.224 Valkyrie

[AKGuide]

I forgot to ask: are you experiencing any bullet deformation when seating, especially with R17? My first round was really dented, so I went and got the lapping compound I ordered and it helped quite a bit. I really don't think it has any effect on accuracy, but it just shouldn't be there.

No deformation at all. I am using a forester set. Both fl sizer and seating die. I can see where the bullet contacts the stem but no deformed bullet (bullet looks well supported at contact point). I’ve been using forester dies for other cartridges for a few years and really like their seating dies (fully supported case). I have had a few rounds be hard to chamber and may have to take a little off the bottom of the sizing die. I am hoping rcbs makes a precision mic for this cartridge soon so I can measure headspace and shoulder bump.

Have you tried 90 smk’s as well and what did you get for CBTO if you did?

 

[binazone]

No deformation at all. I am using a forester set. Both fl sizer and seating die. I can see where the bullet contacts the stem but no deformed bullet (bullet looks well supported at contact point). I’ve been using forester dies for other cartridges for a few years and really like their seating dies (fully supported case). I have had a few rounds be hard to chamber and may have to take a little off the bottom of the sizing die. I am hoping rcbs makes a precision mic for this cartridge soon so I can measure headspace and shoulder bump.

Have you tried 90 smk’s as well and what did you get for CBTO if you did?

Nice to know about Forster stems. I have some of their other equipment but no dies. Nope,haven't tried the 90s yet, but I will pay closer attention to the data you've posted.

 

[Subwrx300]

Thought I would toss up some data for H4350 with 88ELDMs. Ran OCW from 26.2-27.4 at 2.300" OAL. I should note that this barrel was at 100 rounds when I ran the OCW and 150 when I ran the seating depth test. In my experience, flyers don't settle down until around 200-250 rounds through the tube. In fact, you can see the difference below.

H4350 ran from 2702fps to 2800fps out of my 26" barrel. I get about 8.3fps per .1grain increment, and it's quite linear overall. That means if I can keep loads to +- .1gr, I should see an SD around 8-10, which is exactly what I found in the middle groups.

I selected 26.8gr, the largest group of the bunch and worst flyers. But it was also in the low SD node (26.4-27.0gr), had a fairly consistent POI relative to charge below and above. And lastly, had a tight cluster of 3 shots. I thought it would be a good test to my theory of barrel wear and flyers.

Note the red circles for the flyers; 100% not me and I think it is bullets that become deformed/damaged by gas port getting tossed or flying apart.

Then ran a seating depth test from 2.240-2.300" in .010" increments. Target was shot left to right (2 groups in first warmup, then 5 shot groups for each seating depth). Interestingly, the flyers I have show up toward the end but are significantly closer to group center and becoming more predictable.

The last two groups are same as first two groups as a control (2.300" with 26.8gr H4350). I do this to see if I have a major change in groups from begining to end of session.

As soon as I shot the 2.270" group that is a dead vertical line, I predicted the next group would tighten considerably and BANG! .6", .5", .7 and .6". The red circles flyers are getting much closer to group center and at 2.300" (last two groups) they disappeared.

Will reshoot next weekend to confirm, but this is my new winter load. CFE works great in summer but is too picky with temps at certain nodes, so I'm hoping I can see an improvement in temp sensitivity with this load as weather warms into summer.

 

[Shawn1492]

Out of curiosity why H4350 over H4895?

 

[Subwrx300]

Out of curiosity why H4350 over H4895?

Good question. Couple of reasons:

I've got (3) 8lb jugs I run in my 6.5cm. If I can find a good load for two rifles with same powder, I'm thrilled. Makes my life easier not having to chase down multiple cans of each powder.

Second, after trying Varget, CFE223, Reloader 15, Reloader 16, and RE17, I found the slower powders help my longer barrel quite a bit. I'm on the edge of too long (26") and with the extra slow burn of h4350, I can keep SD low quite easily. I may even cut my barrel back to 22-24" or so as an experiment.

Lastly, temp sensitivity, which has yet to be confirmed in 224V, but in my 6.5CM, my load changes 15 fps from 5 deg F to 85degF, which is outstanding. If the 224V is anything near that I'll be all sorts of happy. CFE is perfect for speed but I have to adjust load up/down .1gr for each 20 deg to stay at the same speed.

H4350 is a moderately compressed load at these charges, which I tend to avoid in a bolt gun but, for gas rifle, it keeps ignition consistent so powder can't move around in case (Just like 25gr Varget on a 69SMK in 223Wylde/556.)

 

[AP2020]

I stopped using CFE223 = too dirty + temperature sensitive. Try IMR 8208 XBR if you can find some.

 

[chavezz556]

How far off the lands are you guys setting your 80 ELD's?

Also has anyone tried the Berger 80.5s?

