300 PRC update

[nick338]

Guess I should have mentioned that the only cans I can legally own in NY are not designed for shooting.

 

[high right]

Back from two weeks of cool mountain air. Heat index today is 97 at home. Damn I like frosty mountain mornings, grizzlys walking by camp and elk bugling.
Myself and the Hornady crowd have been shooting this in 1K BR comps for a decade now. I've shot 5" ten shot 1K groups with the round with the then new 225 ELD-M. No problem with accuracy. Case design has little influence on accuracy with all things being equal. A good action, mated with a good barrel and chamber are the basic foundation for any accurate rifle. Then it's about bullets and tuning. In regards to case capacity you reach a point of diminishing returns and then it becomes more problematic to tune the large capacity cases.

Thanks for the response.

 

[wildcats]

Don't let the belt intimidate you. It's been around a long time. The basic gripe is if you reload the case enough times there is an area in front of the belt that the sizing die doesn't touch. In time that can cause extraction issues. True but usually primer pockets go away before there's extraction issues.

I totally agree,been shooting 300 win for over 20 years and haven't had an issue with the belt yet.i use RWS brass.
Still one the most accurate magnums to date.

 

[high right]

A buddy of mine has the same setup as you, the factory 1500 300 win mag. He handloads for it and consistently shoots 3/4 moa groups. He shoots the 208's and 225's at what I think is a pretty fast clip. His loads are pretty warm. This summer, he was able to go 3 or 4 out of 10 on the charity shoot at 1900 yards at the Q creek ELR match. It was a unicorn about a mil wide and several mils tall at sort of a diagonal/up on its hind legs. I think that is pretty good for a factory rig. If you stayed WM i think you probably have a very capable rifle still. He seems to be fine reloading WM as though it was a non belted cartridge.

Any pics of the shots on that unicorn this year? I couldn't find any on line. I heard someone hit it 6 times out of 10 with a 7 saum.
I'll be up in a week for the Fall shoot if you can find em.

 

[Tactical Taz]

Any pics of the shots on that unicorn this year? I couldn't find any on line. I heard someone hit it 6 times out of 10 with a 7 saum.
I'll be up in a week for the Fall shoot if you can find em.

I do have some pictures from the event and some of the unicorn. Nothing great of showing where it was hit as I didn't have a lot of time on the borrowed spotters. I will be at Q Creek for the Fall Fiasco also and show you what we got! And if I remember right, the guy who went 6/10 was using a stock savage action, something pretty cool along those lines. He is also signed up for the match next week and could tell you more about it.

 

[Cave Man]

Here you go

Hey Dave, I have a copy of the spec.

 

[Dirty D]

I was talking to Pete Gould today and brought up the 300PRC and Pete had not heard of it, Pete was interested so I emailed him this link.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/08/its-official-saami-approves-hornady-6-5-prc-and-300-prc/

 

[verdugo60]

I wish Hornady would release it already, I need some brass!

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I wish Hornady would release it already, I need some brass!

Yea I could use some also. I'll see where they stand on shipping. May take a few days to get to the right person.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I don't know the rest of the distribution story but Hornady has stuff in inventory. You might contact your favorite component supplier and ask. They are working on 2019 orders and a few requests might get things moving faster. Well maybe

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

I’m very interested in this case once supplies start dribbling out.

 

[gregsjt]

Any updates?

 

[Bandit31]

https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/10/16/range-test-hornady-300-prc-cartridge/

Looks like it's on the way.

 

[DIBBS]

That PR clip was... unfortunately (as far as I'm concerned) worthless. Would have liked to see some groups, info on trajectory etc. But the 300 PRCshould be hitting the streets soon based ... maybe

 

[Ledzep]

It hammers, DIBBS. I shot 5 rounds, another shooter shot 5 rounds out of the same rifle, same target at 100yd and our combined 10-shot group was in the .75" range. One big hole. A couple guys I know that have been shooting it have several 1000+ first round hits (20" plate at a mile, for example). One guy has a proof barreled hunting rifle that put 3 rounds in a tiny oblong knothole group checking zero before going hunting. It was designed as a LR/precision cartridge and the throat/lead are sized/shaped appropriately. Meant to feed VLD/ELD style bullets from magazine-length and be an accurate, efficient performer with existing powders.

