.30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

J

jps2

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Jun 7, 2008
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France/Europe
#1
Hello guys,

I had a HS Precision HTR in 7-08 : works great.
I have a 6.5x47Lapua : a delight.
My inputs :
I want a new custom in .30 <ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Can't be a 308 because of French rules ("war" calibers [.308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 7.5x54, 223, ...] are restricted (can be requisitioned/confiscated) & forbidden for hunting).[*]30 cal is a minimum for some big game as elk and wild boars.[*]Plenty of hunting and paper punching bullets in .30[*]Barrel life is an issue : 1000$ for a new one, wants minimum 4k rounds.[*]Accuracy : at least 1/2 Moa @600m[/list]So what's your cartridge recommendations ?

I already have some ideas, but i do not want to influence your replies.
 
#2
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

For short range work and fun stuff,

30 Br would do the trick, a 180 grain bullet suppressed would do the work for most boar,

with 125 grain bullets they are a blast and wil work at ranges to

a 30x47 Lapua, as above


any larger cals and one will not reach the 4 k round mark,

a 30-06 ought to be dissalowed by the same rules, yes?

If one goes with the magnums the 308 Norma mag is great round and might get you to about 2,500-3000 rounds before the barrel is toast, good brass is awailable to.

Best regards Chris
 
#4
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

How about a .308 short or a .30-06 short. Or an Ackley chamber version of either parent cartridge.

Not sure if you could do the ackley cartridge and still be able to buy the ammo. Besides it might be a hassle with the law and semantics.
 
#5
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remington R-15, chambered in the new .30 Remington AR cartridge. </div></div>

I'm sure both the rifle and ammo is widely available in <span style="color: #FF0000">FRANCE</span>.

I would not look at a 30BR. It does not have the case capacity for the bore diameter and big game hunting weight bullets to generate the velocity (therefore energy) needed for big game.

Assuming that because the chamberings for both 308 and 30-06 are prohibited, I would assume that the brass is prohibited as well. That leads us to the question of what BRASS IS available. From what I have heard, 270 is a common work-around for the 30-06 type rifles like M1s. You already have a 7-08, a nice workaround for the 308.

How about this - take 708 or 270 brass, neck it up to 30 cal, and blow it out into a 30 degree Ackley configuration. You already have the 7-08 brass and only have to neck it up from .284" to 3080". The 270 brass has to go from .277" to .3080", a bit more of a stretch.

In either case though, I'd go with a 30 degree AI improvement and neck up to 30 cal using whatever brass you have commonly available to you.

One other question please - when California passed its 50 cal ban, the requirement was that the rifle could not chamber the 50 BMG case. How does your law read regarding the military chamberings? Because, if you make a 30 degree AI as I described above, it will chamber both the 308 and 30-06 parent rounds respectively for the 7-08 and 270 brass-based 30 degree AIs.

 
#6
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

To ShortRound :
I'am looking for a solid .30 and .308 performance is the base line : if i reduce the case capacity, the bullet will be slow down.

To Greg : Hi Greg, I didn't notice that new (almost) caliber but 2200 ftps means 670m/s, it will not get my accuracy requirement. Regards.

To NineHotel : Yes 7-08 is a good round but many hunters have lost there game with that round and bullet choice is an issue : i'am a fan of scenar : 6.5 or .30
I will check but i remember the rules are : if you can fire a .308 round in your weapon : it's a .308. If you can fire your round in a .308 weapon : it is a .308 ; Both rounds and weapons are restricted.
If you neck down a .308 to 284 : it is a 7-08, but the round is still engraved as 308 : explain it to a cop ? good luke !
 
#8
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I saw your reply about barrel life in a 300 WSM but that would be my hands down number one choice for this application. You can run heavier bullets, and not as hot loads and your barrel life should be fairly decent. The 300 WSM is also developing a reputation for having great accuracy potential. I can vouch for both the ability of this round to shoot accurately and put down big game animals with authority.
 
#9
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

What about a 30-06 AI? Does that count as a wildcat or a military caliber?

Another way you could do it would be to build a 30-284. It's essentially a 7.5x55 Swiss, but with the rebated rim you couldn't put 7.5 Swiss ammo in it without feeding issues. It also won't close the bolt for 7.5 Swiss ammo because the case head size doesn't fit in the bolt face so you'll have a headspace issue and never get the bolt locked up.

