Range Report 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I can't wait for the Hodgdon Superperformance powder to come out and try with the '06 and 208s either as Hodgdon already lists it in the burn rate chart and it is down there by RL22.

 

[SPAK]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't wait for the Hodgdon Superperformance powder to come out and try with the '06 and 208s either as Hodgdon already lists it in the burn rate chart and it is down there by RL22. </div></div>

That would be interesting to see the results....I've tried both rl 17 and 22. I like 22 better. Fills the case better, but it's temp sensitive. Wonder what the hodgdon powder will be like....

 

[Kaisersose]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

tag

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

any updates on this testing? Has anyone verified the RL17 temp stability?

 

[LOBO]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

MM,

how do you think RL17 would compare to RL15 when using 155 gr Scenars?

BTW, great info!

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: howdydoit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any updates on this testing? Has anyone verified the RL17 temp stability? </div></div>

In the .308 Winchester/208gr A-max/RL17 mega thread kombayatch made a post comparing the temp sensitivity of RL17 to some other powders a few pages in. It was temp sensitive like the other Alliant powders.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

From what I understand, the Superformance will be the same 3rd gen "extreme" formulation as IMR 8208. VERY temp insensitive.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LOBO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MM,

how do you think RL17 would compare to RL15 when using 155 gr Scenars?

BTW, great info! </div></div>

I figure RL17 should be able to get more speed for sure. I was getting 3030 fps with 56gr RL15 under moly'd scenars, in the 22.5" bbl without pushing it. I wouldn't be surprised to see another 100 fps pretty easily.

I recently loaded up some 168gr Barnes TSX over 60gr RL17. That gives 2900 fps in my 20" sporter, 30-06.

I've got some 208s loaded over 55gr RL17 to test in the heavy 30-06, just got to get out there and do it. Hunting season is open here, and that calls for some extra caution when shooting on the public land.

 

[vinconco]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I have had really good luck with 155 scenars and RE-17 over a wide range of conditions.


155 Scenar
59gr RE-17
winchester cases
fed 210M
2.668" oal w/ stoney point gauge
3185 @ 35 degrees 3200 @ 85 degrees

26" Rock 5R barrel

 

[LOBO]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17


This is what I am getting now in my 30-06 with RL-15 under the 155 grain Scenar. Barrel is a Broughton 5C 1/12 & is 28".

Win brass
Scenar 155 gr
CCI BR2
RL-15 @ 52 grains
3.255" coal

Hi - 3132 fps
Lo - 3082 fps
ES - 50 fps
SD - 26 fps
Average - 3102 fps

---------------------------------------------------------------

Win brass
Scenar 155 gr
Federal 210M
RL-15 @ 51 grains
3.255" coal


Hi - 3073 fps
Lo - 3029 fps
ES - 44 fps
SD - 18 fps
Average - 3052 fps

---------------------------------------------------------------

Win brass
Scenar 155 gr
Federal 210M
RL-15 @ 51.3 grains
3.255" coal


Hi - 3101 fps
Lo - 3059 fps
ES - 42 fps
SD - 16 fps
Average - 3077 fps

---------------------------------------------------------------

Win brass
Scenar 155 gr
Federal 210M
RL-15 @ 51.6 grains
3.255" coal


Hi - 3147 fps
Lo - 3103 fps
ES - 44 fps
SD - 18 fps
Average - 3123 fps

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Supposed to go to the range tomorrow, might go today if it's not windy. Have 3 rounds each in half grain increments from 52 to 56 loaded to just touch lands. Hoping the node is 55-56. New chrono, any tips?

Something interesting, touching the lands still feeds from magazine.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Tim-

Have you shot 208's before? If you know that touching the lands is good in your rifle then by all means run with it. If you're just starting with them though, push those bullets in the case about 0.010" further for a slight jump. I've fired these in about a half dozen 30c rifles and they've all shot the best from 0.010-0.025" jump.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

bohem, I have shot the Berger 210s kissing the lands, but have not shot the 208s yet. I asked this very jump question in the 208, .308 thread.

It is a Remington 700 with 1:10 twist shooting PMC brass, and shot the 210 Bergers at just over .3 MOA over H4350. Not bad for a factory sporter 22 1/2" barrel.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

The 210 Bergers and the 208 Amax are plenty different. I'd suggest that small jump from above, the 210's like to be kissing the lands in my 30-06 but with the same setup in the 208's I got mediocre results.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Thanks! I'll do that. Did .01 work the best on average?

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Shot 8 Berger 210s over 55g R17 over a chrono today. All shots were about .005" jump to lands. No pressure visible or felt in bolt.

