Here are my numbers for comparison to 700yds
220TB/90smk/3049 - 4.1mil - 10mph Wind 1.47mil
6.5x47L/140Hybrid/2830 - 4.4mil - 10mph Wind 1.34mil
6BR/105 Hybrid/2857 - 4.6mil - 10mph Wind 1.53mil
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224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
Here are my numbers for comparison to 700yds
220TB/90smk/3049 - 4.1mil - 10mph Wind 1.47mil
6.5x47L/140Hybrid/2830 - 4.4mil - 10mph Wind 1.34mil
6BR/105 Hybrid/2857 - 4.6mil - 10mph Wind 1.53mil
All my testing has been in a TL3. The 220TB uses the same bolt face as 224V...
Keystone Accuracy has opened up Rem 223 bolt faces for 220TB which is fine... Thats not the issue with doing that. The controlled round feed and mechanical ejector is what makes this cartridge such smooth functioning in the TL3 or similarly featured actions... Just opened up the 223 Rem700 bolt face still has its feeding and ejection issues.... It works, but its not 100% reliable and butter smooth like the TL3.
The MDT 224V AICS pattern mag feeds 220TB 100% problem free and great in my TL3/XLR Envy Pro Comp chassis. The MDT metal 6BR mags work as well but require you to pinch the front of the feed lips closed a tad otherwise the rounds pop out. once you do that they work great as well.
.223 MDT Polymer AICS Magazine
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Shop MDT AICS Magazines for Bolt Action Rifles
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Agree that CRF makes operation feel smoother.
I have seen a Rem700 in 223 with Badger metal and MDT mags work flawless, that would give "ME" enough assurance to try the same w/a Hagar cartridge.
I see that Magpul is just about ready to release their 10 rd 223 single stack AICS pattern mags.
I have seen a Rem700 in 223 with Badger metal and MDT mags work flawless, that would give "ME" enough assurance to try the same w/a Hagar cartridge.
I see that Magpul is just about ready to release their 10 rd 223 single stack AICS pattern mags.
Not only feel smoother, but feed reliably and that mechanical ejector ensures proper ejection... Ive seen many rounds not feed reliably and not eject out of the action on an opened up 223 Rem700 bolt with 220TB/Hagar. Keystone Accuracy has one right now or at least did. Not sure if he got rid of it but we ran them side by side and it "worked" but it was not 100% reliable like I said in both feeding and ejection... Its CRF and the mechanical ejector is key in the fat stubby cartridges in my experience which is why I love TL3's and have 5....
220TB wont run in a 223 mag. You need a 224V/6.8 or modified 6BR mag....
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Alright guys. Ive finally got dies worked out. When and how much will all depend on you guys. The more pre-orders we can get the cheaper the sizing dies will be.
I am going to open up a pre-order group buy for the dies to see who all is on board. We really need 30 to get the price down.. Less than thirty and we are going to be about double of what it would be if we got 30 or more.....
Wayne at Might Armory has committed to making his Gold Full Length Resizing die in 220 Thunderbolt for me. It will have the same mandrel (vs a button) like all his other GOLD resizing dies and will come with 2 of his Super duty decapping pins. For those of you that dont own any of Might Armory's GOLD resizing dies, the fit and finish is beautiful. He single point cuts the ID of his dies, they are not reamed so the finish is beautiful. They are heat treated so they will last forever and the bore is slick as snot. You can feel the difference sizing brass with a MA Gold die vs a Redding, Forster, RCBS, etc...
Here is some info on MA Gold dies
The Mighty Armory GOLD MATCH is a Precision Match Series Sizing Die that includes a Decapping shaft and pin
For the seating die, we will be using a Redding Competition Micrometer .223rem seating die to start. Since the only thing that isnt the same in this die for 220TB is the sliding bushing, the sliding bushing will be machined out to spec for the 220TB case. I am waiting on final numbers, but this seating die will be somewhere around $150... (Price of the Redding Competition 223rem seating die plus $40-$50 for the machine time to ream the bushing).
