25 Creedmoor Load Development

[prwillard2]

This thread is to discuss the 25 Creedmoor wildcat utilizing the 131gr Blackjack bullets and my observations during initial load development. I know there are many out there who have seen the Blackjack bullets and are considering getting a barrel chambered in 25 cal to utilize them. All items/parts/components purchased by myself for my own use, no endorsement implied. Load data for my rifle and my rifle alone, use with caution

My rifle:
Action: Bighorn TL3 Left Handed
Barrel: Krieger 25 Cal 1:7.25" Twist Blank - #17 Krieger Heavy Varmint Contour, finished at 26"
Chambering: TS Customs
Trigger: Bix'n Andy Tacsport
Stock: Manners T4A with mini-chassis
Optic: Premier 5-25x56, Gen2XR Reticle
Assembly: Myself utilizing the Short Action Customs modular barrel vice
Brass: Alpha Munitions, 6.5 Creedmoor SRP brass necked down to 25 Cal (0.283 bushing)
Dies: Redding Type S
Scale: FX-120i w/ autotrickler and Area 419 upgrades
Press: Forster Co-Ax
Chronograph: LabRadar

Major observations:
-This bullet is very easy to tune. Loaded up to 0.020" off the lands and had excellent results. Group 1 in the pictures is shots 2 through 7 down the new barrel. I cleaned the rifle after string 6 in the chart, which is what I believe led to the drop in velocity in the barrel.
-This cartridge prefers to have a full case capacity. Once I hit 42.2 grains of H4350, my extreme spread began to decrease considerably.
-Nearly zero felt recoil below 3000 FPS (it felt like i was shooting a 22LR). Granted, my rifle is 16 pounds, but for competitions I'd probably run the rifle at ~41.0gr for an easy 2850 FPS with zero recoil and nearly infinite brass life. (this velocity puts the round going subsonic at ~1375 yards)
-MAX LOAD: 44.8gr (Had to mortar tube open my bolt, however primers were not flattened)

�

Load Data Summary
Bullet Mfg:	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack	Blackjack
Bullet Description:	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal	25 Cal
Bullet Weight (gr):	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131	131
COAL:
CBTO:	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430	2.1430
Bullet Length (in.):	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434	1.434
Ballistic Coefficient (G1):
Ballistic Coefficient (G7):	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330	0.330
Brass (# of firings):	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)	Alpha (0)
Powder Mfg:	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon	Hodgdon
Powder Type:	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350	H4350
Powder Charge (gr):	40.0	40.3	40.6	40.9	41.2	41.5	41.8	42.1	42.4	42.7	43.0	43.3	43.6	43.9	44.2	44.5	44.8
Primer Mfg.	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI	CCI
Primer Type:	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4	BR-4
Caliber:	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25
Barrel Twist: 1:	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25	1:7.25
Firearm:	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3	25 Creedmoor TS Customs Bighorn TL3
String	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity	Velocity
1​	2,762	2,784	2,809	2,849	2,870	2,898	2,839	2,924	2,941	2,978	3,012	3,031	3,052	3,078	3,097	3,110	3,114
2​	2,765	2,792	2,804	2,829	2,848	2,881	2,876	2,904	2,930	2,973	3,008	3,028	3,055	3,071	3,094	3,112	3,140
3​	2,781	2,781	2,815	2,840	2,844	2,870	2,885	2,909	2,934	2,973	3,012	3,032	3,045	3,073		3,108
4​	2,778		2,813
5​	2,760		2,800
6​	2,767		2,829
7​	2,760
8​	2,769
9​	2,768
10​
Number of Shots:	9	3	6	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	2	3	2
Low:	2,760	2,781	2,800	2,829	2,844	2,870	2,839	2,904	2,930	2,973	3,008	3,028	3,045	3,071	3,094	3,108	3,114
High:	2,781	2,792	2,829	2,849	2,870	2,898	2,885	2,924	2,941	2,978	3,012	3,032	3,055	3,078	3,097	3,112	3,140
Average:	2,768	2,786	2,812	2,839	2,854	2,883	2,867	2,912	2,935	2,975	3,011	3,030	3,051	3,074	3,096	3,110	3,127
Velocity Change:		+18	+26	+28	+15	+29	-16	+46	+23	+40	+36	+20	+20	+23	+22	+15	+17
Change per 0.1gr powder		+6	+9	+9	+5	+10	-5	+15	+8	+13	+12	+7	+7	+8	+7	+5	+6
Extreme Spread (fps):	21.00	11.00	29.00	20.00	26.00	28.00	46.00	20.00	11.00	5.00	4.00	4.00	10.00	7.00	3.00	4.00	26.00
Standard Deviation (fps):	7.45	5.69	10.15	10.02	14.00	14.11	24.38	10.41	5.57	2.89	2.31	2.08	5.13	3.61	2.12	2.00	18.38
Latitude:	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33	33
Barometer:	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62	29.62
Temperature:	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59	59
Wind Direction:
Wind Speed (mph):
Target Direction (Azimuth):
Target Speed (mph):
Target Range (yards):	100	100	100	100	100	100		100	100	100	100	100		100	100	100	100
Estimated Velocity (fps):
Accuracy (MOA)	0.43			0.29	0.31	0.48	0.56			0.31		0.5

