Range Report 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

[Sapper06]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am only relating the data from multiple barrels on a SAAMI conformal pressure transducer set-up.

Blown primers/cratered primers/ejector marks are not always pressure signs. NO I would not keep loading hotter if I saw these signs, but they are not always over pressure signs. By overpressure I mean any load where the maximum average pressure exceeds SAAMI specs.

I also agree that all rifles are different,but most shoot within a range that we all can agree will provide similiar results, hence why loading manuals work and we all share data.

My personal -06 flattens primers at 62 grains with 180s and at 59 grains with 200s, but they are not overpressure.

Merry Christmas to all
</div></div>





I guess it's the 48ksi that makes me wonder more than anything, it also seems somewhat dangerous to advise people that they can't sneeze cases with 200gr bullets in a 30-06 and RL22. </div></div>

Like I said, a blown primer does not mean overpressure! I have not advised anyone to keep stuffing powder in a case until it blows... I said, it is damn near impossible to reach 60 KSI in an 06 case with RL 22. Can you do it if you try real real hard; yes you can. I am not talking out my butt on this either... I have the priveledge of looking at this data every stinking day. I have the proffesional equipment that tells me what is overpressure and what is not. I can measure a firing pin hole and find that it is larger than I like to see them and know that my blown primer is due to a rifle problem and not from exceeding SAAMI maximum average pressure! I can also hardness test brass and find out where it lies on the scale and this tells me a whole lot about case stretch, extractor marks from gas guns, and ejector marks.

Headspace only tells a little bit of the story. Not only do we have to worry about how long a case is compared to the chamber, but we also have to worry about how fat the case is compared to the chamber. Additionally, how flat is the case compared to the bolt face. If either are concave or convex by just a few thou, you can wind up with problems.

Why is it that we are willing to believe testimonials, but not hard data?

Bohem, I do not know your resume, just like you do not know mine. I read your post and evaluate what is said and test what is presented befoe I make a final determination. Please extend me the same courtesy. If you have all the required gauging and equipment to test this stuff, then please present objective statistical data.


thanks,

Mike

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am only relating the data from multiple barrels on a SAAMI conformal pressure transducer set-up.

Blown primers/cratered primers/ejector marks are not always pressure signs. NO I would not keep loading hotter if I saw these signs, but they are not always over pressure signs. By overpressure I mean any load where the maximum average pressure exceeds SAAMI specs.

I also agree that all rifles are different,but most shoot within a range that we all can agree will provide similiar results, hence why loading manuals work and we all share data.

My personal -06 flattens primers at 62 grains with 180s and at 59 grains with 200s, but they are not overpressure.

Merry Christmas to all
</div></div>





I guess it's the 48ksi that makes me wonder more than anything, it also seems somewhat dangerous to advise people that they can't sneeze cases with 200gr bullets in a 30-06 and RL22. </div></div>

Like I said, a blown primer does not mean overpressure! I have not advised anyone to keep stuffing powder in a case until it blows... I said, it is damn near impossible to reach 60 KSI in an 06 case with RL 22. Can you do it if you try real real hard; yes you can. I am not talking out my butt on this either... I have the priveledge of looking at this data every stinking day. I have the proffesional equipment that tells me what is overpressure and what is not. I can measure a firing pin hole and find that it is larger than I like to see them and know that my blown primer is due to a rifle problem and not from exceeding SAAMI maximum average pressure! I can also hardness test brass and find out where it lies on the scale and this tells me a whole lot about case stretch, extractor marks from gas guns, and ejector marks.

Headspace only tells a little bit of the story. Not only do we have to worry about how long a case is compared to the chamber, but we also have to worry about how fat the case is compared to the chamber. Additionally, how flat is the case compared to the bolt face. If either are concave or convex by just a few thou, you can wind up with problems.

Why is it that we are willing to believe testimonials, but not hard data?