I am going to open up a pre-order group buy for the dies to see who all is on board. We really need 30 to get the price down.. Less than thirty and we are going to be about double of what it would be if we got 30 or more.....
Wayne at Might Armory has committed to making his Gold Full Length Resizing die in 220 Thunderbolt for me. It will have the same mandrel (vs a button) like all his other GOLD resizing dies and will come with 2 of his Super duty decapping pins. For those of you that dont own any of Might Armory's GOLD resizing dies, the fit and finish is beautiful. He single point cuts the ID of his dies, they are not reamed so the finish is beautiful. They are heat treated so they will last forever and the bore is slick as snot. You can feel the difference sizing brass with a MA Gold die vs a Redding, Forster, RCBS, etc...
Here is some info on MA Gold dies
The Mighty Armory GOLD MATCH is a Precision Match Series Sizing Die that includes a Decapping shaft and pin
- "Worlds Toughest" Reloading Dies
- 100% CNC machined
- High Grade Tool Steel, Three Treatments
- 5 Bore Finish
- Heat Treated Drop in Expander Shaft.
- Concentricity near .0000
- Modular Design, No tools Needed
- Better than Carbide.
- Finest Sizing Die in the industry.
- Mighty Armory GOLD MATCH 6.5x47 Lapua Sizing Decapping Die
- Mandrel expander shaft
- Two Super Duty .057 decapping pins
- Pointer - a guide used in place of the pin
For the seating die, we will be using a Redding Competition Micrometer .223rem seating die to start. Since the only thing that isnt the same in this die for 220TB is the sliding bushing, the sliding bushing will be machined out to spec for the 220TB case. I am waiting on final numbers, but this seating die will be somewhere around $150... (Price of the Redding Competition 223rem seating die plus $40-$50 for the machine time to ream the bushing).
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We dont know yet. We get 10 people, could be $250 +/-. We get 30 people, could be under $200 Until we see how many commit we cant put a final price together.
Mighty Armory does not ream dies like your Redding, Forster, RCBS, etc.. They single point cut them. They have to make little arms and tooling for EVERY die they make. Nothing is the same from one die to the next. Even if its the same caliber but 1 thing is changed, its entirely new setup. That setup cost and tooling is expensive which is why the more orders we get, the cheaper the dies are so they can run the machine after its all setup vs doing all that setup to just run 10 dies.
Oh, I understand why they cost what they do, I've reamed a few dies myself on my lathe. I was just curious as to the price range, as I think that may drive reponses...
Also, to put this into perspective. To size my 220TB brass currently with my TypeS bushing 220TB die...... You have the custom die cost + the cost of the Redding Bushing + I use a 21st Century mandrel die and TiN mandrel..... With these new MA Gold dies you will need nothing I just mentioned. Just this die and thats it to size and decap.
I know its what guys want to know, but unfortunetly I cant put cost together more than I have said above until we know how many we got. Its gonna be $250 for sure if we only get 10 or so guys. We can cut that number close to in half if we can get 30 or more dies..... I also know Keystone is about to order Bartlein 1:7 blanks so guys can get barrels cut for 220TB once this die making starts..
So, I think you just answered the question; What's worst case cost?
That being said, put me down for a set. This will (at a minimum) make for an interesting test (already have a Valk LH GT bolt gun, so this would be an interesting project to play with).
ETA: I'm kind of curious why Keystone can't just ream Wilson seating die blanks...it'd certainly be cheaper. But then again, you'd need an arbor press and that could dissuade some from jumping on the wagon....
I had 2 26" Valkyrie Bartlein and GM barrels I tested side by side with my 220TB. I even designed a long freebore reamer to give me more case capacity in a bolt gun with the 88 ELD's. Pressure issues at 2800-2850, couldnt go any higher. So the 220TB is shooting that same bullet at 3100 with a non high pressure load.