 

[257 Blackjack]

Your methodology looks to be top tier and the ES visualization is great too for a Load Dev routine.

I can't wait to see what you can do with this rifle at medium and long range!

 

[prwillard2]

Your methodology looks to be top tier and the ES visualization is great too for a Load Dev routine.

I can't wait to see what you can do with this rifle at medium and long range!

Headed to a long range match next weekend. Will report back!

 

[Olen_4504]

@longrange_lauber
@Patruck825

 

[257 Blackjack]

Headed to a long range match next weekend. Will report back!

I'd start with 0.340 G7 and pay attention to targets past 800 yards. Might have to up a little but 0.340 G7 should get you well on target for 1/2 - 3/4 mile.

 

[clyancey]

Thanks prwillard2. Good information. I'm definitely trying a 25 this next barrel; just haven't
decided on the host case. Most likely the creed. I'm a bit surprised you hit 3110 fps with H4350. How hot was that charge?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Hope my barrel gets to PVA this week. Hope their new reamer arrives soon after too. Going on an AI/AT match rig.

 

[Mordamer]

I have been shooting 25x47 since November last year and I have found a G7 of .341 to be very good all the way out to 1,300 yards. My velocity is about 2,930 FPS. Nothing touches the ballistics of these 131 Ace bullets unless you step up to a short magnum of some type. I have about 700 rounds fired on my barrel. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to burn it out.

 

[prwillard2]

Thanks prwillard2. Good information. I'm definitely trying a 25 this next barrel; just haven't
decided on the host case. Most likely the creed. I'm a bit surprised you hit 3110 fps with H4350. How hot was that charge?

3110 FPS was a pretty hot load, starting getting some ejector marks, heavier bolt lift. Probably wouldn't run higher than 44.0gr in this rifle/barrel combo. But may be able to get some more speed with RL26, which is next on the docket for testing.

 

[257 Blackjack]

3110 FPS was a pretty hot load, starting getting some ejector marks, heavier bolt lift. Probably wouldn't run higher than 44.0gr in this rifle/barrel combo. But may be able to get some more speed with RL26, which is next on the docket for testing.

Please let me know when you get that done. Great to compare to our small testing with RL26.

 

[86alaskan]

Excellent write up, glad to see another great 25 creed in action. Hoping to get mine up and running soon, I'll definitely be using this write up as a base line for my load development. Thanks

 

[longrange_lauber]

Following. Looking at building my first custom rifle and the 25 creed peaked my interest. Looks like you got some of those 131gr scootin' downrange!

 

[nrspence]

Great Info, thanks for sharing. I am having a 25 creedmoor barrel getting spun up now and going to have a 25 PRC done in the next month or two. Can’t wait to shoot the 131 ace.

 

[clyancey]

Second the RL26! Gave me amazing velocity in my 6 Creed. Never got accuracy but I'm pretty sure I got a sub-par barrel. Couldn't get accuracy with anything. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bear24]

Thanks @prwillard2 , This is a great presentation of the data you gathered! One word of caution about RL26, it gives great velocity but can get way over pressure with temperatures rising in the summer time. I have heard RL16 is much more temp stable but I don't know that first hand.

