308 vs. 6.5 Creed in 16 inch lightweight bolt gun for mountain trekking

[Nivium]

I'm going to put together a super lightweight short action bolt gun for long distance trekking, and the barrel will be 14.5" p/w, 16" or, at the most, 16.5". Range will generally be within 300 yards, but opportunities for 600 yard shots on sheep are not uncommon. I would also like this to be a muley/elk gun, but the ranges on elk will obviously be closer. Will probably always be used with a can.

Don't have as much time to handload as I used to, so factory ammo will be used, probably at least half of the time.

There is a lot of discussion on here about short bbl 6.5 and creeds, and the 308 vs. 6.5 creed argument seems to never end. BUT, I am yet to see a good discussion pitting the .308 against the 6.5 creed with the caveat that the host barrel cannot exceed 16.5 inches.

I know the 6.5 creed is most efficient out of a 24" barrel or longer, whereas the 308 is more efficient than the 6.5 creed in shorter 16"-18" barrels. Ballistically, when we are talking 14.5-16 inch barrels, my math says the 308 and 6.5 creed are pretty close, with the 308 winning on energy inside of 200-300 yards. Any input on this?

Any other cartridge you would recommend? Not asking you to throw some wildcat in the ring here. I at least want to pick one that I can get decent amounts of hunting grade factory ammo for, and I want it short action for weight. Doesn't have to be 308 or 6.5 creed, but if handloading is a MUST for the cartridge, it's of no use to me right now.

Thanks

 

[bluegrasspicker]

I can't speak to the availability or quality of factory ammo for it, but it sounds to me like a 7mm08 is worth looking into for your needs.

 

[Nivium]

I can't speak to the availability or quality of factory ammo for it, but it sounds to me like a 7mm08 is worth looking into for your needs.

Thanks for the response. I think it is probably too difficult to find 7mm08 factory ammo, but why specifically do you think the 7mm08? As far as I know, it is like the creedmoor, in that it is optimized for a longer barrel. Am I under the wrong impression?

 

[Digetydog]

I heard an interesting podcast (The Fierce Life - by the people who run Fierce rifles) where they go over using short barrels in bolt action rifles. They suggest using magnum cartridges with short barrels.

 

[Bender]

6.5 > .308 +700

6.5 = .308 @ -700

 

[DeRico]

Ammo Availability drove me to go .308. Price is not what I want but atleast I can stop anywhere that sells ammo and pick up boxes.

 

[jbuck88]

I like the 308win for a short barreled hunting rifle.

 

[bluegrasspicker]

Thanks for the response. I think it is probably too difficult to find 7mm08 factory ammo, but why specifically do you think the 7mm08? As far as I know, it is like the creedmoor, in that it is optimized for a longer barrel. Am I under the wrong impression?

I get a little north of 2600fps out of a 20" barrel with hi-bc 162 grain bullets in the 7mm08. I used to run hotter, but that's a nice stable load that doesn't beat up brass at all. Those are the old amaxes that I'm quickly running out of, but for hunting there's an eldx bullet at the same weight. I've never tried it. I think it has comparable bc.

But you asked about factory ammo. I'm not sure if you can get 162 grain factory hunting ammo.

Just to use up another 20% of your life and to make sure that you have 200 tabs open on your internet browser and don't get any sleep for the next four days... Run some #s with the jbm ballistics calculator. It'll calculate the dope and the energy at range for you. Look up typical muzzle speeds for the ammo/barrel lengths you're interested in as well as the bcs, plug it in, and presto! No sleep for four days!

The numbers don't lie!

 

[Nivium]

I like the 308win for a short barreled hunting rifle.

I agree, and that's what I'm leaning towards. That or 300WSM. But, can I ask why you think 308? Is it the efficiency out of a shorter barrel?

 

[ma smith]

seems each cartridge has a limit where it falls off dramatically,
but how much true long range are you shooting with this gun?

 

[jbuck88]

I agree, and that's what I'm leaning towards. That or 300WSM. But, can I ask why you think 308? Is it the efficiency out of a shorter barrel?

Opinions are like assholes, but my thoughts are.

More efficient in a shorter barrel.
Bullet selection.
Larger .308>.264 leads to better energy transfer, which comes down to bullet selection.


If your willing to put up with a whole lot more blast for a few more fps then maybe a 300wsm.

My main hunting rifles are a 24" 300wsm, 20" 6.5cm and 16" 308win.

 

[KnowNothing256]

While you’re running ballistic numbers, throw in deflection by a 3-5 mph wind, which is a reasonable estimate of a blown wind call (very easy to do in the mountains).