 

[JPatzig]

Everyone in the Valkyrie Ascending fb group seemed to love the 80 ELD's with H4895. It ended up working for me too. Think I'm finally going to settle on this combo and tweak the load a bit more. Couldn't believe the readings on 2 and 5.

Bison Armory 24" 6.5t heavy fluted
80 eld-m
H4895
2 x fired FC brass
CCI 400
85 yards (indoor range)

 

[IHFarmer07]

FINALLY got my reloading setup up and running!! Got some loads loaded and will test tonight.


Going to be doing a 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test on using cfe223 80 and 88 eldms and 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test using varget with 80 and 88 eldms. All 40 rounds for the tests are in .1 grain increments.
Using all new stuff, fx120i scale, forester FL sizing without expanding ball, push a neck turning mandrel though and seat the bullets with the forester micrometer seater die.

 

[chavezz556]

FINALLY got my reloading setup up and running!! Got some loads loaded and will test tonight.
View attachment 7024356View attachment 7024357View attachment 7024358View attachment 7024359View attachment 7024360View attachment 7024361

Going to be doing a 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test on using cfe223 80 and 88 eldms and 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test using varget with 80 and 88 eldms. All 40 rounds for the tests are in .1 grain increments.
Using all new stuff, fx120i scale, forester FL sizing without expanding ball, push a neck turning mandrel though and seat the bullets with the forester micrometer seater die.

Your ladder should be around 10% of the charge weight... .1 is too close

 

[IHFarmer07]

Your ladder should be around 10% of the charge weight... .1 is too close

ya I know....I should've went .2 but I wanted more precise data.

 

[IHFarmer07]

10 shot Satterlee test w/ cfe223 .010" off w/ 88eldm and cci450's
25.5- 2704
25.6- 2721
25.7- 2726
25.8- 2672
25.9- 2699
26.0- 2710
26.1- 2777
26.2- 2783
26.3- 2766
26.4- 2766

10 shot Satterlee test w/ cfe223 .010 off w/ 80eldm and cci450's
26.0- 2777
26.1- 2789
26.2- 2824
26.3- 2830
26.4- 2855
26.5- 2861
26.6- 2886
26.7- 2830
26.8- 2879
26.9- 2873

3 shot test w/ 80gr eldms .010" off cci br-4's
25.5- 2732
25.5- 2766
25.5- 2737
av- 2745
es- 34
sd- 18

Varget 10 shot Satterlee test w/ 88eldm cci450, .010" off
23.0- 2525
23.1- 2559
23.2- 2599
23.3- 2534
23.4- 2583
23.5- 2544
23.6- 2619
23.7- 2604
23.8- 2588
23.9- 2604

Varget 10 shot Satterlee test w/ 80eldm, .010" off
24.3- 2732
24.4- 2721
24.5- 2754
24.6- 2743
24.7- 2760
24.8- 2772
24.9- 2807
25.0- 2801
25.1- 2836
25.2- 2849

rem700 with remage conversion, 24" 1-6.5" criterion barrel

No pressure signs yet, I should've gone farther apart between loads but with the 80eldm's I wasn't sure what/where to start.

Very accurate 10 shot tests, 10 shots fell under an 1" with all loads except where I was adjusting for the 80's.

One interesting thing I did was with 6 rounds that I thought was promising for varget 88eldm's that didn't turn out. I took 3 apart(very very very hard to get apart, lots of bullet tension), weighed the charge to the correct charge(1 was close but other 2 not so much) which I weighed out using a cheaper Lyman scale before, resized the brass without the expander ball and kept the same primer in, used a turning mandrel to get correct neck tension, loaded corrected charge of powder and topped off with the same bullet that came out. Run out was noticeable between the 2; 3 shot loadings....

old reloads without corrected changes of 23.6 of varget
1-2629
2-2609
3-2624
av-2620
es-20
sd-10

Corrected reloads with actual charge from the fx120i or 23.6gr of varget
1-2609
2-2619
3-2604
av-2610
es-15
sd-7

Will post the videos of runout between the 2 loadings above and grouping of the 2.

 

[IHFarmer07]

Before loaded bullets with my starting equipment and practices.


New equipment with new practices and powder charge corrected.

 

[IHFarmer07]

Can’t post videos of my runout test will......but on the redone loads, there was .002”- a hair <.002” runout, bottom group

On the old loads with the Redding premium deluxe die set there was .002”, .003” and .004” runout, those are the the top group

The random fully prepped brass had tested had less than .0015” runout on them. Very interesting figures I had gotten I thought.