#1- 2768 Cold bore shot

#2- 2748 warmin up

#3- 2711
#4- 2702
#5- 2706
#6- 2709...

The first two were much higher than all the others. Shots 3-8 were all real close, within single digit FPS, but the first two shots really spread it out.

Average turned out to be 2723

ES was 66.75
SD was 24.39

Unfortunately, everything was ruined by those first two cold gun shots. Anyone have any input on this? I'm going to ladder tomorrow from 52 up to 56 with 208g AMAXs over the chrono while doing 3 shot 200meter groups, but am going to warm her up first with some 165 SSTs to get some consistent initial velocity readings for the ladder.

TG

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I load my 30-06's with them 0.01" jump and several rifles have been excellent there.

 

[1luckeyt/a]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Has anybody had a chance to shoot the 220gr SMK in a 30-06 with RE17?

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1luckeyt/a</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Has anybody had a chance to shoot the 220gr SMK in a 30-06 with RE17? </div></div>

I don't see the point. The 220 SMK's BC is lower than the 208's and it has a much longer bearing surface, speeds and range will suffer. Unless you can't get 210 Bergers, 210 JLK L-BT's or 208 Amax's to shoot in your rifle I'd pass to something else.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I'm not having good luck at all. I was shooting the other day in high winds and it was rather chilly and the round shot great. I didn't measure the groups as they were only 3 rnd groups and not worth measuring, but they were between .5 MOA and 1 MOA at 200 meters.

The wind was Left to Right at 15-20mph with gusts to 25 and my goal was mainly to chrono. I ended up running out of light before I was finished with my rounds.

30-06 11/16/2010
208g AMAX WINDS OF 15-20 W-E GUSTS TO 25
Reloader 17

55g
2694 AVG: 2682
2683 ES: 24.96
2669 SD: 12.52

55.2g
2725 AVG: 2716
2711 ES: 14.03
2712 SD: 7.81

55.4g
2721 AVG: 2713
2706 ES: 14.61
2711 SD: 7.61

55.6g
2793 AVG: 2765
2758 ES: 48.78
2744 SD: 25.23

55.8g
2743 AVG: 2730
2736 ES: 32
2711 SD: 16.82

After this, I started having chrono problems, and groups started opening up. I think the winds and cool temps (it was around 60*F) helped shoot good groups by keeping my barrel cool. I couldn't get it to heat up for nothing.

But, I went back the next day with 6 rounds at each of these first four increments (55g-55.6g). On 11-16, the best group was around .5 MOA at 55.4g. On 11-17 it was 70* and dead calm. After the first couple shots my barrel stayed hot and I couldn't group for nothing. Best group of six was around 2 MOA and that was the first group of 55g and I again ran out of daylight. I tried to not let rounds "cook" and felt I shot well on my part. The groups didn't think so though.

55g- 6 rnds
ES 36.77
SD 13.71

55.2- possible chrono issues...
ES 122.4
SD 39.94

55.4
chrono started failing.
ES 75
SD 33.66

I will continue to test shooting different ways with big breaks inbetween shots for barrel cooling and other things to see what my rifle likes best.

I was shooting .3 MOA at 200m with Berger 210s over light loads of h4350 with 5 min breaks in between shots for comparison.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

In the 30-06 case I go with 1.0 gr incremental charge increases. I don't think .1 or .2 gr is enough to get relevant changes, especially in cool weather.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody had a chance to shoot the 220gr SMK in a 30-06 with RE17? </div></div>

I just ordered a couple hundred of the 220gr's, I couldn't find any 208 Amax's and the 210's and 240's SMK are a bit more than I'm willing to pay.

I also ordered 5lbs of Re17, so I'll be trying out the combination soon.

Where are you guys finding the 208's?? I got excited by them and built a 30-06 up to try them out, but now I can't find them anywhere.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Supply on 208s is looking pretty thin for a few more months.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Whats going on with them? Are they just that popular?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

They are tough to beat for LR when you compare price, results, and BC.

I think Hornady is real busy right now too, retooling for new jackets, and BTHP designs.

 

[nomad 1]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Going to try 200 SMK it has a .600 BC @ 2500fps

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

IM still worried about the temp sensitivity of RL17.

MM is there any other powder you would try for the heavy pills, like H4350 or H4831/sc?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

RL22 works very well with 190gr+ bullets in the 30-06.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I'm sure many powders in the medium-slow burn rate would work well. I just happen to have been using the Alliant RL-series of powders for some time, and that is my comfort zone.

VV N560, and Norma MRP should excel with the 200+gr bullets in the 30-06, but the price of those powders kinda steers me away.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Howdydoit- 4831sc is much more temp stable than RL22 or RL17 and the burn rate is close to RL22. 22 is great stuff for the 30-06 with heavies though... damn fine stuff.