It might be an issue though if you try to put 284 brass into a Swiss rifle (like a K-31) because those will function fine. I have successfully used 284 necked up to 30 caliber and fed it through my Swiss K31. It still might not work though because the K31's are cut with an almost no-throat chamber to feed a bore rider, dual diameter bullet that needs a 0 throat chamber. If you seat standard bullets you'll get stuck trying to get the 30-284's into the chamber.

My suggestion on that route would be that you have something clearly labled 284 or 6.5-284, neither of which are military calibers. Don't say anything to the cops about the 7.5 Swiss connection if they want to try putting your ammo in one of those rifles. It's not a very common thing to know unless you happen to own a K31 and needed to feed it in the US before the ammo and components started flowing in about 8 years ago.

You get about 80% of the difference between a 308 and a 30-06 with the availability of extremely good 6.5-284 brass from Lapua to neck up to 30 caliber.

Barrel life will be well in excess of 4k rounds if you're not shooting blistering loads with light bullets.
 
#10
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WunderDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw your reply about barrel life in a 300 WSM but that would be my hands down number one choice for this application. You can run heavier bullets, and not as hot loads and your barrel life should be fairly decent. The 300 WSM is also developing a reputation for having great accuracy potential. I can vouch for both the ability of this round to shoot accurately and put down big game animals with authority. </div></div>
Hi, what's your round count before barrel burn ?
I was thinking about 300WSM with some "soft" target load : 155scenar@2800ftps (VV N140) and some hunt load Accubond 200gr@2700ftps (VV N160).

What barrel life can i expect ? (with 90% of soft/target load)
 
#11
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Hi Bohem,

30-284 seems to be a little slow for what i wants : what are your velocities and whats your barrel life ?

30-284 is also a bit long for short actions and a bit short for longs : feeding is not smooth.

Cartridge selection is every time a compromise between performance/price, pressure/speed, etc
That time, i want to do the process in the right order :
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]choice of cartridge for my requirements[*]choice of the action[*]choice of the barrel manufacturer and twist regarding to bullet weight[*]choice of the stock (McM HTG or A1-3)[*]choice of scope (S&B 4-16x42 PMII perhaps with P4L)[/list]
 
#13
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 178 Amax out of any 30 cal will flat kill and is a good target pill. </div></div>
Just for joke : Do you know the retail price of a box of 168AMAX in .284, here in France ? 40€, almost 60$ !
I can have almost 2 box of scenar for 1 box of Amax.

Shooting is a micro market here : 63 Million people in France ; 150,000 shooters, 1,800,000 hunters (mostly shotgun hunters).
 
#14
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JpS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Bohem,

30-284 seems to be a little slow for what i wants : what are your velocities and whats your barrel life ?

30-284 is also a bit long for short actions and a bit short for longs : feeding is not smooth.

Cartridge selection is every time a compromise between performance/price, pressure/speed, etc
That time, i want to do the process in the right order :
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]choice of cartridge for my requirements[*]choice of the action[*]choice of the barrel manufacturer and twist regarding to bullet weight[*]choice of the stock (McM HTG or A1-3)[*]choice of scope (S&B 4-16x42 PMII perhaps with P4L)[/list]
</div></div>


JpS I can't speak to the exact wildcat with your powders available, but I loaded my 7.5x55 Swiss to the Hodgdon max loads and still had room to move. I started loading 308 loads into it without issue.

I shoot 178's Amax's at 2750 fps from my K31. I believe it's a 24" barreled rifle. The loads shown on Hodgdon's website are safe to shoot in the turn of the century swiss rifles from about 1890 and later, which are significantly less strong than the latest K31's that were built. I switched to shooting 308 charges as I saw no pressure signs from the Hodgdon data. These are a little light, I could go hotter I think, but this rifle is just a plinking toy for me and I don't feel the need to whoop on it. The full bore military GP11 ammo shoots incredibly well and runs more felt recoil than my 178 reloads. I've never chrono'd it though.

The 284 is designed to be a SA round loaded at mag length, you can successfully run it in long actions, especially when you load them long, you still get to feed from the magazine. I've seen 284's run without any feeding issues from a long action rifle with the bullets loaded long.

The round is longer than a 308 is, and my dad's 308 feeds without any issue from a k98 action. The only issue with the 284 is the fatter case body, which requires the rails to be opened up for proper feeding.


With a modern strong actioned bolt gun you can easily get 308 or hotter performance from it, which makes perfect sense no? It has more case volume than the 308, why can't you go faster then?