 

[IHFarmer07]

Ok guys in my bolt gun what do you think I should do here......it’s seems I ran out of space for powder before I have seen pressure signs.....primer pockets are in good shape yet with 6-7 loadings on the same 50 pcs of brass I started with which was once fired in my gun from factory 60gr fed brass. Had a few crack necks but I think that’s from turning the necks and may have been thin there. I have maxed out re15, varget, cfe223 to the point that they was starting to compress and deform the bullet slightly, at that point I rather not go any farther. With the cfe223 I decided to go .2 because it just seemed to never end in finding the velocities I would like and to get where I wanted faster without wasting time/components lol. Chavezz556 was right that it wasn’t far enough apart but I honestly I thought it wouldn’t be long before I seen pressure signs but never really did. Anyway

Where would you settle at one these......bout half a # of varget left and may end up going to h4895 sometime lol, but in the mean time....I’m using what I have for now.
.
Reloader15

 

[Subwrx300]

Ok guys in my bolt gun what do you think I should do here......it’s seems I ran out of space for powder before I have seen pressure signs.....primer pockets are in good shape yet with 6-7 loadings on the same 50 pcs of brass I started with which was once fired in my gun from factory 60gr fed brass. Had a few crack necks but I think that’s from turning the necks and may have been thin there. I have maxed out re15, varget, cfe223 to the point that they was starting to compress and deform the bullet slightly, at that point I rather not go any farther. With the cfe223 I decided to go .2 because it just seemed to never end in finding the velocities I would like and to get where I wanted faster without wasting time/components lol. Chavezz556 was right that it wasn’t far enough apart but I honestly I thought it wouldn’t be long before I seen pressure signs but never really did. Anyway
View attachment 7027160View attachment 7027161
Where would you settle at one these......bout half a # of varget left and may end up going to h4895 sometime lol, but in the mean time....I’m using what I have for now.
.View attachment 7027225
Reloader15

Is this a Saterlee style load test? Eg 1 shot per charge?

I'm not a huge fan of that method because of the tiny sample size per charge. While it may be good for finding pressure signs/max charge for known catridge, it can be less than ideal for newer rounds that you aren't familiar with.

For example, the Varget test has a huge dip in velocity at the second to last charge. The 4th and 3rd highest charges appear to be a "flat" spot in velocity but the huge drop just after that could indicate either poor SD with that powder or a bad charge when loading.

CFE shows consistent increase in pressure and velocity up to max. There seems to be a flat spot near the last three charges but, again, you won't know more until you fire at least 3-5 rounds.

Personally, I've had good success with CFE but it is a bit temp sensitive. With this cartidge though, velocity is nearly everything. Sending an 80gr at 3000+ will make up the deficit in BC compared to the 88/90gr.

I would suggest loading 4 or 5 round strings at .2gr intervals of CFE for the last 5 charges. Use the best SD load and run seating test depth test with 4 rounds each at .015 increments. You will know your charge virtually instantly.

 

[IHFarmer07]

Is this a Saterlee style load test? Eg 1 shot per charge?

I'm not a huge fan of that method because of the tiny sample size per charge. While it may be good for finding pressure signs/max charge for known catridge, it can be less than ideal for newer rounds that you aren't familiar with.

For example, the Varget test has a huge dip in velocity at the second to last charge. The 4th and 3rd highest charges appear to be a "flat" spot in velocity but the huge drop just after that could indicate either poor SD with that powder or a bad charge when loading.

CFE shows consistent increase in pressure and velocity up to max. There seems to be a flat spot near the last three charges but, again, you won't know more until you fire at least 3-5 rounds.

Personally, I've had good success with CFE but it is a bit temp sensitive. With this cartidge though, velocity is nearly everything. Sending an 80gr at 3000+ will make up the deficit in BC compared to the 88/90gr.

I would suggest loading 4 or 5 round strings at .2gr intervals of CFE for the last 5 charges. Use the best SD load and run seating test depth test with 4 rounds each at .015 increments. You will know your charge virtually instantly.

Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.

 

[AKGuide]

Got out today mainly to see what velocity I could get safely.
24” Bison Armory 6.5 twist
Here is my data
17FEB2019 30.6F, 86%H, 30.14inhg
Virgin starline, H4895, GM205MAR, HbN coated 80eld-m @ 1.764” CBTO for 0.040” jump, 2.315”oal
24.3-2820
24.5-2888
24.7-2891
24.9-2895
25.0-2918
25.1-2935
25.2-2953
All brass looks good to go and will keep going up a tenth at a time till I find pressure or the groups open up. It was howling out today so the group might be a fluke we will see for sure in better weather with five shot groups and averages. Hoping for the magical 3000fps mark. I also got my 95smk’s in and will see if the groups continue to hold using previous data and also will load a few with the federal primers for grins.

 

[Subwrx300]

Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.

Personally, I'd try to keep the velocity at or above 3000 if you can find good accuracy. That would mean CFE or maybe H4350 with very full case.