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

think once I get my 06 built ill use 4831 with the heavy pills. I like the temp stablilty and I want consistance above speed.

Thanks so much for the help.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I have had the best luck to date with 4831 in my current '06, figured I would try the RL17 and RL22 out with my new barrel though.

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dareposte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had the best luck to date with 4831 in my current '06, figured I would try the RL17 and RL22 out with my new barrel though. </div></div>

How long was your barrel?
What kind of velocity did u see?
How heavy was your powder charge?

Id like a few specifics if you dont mind.

 

[Marksman]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

I had similar results on a warm day from my old Winchester 30-06 Heavy Barrel. I had to go back down to 52 grains to be safe. HOWEVER, seeing that others are getting better results, I'm tempted to have my next custom build be a nice 30-06 to tight tolerances to take advantage of this combo.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand, the Superformance will be the same 3rd gen "extreme" formulation as IMR 8208. VERY temp insensitive. </div></div>

Highly doubt it. First it's a ball powder, and second, Hodgdon isn't touting it as being temperature stable in the descritption on their page. Its something they would certainly be advertising if it was.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I doubt it too. The tech I had on the phone was somewhat more than just plain "elusive" as to exactly what had been done to the powder to make it temp insensitive. Maybe they are touting that it is less sensitive than their other ball powders. Maybe just more marketing hype. I'm quite certain I don't need another powder! I'm tempted nonetheless just to see if in fact it is worth the while.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

The reason I'm skeptical of temperature insensitivity in ball powders is because the treatment is a coating, as I understand it (hence the green coloring). A coating will be fairly consistent and uniform in terms of percentage weight on a stick powder, as the sticks are all pretty uniform in size.

However, with a ball powder, the balls vary a lot in size. The formula for surface area of a sphere is a squared function, while volume is a cubed function. Double the diameter of a sphere, you increase its surface area by 4, but its volume (and weight) by 8. If you assume the coating is consistent in thickness, the sphere that is half the size of the other will have twice the percentage of coating (by weight). One would think this would affect its burn rate in some way. And, if you can't control the size of the balls, then you can't control the burn rate of the powder when applying a coating.

Also, the balls are much smaller than most sticks (even H332), so they will have more surface area and a higher percentage of coating by weight. Which should be great temperature stability, but not as great for velocity since there will less actual powder.

This is only speculation based on my understanding of the process... it could be way off. We will see...

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

According to the burnrate chart it is right with H4831. Think it should work pretty well for this bullet and case. I think I will try a comparison between RL17, RL22, H4831SC and Superperformance. RL25 looked promising from what onemoretime posted but I don't want to go too crazy with the powder purchasing.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I've got some RL 25, now if I could just find some of the 208's I'd be back in the game.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

fyi, RL-25 is extremely temperature sensitive. I proof tested my rifle when I did the temperature test with that powders.

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fyi, RL-25 is extremely temperature sensitive. I proof tested my rifle when I did the temperature test with that powders. </div></div>

Is it worse than 17 and 22? I saw your results when comparing Varget to RL17 and it was an eye opener. I like the velocities that RL 17 and 22 can bring to the table with the heavy .30 bullets but it would be a plus to find a powder that could do the same but not be so unstable. Maybe 4831SC? Probably won't try the Superperformance powder after all since it is a ball powder and isn't the same one that Hornady is using in .308. This one seems optimized for magnums with light bullets.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I'm getting pressure signs with RL22 at the same time that I hit the 105% fill point and a crunch seating. RL25 I feel is going to be too slow for the 208 in a 30-06 case, that's why I never tried it. Just some thoughts for those thinking about using it.

H4831sc is in the que for a serious test plan on my rifle. I'm looking to get some better temp stability than what I've currently gotten out of the RL22. The load in RL22 shoots bugholes, the problem is that the bugholes move up and down the impact burm as the temp changes over the months.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fyi, RL-25 is extremely temperature sensitive. I proof tested my rifle when I did the temperature test with that powders. </div></div>

Is it worse than 17 and 22? I saw your results when comparing Varget to RL17 and it was an eye opener. I like the velocities that RL 17 and 22 can bring to the table with the heavy .30 bullets but it would be a plus to find a powder that could do the same but not be so unstable. Maybe 4831SC? Probably won't try the Superperformance powder after all since it is a ball powder and isn't the same one that Hornady is using in .308. This one seems optimized for magnums with light bullets. </div></div>

There are some of my RL-25 results in the 6mm Crusader thread comparing it to Retumbo and H1000, I believe. Its much worse than RL-17. I have not tested RL-22.