I’m also surprised to hear you say the elk shots would obv be closer; a sheep at 600 yds is a pretty low-percentage shot with a shorty 308, while elk vitals give you a lot more room for error.

30% more energy on target doesn’t help much if you put the bullet in the intestines…

 

[jbuck88]

Running 143eldX vs 168eld's.
Shooter is showing 1.2mil vs 1.5mil with a 90° 10mph wind at 600yds

 

[B y r o n]

More than anything, I think bullet selection would be your primary concern between these two calibers. Either round will get the job done but the effectiveness of the bullet will make the difference.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Biggest thing is going to be impact velocity at any given distance for the bullet to expand to the effective. I don’t think that’s going to happen with either of your options in those barrel lengths if you want performance to 600 yards. Step it up to 18” and there’s some 6.5 bullet options that will work.

If you want a badass lightweight packable hunting rifle pick up a Q Fix, an 18-20” Proof CF 6.5 barrel, some Barnes 127gr LRX ammo and do the damn thing. It’s perfect for what you’re looking for.

 

[Nivium]

While you’re running ballistic numbers, throw in deflection by a 3-5 mph wind, which is a reasonable estimate of a blown wind call (very easy to do in the mountains).

I’m also surprised to hear you say the elk shots would obv be closer; a sheep at 600 yds is a pretty low-percentage shot with a shorty 308, while elk vitals give you a lot more room for error.

30% more energy on target doesn’t help much if you put the bullet in the intestines…

You ain't wrong. The obviously closer comment was meant to say that if I'm going with a creed or 308, since they are a little smaller than my ideal elk cartridge, I wouldn't be taking a 500 yard shot. If I had my 338, might be more willing to take a tough shot on a big bull.

Noted on wind. Thanks

 

[Nivium]

seems each cartridge has a limit where it falls off dramatically,
but how much true long range are you shooting with this gun?

Not a ton, but definitely some occasional 600 yard sheep shots and 400 yard elk/muley shots

 

[Nivium]

Just to use up another 20% of your life and to make sure that you have 200 tabs open on your internet browser and don't get any sleep for the next four days... Run some #s with the jbm ballistics calculator. It'll calculate the dope and the energy at range for you. Look up typical muzzle speeds for the ammo/barrel lengths you're interested in as well as the bcs, plug it in, and presto! No sleep for four days!

The numbers don't lie!

I'm down to spend the time and love staring at ballistics charts but how do I go about it, given I don't know the velocities to expect as I reduce barrel length? Is there something I'm missing with JBM?

 

[CaptArab]

Folks are having great luck on game with the 147 eldm down to 1800 fps. That's 600 ish with a 16" 6.5 CM.

Good luck finding a bullet that will carry that velocity past 475 or so with a 308. Velocity will suck with any decently high BC bullet. plus recoil will be a factor in a lighter weight rifle.

You definitely want the 6.5, if not a 6mm or 22 creedmoor.

 

[CaptArab]

I'm guessing you could get a 16" 109 ELM-M up to 2800 based off this-

https://rifleshooter.com/2017/01/6-creedmoor-barrel-length-versus-muzzle-velocity-31-to-17-inches/

The Hornady calculator puts that at 1818 fps at 650 yards using whatever their default environment is.

Who really needs more than that? Screw the recoil, buy something that's actually fun to shoot.

 

[XP1K]

Been a long time since I looked at it but what about a 338 federal ?

Not sure about factory ammo but hodgdon shows a 200gr running 2600-2660fps. In a 24". Same 24" barrel in a 308 with a 200gr maxes out a little over 2500fps.

No replacement for displacement they say. I think I'd stretch the barrel length to 18" also. But that's just me.

I had a 16" 308 bolt gun but sold it. Had a 1:8 lilja on it. There are times I wish I had it back.

 

[XP1K]

Folks are having great luck on game with the 147 eldm down to 1800 fps. That's 600 ish with a 16" 6.5 CM.

Good luck finding a bullet that will carry that velocity past 475 or so with a 308. Velocity will suck with any decently high BC bullet. plus recoil will be a factor in a lighter weight rifle.

You definitely want the 6.5, if not a 6mm or 22 creedmoor.

Friend of mine guides and does a fair amount of long range hunting himself. The crowd he runs with favor the 28 noslers and the big 30 cals. 300 rum, 300 Norma improved and the 300 prc. 7mm they like the berger 195 eol but for the 30's they like the 215 berger hybrids better than anything.