I usually load to .2gr increments for 223Rem sized cases on the first pass; then retest best charge -+.1 grain at distance for consistency and POI change.

This is mainly because I know I can keep +-.1 at worst when loading ammo and the smaller case volume makes it more sensitive to load variation. Finding a node that keeps similar POI with small change in charge is more important with small volume cases.

I have a specific method for find solid nodes/charges, but the 224V is definitely a tricky caliber. The powders are either slightly too fast to get good velocity with heavies, too temp sensitive to work in hot/cold, and/or too bulky to get enough slower powder in case without ultra compressed charge.

In my testing, CFE produces the best velocity and good precision but requires different charges for different temps (+-.1gr for each 20 deg away from temp that load was developed).

H4350 has great temp stability but is bulky so it requires a compressed charge and gives up some speed to CFE (about 70-90fps at fastest safe nodes I can find).

These are my two main powders now and unless we (collectively) find another powder that is the equivalent to the 6.5CM/42gr H4350/140 ELD or the 556/25GR Varget/69SMK like load, I'll keep working to find an 88/90gr combo that is consistent across multiple barrels.

 

[IHFarmer07]

Personally, I'd try to keep the velocity at or above 3000 if you can find good accuracy. That would mean CFE or maybe H4350 with very full case.

I usually load to .2gr increments for 223Rem sized cases on the first pass; then retest best charge -+.1 grain at distance for consistency and POI change.

This is mainly because I know I can keep +-.1 at worst when loading ammo and the smaller case volume makes it more sensitive to load variation. Finding a node that keeps similar POI with small change in charge is more important with small volume cases.

I have a specific method for find solid nodes/charges, but the 224V is definitely a tricky caliber. The powders are either slightly too fast to get good velocity with heavies, too temp sensitive to work in hot/cold, and/or too bulky to get enough slower powder in case without ultra compressed charge.

In my testing, CFE produces the best velocity and good precision but requires different charges for different temps (+-.1gr for each 20 deg away from temp that load was developed).

H4350 has great temp stability but is bulky so it requires a compressed charge and gives up some speed to CFE (about 70-90fps at fastest safe nodes I can find).

These are my two main powders now and unless we (collectively) find another powder that is the equivalent to the 6.5CM/42gr H4350/140 ELD or the 556/25GR Varget/69SMK like load, I'll keep working to find an 88/90gr combo that is consistent across multiple barrels.

Thanks very much, sounds good!!! I'll probably deal with cfe223 for winter use and I'll get H4895 here soon I suppose. I'll find what charge will work for me using cfe223 for now and move on to the better....

 

[chavezz556]

Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.

Did you see pressure at the top of the cfe load? If not load up 10 rounds on the top end. If you got SD's in the single digits and groups look good.. you're done

I would suggest going back and doing it at .3 grain increments.. but you might be fine where you're at...

 

[IHFarmer07]

Did you see pressure at the top of the cfe load? If not load up 10 rounds on the top end. If you got SD's in the single digits and groups look good.. you're done

I would suggest going back and doing it at .3 grain increments.. but you might be fine where you're at...

I did see on the primers in the last 2 -3 loadings that where the firing pin struck, it was raised ever so slightly around the firing pin. Like it was starting to crater, just enough to catch my finger nail a little. I didn’t mention it before because I didn’t catch it before.....have to look at it in just the right light and scratch it before you can tell.
I’ll load some up 10 up and also maybe go down from top charge in .3 to whatever later...depends on the 10 first....I did buy more primers, of course cci450 but I also got cci br-4, cci41and will be getting Federal GMM primers hopefully Tuesday as the local place sells out of them rather quickly. The nice thing about local, they sell by the 100 or 1000 and usually get 200 to play before I get 1000. Maybe play with those here and there, so far the cci450 ‘s have been very good.

 

[chavezz556]

I did see on the primers in the last 2 -3 loadings that where the firing pin struck, it was raised ever so slightly around the firing pin. Like it was starting to crater, just enough to catch my finger nail a little. I didn’t mention it before because I didn’t catch it before.....have to look at it in just the right light and scratch it before you can tell.
I’ll load some up 10 up and also maybe go down from top charge in .3 to whatever later...depends on the 10 first....I did buy more primers, of course cci450 but I also got cci br-4, cci41and will be getting Federal GMM primers hopefully Tuesday as the local place sells out of them rather quickly. The nice thing about local, they sell by the 100 or 1000 and usually get 200 to play before I get 1000. Maybe play with those here and there, so far the cci450 ‘s have been very good.

I run the BR-4's.. imo they are the most consistent primer

 

[AP2020]

Finally getting somewhere!

 

[Subwrx300]

Finally getting somewhere!