Yea I dont think many are jumping on board if the seating die is a arbor press die... The seating die is actually not the expensive compared to the sizing die. Redding Competition micrometer seaters going for just over $100 so $40-$50 for the CNC machine time of the bushing isnt a bad deal imho vs have Redding or Whidden or Forster make a 220TB dedicated micrometer seating die.. That would be double the cost...
It will size the neck like any other FL sizing die. The final neck ID will be what my current Type S bushing die is. .002-.0025 neck tension.
Im going to open an official 220TB dies Group buy thread in the group buy subforum in the next day or two with all the info, test results, etc. That is where I want everyone to post if they are in. Once you post, Ill PM you for some basic info and put you on the list. Need to see how many people we can get then we will discuss final pricing, deposits, pre-orders, invoicing, etc just like all my other group buys Ive run.
Ill link to the group buy in this thread once its up.
Ill link to the group buy in this thread once its up.
Alright everyone. Here is the official 220TB dies Group Buy thread. Everyone that wants in, post in that thread and Ill start adding everyone to a log to keep track how many we have
www.snipershide.com
Group Buys - 220 Thunderbolt Reloading dies Group Buy
Alright guys. Ive finally got dies worked out. When and how much will all depend on you guys. The more pre-orders we can get the cheaper the sizing dies will be. I am going to open up a pre-order group buy for the dies to see who all is on board. We really need 30 to get the price down.. Less...
www.snipershide.com
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I think @padom forgot to link the group buy thread.......
www.snipershide.com
Group Buys - 220 Thunderbolt Reloading dies Group Buy
Alright guys. Ive finally got dies worked out. When and how much will all depend on you guys. The more pre-orders we can get the cheaper the sizing dies will be. I am going to open up a pre-order group buy for the dies to see who all is on board. We really need 30 to get the price down.. Less...
www.snipershide.com
I am interested in this cartridge but have not been able to find case dimensions. Is it simply a necked down Hagar case, or is the should pushed back? If so, how far?
I can't give you the numbers, easiest to call John at Keystone Accuracy. It's his invention I believe.
@Titanreklaw yes it is simply a necked down Hagar case.
It's a great little cartridge.
Good Luck,
Ross
It's a great little cartridge.
Good Luck,
Ross
The hot air from people that have zero experience with this cartridge is laughable. This isnt some NEW fairy dust cartridge. Its been around and shot in competition for something like 10-15yrs. I know John has gone through countless barrels. Button barrels have been getting 2000-2250 and Cut have been seeing 2500+ through years of competition.
I personally have 4 or 5 220TB barrels.. I undertook this project of transitioning this cartridge from an AR cartridge to a bolt gun cartridge because I thought it would really shine here. With a much longer freebore, allowing for more case capacity for these 90's, it shines.
The 1st 220TB bolt gun barrel I did most of the testing on and tried killing it was a 26" Green Mountain 1:7 button barrel Keystone made me that I pulled at 2200rd that was still shooting lights out. My current setup is a Bartlein 26" 1:7 but Im not over 1000rd on that one yet to see how much more this cut rifled barrel is getting over the GM button. But like I said, I didnt kill the GM at 2200. It was still holding the same accuracy and velocity.
In regards to the 22-250 comparisons, I dont have one but 22-250 has more case capacity, is longer, uses a larger bolt face.. The closest comparison cartridge wise to the 220TB is a 22BR... If you do your research, you will see many many people getting well over 2500rd from 22BR with many reporting 3500-4000rd.
My 220TB 90gr load I shoot at 3000 is a MILD load. I took it up to 3100 and still didnt have pressure signs. If you actually read my testing thread, you will see I had a goal of shooting this 220TB in a bolt gun with 90's at 3000 without pressure signs... I far exceeded that goal but settled on that load for barrel life since it was my original goal
I personally have 4 or 5 220TB barrels.. I undertook this project of transitioning this cartridge from an AR cartridge to a bolt gun cartridge because I thought it would really shine here. With a much longer freebore, allowing for more case capacity for these 90's, it shines.