Second best for them are the eld-m's. They thought the eld-x was going to be the ticket but they just didn't put animals down like the eld-m.

 

[ma smith]

Friend of mine guides and does a fair amount of long range hunting himself. The crowd he runs with favor the 28 noslers and the big 30 cals. 300 rum, 300 Norma improved and the 300 prc. 7mm they like the berger 195 eol but for the 30's they like the 215 berger hybrids better than anything.

Second best for them are the eld-m's. They thought the eld-x was going to be the ticket but they just didn't put animals down like the eld-m.

what are common engagement distances?

 

[Digetydog]

I agree, and that's what I'm leaning towards. That or 300WSM. But, can I ask why you think 308? Is it the efficiency out of a shorter barrel?

If you are considering a 300WSM, get it. Yes, you'll lose 200 fps over a WSM in a 24" barrel. But, you'll still have a significant fps advantage over a 308.

Ruger even made a super short factory 16.5" carbine for a while In 300 WSM.

Rare Discontinued Ruger M77 Frontier Rifle .300 WSM Laminate... : 961669098

Buy a Ruger Firearm is used in excellent condition. Very clean overall, no rust and very light signs of use. Cha for sale by Ammo And Arms on GunsAmerica.com the best online marketplace for buying and selling semi auto pistols, firearms, accessories, and collectibles : 961669098

www.gunsamerica.com

Short Barrel Performance Loss — Ron Spomer Outdoors

Do short barrel rifles sacrifice too much velocity and downrange performance? You might be surprised. We investigate short barrel velocity loss.

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

 

[XP1K]

what are common engagement distances?

600-900 yards. One guy killed a nilgai, I probably spelled that wrong, with a 338 edge shooting the eld-m at 980 ish.

 

[powdahound76]

A 155 AMAX in Hornady Black ammo in .308 has been something for me out of 18-22” rifles.

18” with a .308 and a lighter bullet will do you well at those distances.

 

[CaptArab]

OP wants a 16" featherweight and folks are recommending 338s and 300 mags. SMDH.

This place is a circus when it comes to actual hunting rifles.

OP- buy a case of either this

Hornady: MATCH 6.5 Creedmoor, 147gr ELD , 20/Box

Hornady 81501: These jackets feature near-zero wall thickness variation, resulting in unprecedented concentricity and uniformity throughout the jacket.

www.milehighshooting.com

Or this

Hornady: MATCH 6mm Creedmoor, 108gr ELD , 20/Box

Hornady 81391: Hornady components are inspected to ensure uniformity, then loaded to exacting specifications to provide pinpoint accuracy. 20 rounds.

www.milehighshooting.com

If you want cheap and easy, just buy a Tikka t3x lite in 6.5 creedmoor, send it to LRI or similar for chop and thread, mount a SWFA 6x, and call it a day.

Another cool option albeit much harder to source would be the Howa mini action carbon stalker in 6 arc using the factory Hornady ammo of the same line I posted above. Once you chop it, it's probably not expanding at 600 but it's probably safe to assume your skills aren't there yet anyhow (600 is a long shot with a featherweight).

 

[jbuck88]

Shoot the easy button is grabbing a 16" Sig Cross. I'd recommend playing with the buttstock to make sure it has a good hinge. Mine was gtg, but there are some with slop in them. Sounds like Sig is replacing those ones if you call and complain.

 

[Digetydog]

OP wants a 16" featherweight and folks are recommending 338s and 300 mags. SMDH.

This place is a circus when it comes to actual hunting rifles.

OP- buy a case of either this

Hornady: MATCH 6.5 Creedmoor, 147gr ELD , 20/Box

Hornady 81501: These jackets feature near-zero wall thickness variation, resulting in unprecedented concentricity and uniformity throughout the jacket.

www.milehighshooting.com

Or this

Hornady: MATCH 6mm Creedmoor, 108gr ELD , 20/Box

Hornady 81391: Hornady components are inspected to ensure uniformity, then loaded to exacting specifications to provide pinpoint accuracy. 20 rounds.

www.milehighshooting.com

If you want cheap and easy, just buy a Tikka t3x lite in 6.5 creedmoor, send it to LRI or similar for chop and thread, mount a SWFA 6x, and call it a day.

Another cool option albeit much harder to source would be the Howa mini action carbon stalker in 6 arc using the factory Hornady ammo of the same line I posted above. Once you chop it, it's probably not expanding at 600 but it's probably safe to assume your skills aren't there yet anyhow (600 is a long shot with a featherweight).