Good video. I've shot 3000+ rounds of 224V through two different barrels. I don't think the fliers are your doing necessarily. Of the last 6 barrels on AR platforms I've installed (224V, 223 Wylde and 6.5 CM) all of them have thrown fliers that are well outside of group avg for the first 150-200 rounds. After that, the fliers get closer and closer to group center.

The 224Vs with heavier 88/90gr bullets however seem to suffer more than the 223 Rems shooting 69smk/77smks. I am nearly convinced that this "phenomenon" is a product of the gas port wear during break-in. Some barrels (read: very few) may shoot lights out to start and stay there. But in discussion with a few match shooters and barrel makers for service rifle comps, some of them won't use a barrel in matches until at least 150-200rds down barrel to ensure consistency.

I think there is a link between heavy slow bullets and this increase in fliers. Mainly due to jacket disturbance as it passes over gas ports causing I'm balance in bullet or tearing portion of outer bearing surface.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for posting.

 

[AP2020]

Good video. I've shot 3000+ rounds of 224V through two different barrels. I don't think the fliers are your doing necessarily. Of the last 6 barrels on AR platforms I've installed (224V, 223 Wylde and 6.5 CM) all of them have thrown fliers that are well outside of group avg for the first 150-200 rounds. After that, the fliers get closer and closer to group center.

The 224Vs with heavier 88/90gr bullets however seem to suffer more than the 223 Rems shooting 69smk/77smks. I am nearly convinced that this "phenomenon" is a product of the gas port wear during break-in. Some barrels (read: very few) may shoot lights out to start and stay there. But in discussion with a few match shooters and barrel makers for service rifle comps, some of them won't use a barrel in matches until at least 150-200rds down barrel to ensure consistency.

I think there is a link between heavy slow bullets and this increase in fliers. Mainly due to jacket disturbance as it passes over gas ports causing I'm balance in bullet or tearing portion of outer bearing surface.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for posting.

Honestly, I no longer have any faith in traditional lead core bullets. When I attempted to measure the base to ogive measurements for the Sierra 95gr SMK's, they were all over the place. It is the very nature of how lead core bullets are manufactured. Millions upon millions of bullets are stamped out on presses that run worn and/or brand new dies. The ogives on the lead core bullets will vary from lot to lot. I used to measure bullet ogives with a dial indicator mounted vertically on a granite base. However, that 1st group with the 95gr SMK did show some hope!

I was really struggling with focusing with my eyes, very strange phenomenon. If you noticed in some of the shot sequences, there is a long cut between shots. That was me trying to regain my eye focus. I am not sure if it was the 22 deg F temperature, the frozen confield stubble, laying in the prone position with an awkward head/neck alignment and the 6 layers of clothing I had on....

 

[chavezz556]

Finally getting somewhere!

Did youcheck to see if you have the sammi spec chamber?

 

[AP2020]

Did youcheck to see if you have the sammi spec chamber?

I sure do. Base to rifling is approximately 1.697".

 

[IHFarmer07]

Well I did 4 shot groups on the velocities that I want and in the flat spots that I got before....I think varget is the best bet even though it’s slower. I did end up getting H4895 and maybe see where that takes me. Should I try other primers? What could trying other primer do? I have GMM, cci41, cci br-4.
Lol kind of nervous using cfe223 up this high knowing about it being temperature sensitive and not knowing at what temperature it’s going to do something negative lol.

 

[Subwrx300]

2900 with Varget is no slouch. It's not super fast but considering that SD is important for long range precision, 25.9 Varget is a good load.

I'd use that until you can tinker with others powders that produce similar SDs and groups but at higher speed. Pushing an 80gr bullet at 2900+ is a good poke for a 224 caliber bullet. Still gets you to 1100+ supersonic. I wouldn't think twice about it; run Varget and shoot steel at distance!

 

[IHFarmer07]

2900 with Varget is no slouch. It's not super fast but considering that SD is important for long range precision, 25.9 Varget is a good load.

I'd use that until you can tinker with others powders that produce similar SDs and groups but at higher speed. Pushing an 80gr bullet at 2900+ is a good poke for a 224 caliber bullet. Still gets you to 1100+ supersonic. I wouldn't think twice about it; run Varget and shoot steel at distance!

Subwrx300: thanks!!! I will load more up to test again to verify and to shoot far at some steel finally!!! Very much appreciate the help by everyone here teaching me the ways of reloading and pointing me the right direction. I’ll keep everyone up to date.

 

[Subwrx300]

Subwrx300: thanks!!! I will load more up to test again to verify and to shoot far at some steel finally!!! Very much appreciate the help by everyone here teaching me the ways of reloading and pointing me the right direction. I’ll keep everyone up to date.

