and a 75 grain bullet of your choice will yield 3000 fps out of a 24" barrel. This needs to be done with a bolt gun that has some freebore to the chamber i.e. Wylde chamber. The bullets are seated longer than 223 specs obviously and are run in a mdt polymer magazine. As always work up carefully.
 
#96
I have a Rem 700 SPS Tac with a 20" 1:9 twist barrel in a B&C stock and my most accurate loads (factory Hornady or my handloads using TAC powder) are with Hornady 68 gr. and 75 gr. BTHP bullets at 100, 200 and 300 yards (furthest I've shot it). I tried the factory 73 gr. ELD's and it didn't like them at all - groups certainly opened up. If and when this barrel is shot out (or I just want to rebarrel and true the action) I will get a 1:8 twist and probably a 22" or 24" tube to get a bit more velocity and be able to try some longer, heavier bullets.
 
#97
ilmonster said:
I have a Rem 700 SPS Tac with a 20" 1:9 twist barrel in a B&C stock and my most accurate loads (factory Hornady or my handloads using TAC powder) are with Hornady 68 gr. and 75 gr. BTHP bullets at 100, 200 and 300 yards (furthest I've shot it). I tried the factory 73 gr. ELD's and it didn't like them at all - groups certainly opened up. If and when this barrel is shot out (or I just want to rebarrel and true the action) I will get a 1:8 twist and probably a 22" or 24" tube to get a bit more velocity and be able to try some longer, heavier bullets.
Click to expand...

go with a 24" 1-7 twist, gives you more options and will keep the bullet stable longer.
 
#98
Greg Langelius * said:
The Hornady site shows the 178 ELD-Match G1 BC as .547 while it shows the 178 ELD-X as .552. At Mach 1.75, the difference (G7) opens up to .254 vs .271, and just keeps getting better further out.

My point is to ask why we are even bothering to shoot the Match version, when the ELD-X has a better BC and also incorporates state of the art terminal performance?

Greg
Click to expand...


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