The day I shot we were getting 2940fps with a 225gr ELD-M avg (labradar) from what I believe was a 26" barrel. G1 bc .755, G7 .380 @ 2940fps. Plug it into JBM with your local conditions for trajectory.

 

[HillBilly n TX]

https://gununiversity.com/300-prc-ballistics-and-comparisons/

A little more info. Excited about this round.

 

[HillBilly n TX]

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-prc-212-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Plan on 2900+ FPS with a 225 EDL-M in a 26" barrel. That speed with an appropriate powder will work in any rifle. As far as accuracy that's dependent on many other things with case design being way down the list. Quality action, quality barrel, quality bullets, quality assembly . Then the experience to make all work.

 

[.30kal]

https://gununiversity.com/300-prc-ballistics-and-comparisons/

A little more info. Excited about this round.

The author claims "Just as I warned earlier about adopting the latest fad, the 300 Norma has ALREADY been passed up by a Tier 1 special operations group. That’s right, they just selected the 300 PRC for their new rifles in lieu of the 300 Norma."

Seems a little overstated as this article claims still under evaluation: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/10/17/field-review-hornady-300-prc/

 

[42N8 1]

Can someone post a visual side by side line up of the various cartridges compared to the 300 PRC and include a comparison of the ballistics. I am interested in the differences of the 300 PRC cartridge compared to others specifically the 300 WM. I was going to have a rifle made for the 300 WM but I am now reconsidering going with the 300 PRC.

 

[wildcats]

The author claims "Just as I warned earlier about adopting the latest fad, the 300 Norma has ALREADY been passed up by a Tier 1 special operations group. That’s right, they just selected the 300 PRC for their new rifles in lieu of the 300 Norma."

Seems a little overstated as this article claims still under evaluation: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/10/17/field-review-hornady-300-prc/

Word is the cartridge was created with input from and is being evaluated by the U.S. Navy to supersede the .300 Norma Magnum, which was selected as the Advanced Sniper Rifle Cartridge for SOCOM. But the head diameter of the .300 Norma is .588 inch, same as the big .338 Lapua Magnum, which was based on the 107-year-old .416 Rigby Magnum (.589 head diameter). That’s too big to fit within conventional centerfire-rifle magnum bolt faces. The .300 PRC, however, features a head diameter of .532 inch (same as the .300 Winchester Magnum) to fit within a standard magnum bolt face.

They forgot to mention that it would a more cost effective move.

 

[Dirty D]

…They forgot to mention that it would a more cost effective move.

IIRC the Army's M-24 were built on long actions and the Army and Navy now have plenty of 300 WinMags in inventory so all the WinMags need is a new barrel and the M-24s need a magnum bolt and barrel and they are off and running with a 300PRC.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Word is the cartridge was created with input from and is being evaluated by the U.S. Navy to supersede the .300 Norma Magnum, which was selected as the Advanced Sniper Rifle Cartridge for SOCOM. But the head diameter of the .300 Norma is .588 inch, same as the big .338 Lapua Magnum, which was based on the 107-year-old .416 Rigby Magnum (.589 head diameter). That’s too big to fit within conventional centerfire-rifle magnum bolt faces. The .300 PRC, however, features a head diameter of .532 inch (same as the .300 Winchester Magnum) to fit within a standard magnum bolt face.

They forgot to mention that it would a more cost effective move.

This goes back a ways. I've got reamers and gages dated 2007. Believe me no one in the military wanted anything to do with it for a long time. For PSR1 the military was looking for alternative cartridges. Myself and the Hornady guys had been shooting this cartridge for several years in 1K BR matches. My relationship with Hornady and AI lead to AI submitting it in 30 and 338 as a cost effective alternative to the WM and Lapua combo. PSRI never moved forward but a few people became familiar with the round. It was used in the Int. Comp at Fort Benning one year. I remember the first day on the range with those guys and they kept overestimating their wind calls. Requirements changed for PSRII . That eventually died in a pile also. In military circles it lay dormant for a number of years. We, being AI, myself and Hornady were still enthusiastic about the round and showed to it anyone that would stand still. I don't know which came first ,the chicken or the egg, the interest by a SOCOM group or Hornady's decision to bring the round to the commercial market. But here we are.
There's nothing wrong with the Norma Mag. I was and I am an advocate for it also. For certain people that is. I have one. I also have several 300 PRC's.

In the hands of the masses more isn't always better. Just saying.