One thing I noticed is that .6 grains of Varget didnt really produce any real increase in velocity over 25.9/26.0. That likely means you've hit the limit of the amount of acceleration that Varget can provide safely. Different powders work by varying burn rate but also gas volume produced. It looks like Varget simply doesn't have anything left to add beyond 26gr so the only alternative to increase speed is a slower burning powder that has more energy later in the burn cycle. But man, 25.9/26 with a single digit SD is definitely the right way to go.

 

[IHFarmer07]

One thing I noticed is that .6 grains of Varget didnt really produce any real increase in velocity over 25.9/26.0. That likely means you've hit the limit of the amount of acceleration that Varget can provide safely. Different powders work by varying burn rate but also gas volume produced. It looks like Varget simply doesn't have anything left to add beyond 26gr so the only alternative to increase speed is a slower burning powder that has more energy later in the burn cycle. But man, 25.9/26 with a single digit SD is definitely the right way to go.

Thanks!.....I was pretty happy when I seen the numbers I had gotten this time around compared to what I first put on here when i first started to reload, which was crap loads/information because of my setup before.....I know it was a lot of money to buy the fx120i scale but damn for the results I’m getting since it and information you all let me see and other processes you all turned me on to, it was sure worth it and I’m happy with the results now! It just showed me also that my way of reloading before wasn’t very good. Also with the varget I only did 25.8g, 25.9, 26.0 and 26.1......my chicken scratch looks like 26.6 but it is actually 26.1gr and the g makes it look like a .6. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Subwrx300]

Thanks!.....I was pretty happy when I seen the numbers I had gotten this time around compared to what I first put on here when i first started to reload, which was crap loads/information because of my setup before.....I know it was a lot of money to buy the fx120i scale but damn for the results I’m getting since it and information you all let me see and other processes you all turned me on to, it was sure worth it and I’m happy with the results now! It just showed me also that my way of reloading before wasn’t very good. Also with the varget I only did 25.8g, 25.9, 26.0 and 26.1......my chicken scratch looks like 26.6 but it is actually 26.1gr and the g makes it look like a .6. Sorry for the confusion.

That makes more sense. I figured a .5gr of Varget would be the difference between good and BOOM if near max pressure.

I thought maybe you were testing a specific node you found.

 

[AP2020]

Good video. I've shot 3000+ rounds of 224V through two different barrels. I don't think the fliers are your doing necessarily. Of the last 6 barrels on AR platforms I've installed (224V, 223 Wylde and 6.5 CM) all of them have thrown fliers that are well outside of group avg for the first 150-200 rounds. After that, the fliers get closer and closer to group center.

The 224Vs with heavier 88/90gr bullets however seem to suffer more than the 223 Rems shooting 69smk/77smks. I am nearly convinced that this "phenomenon" is a product of the gas port wear during break-in. Some barrels (read: very few) may shoot lights out to start and stay there. But in discussion with a few match shooters and barrel makers for service rifle comps, some of them won't use a barrel in matches until at least 150-200rds down barrel to ensure consistency.

I think there is a link between heavy slow bullets and this increase in fliers. Mainly due to jacket disturbance as it passes over gas ports causing I'm balance in bullet or tearing portion of outer bearing surface.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for posting.

Interesting concept. I'll definitely consider it.

 

[chavezz556]

What mags are you guys running? I got a couple from mag warehouse and they took a dump already

 

[Subwrx300]

What mags are you guys running? I got a couple from mag warehouse and they took a dump already

I'm using PRI Mags. Like them overall but I did have 2 springs break on me, but they still functioned and PRI sent out replacement springs at no cost.

 

[chavezz556]

Thought I would toss up some data for H4350 with 88ELDMs. Ran OCW from 26.2-27.4 at 2.300" OAL. I should note that this barrel was at 100 rounds when I ran the OCW and 150 when I ran the seating depth test. In my experience, flyers don't settle down until around 200-250 rounds through the tube. In fact, you can see the difference below.

H4350 ran from 2702fps to 2800fps out of my 26" barrel. I get about 8.3fps per .1grain increment, and it's quite linear overall. That means if I can keep loads to +- .1gr, I should see an SD around 8-10, which is exactly what I found in the middle groups.

I selected 26.8gr, the largest group of the bunch and worst flyers. But it was also in the low SD node (26.4-27.0gr), had a fairly consistent POI relative to charge below and above. And lastly, had a tight cluster of 3 shots. I thought it would be a good test to my theory of barrel wear and flyers.


View attachment 7022373
Note the red circles for the flyers; 100% not me and I think it is bullets that become deformed/damaged by gas port getting tossed or flying apart.

Then ran a seating depth test from 2.240-2.300" in .010" increments. Target was shot left to right (2 groups in first warmup, then 5 shot groups for each seating depth). Interestingly, the flyers I have show up toward the end but are significantly closer to group center and becoming more predictable.