The 1st 220TB bolt gun barrel I did most of the testing on and tried killing it was a 26" Green Mountain 1:7 button barrel Keystone made me that I pulled at 2200rd that was still shooting lights out. My current setup is a Bartlein 26" 1:7 but Im not over 1000rd on that one yet to see how much more this cut rifled barrel is getting over the GM button. But like I said, I didnt kill the GM at 2200. It was still holding the same accuracy and velocity.
In regards to the 22-250 comparisons, I dont have one but 22-250 has more case capacity, is longer, uses a larger bolt face.. The closest comparison cartridge wise to the 220TB is a 22BR... If you do your research, you will see many many people getting well over 2500rd from 22BR with many reporting 3500-4000rd.
My 220TB 90gr load I shoot at 3000 is a MILD load. I took it up to 3100 and still didnt have pressure signs. If you actually read my testing thread, you will see I had a goal of shooting this 220TB in a bolt gun with 90's at 3000 without pressure signs... I far exceeded that goal but settled on that load for barrel life since it was my original goal
We dont THINK anything in this thread, we've been doing it. Tell me, how many 220TB barrels have you shot and what was your barrel life?
Even though this is an old thread, I have renewed interest in the Thunderbolt.
The wife and I shoot 22N, currently stuck @ 600 yds, in 28" ARs.
I size 6mm Hagar to 22 Nosgar for her, and 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass in a No-Gas AR for me.
Still have over a thousand untouched Hagar cases.
Neither of us shoots tiny little groups but getting better.
If she keeps her interest up, a Thunderbolt bolt gun might be a good Christmas (or Valentine's) present.
She doesn't read here
Staball 6.5 is fast in the 22N, 31.0gr under a 90 A-tip in the Nosgar, 32gr in the Dogtown brass moving real close to 3000fps (2050 or so @ 600).
SB 6.5 would probably work in the TB.
I've got about 3300 rounds down the No-Gas barrel and it's about shot out. She has about 700 rounds on hers.
How's a Defiance action, with a .224 bolt face, and a button X-Caliber barrel (29" bull 1:7) sound?
Guess I would need to have it chambered for long loading the 220 TB.
Time to learn, search, and shop.
The wife and I shoot 22N, currently stuck @ 600 yds, in 28" ARs.
I size 6mm Hagar to 22 Nosgar for her, and 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass in a No-Gas AR for me.
Still have over a thousand untouched Hagar cases.
Neither of us shoots tiny little groups but getting better.
If she keeps her interest up, a Thunderbolt bolt gun might be a good Christmas (or Valentine's) present.
She doesn't read here
Staball 6.5 is fast in the 22N, 31.0gr under a 90 A-tip in the Nosgar, 32gr in the Dogtown brass moving real close to 3000fps (2050 or so @ 600).
SB 6.5 would probably work in the TB.
I've got about 3300 rounds down the No-Gas barrel and it's about shot out. She has about 700 rounds on hers.
How's a Defiance action, with a .224 bolt face, and a button X-Caliber barrel (29" bull 1:7) sound?
Guess I would need to have it chambered for long loading the 220 TB.
Time to learn, search, and shop.
Even though this is an old thread, I have renewed interest in the Thunderbolt.
The wife and I shoot 22N, currently stuck @ 600 yds, in 28" ARs.
I size 6mm Hagar to 22 Nosgar for her, and 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass in a No-Gas AR for me.
Still have over a thousand untouched Hagar cases.
Neither of us shoots tiny little groups but getting better.
If she keeps her interest up, a Thunderbolt bolt gun might be a good Christmas (or Valentine's) present.
She doesn't read here
Staball 6.5 is fast in the 22N, 31.0gr under a 90 A-tip in the Nosgar, 32gr in the Dogtown brass moving real close to 3000fps (2050 or so @ 600).
SB 6.5 would probably work in the TB.
I've got about 3300 rounds down the No-Gas barrel and it's about shot out. She has about 700 rounds on hers.
How's a Defiance action, with a .224 bolt face, and a button X-Caliber barrel (29" bull 1:7) sound?