 

[schmi015]

IIRC the Army's M-24 were built on long actions and the Army and Navy now have plenty of 300 WinMags in inventory so all the WinMags need is a new barrel and the M-24s need a magnum bolt and barrel and they are off and running with a 300PRC.

This kind of already happened with the adoption of the XM2010, Army turned in M-24's, remington sold some, gave Army a discount them turned around and game them rebarreled m-24's in a chassis in .300wm with a magnum bolt and thats how you got xm2010.

 

[gregsjt]

That's awesome, is it too early to ask when they will come out with a 338 version?

 

[wildcats]

IIRC the Army's M-24 were built on long actions and the Army and Navy now have plenty of 300 WinMags in inventory so all the WinMags need is a new barrel and the M-24s need a magnum bolt and barrel and they are off and running with a 300PRC.

Exactly my point and a very good move in their part.

 

[bjay]

Id like to see photo

Exactly my point and a very good move in their part.

Are you making one of this? Any Gunsmith up oahu you can trust?

 

[wildcats]

Id like to see photo

Are you making one of this? Any Gunsmith up oahu you can trust?

Nope,Bjay...going to stick with the 300NM providing that Lapua goes forward with the brass.

 

[Deewarr1717]

Does anyone know the barrel Life on the 300 prc and how it’s barrel Length would hold up to the 300 wm

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

That's awesome, is it too early to ask when they will come out with a 338 version?

I've got reamers and dies.
Performance; 80% of a Lapua at 60% of the cost.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Does anyone know the barrel Life on the 300 prc and how it’s barrel Length would hold up to the 300 wm

It would be on par with a WM. 1200-1500 rounds Maybe slightly more if you manage heat checking.

 

[Ledzep]

I've got reamers and dies.
Performance; 80% of a Lapua at 60% of the cost.

I'm guessing 2700-2750 with a 250? Might bog down a little with a 300.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I'm guessing 2700-2750 with a 250? Might bog down a little with a 300.

I'm looking at a box of ammo loaded for PSRI.
2655 FPS with a 285's Almost exactly 200 FPS less than what Hornady loaded for the Lapua that time. Both met the temp/pressure spec. so I would think another 50 FPS could be squeezed out of it.

 

[Dirty D]

...Performance; 80% of a Lapua at 60% of the cost.

Not even considering the inherent accuracy of a shorter and fatter powder column in a beltless case the performance vs cost is a huge factor. I haven’t found BLM land near me where I can shoot to a mile+ so a Lapua or 300 Norma (and a new action to shoot them) are a waste, I am a barrel swap away from a PRC with my long action Rem 700.

 

[Deewarr1717]

I really want some sort of 30 cal magnum for a let’s say a 2000 yard gun. Between the 4 big hitters the 300 rum the 300 Norma the 300 prc and the good old 300 win mag witch should I go with

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

That's like asking your friend to pick a girlfriend for you.
If money is not an issue then pick a bullet, decide how fast you want to push it, pick one or two cartridges that achieve that. velocity. Then look at how they function in a rifle.
That will get you close.

 

[Dirty D]

I really want some sort of 30 cal magnum for a let’s say a 2000 yard gun. Between the 4 big hitters the 300 rum the 300 Norma the 300 prc and the good old 300 win mag witch should I go with

Some thoughts off the top of my head

300 RUM:
Rebated rim case so magazine feeding may be an issue.
Case length is 2.85" so seating the 225 ELD-M or the 230 Berger out far enough is an issue unless you single feed.

300 Norma:
Kick ass flat shooting round with the right barrel and bullet (230 Berger) but you have to step up in cost to a Lapua sized action (.585" bolt face), this may or may not be an issue for you.

300 PRC:
If you have a long action with a magnum (.532" bolt face) bolt then all you need is a new barrel.
300 PRC brass hasn't really hit the streets yet, @steve123 has been necking down the 375 Ruger for years with excellent case life and winning matches with it (as have others), Steve shared the process with me pre dark ages (the Scout years) and it's fairly simple.
Dave Tooley can and does build whatever he wants and has more time on big magnums than most shooters on this site combined (counting me) and is excited about the round, AI jumped on this particular bandwagon after seeing the results too.

300 Win Mag:
That shit is everywhere, components and loaded rounds.
The belt, the fucking belt.
A Win Mag case is 2.62" long compared to 2.580" for the PRC and many shooters have run out of magazine length when chasing the lands in an ever wearing throat and had to single load or get a new barrel.