The last two groups are same as first two groups as a control (2.300" with 26.8gr H4350). I do this to see if I have a major change in groups from begining to end of session.
View attachment 7022375

As soon as I shot the 2.270" group that is a dead vertical line, I predicted the next group would tighten considerably and BANG! .6", .5", .7 and .6". The red circles flyers are getting much closer to group center and at 2.300" (last two groups) they disappeared.

Will reshoot next weekend to confirm, but this is my new winter load. CFE works great in summer but is too picky with temps at certain nodes, so I'm hoping I can see an improvement in temp sensitivity with this load as weather warms into summer.

How did you fit 27 grains of H4350 in a case? It was over flowing when I tried .. I might have been a little over that, but still I remember the top charge weight was almost spilling out

 

[Shawn1492]

What mags are you guys running? I got a couple from mag warehouse and they took a dump already

I have one of the AR Stoner mags from midway. Only have about 50 rounds through it but so far so good.

 

[JPatzig]

@AKGuide Any chance you received your OAL gauge?

 

[JPatzig]

Has anyone else seen their barrels act considerably different at different temps? I'm seeing big differences in group size and speeds when barrel is "cold" vs. "warmed up". The 2 groups below were identical loads. The barrel is a Bison Armory 24" 6.5t 1.25" thick bull barrel, I'd hope it would be more tolerable to heat than this.

Cold - only 2 warm up shots fired, then 4 shot group fired.

2835
2848
2845
2845

SD 5
ES 13

0.4" group

Hot - 5th group shot, barrel not too hot to hold hand on, but warmed up pretty good.

2825
2846
2853
2871

SD 19
ES 46

1.4" group

 

[IHFarmer07]

Learned some things this weekend of things I’ve heard and read about it but never experienced it actually.....well I loaded up my 25.9gn varget load for a verification shoot and to shoot some H4895 loads. I cleaned the barrel before using a powder cleaner and then I thought “hell I haven’t cleaned for copper fouling in awhile” so I did “wrong thing to do”. So I got set up shot a factory 88gn to clear the barrel of cleaning solutions and then went on to shoot, my 5 shot group sucked and es/sd was terrible.....thought what the f***. Finally after shooting 25 rounds I came back to the varget verification load and everything came back, accuracy and better es/sd #’s. To some they know this because they experienced it but it was my first time with it and Brian Whalen was right with what he told me of shooting about 20rnds after cleaning and such.

On to other things: H4895 and 80eldm’s.
Need to verify now but I pretty confident the 25, 25.1 will be the cats a** load as others have confirmed.
Finally got to use the primer fix “after my very hot cfe223 loads” that I had found on YouTube too.....works great!! Just don’t hit too hard or too many times!?

 

[chavezz556]

Anyone have a good H4895 load with 80 ELD's or 85 rdf's?

 

[Shawn1492]

Anyone have a good H4895 load with 80 ELD's or 85 rdf's?

With Starline brass around 25 is an accurate spot. That is a max charge start around 24.0 and go up in .2

 

[AKGuide]

@AKGuide Any chance you received your OAL gauge?

Yep got the gauge in and started tinkering with the 95’s again. I have yet to repeat the 0.5” groups with R17 but I just scrubbed the barrel with some sweets as I put a bunch of 77 LRX’s through it caribou hunting and thought maybe I had some copper fouling. It is weird with the 95’s though with the comparitor. The 88’s, 80’s and 77’s all measure 1.804” CBTO with the supplied case (case measures 1.256” with 0.330” insert and fired cases measure 1.264”), but the 95’s measure 1.787-1.788” CBTO. I can’t figure this one out. Best groups have been at 1.778” CBTO but are 2.353” oal and I just loaded more up to see if they will shoot with more jump using a modified Berger vld seating depth test ( 0.030” jump increments instead of 0.040”) I am going to try them at 0.010”, 0.040”, 0.070”, and 0.100” jump tomorrow. Hoping one of the loads with more jump will shoot as the modified mags are being pushed to the limits of reliability at 0.010” off. I have 80 eld-m’s and H4895 to play with as well but really want these 95’s to work as I have 440 left haha.

Here is what I have for the 80’s and H4895. I shot these after putting 20 rounds of 95’s with R17 down the tube which burns a little dirty so I may have to try them again as they didn’t group as well as I wanted but the numbers were great. I will have to try 0.035” and 0.045” jump to see if they tighten up.