Guess I would need to have it chambered for long loading the 220 TB.
Time to learn, search, and shop.
220TB is honestly dead. Sorry to say because it was a great cartridge. No dies available,.nobody wants to make them, current Hornady brass sucks. I pushed it hard for years, nobody wanted to get on board to make brass or dies... pockets go quick in the current Hornady Hagar brass.
I made the full switch to 22BR and never looked back. Better brass life (20-30 firings), dies available, smith's have reamers...
Pushs to the same velocities with virtually the same powder weight with the same bullets....really no reason to go 220TB anymore...
Thanks.
Will give some more thought to it.
Didn't think the 22BR would handle heavy bullets but looks like it does.
I'm pretty invested in heavy 22 bullets More than I can lift
Will give some more thought to it.
Didn't think the 22BR would handle heavy bullets but looks like it does.
I'm pretty invested in heavy 22 bullets More than I can lift
Thanks.
Will give some more thought to it.
Didn't think the 22BR would handle heavy bullets but looks like it does.
I'm pretty invested in heavy 22 bullets More than I can lift
That's all I shoot in mine.. 90smk, 88 ELD, 85.5.... normal freebore reamer most smith's have is .105fb. Shoots the 80's and 90s very well but you give up a little case capacity with the 85/90's..
I had my own 22BR reamer made...no turn Lapua neck and 0.130fb.. perfect for max case capacity with 90smk and 85.5. 88 eld is in the case a little bit more.. 0.150fb would be optimal if you planned to solely shoot 88 eld..
7.5 twist is perfect. Keeps the rpms around 290-300k.... my first barrel was a 7 twist and while it was stupid accurate with 80s it was a little picky with heavies. Switched to a 7.5 twist and it's stupid easy like a 6br with heavies...
Here my 22br with 90smk last week I had out testing with 4166... didn't disappoint
For comparison...my 220TB 28.6gr 90smk load was 2983... so virtually the exact same velocity with same bullet and same powder charge..
Something to look into, thanks.
The wife, being a girl, is pretty recoil sensitive
We really like shooting F-Class.
Heavy 22s going fast are pretty good on paper for wind.
The wife, being a girl, is pretty recoil sensitive
We really like shooting F-Class.
Heavy 22s going fast are pretty good on paper for wind.
I feel like the 220 thunderbolt really shines in the ar15 platfom with 75 to 80 grain loads around 3000fps
reloader 15.5 gives about 100fps more velocity than varget or reloader 15 with less pressure signs on the brass and better accuracy for the same charge weight of vaget/reloader 15. For a bolt gun the 22 bench rest is the way to go
I loved 77 TMK's in my 220TB 24" Krieger AR15... 29.0gr RE15 3045 grouping in the 0.2's... I was also running first run Hagar brass that was like Lapua. Lasted a long time. The new stuff is junk....
The 22 BR is looking pretty good for a girl gun
Looking over load data I have a few powders that should work. SB6.5 might not.
Which flavor of 22 BR brass do you use (make)?
Seems to be a shortage of 6mmBR currently.
I have this 401 RMD just sitting around so looks like a present for the little lady is something to think about.
Looking over load data I have a few powders that should work. SB6.5 might not.
Which flavor of 22 BR brass do you use (make)?
Seems to be a shortage of 6mmBR currently.
I have this 401 RMD just sitting around so looks like a present for the little lady is something to think about.
I've been shooting 6BR for many years so I use Lapua. I had a ton of it already.
Gotta keep an eye out it pops up but goes quick.... Peterson 6br brass is in stock at Grafs but I have no experience with it in 22br
Gotta keep an eye out it pops up but goes quick.... Peterson 6br brass is in stock at Grafs but I have no experience with it in 22br
I’ve been running Peterson 6BR brass for a while now and like it as well as Lapua, for 6BR. I have no idea in 22BR.
I also have run it in 6BR. I had to drop my load down vs Lapua...
22BR no clue how neck clearance will be and loaded neck diameter..