Just think about how hard you can throw 7mm bullets from the true 284 Win case. With RL-17 people are getting 2950 fps from 28" barrels. With a 30 caliber bullet and a 26" barrel you should have absolutely no issue doing the same. I don't know if you can get RL17 in France, but there's lots of powder that will work in this case.


If you shoot 300 WSM's with a lighter loaded round you can get lots of barrel life over the regular full house loads. For a hunting round you can get 200-210gr class bullets north of 2700 fps. With the 150's you can make reduced recoil loads that will run 2800 fps and get 308 level barrel life. Keep in mind though, that as you reduce the volume of powder in a case, the velocity spreads increase because of the unfilled case volume.

I don't own a 300 WSM, but I routinely load light loads in my 30-06 for easy plinking, especially when my girlfriend comes to the range as recoil is a sure-fire way to stop her from shooting.


EDIT: One more thing. I've fired about 3200 rounds from my K31 in a mix of military full bore ammo (which is hotter than I load) and it has countless hundreds or thousands of rounds from Swiss riflemen. I'd easily say that it has 4500 rounds on the barrel without feeling like I was lying to you.
 
#15
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Thanks for those inputs, Bohem.

Wait for inputs from 30-284 & 300WSM users about velocities and barrel life.

I do agree that mild load extends barrel life, but how much?

I also knows that cases have to be almost full of powder to have reliable accuracy, so reducing load have to be done by using a more speedy/burn rate powder.
 
#16
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I would probably just get a .300 win mag for your use, but if you don't mind spending the $$$, 300 WSM will probably offer you 30-06 performance on the bottom end and .300 Win Mag performance on the top end in a short action to boot.
 
#17
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would probably just get a .300 win mag for your use, but if you don't mind spending the $$$, 300 WSM will probably offer you 30-06 performance on the bottom end and .300 Win Mag performance on the top end in a short action to boot. </div></div>

300 WM is a military caliber in the US so that might stop him from being allowed to use it. Barrel life is also a concern though and the 300 Winny isn't too nice to them compared to the smaller 30's.
 
#18
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

What about .300 Savage. Nearly the same case capacity as .308 and same bullets. Given the more modern powders available today, over the original chamberings in the early 20th century, and are right up in the same territory, though not quite, with the .308 Winchester.

It was never a military caliber either.

In the July issue of Rifle magazine, a good head to head comparison was written about the .300 Savage and .308 Win. The article, Classic Cartridges, by John Haviland shows the old Savage cartridge doesn't give up much to the other case with handloads pushing;

165 grain Hornady interlock spbt bullets at 2580 fps (39 gr IMR-3031)
180 grain Sierra Spitzer at 2562 (42gr RL-15)

This article dealt with the older Savage rifles with a pressure threshold of 47,000 PSI. Chambering a new rifle for this cartridge would enable considerable latitude in raising the pressure of your loads to compare more readily with the .308.

Just a suggestion.

Good luck.
 
#19
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

In your neck of the woods I would go with a 308 norma mag. You can buy the cases
or neck up a 7m mag. They can also be made from a 338 or 300 mag. Has the Euro
pedigree to keep the guberment happy.

seems from reading the cheapest and easiest way is to size a 300 win mag case and trim.
 
#20
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Because of the accuracy desires, I would recommend, as stated by JpS himself, a short .30 magnum light loaded.

His later post on both military rifles and ammo being Verboten rules out any Ackley Improved numbers based on military cases, as you can fire the evilwickedmeanandnasty military ammo in them. That's how I was able to shoot 10 rounds out of a .30-06 AI back when I was 11--the owner was fire-forming his brass from factory .30-06.

.30 Savage *could* work, by why limit yourself? I'd rather have unused excess capacity, than something that has to be pushed to the ragged edge.

Plus, the short-fat cases are easier to load to high accuracy standards.
 
#21
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Back in the early twentieth century, the .300 Savage was considered an efficient case that would do nearly everything the .30-06 could do! Probably roaring twenties bullshit!

I agree though that there is much that can be done with a .300 WSM, or other short fat case, to prolong barrel life and load it down to 30-30 velocities all the way up to what it was designed for.

Damn shame to have to jump through all those cynically designed hoops.
 
#22
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

How about starting with the 7,92X57mm Mauser? You could easily neck the case down to .30, and it should produce velocities slightly higher than the .308. Or how about taking 7X64 RWS or .280 Remington and expanding it to .308? The problem with any of these would be the cost of the dies and chamber reamer, with the dies probably costing <span style="font-style: italic">more</span> than the chamber reamer!