24FEB2019 33.8F, 86%H, 30.71inhg
Virgin starline, H4895, GM205MAR, HbN coated 80eld-m @ 1.764” CBTO 0.040” jump, 18 clicks for lock back
25.1-2944, sd3
25.2-2933, sd9
25.3-2945, sd7

 

[chavezz556]

Yep got the gauge in and started tinkering with the 95’s again. I have yet to repeat the 0.5” groups with R17 but I just scrubbed the barrel with some sweets as I put a bunch of 77 LRX’s through it caribou hunting and thought maybe I had some copper fouling. It is weird with the 95’s though with the comparitor. The 88’s, 80’s and 77’s all measure 1.804” CBTO with the supplied case (case measures 1.256” with 0.330” insert and fired cases measure 1.264”), but the 95’s measure 1.787-1.788” CBTO. I can’t figure this one out. Best groups have been at 1.778” CBTO but are 2.353” oal and I just loaded more up to see if they will shoot with more jump using a modified Berger vld seating depth test ( 0.030” jump increments instead of 0.040”) I am going to try them at 0.010”, 0.040”, 0.070”, and 0.100” jump tomorrow. Hoping one of the loads with more jump will shoot as the modified mags are being pushed to the limits of reliability at 0.010” off. I have 80 eld-m’s and H4895 to play with as well but really want these 95’s to work as I have 440 left haha.

Here is what I have for the 80’s and H4895. I shot these after putting 20 rounds of 95’s with R17 down the tube which burns a little dirty so I may have to try them again as they didn’t group as well as I wanted but the numbers were great. I will have to try 0.035” and 0.045” jump to see if they tighten up.

24FEB2019 33.8F, 86%H, 30.71inhg
Virgin starline, H4895, GM205MAR, HbN coated 80eld-m @ 1.764” CBTO 0.040” jump, 18 clicks for lock back
25.1-2944, sd3
25.2-2933, sd9
25.3-2945, sd7

Thanks! I'm going to try 4895. It's temp stable and it's not super fine like CFE223

 

[Trappnp]

Honestly, I no longer have any faith in traditional lead core bullets. When I attempted to measure the base to ogive measurements for the Sierra 95gr SMK's, they were all over the place. It is the very nature of how lead core bullets are manufactured. Millions upon millions of bullets are stamped out on presses that run worn and/or brand new dies. The ogives on the lead core bullets will vary from lot to lot. I used to measure bullet ogives with a dial indicator mounted vertically on a granite base. However, that 1st group with the 95gr SMK did show some hope!

I was really struggling with focusing with my eyes, very strange phenomenon. If you noticed in some of the shot sequences, there is a long cut between shots. That was me trying to regain my eye focus. I am not sure if it was the 22 deg F temperature, the frozen confield stubble, laying in the prone position with an awkward head/neck alignment and the 6 layers of clothing I had on....

How much of a difference are you actually noticing (.01, .001, .0001)?

 

[AZIROC]

** I'll start off by apologizing for the random question I between all this.

So I finally got my scope for my 224V and after 6 months since the build has been done, I'll be able to shoot if Monday. It's a custom build but has a 20" larue rifle length barrel. Since it is still unfired I wanted to see what the chamber was at. after a few attempts, I'm getting between 2.30-2.33 inches and that's were the bullet just kissing the lands. Does this sound right or is this "out of spec" / used with a bad reamer. I tried looking but couldnt find anything.

That being said my ASC magazine I can load right to about 2.31-2.315. I prob coupe have gotten to 2.32 but the "fold" on the inside of the mag is sticking in some.

 

[binazone]

** I'll start off by apologizing for the random question I between all this.

So I finally got my scope for my 224V and after 6 months since the build has been done, I'll be able to shoot if Monday. It's a custom build but has a 20" larue rifle length barrel. Since it is still unfired I wanted to see what the chamber was at. after a few attempts, I'm getting between 2.30-2.33 inches and that's were the bullet just kissing the lands. Does this sound right or is this "out of spec" / used with a bad reamer. I tried looking but couldnt find anything.

That being said my ASC magazine I can load right to about 2.31-2.315. I prob coupe have gotten to 2.32 but the "fold" on the inside of the mag is sticking in some.

What bullet are you using to measure the COAL? In my case, using a Hornady OAL gauge and a 88 ELDM, by Bison Armory 20" (which BA states is a bit long on the freebore per SAMMI spec) measures 2.350" to the lands. Fortunately, using a windowed mag of my own making, I can load my 88s all the way out to that length but just to avoid any issues with the magwell, I seat them at 2.340" and they shoot .5" at 100 and are super out to 1200. My guess is you might not be in spec, but if it shoots greats all is good.

 

[AZIROC]

I'm using the 88 eldm's. I will say I dont have the hornady 224v case to measure the chamber. I just resized the case and inserted a bullet to 2.25. with no primer in, I just use a homemade "pusher" and go till I feel it kiss the lands.

I figure ill start at 2.30 and that would be a good start and be right around .025-.030 of a jump. If hornady comes out with a modified case maybe I'll try it and see if my chamber is other than want I got (for all I know it could be 2.35+)