 

[prwillard2]

Thanks @prwillard2 , This is a great presentation of the data you gathered! One word of caution about RL26, it gives great velocity but can get way over pressure with temperatures rising in the summer time. I have heard RL16 is much more temp stable but I don't know that first hand.

I've got some RL16, perhaps I'll try that out instead of RL26. Have some RL17 as well. RL16 shot well in my 6.5 Creedmoor that I had, but usually used small mag primers for it. More experimentation is needed.

 

[86alaskan]

I'm going to start with H4350 but also have 10lbs of rl16 to try. I've found it to be about the same burn rate but give better velocity with 140's in my 260rem. If I can eeek out a bit more speed safely from the 25, I'll be happy with RL16

 

[longrange_lauber]

I would say try the RL16. From what I've learned it's almost as temp stable as H4350 but should give you some more velocity

 

[tho98027]

What is the coal of this cartridge with a 20 thou jump?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Great write up! You added several more data points to my own research. I have simply noticed over the years that cartridges seem to be the most tunable right around 2% off the point where pressure appears. 2% off seems to always be in the immediate area of the sweet spot.

You started hitting pressure at about 44 grains, and 2% off would be 43.1 grains.
At 42.7 grains your SD dropped to 2.89 and your fps per 0.1 grain was 13 fps.
At 43 grains your SD was 2.31 and your fps per 0.1 grains was 12 fps.
At 43.3 grains your SD was 2.08, but your fps per 0.1 grains dropped to 7 fps and stayed low on out.

So, at this seating depth, your load hit maximum efficiency of the burn rate at 43.3 grains. The group opened up just slightly, but could probably be tweaked just a couple of thousandths to tighten it back up. So my prediction would have been 43.1 grains and actual was 43.3 grains.

Thanks for the info!

 

[prwillard2]

What is the coal of this cartridge with a 20 thou jump?

I'll have to measure one of the rounds, but I rarely measure COAL because of bullet tip variations. I'll measure a couple when I get home and get back to you. Easily fit in all of my mags though, so I'm going to guess somewhere in the 2.8xx range.

 

[tho98027]

Thank you. Just wondering if it will work in an AI mag or if it requires a something similar to an accurate mag that allows up to a 2.94 coal.

 

[prwillard2]

Thank you. Just wondering if it will work in an AI mag or if it requires a something similar to an accurate mag that allows up to a 2.94 coal.

I was running these in an AI AX doublestack mag.

 

[canezach]

I was running these in an AI AX doublestack mag.

Just curious, but is there enough room to seat the bullets out a little further in your AX mag if you have to chase the lands? At your current seating depth, does that put the bullet above the neck/shoulder junction? I'm having a 25 Creedmoor barrel chambered for my Desert Tech and I have some room in the DT mags, to seat the bullets a little long, but I figured I'd ask before jumping into a prefit for my Bighorn as well.

 

[prwillard2]

Thank you. Just wondering if it will work in an AI mag or if it requires a something similar to an accurate mag that allows up to a 2.94 coal.

Measured a random sampling of 5 rounds. Came in averaging 2.841 +/- 0.003 COAL.

 

[prwillard2]

Just curious, but is there enough room to seat the bullets out a little further in your AX mag if you have to chase the lands? At your current seating depth, does that put the bullet above the neck/shoulder junction? I'm having a 25 Creedmoor barrel chambered for my Desert Tech and I have some room in the DT mags, to seat the bullets a little long, but I figured I'd ask before jumping into a prefit for my Bighorn as well.

I've got quite a bit of space to run longer in my AX mag. Max internal close to 2.980, my rounds at 2.841.

 

[tho98027]

Thanks for the measurements! Greatly appreciated.

 

[canezach]

Not to threadjack, but I received my order of the 131s. They are extremely long. 131 on the left next to a 140 ELDM. I weighed a random handful on my FX120i and the twenty or so were fairly consistent at 130.98 grains. A few at 131 even, a few at 130.96. My 25 cal comparator insert hadn't arrived in the mail yet, so I couldn't measure base to ogive, but lengths were very consistent at 1.415".