A couple of other possibilities are the .30-284 or even the .300 Savage. I'm not sure if .300 Savage brass is readily available, even in the U.S. any more.
 
#23
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nicholst55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about starting with the 7,92X57mm Mauser? You could easily neck the case down to .30, and it should produce velocities slightly higher than the .308. Or how about taking 7X64 RWS or .280 Remington and expanding it to .308? The problem with any of these would be the cost of the dies and chamber reamer, with the dies probably costing <span style="font-style: italic">more</span> than the chamber reamer!

A couple of other possibilities are the .30-284 or even the .300 Savage. I'm not sure if .300 Savage brass is readily available, even in the U.S. any more. </div></div>

The 30-8mm Mauser would be interesting to try, however, I'd be surprised if he could find brass that was properly headstamped. He mentioned some issues with the 5-0 getting bent over necking 308 down to 7mm if the brass still said 308 on it.
 
#24
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Regards right back atcha.

All the comments make sense. I think I can see your dilemma.

Maybe the 'best .30' isn't a .30, not quite.

I just inherited a pair of Ruger 77's chambered in .280 Remington (7mm Remington Express), and I gotta say, it's an eye opener. One is a 22" sporter, and the other is a relatively rare varmint barreled version of somewhat greater length. In essence, it's a 7mm-'06. While I've tended to cringe at the thought of the throat life associated with the 6.5-'06; the 7mm-'06 begins, at least, to 'inhabit the realm of the possible', especially since it's a long-established commercial chambering.

Very impressive, on paper, on the target, and both rifles really seem to like Hornady Custom 139gr SST factory loads. While I have yet to smite game with either, the accuracy and the bullet's performance reputation both incline to make me fairly confident about the rifle and ammo combination.

Charting the load using the published 3000fps MV, 1Kyd velocity works out to roughly 1280fps, and still in excess of 1100fps at 1Km, which ain't too shabby. Combining the '06 capacity with one of the newer 175gr 7mm Cruise Missiles; I've just gotta believe there are new vistas just waiting to be conquered.

Reviewing several manufacturers' load data sites, I see that velocities like the Hornady load's are kinda optimistic, and that (except for the Barnes solids), load pressures seem to be restrained to below 50,000CUP (except for pressures staying below 60,000CUP for the Barnes bullets), so I have some figments about whether venturing into the 50,000's might be feasible, and what might result regarding velocities. I did some limited load development before I found the Hornady load, and it seems I recall pressure signs as being rather conspicuously absent.

I've also a hunch the chambering and ammo should be relatively available and compatible with non-military chambering regs. Brass headstamps, likewise.

At any rate, I though it worthy of mention...

Greg
 
#25
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I would love to be able to give you some idea of you might expect for barrel life in a 300 WSM based on those loadings but I haven't shot a barrel out yet so I have no personal experience to base it on. I am sure someone here has some experience with a barrel being shot out on one but even that is only a reference. I just find it hand to imagine that you are going to beat a common, experience proven factory round that falls squarely within your requirements by going with a wildcat. The only reason for going in that direction is if you want to do something different - and I do understand if that is part of the equation.
 
#26
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Thanks all for your inputs.

Greg, i'm very happy with my 6.5x47Lapua (with 3 different loads based on 123 & 139 scenar), just to tell you that I went from 7-08 to a "good" 6.5mm.

I just want a caliber more "consistent" than 7-08 (I've got a Steyr Scout for fun and hunt [will sell it after the hunt season, in march-2010]) : i just want to use my new rifle for hunt (0-300m) and sport (paper) between 300 and 1000m.

The .270-.284 range calibers are too light for hunting (Elks are between 100 and 200kg, Boars up to 120kg, both can be shoot moving) and I want both Scenar and good hunting bullets.
 
#27
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I don't have one personally. But I would vote for the 300 WSM. The 2 that I have shot are VERY accurate. I was shooting out to 300 yards.
 
#28
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I'd just go with 308 Win. but use 7-08 brass and dies that have been modified. If that doesn't fly, just cut the chamber a little short so that 308 Win. rounds won't chamber. You can either hold the reamer short, or trim an existing 308 barrel at the chamber end and re-mark it. It will give virtually the same performance and is pretty easy to do.
 