Bohem, I do not know your resume, just like you do not know mine. I read your post and evaluate what is said and test what is presented befoe I make a final determination. Please extend me the same courtesy. If you have all the required gauging and equipment to test this stuff, then please present objective statistical data.


thanks,

Mike
</div></div>

I'm trying to ask you objectively how you can advise that RL22 is safe for any load in the 30-06 with 180-200gr bullets. That is what I find hard to believe from the testing that I did with and without measurement devices. You initially said that max pressure was 48 ksi from a compressed load, now you're saying that you can do 60ksi if you try?

So, as you stated, neither of us have any knowledge of the other's resume, here's what I have done:

I built a wheatstone bridge pressure transducer that sat at the 12 oclock position on the top of the 30-06 test rifle. I then used the same calibration method that Vaughn presents in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts" to calibrate to a 10 ksi load on the brass. The certified hydraulic gauge that was available was a 12ksi gauge and I don't particularly like running gauges to the max, so 10 was a nice round number to work with.

Matlab was the interface used for data management and post processing work. We used a PMD-1208FS for a data card to pull the data @ 50kHz.

The brass used for the testing was Winchester, the brass used in the test was fireformed and neck sized only to an ultra-tight match reamer made by Dave Manson. I do not know the reamer specs as I didn't own the barrel or test rifle, I was just asked to provide a way to recreate the experimentation that was done in Mr. Vaughn's publication that would be capable of logging pressure data without costing a fortune.

The data and fixtures are held by a small company in Maryland that may or may not ever publish anything about it, their experimentation wasn't the resounding success that they hoped for and they were still working at the time. I don't own the data or the system, I simply was asked to build it and was paid for my time and expenses in putting it together.

We didn't have any trouble recording pressures in excess of 70ksi with 200gr Accubond, 210gr SMK, and 208 Amax. The Accubond in particular had an easy time hitting very high pressures for a several reasons. Bearing surface length, bullet jacket hardness, bearing surface diameter all appeared to contribute to higher initial pressures.

I don't mean to offend your pedigree of information if it can be substantiated, I enjoy talking to guys with the "in the trenches" experience in the labs for internal ballistics.

I suppose it sounds like my reference to "overpressure" is when there are danger signs in the brass such as plastic deformation in the extractor groove, primer pocket, and case head as opposed to saying that even though the primer pocket may have loosened up @ 48ksi it is not over pressure.

My feeling is more of a functional limit that is safe to work with as opposed to having a black and white number to work off of.

Can you explain why 48ksi would be the limit you initially spoke of? Is that for uncompressed loads or something in particular?

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Not to get off the topic, but you guys may be interested in the fact that a friend just had 200 208AMAXs ship from Midway yesterday. It looks like they're back in the system...

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim Good</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off the topic, but you guys may be interested in the fact that a friend just had 200 208AMAXs ship from Midway yesterday. It looks like they're back in the system... </div></div>

Good news! Thanks

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Anyone do any accuracy tests comparing their "pet" loads using other powders/primers, etc. to this combination yet? I haven't had time to get to the range in the last couple weeks to shoot. Planning to go Thursday. The accuracy seems to be there in the .308, but my '06 doesn't seem to like the R17 so far vs. the 210 VLDs and h4350.

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's some relative volume's (water to overflow) that I've measured on brass fireformed to my chamber:

milsurp - 68.0 gr
IMI - 69.0 gr
Rem - 70.0 gr
Win - 72.0 gr
Norma - 72.5 gr </div></div>

ANy idea what unfired Win is? I'mt rying to mess with this in quickload but don't have a beaker or anything to measure in ccs with.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I just use the reloading scale.

Weigh the emty case, then fill it up to overflow and weigh the case and water, and subtract the empty case weight.

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just use the reloading scale.

Weigh the emty case, then fill it up to overflow and weigh the case and water, and subtract the empty case weight. </div></div>

Thanks.

Playing with quickload and it looks like N560 might be very worth a try too. Best velocites with lowest pressure (besides Norma MRP), the only problem is running out of case volume before hitting max pressure.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I looked at 3 different powder burn rate charts and two of the three states H4350 is a little quicker burning than the n560. Did you look at those powders that are just a little quicker burning? I was going to try h4831sc, but if you can't get case fill with n560, that 4831 endeavor may be pointless as the n560 is quicker burning. Understanding speed of burn is not everything, how about n550?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

I've never tried VV N560, but it looks to have great potential with heavies in the 30-06.