 

[tho98027]

I forgot to ask in my previous post. At a coal or 2.841, where is the bullets bearing/boat tail junction in relation to the neck/shoulder of the case? Is it still above or below the case neck/shoulder?

 

[prwillard2]

I forgot to ask in my previous post. At a coal or 2.841, where is the bullets bearing/boat tail junction in relation to the neck/shoulder of the case? Is it still above or below the case neck/shoulder?

I'll get some more data/pics when I get home.

 

[prwillard2]

I forgot to ask in my previous post. At a coal or 2.841, where is the bullets bearing/boat tail junction in relation to the neck/shoulder of the case? Is it still above or below the case neck/shoulder?

I've got what you're looking for.

COAL: 2.841
Alpha 6.5 Creed Brass neck length after sizing: ~0.2745
Bullet bearing/boat tail length seated: 0.2830

Attached pics so you can see what I'm talking about. I've got a little wiggle room to load longer if needed. I've always been told that you want the bearing surface to be as long as the caliber is in diameter.

 

[86alaskan]

Hey @prwillard2 what's the round count you're seeing these speeds at? Granted I'm right at the beginning, my 7 twist lilja was running about 100fps lower at the same charges. I'm using starline SRP brass with cci 450 primers. The lilja is an 7 twist at 26" long. I got a very nice flat spot and very low es/SD at 43.2-43.5 h4350 giving me 2930fps. I've got 30yds on the barrel, so I'm hoping for a nice speed up soon.

 

[prwillard2]

Hey @prwillard2 what's the round count you're seeing these speeds at? Granted I'm right at the beginning, my 7 twist lilja was running about 100fps lower at the same charges. I'm using starline SRP brass with cci 450 primers. The lilja is an 7 twist at 26" long. I got a very nice flat spot and very low es/SD at 43.2-43.5 h4350 giving me 2930fps. I've got 30yds on the barrel, so I'm hoping for a nice speed up soon.

My first listed load is with zero rounds on the barrel. Shot the first round to make sure my rifle wouldn't blow up (my first time installing my own barrel), then the next 9. Then the rest of the rounds.

My rifle is currently sitting at 97 rounds fired total after doing some plinking with it and confirming my load out to 300 yards.

I'm also using Alpha brass. Could be a case volume thing.

 

[86alaskan]

Wow, ok thanks. I've got rl16 and rl26 to try, I'm hoping to get around 3050 for my long range use. Ill run that 2900 for my prs matches, it'll do just fine there. I hope this barrel speeds up at least 50fps, more would definitely be better. have you seen a speed up yet or at all?

 

[prwillard2]

Wow, ok thanks. I've got rl16 and rl26 to try, I'm hoping to get around 3050 for my long range use. Ill run that 2900 for my prs matches, it'll do just fine there. I hope this barrel speeds up at least 50fps, more would definitely be better. have you seen a speed up yet or at all?

My last 6 rounds (rounds 92-97) were with 42.7gr of H4350 at the 2.841 COAL as above. Average velocity according to my labradar was 2981, which is only 6 FPS faster than my test above (rounds 35-37).

Accuracy was dead on at 300 yards.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Any body done any LD with 26 or 16 yet?

 

[86alaskan]

Any body done any LD with 26 or 16 yet?

I'm loading up a couple ladders to test next range trip, most likely next weekend. I'll be doing both

 

[tho98027]

Thank you prwillard2. Thank you for taking the time to take the pics. Greatly appreciated!

 

[Conrad]

I don’t have my math in front of me but to get the boat tail junction say .020” over the N-S junction I am loading more like 2.865”. I have the mag length to play, but I think everyone’s results are speaking for themselves.

Currently shooting 43 gr H4350 and getting 3020 FPS from a 26” barrel.