#29
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

The 30-.284 is listed in Hodgdon's Reloading manual as being ballistically identical to a 30-06. They don't give data, they say to use 30-06 load data. They list velocity with a 150gr bullet at 3043f/s. Also, the 30-284 should feed from a short action and not have too much trouble as the .308 bullets are shorter than the .284 bullets of the same weight.
 
#30
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't be a 308 because of French rules ("war" calibers [.308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 7.5x54, 223, ...] are restricted (can be requisitioned/confiscated) & forbidden for hunting).</div></div>

And I thought we had all the idiot politicians in Washington.
 
#32
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

How about going to something larger than .30, like 9,3X62 or .35 Whelen? They have more than enough power for the large animals you're hunting. Neither one is a long-range cartridge, but one must make compromises sometimes.

I honestly think that the .30-284 is going to be one of your best bets for a dual use cartridge.
 
#33
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the flip side; they can buy suppressors as if they were candy... </div></div>
I agree.
 
#36
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

I hear more and more good things about the 6.5x47, and cannot fault your choice in any way. I went with the .260 remington when it was new, and have been completely happy with its performance. Best fortune in your ventures.

Greg
 
#37
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Hi, what do you think about a that barrel for bullets between 155gr (scenar) and 185gr (scenar) or 200gr (SMK)

profile......:14
Name.........: M24/M40 Rem. Tactical
Diam chamber.: 1.200
Diam crown...: .900
Length.......: 26"
Weight.......: 6.20 (fluted : 5.6)
Twist........: 1/11 in 5R

Wait for inputs about the twist rate regarding bullet weight AND the length.

As I quite certainly goes to 300WSM, with light bullets regarding the cartridge potential, I will choose fast rate burn powders, certainly between N140 and N150 (VihtaVuori, easy to find in Europe).
I've also tried N5xx series, but they are really to "heaty" for target shooters : They will be a very good choice for hunters wanting more velocity in same pressure level.

 
#38
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

Another vote for .300 Savage as queequeg recommended earlier. Components are available, plenty of barrel life, will kill a deer or hog, slightly smaller case capacity then .308 Win.

Magnums do not normally give you 4000 rounds accurate barrel life, if you shoot them often.

Good luck

Jerry
 
#39
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 178 Amax out of any 30 cal will flat kill and is a good target pill. </div></div>

OHHHHH YA a big +1 on that
 
#40
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JpS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi, what do you think about a that barrel for bullets between 155gr (scenar) and 185gr (scenar) or 200gr (SMK)

profile......:14
Name.........: M24/M40 Rem. Tactical
Diam chamber.: 1.200
Diam crown...: .900
Length.......: 26"
Weight.......: 6.20 (fluted : 5.6)
Twist........: 1/11 in 5R

Wait for inputs about the twist rate regarding bullet weight AND the length.

As I quite certainly goes to 300WSM, with light bullets regarding the cartridge potential, I will choose fast rate burn powders, certainly between N140 and N150 (VihtaVuori, easy to find in Europe).
I've also tried N5xx series, but they are really to "heaty" for target shooters : They will be a very good choice for hunters wanting more velocity in same pressure level.

</div></div>


A 1/11t barrel might be marginally slow for 200gr pills, especially in cold temps. If you can get a 1:10 I'd run that but the 1:11t will stabilize you to 185gr easily, I'm just not 100% certain that the 1:11 will be marginal stability.

Am I reading it right that you're going to stick with 300 WSM then?
 
#41
Re: .30 dual use target/hunting and NOT .308

The 30/284 has velocities close to the straight 284 when using 168 (3,100) and 180 (2,950) bullets. The common weight I saw on the line was the Sierra 190s going north of 2,700 for it’s BC before the 7’s came out in heavier weights. It has the same bolt face as the 7/08 at .473 and is a decent short version of the 30-06 but it is a wild cat and you would need to do prep work on the brass.

With the 30 cal min requirement, and as other have stated a 30 short mag would be a good option but for your location France I would look into the 30 RSAUM it is more efficient then the 30WSM and between the 30-06 and 300 win mag in performance. The up side for you is that Norma makes factory brass for the 300 RSAUM and if I recall correctly Norma is much easier for you to get then us.

You should research more the benefits and pit falls of the WSM vs. RSAUM as most folks here have tried the WSM no so with the RSAUM

I can’t find the link but 6mmbr had a 30 cal round up of both the WSM and RSAUM you might want to check out.

As an aside I have head some pretty positive things said about the 325 WSM
 
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