This is by no stretch of the imagination a comprehensive list, just a few thoughts from some random schmuck on a interwebz forum, it's worth every penny that you didn't pay for it.

Good luck and good shooting.

 

[wildcats]

I have a custom built M70 CRF 300 rum that's been sitting in the safe for a number of years with only 50rnds through it,may just have the barrel set back and try this cartridge out. wondering if MR. Tooley works with M70 receivers.

 

[_Windrider_]

Just found this. Haven’t watched so I have no clue what it says, just thought I’d share it.

 

[jamesZ71]

Tag

 

[surgeon260]

Just found this. Haven’t watched so I have no clue what it says, just thought I’d share it.

This strikes me as a lot of marketing BS. So 300 Norma sucks because of case fill issues that cause extreme spreads of 80 fps? Sorry, that's just straight BS. I'm consistently below ES of 20 with RL33 and N570.

And all of that nonsense about superior chamber geometry? Come on. There is nothing inherently superior about the cartridge. It has some cool features no doubt (no belt, factory ammo, optimized throat dimensions, etc.), but it makes design compromises just like every other cartridge. They argue it's superior because it burns less powder than a Norma or RUM? Well, that also means it is slower. Lowlight is keen to remind that hit probability at ELR is directly correlated to velocity, so you are trading barrel life for hit probability. Try making this argument to the Cheytac, Barrett, Lethal, and XC shooters of the world that dominate ELR competition. It's a tradeoff, not an objective advantage.

300 PRC seems like a 30 cal magnum for dummies, and I mean that in the best way possible. It brings a chamber design typically reserved for custom rifles to the masses. But for the competent handloader using custom barrels chambered with custom reamers (the majority of people here I suspect), it isn't breaking any new ground. It does a bunch of things right, but nothing that you can't do with a Norma, Nosler, or Win Mag. Hornady should be applauded for bringing such a modern chamber design to the masses, but let's not get carried away with hyperbole. And don't forget, Hornady brass sucks donkey balls.

 

[_Windrider_]

This strikes me as a lot of marketing BS. So 300 Norma sucks because of case fill issues that cause extreme spreads of 80 fps? Sorry, that's just straight BS. I'm consistently below ES of 20 with RL33 and N570.

And all of that nonsense about superior chamber geometry? Come on. There is nothing inherently superior about the cartridge. It has some cool features no doubt (no belt, factory ammo, optimized throat dimensions, etc.), but it makes design compromises just like every other cartridge. They argue it's superior because it burns less powder than a Norma or RUM? Well, that also means it is slower. Lowlight is keen to remind that hit probability at ELR is directly correlated to velocity, so you are trading barrel life for hit probability. Try making this argument to the Cheytac, Barrett, Lethal, and XC shooters of the world that dominate ELR competition. It's a tradeoff, not an objective advantage.

300 PRC seems like a 30 cal magnum for dummies, and I mean that in the best way possible. It brings a chamber design typically reserved for custom rifles to the masses. But for the competent handloader using custom barrels chambered with custom reamers (the majority of people here I suspect), it isn't breaking any new ground. It does a bunch of things right, but nothing that you can't do with a Norma, Nosler, or Win Mag. Hornady should be applauded for bringing such a modern chamber design to the masses, but let's not get carried away with hyperbole. And don't forget, Hornady brass sucks donkey balls.

Their brass does suck. No doubt. I have no skin in this and anytime a manufacturer makes a product video of their product, it’s always superior.

 

[Ledzep]

I think what they're talking about with geometry being good is that the SAAMI spec chamber and ammunition are basically what would be considered "match" spec. It's all set up to run heavy VLD/ELD bullets specifically for precision.

If you look at the SAAMI 30 Nosler spec sheet it's obviously meant for the typical 150-180gr hunting bullets. To us, it's a no brainer that you would get a custom reamer made with neck, throat, etc.. geometry that makes sense for precision/LR shooting. To many other people, that's not so obvious. I know many a shooter that have bought factory .300wm rifles expecting to shoot 800+ because the cartridge (with the right chamber) is capable of it, but being unable to because accuracy suffered so bad. Having a SAAMI 300wm chamber didn't help them. It pertains to the guy that's buying an off-the-shelf rifle more than most of us on this site.