Temperature stability and velocity are really opposing forces. You tend to have to give up a little of one to get more of the other with current powder technology. I favor temperature stability because not having my velocity change and my load un-tune on me are bigger advantages than added velocity. If you look at the reduction in wind drift an extra 100 fps gives you for a particular bullet, it really isn't that significant in practical terms. Definitely not worth trading consistency for, and less of a factor the better you are at reading conditions. I would take Onemoretime's H4350 load over the RL-17 one. H4831SC is worth looking at.

 

[Sapper06]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

It is damn near impossible to see pressure signs with RL 22 in an -06. A compressed load with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets only generates 48 ksi. I have a conformal transudcer set-up at my disposal and can not get a high pressure load (meaning over pressure) out of RL 22

 

[Viper65fr]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some target pics here. I'll just post a link as they do not meet Frank's guidelines for posting on the forum.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/30-06%20Targets/ </div></div>

Thank you very interesting

 

[Viper65fr]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice to see that this thread is still active, albeit not so much as the .308 one.

My .30-06 project/build is almost done. Waiting on the barrel and scope now and have ordered a custom reamer to launch the 208s @ 3.5" COAL since <span style="color: #FF0000">I will be feeding from .300 WM AICS mags (3.65 inside length). </span> I will try 17 and 22 and see which one is faster. Maybe, just maybe 22 will win out with the extra case capacity and longer (28") barrel. </div></div>

Would love to ear more about that idea

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is damn near impossible to see pressure signs with RL 22 in an -06. A compressed load with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets only generates 48 ksi. I have a conformal transudcer set-up at my disposal and can not get a high pressure load (meaning over pressure) out of RL 22 </div></div>

Curious how you can make this ascertation. I've blown primer pockets out of the back of my Win brass at 61.0gr of RL22, Wolf primers, 208 Amax seated 0.010" (3.403" oal) off the lands.

180's I would tend to agree with you, but the 200-210's it's not a blanket rule. Maybe your rifle can't do it, but I know that mine can and I know 2 other guys who have found upper limits around 60.8-61.5gr with the 208 Amax.

 

[SPAK]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is damn near impossible to see pressure signs with RL 22 in an -06. A compressed load with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets only generates 48 ksi. I have a conformal transudcer set-up at my disposal and can not get a high pressure load (meaning over pressure) out of RL 22 </div></div>

Curious how you can make this ascertation. I've blown primer pockets out of the back of my Win brass at 61.0gr of RL22, Wolf primers, 208 Amax seated 0.010" (3.403" oal) off the lands.

180's I would tend to agree with you, but the 200-210's it's not a blanket rule. Maybe your rifle can't do it, but I know that mine can and I know 2 other guys who have found upper limits around 60.8-61.5gr with the 208 Amax.
</div></div>

I've had my chamber redone in my '06 and using lapua brass my max is right around 57.5gr RL 22 with the 208 amax seated .02" off the lands. At this point I start seeing Ejector marks. at 58grs I get case head expansion and primer pockets will enlarge.

Every rifle is different but I too have seen pressure signs and have blown primers with RL22 with the 200+gr bullets.

 

[Sapper06]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I am only relating the data from multiple barrels on a SAAMI conformal pressure transducer set-up.

Blown primers/cratered primers/ejector marks are not always pressure signs. NO I would not keep loading hotter if I saw these signs, but they are not always over pressure signs. By overpressure I mean any load where the maximum average pressure exceeds SAAMI specs.

I also agree that all rifles are different,but most shoot within a range that we all can agree will provide similiar results, hence why loading manuals work and we all share data.

My personal -06 flattens primers at 62 grains with 180s and at 59 grains with 200s, but they are not overpressure.

Merry Christmas to all

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am only relating the data from multiple barrels on a SAAMI conformal pressure transducer set-up.

Blown primers/cratered primers/ejector marks are not always pressure signs. NO I would not keep loading hotter if I saw these signs, but they are not always over pressure signs. By overpressure I mean any load where the maximum average pressure exceeds SAAMI specs.

I also agree that all rifles are different,but most shoot within a range that we all can agree will provide similiar results, hence why loading manuals work and we all share data.

My personal -06 flattens primers at 62 grains with 180s and at 59 grains with 200s, but they are not overpressure.

Merry Christmas to all
</div></div>

How is a blown primer on a properly headspaced rifle not an overpressure sign?



I guess it's the 48ksi that makes me wonder more than anything, it also seems somewhat dangerous to advise people that they can't sneeze cases with 200gr bullets in a 30-06 and RL22.