 

[86alaskan]

I loaded my loads to the same BTO length that prwillard did, making sure not to be into the lands. I haven't bothered with measuring the actual max OAL, but will shortly. At that length, though, my 43.5 load was an honest to god sub .200" group for three shots, with 2 of three thrown loads measuring the exact same speed and the third only 2fps different. At that 43.5gr I was just able to feel the powder as the bullet hit bottom seating depth.

 

[prwillard2]

I loaded my loads to the same BTO length that prwillard did, making sure not to be into the lands. I haven't bothered with measuring the actual max OAL, but will shortly. At that length, though, my 43.5 load was an honest to god sub .200" group for three shots, with 2 of three thrown loads measuring the exact same speed and the third only 2fps different. At that 43.5gr I was just able to feel the powder as the bullet hit bottom seating depth.

Good to hear the data is working for you as well. The 43.5gr with powder hitting the bullet makes sense if you're using Starline brass. They advertised when they first started making brass (I had a bunch of their 308 brass) that they were making cases more robust than others. This frequently would result in less case volume.

At the end of the day though, biggest thing is making sure there is accuracy. And at a 0.200 group I'd say you've achieved it!

 

[86alaskan]

True, I like that the brass is more stout, but sure would like that touch of extra capacity so I could safely hit that 3050 mark. Maybe once I'm all broken in and trying RL16 and RL26, maybe I can get a safe 3050+ load for some mile shooting.

 

[prwillard2]

True, I like that the brass is more stout, but sure would like that touch of extra capacity so I could safely hit that 3050 mark. Maybe once I'm all broken in and trying RL16 and RL26, maybe I can get a safe 3050+ load for some mile shooting.

Word of warning on the RL16, I tried some in a 6.5 creed I had a while back. Used mag primers for my SRP brass as that's what most people said to use. Did not end up getting very far as my first load was causing a sticky bolt and on the recommendation of my bullet guy (Hammer Bullets) I switched to Varget and was getting 3000FPS with the Hammer Hunter bullets.

Are you planning on using regular primers or mag primers with your RL16/26? I haven't gotten around to testing either and I keep getting slammed at work.

 

[86alaskan]

I've been using the SR mag primers, CCI450, for the most part. I do also have a couple thou GMM 205m primers that I may get around to. If that'll drop my pressure spike so that I can swing a few more FPS, I'll definitely switch over. I may anyway because I get the occasional light strike in my tikka with the harder primers. I'm hoping for good things with the RL26, I was able to cram 50gr into my 260 with a 130gr Norma and got 3000fps with a 22" barrel. I never had pressure problems with the 26 either, I think it's bulky and slow enough that you can't physically fit enough into the case to get over pressure.

 

[prwillard2]

I may anyway because I get the occasional light strike in my tikka with the harder primers.

The reason I'm at 97 rounds is because I had 3 failure to function rounds with CCI BR-4 primers. I bought a brick of the SRP Gold Medals and probably going to switch over to those. Hoping I don't have to do all new load development with the different primer.

 

[oldnmkid]

Great write up. I got my barrel today, can hardly wait to start shooting those blackjack's out of my 25-284.

 

[nrspence]

Any body done any LD with 26 or 16 yet?

I have a 7 twist, 25inch long xcaliber barrel, with 43 grains of RL16 I am at 2930fps, 60 rounds through it so far. Alpha munitions brass. The .340 g7 BC was money at 1000yrds today. I hope my barrel speeds up some. I have not seen pressure signs yet, but I imagine I am close.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Any body done any LD with 26 or 16 yet?

In virgin Peterson brass sized with a .281 bushing and a 28” Bartlein I was not getting any gains with R26 compared to H4350. I will have slightly more case capacity in fire formed brass but it doesn’t appear to be as advantageous as in a 6.5CM

 

[longrange_lauber]

I see you're using Redding type S die with a .283 bushing. What seating die are you using? Can you just use a 6 or 6.5 seating die for these? Pardon the noob question

 

[MarkLeupold]

I see you're using Redding type S die with a .283 bushing. What seating die are you using? Can you just use a 6 or 6.5 seating die for these? Pardon the noob question

Yes, the seating die is just the 6 or 6.5 seater on these. You can get a 25 cal seating stem sometimes for your die, but from BlackJack's recommendation, it's not necessary.