He said he was considering a 300 WSM. I assume he is considering hunting something that needs more more than a 6.5cm.

 

[RPN]

He said he was considering a 300 WSM. I assume he is considering hunting something that needs more more than a 6.5cm.

Did you read the thread title?
308 vs 6.5 CM.....
I've got a 16" 260 Rem that I use for 0-600m deer and it seems to work ok. I'm getting 2750 with 123 sst's and 2560 with 156 Norma Oryx. The Oryx shoots 1" lower @ 100, so they get used for close in big stuff, and the sst's for 250 on out.
In an ideal world if components weren't an issue I guess a 7mm or 300 SAUM would be the go.

 

[Digetydog]

Did you read the thread title?
308 vs 6.5 CM.....
I've got a 16" 260 Rem that I use for 0-600m deer and it seems to work ok. I'm getting 2750 with 123 sst's and 2560 with 156 Norma Oryx. The Oryx shoots 1" lower @ 100, so they get used for close in big stuff, and the sst's for 250 on out.
In an ideal world if components weren't an issue I guess a 7mm or 300 SAUM would be the go.

yes I also read his follow up post.

"I agree, and that's what I'm leaning towards. That or 300WSM. But, can I ask why you think 308? Is it the efficiency out of a shorter barrel?"

 

[bluegrasspicker]

I'm down to spend the time and love staring at ballistics charts but how do I go about it, given I don't know the velocities to expect as I reduce barrel length? Is there something I'm missing with JBM?

That's why it's 20% of your remaining life and not 10% :^)

For the velocities part of your question, I do a bunch of searching around to get typical values for muzzle speed. If I can't find them, I add ~25 fps per inch of barrel or subtract the same if I can only find data for a nearby barrel-caliber-bullet weight configuration.

It's not an exact science. You just do your best and then make your decision based on your best effort.

If you do that, you'll most likely be happy with the result.

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

I understand where you are going with this but my take on hunting rifles is that any rifle, I carry into the woods needs to be able to stop the largest most dangerous game in those woods. I would hunt a Tikka 300 WSM or a TC Encore .375 H&H with folding stock and 22 in barrel (to get it over 26 in oal.)
your mileage may vary.

 

[long range sponge]

A little video from @coldboremiracle. Build a .260 and feed it some of these. (Below)

But then again, I'm not an avid hunter or long range shooter, so...

 

[Supersubes]

Thanks for the response. I think it is probably too difficult to find 7mm08 factory ammo, but why specifically do you think the 7mm08? As far as I know, it is like the creedmoor, in that it is optimized for a longer barrel. Am I under the wrong impression?

I agree, and that's what I'm leaning towards. That or 300WSM. But, can I ask why you think 308? Is it the efficiency out of a shorter barrel?

A 7-08 is just a 308 win necked to .284. You may already know this.

It splits your two choices right down the middle. A goldilocks cartridge if you will, which makes it popular for hunters in your dilemma.

You should get away from the whole cartridge efficiency idea, optimized for this barrel or that, etc. thats BS. The velocity decay per inch is pretty linear across both your candidates. Youre never going to know how fast it’ll go until you pick one and shoot it. For the sake of JBM comparisons, pick reasonable speed numbers from published data(not the hide), and shave 30fps per inch of barrel lost.

 

[XP1K]

A 7-08 is just a 308 win necked to .284. You may already know this.

It splits your two choices right down the middle. A goldilocks cartridge if you will, which makes it popular for hunters in your dilemma.

You should get away from the whole cartridge efficiency idea, optimized for this barrel or that, etc. thats BS. The velocity decay per inch is pretty linear across both your candidates. Youre never going to know how fast it’ll go until you pick one and shoot it. For the sake of JBM comparisons, pick reasonable speed numbers from published data(not the hide), and shave 30fps per inch of barrel lost.

For a good lightweight hunting gun my wife's model 7 in 7-08 is a pretty sweet package. Your not hanging a can on that pencil barrel but it's a handy and capable rifle. Shoots pretty good for factory too.

I think your dead on about worrying about picking a cartridge "optimized" for a short barrel length. Pick one you like that has good ammo available and shoot it. Don't worry about if it's shooting the latest and greatest, most sleek sexy bullet out at this moment in time.

 

[Bigwilly556]

Just went through the same situation. Ended up building a 308 for availability. I do reload but also want to find factory ammo if needed. Mine isn't quite as light as you want your but it gives you an idea. 600 yards may be pushing it but 155 eldm should get close, but that winds gonna blow.