I agree with the 30 cal magnum for dummies sentiment. It makes it easier to just get a 300 PRC chamber (and not have to worry about 10 different 'match' variants), and factory match or ELDX ammo and go put some energy on something out there a ways.

I'm not going to say every Norma mag has 50-80fps ES ( I don't think that's necessarily what Neal meant, either), but I do have the feeling that the PRC on average will be a little more lenient ES/SD-wise with load development. JMO, YMMV, etc. Overall, a good, modern magnum.

I've got a 30" Medium Palma 1:9.5-1:9 gain twist Bartlein, T2A mini chassis (CIP), ARC M10QD, and Nucleus ordered to build one up this coming spring for ventures in the 800-2000yd range. Saving pennies for an AMG 6-24.

 

[Milepost]

As I see it , the main issue with the acceptance of the 300 PRC will be based Hornady's reputation for producing inconsistent high quality brass.

IMO - They should come out with a line of match grade brass and then have several third party tests done to confirm their brass measures up to or exceeds Lapua, RWS, Ruag, ADG, Peterson, Norma etc.... This would go a long way for the long term success of any new cartridge they design including the the 300 & 6.5 PRC

The type of people that get involved in ELR and stay with it for the long term are willing to spend the extra money to for high quality brass. They all hand load and develop pet loads for their comp rifle. Everything you buy in this sport is on the expensive side anyway and good brass is no different.

The 300 prc has a lot of well thought out positive attributes but why build a dream house on a shitty foundation? C'mon Hornady give us some decent brass!

 

[nick338]

As I see it , the main issue with the acceptance of the 300 PRC will be based Hornady's reputation for producing inconsistent high quality brass.

IMO - They should come out with a line of match grade brass and then have several third party tests done to confirm their brass measures up to or exceeds Lapua, RWS, Ruag, ADG, Peterson, Norma etc.... This would go a long way for the long term success of any new cartridge they design including the the 300 & 6.5 PRC

The type of people that get involved in ELR and stay with it for the long term are willing to spend the extra money to for high quality brass. They all hand load and develop pet loads for their comp rifle. Everything you buy in this sport is on the expensive side anyway and good brass is no different.

The 300 prc has a lot of well thought out positive attributes but why build a dream house on a shitty foundation? C'mon Hornady give us some decent brass!

Kind of wonder why we are still having this conversation. I get the fact that they mass produce a lot of ammo but why bring out match hunting and target bullets and still offer the same shitty brass. It's not like this hasn't been well known knowledge for years.

 

[B-P-UU]

300 PRC seems like a 30 cal magnum for dummies, and I mean that in the best way possible. It brings a chamber design typically reserved for custom rifles to the masses. But for the competent handloader using custom barrels chambered with custom reamers (the majority of people here I suspect), it isn't breaking any new ground. It does a bunch of things right, but nothing that you can't do with a Norma, Nosler, or Win Mag. Hornady should be applauded for bringing such a modern chamber design to the masses, but let's not get carried away with hyperbole. And don't forget, Hornady brass sucks donkey balls.

This is exactly what they did with the 6.5 Creedmoor over a decade ago...

 

[Ledzep]

What's the biggest gripe with Hornady brass?

From what I've read and seen, it doesn't handle high pressure as well as Lapua, for example. Primer pockets let go before anything else IME.

Does anyone have issues with inconsistent volume or ES/SD with it? I have never experienced that, just curious if it's an issue, or a perceived issue.

My experience has been that if you keep it under 60-65ksi, it's great brass. If you spike it up, primer pockets fail.

 

[surgeon260]

Primer pockets as you mentioned. Also big variances in weight (volume), inconsistent neck thickness (measure the neck thickness at multiple points), inconsistent OAL, lot to lot variances.

Admittedly it's been a few years since I've used it. But in the past I've tried 223, 260, 7RM, and 300WM and it's been consistently inconsistent.

 

[Milepost]

Kind of wonder why we are still having this conversation. I get the fact that they mass produce a lot of ammo but why bring out match hunting and target bullets and still offer the same shitty brass. It's not like this hasn't been well known knowledge for years.

Most likely it is related to having too many bean counters in the board room...Seems that many large companies have this issue.

It takes a long time for a company to build a reputation of quality and no time to trash it!

 

[spife7980]

If they made better brass it would also cost more. Hornadys biggest selling point is that it isnt quite as expensive as the better alternatives. So... its the bean counters, sure.