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never tried VV N560, but it looks to have great potential with heavies in the 30-06.

</div></div>

I just got QL the other day and wish I would have bought it sooner now that I've played with it a bit. I think I'm gonna sell my 20lbs of RL22 and try N560 and MRP, wish I wouldn't have bought the 4831SC and RL22 now. Should have ponied up for the sofware sooner, though I know it is flawed. It is WAY off base in a lot of its calculations for RL17.

For instance with my parameters for my rifle (28" barrel 3.515 COAL in new Win brass)

I set the limit to 62k PSI

RL22 62.4 108% fill ratio 2845fps
MRP 63.2 106% fill ratio 2875fps
N560 62.9 107.7% fill ratio 2867fps

They look very close, and supposedly RL22 is just Nobel's seconds that isn't good enough for Norma to accept as MRP. Still, it looks like it would have the least compression and highest velocity even though we are splitting hairs here.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Good to know. Thanks for the efforts.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

Anyone know how temperature stable that Norma MRP is, or the VV N560?

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just use the reloading scale.

Weigh the emty case, then fill it up to overflow and weigh the case and water, and subtract the empty case weight. </div></div>

Using this method I got 67.8, much less than I expected.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

you might want to check it again after it's fired (before resizing).

My fired Win brass holds around 71.0 gr of water. Never measured a virgin hull.

 

[Falar]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you might want to check it again after it's fired (before resizing).

My fired Win brass holds around 71.0 gr of water. Never measured a virgin hull. </div></div>

I will, I was just suprised at how much the difference was between fired and unfired. I fully expected 70-71gr water in the unfired case. I was WAY off.

 

[SPAK]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

H4831sc is in the que for a serious test plan on my rifle. I'm looking to get some better temp stability than what I've currently gotten out of the RL22. The load in RL22 shoots bugholes, the problem is that the bugholes move up and down the impact burm as the temp changes over the months. </div></div>

Hey bohem, have you or anyone else done any more testing with H4831 or H4831sc with the 208 amaxes??

I'm in the same boat, RL 22 gave me some insane accuracy, but the temp sensitivity is starting to annoy me. I pretty much have two loads now, one for the winter and one for the summer/spring...It's just annoying, doable, but annoying...

I think I'm gonna give a run with H4831sc as well.

 

[Good]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

My rifle doesn't like 55g. I finally got out to shoot some more and have 4" of vertical at 200 meters confirmed by several 4 shot groups. Windage is good at just under moa.

I laddered up to 56.6 but lost a few brass (pmc) to loose primer pockets.

The velocity ranged from 2710 to 2745 from my factory Rem 700 22.5" sporter barrel.

I can't get Norma MRP or N560 within 150 miles of my location so I'm going to try h4831sc next to see if I can get a similar velocity before hitting pressure. And hopefully it will group better also. Real mild loads of h4350 grouped .3 moa with Berger 210s.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

MM,
I'd be interested to see how your loads hold up to the hot summer temperatures.

 

[Weaselthis]

Tag4Me

 

[pyrotechnic]

Did some more load development with H4831sc and the 208gr amax yesterday. I had found a load last summer that shot well at 60.0gr with a CCI BR2 primer and Win. brass. My cheap chrony had clocked it at 2740fps and I went with it as I hate load development. Using my drops it was running closer to 2700fps.

I loaded 60.5 and 61.0gr and shot them yesterday. 61.0 yeilded 2750 vs the 2710 that my chrony was registering for 60.0gr.
ES of 10 for 5 shots with 61.0gr

5 shots 61.0gr H4831sc @ 200yds
Dont ask me to do it again.

Rifle is GAP built with a 26" bartlien

 

[White Mamba]

My numbers are the same as pyrotechnics, 60 gr 4831sc with the 208 amax and lapua brass is at 2740 through at 26" tube.