Manners eh4 with gen 1 mini chassis
Anti X
Proof sendero

It's about 5.6 pounds but you could get it lower without the mini chassis. I believe I'm going to order a mdt hnt26 to shave off 10 oz.

 

[Nivium]

Just went through the same situation. Ended up building a 308 for availability. I do reload but also want to find factory ammo if needed. Mine isn't quite as light as you want your but it gives you an idea. 600 yards may be pushing it but 155 eldm should get close, but that winds gonna blow.

Manners eh4 with gen 1 mini chassis
Anti X
Proof sendero

It's about 5.6 pounds but you could get it lower without the mini chassis. I believe I'm going to order a mdt hnt26 to shave off 10 oz.

Very nice, that's almost exactly what I'm envisioning. How are you liking the anti X? That a 16" bbl?

 

[Bigwilly556]

Love the anti x but I'm a bit of a defiance fanboy. But if your looking to shave some more weight go with the anti, no base and Talley type rings. 16.5 proof sendero and I almost went with the proof sendero light but have heard some mixed reviews. I also have a Ultra 5 in jail that would be better suited for a sendero profile.

 

[BruceLeroy]

I will address a different part of your question. A 14.5 pinned and welded is a waste of speed, although not much, and money. Just stick to a 16 inch.
As far as selecting a cartridge...either is fine within ethical distances. There will be little to no difference. I shoot a 16 inch 308 and mostly use 168 eldm. At sea level I am above 1800 fps and at 1250 ft lbs at 500 yards. At 9500 ft I am the same at 650. A Creedmoor will beat it in drop, a little speed, and a bit in wind deflection. Energy goes to 308.
Just go build a rifle you can find ammo for.

 

[STLSteve86]

16” .308 is my woods deer gun and under 500 yards.

 

[Long Range 338]

Shoot the easy button is grabbing a 16" Sig Cross. I'd recommend playing with the buttstock to make sure it has a good hinge. Mine was gtg, but there are some with slop in them. Sounds like Sig is replacing those ones if you call and complain.

Exactly. 308 and enjoy being able to shoot. Factory ammo in 6.5 is just now making a comeback after 2.5 years and the price is ridiculous.

 

[jbuck88]

The anti-x would be nice and I'll probably end up with one. However according the the actual numbers. My 16" 308win shooting factory 168gr ammo is equal energy wise to my 20" 6.5cm shooting 143ELDx handloads at 250yds. Somewhere around 1,500ft-lb.

 

[HaydenLane]

The idea of efficiency in short barrels mostly revolves around gaining velocity by using light for caliber bullets, for example a 140 gr 7mm or .308 bullet is faster than a 140 gr 6.5 mm bullet out of equal length barrels. The obvious trade-off is you’ll lose BC (decrease efficiency) and increase recoil.

Energy on target isn’t relevant unless you’re trying to see splash on steel at long range.

IMO a 6 CM shooting 103-110 gr bullets would be a great fit, but a 6.5 CM shooting 120-130 gr pills would be sweet, too. I’d want a bit more velocity than 140s offer.

 

[jbuck88]

Energy on target isn’t relevant unless you’re trying to see splash on steel at long range.

This is not true. He is looking for a hunting rifle. So energy on target is hugely relevant.

 

[HaydenLane]

This is not true. He is looking for a hunting rifle. So energy on target is hugely relevant.

This will probably derail the thread entirely, but I disagree. There’s no evidence energy kills. Destroying tissue kills, and that’s achieved by impacting above the velocity threshold at which your bullet of choice expands (and choosing the right bullet).

 

[jbuck88]

This is the hide. No thread is safe. Lol.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But to clarify that the initial bullet expansion is due to velocity. The energy would be how far that expanded bullet can penetrate and maintain the needed velocity to keep damaging tissue.

So yes they are related and imo you need to taylor your bullet selection to your hunt.

 

[jbuck88]

Now back on topic. I just tried my 16" 308 on a 2/3 ipsc at 920yds. I was using factory 168gr FGMM and it was starting to get some randomness. I might have to do some handloading to make it work. I think I was going transsonic around 840yds.

 

[White Mamba]

Ive used both of those calibers for many years as well as a 14.5 grendel pinned to 16". I never had problems with any out to 600yards on deer and pigs, never tried elk though. You will be fine with either.

 

[PhilOX11]

I know you want a 16" barrel, but if you do want 6.5CM, stretch to an 18" barrel and get a Sig Cross & try Winchester Deer 125g. For the range you were talking about you will not have any trouble.