I'm at 2840 with a berger 168 using both varget and Rl15. I'm at 2708 with the 195tmk with CFE 223 COAL 2.940 single feed in my gun.
Higher than Sierria's book max for a 168mk by a substantial amount. In my rifle it's safe. If your rifle will run FGMM 175smk's in the 2740 range you might get the speed I'm seeing as that is what the faster lots of FGMM run in my rifle. Slower lots run 2704-2720
I keep trying other types of brass but always come back to lapua
I also checked it on my pro chrono & my friends chrony and they were consistent within 10 FPS of each other. I thought the same thing you did, it seems high. I also loaded Winchester brass with 50gr cfe that only got 2900 FPS. I ran the ballistics in my strelok & shot at 550 & 900 yards & it’s was dead on accurate with 2930 FPS plugged in. Hodgdons site said 49gr would produce 2830 I think so I was expecting around the same for my 49gr but I was getting 2900fps & with 49.5gr 2930 FPS with lapua. Winchester brass was almost dead on with hodgdon site 49gr at 2835 & 50gr at 2900 FPS but lapua brass was running faster with less powder & less pressure signs. The sd in lapua was better too around 8 FPS where the Winchester was 15-20 FPS
One thought I had was the powder space between the lapua & Winchester was pretty obvious. Winchester had a lot of room & lapua was compressed
I guess time will tell??? ?It's hard to say. I've run Lehigh 150's over 3030 with no issue. I also run 195tmk's at 2707 again with no issues. I can run those loads charge wise in LC 118lr Lapua or 1x fired FC or Winchester with just some longer case prep for domestic or LC brass. CFE has run well for me with these 2 bullets I'm sure you could run 168's really fast too. For me, a comp load needs to shoot 20-40 shot groups, not 3-5 shot groups. Running hard doesn't stay together in my rifle like 2635fps.The only thing I can think of to explain it is that maybe the batch of CFE 223 you're got is a particularly hot lot and well above what is normal for that particular powder.
Yeah next time I go out I’m going to run 100 rounds at 49.5 & 49gr & check to see if it stays consistent. I shot 15 rounds in total at 49.5gr cfe lapua 168 eldm combo & got the same results of around 2930
Yeah it has to be making pressure to get the velocities I’m getting but I’m not seeing it on the brass much until 50gr. When it comes to the tmk bullets I get a lot of pressure signs earlier than smk or eldm. I think the eldm design has a shorter bearing surface & can be pushed harder than the tmk, at least in my experience with 175 & 168 vs the eldm 178 & 168. I’m going to run the same loads again & see what happens. Hodgdon says cfe 168gr 2830 FPS with 60k psi Winchester brass. So I’m 100 FPS faster with in a smaller lapua case with 49.5gr so I know it’s over pressure but I’m not seeing anything that would make me concerned, it’s barely flat primers no other signs. At 50gr I’m getting a little ejector swipe but not too bad no sticky bolt. So a little more testing & I might buy more cfe to see how it does vs the batch I haveThree years ago I did some load development for CFE 223 for a 20" factory barrel in 90° weather for a 175 SMK and was averaging about 50 fps higher that what QuickLoad calculated. When I plug in a 168 TMK, the calculated velocity jumps up by ~100 fps. Then when I put in 49.5 grs, with the TMK the velocity is at 2799 fps (pressure at an extremely hot 74,392 psi) . . . for a 20" barrel. For a 24" barrel, that high pressure stays the same, but MV goes to 2897 fps..
I dunno . . . it seems to me that, basically, no matter what powder you're using, it takes a LOT of pressure to push a 168 gr bullet from a .308 to 2900 fps.
View attachment 7248964
I wonder what quickload says when you change from 90* to 50* degrees & tmk to eldm & lapua brass. I’m sure that the tmk long bearing surface makes the pressure spike. I think the smk & eldm 168 have a shorter surface & less pressure. If hodgdon is getting 60k psi at 2830 with the 168 & Winchester I would think that mine must not be a lot higher or I would get signs. I really think it’s the brass that’s giving me higher velocity. At 49gr I’m 2880-2900 FPS & 49.5gr 2930. So I’m up 50-70 FPS over what hodgdon is getting at 60k psi. So I think I’m over pressure of 60k but how much I’m not sure but the cases are looking pretty good at 49-49.5 with 49.5 slightly flattened & 50gr showing ejector swipe a little & a little more flat primers than 49.5gr but no stick bolt liftThree years ago I did some load development for CFE 223 for a 20" factory barrel in 90° weather for a 175 SMK and was averaging about 50 fps higher that what QuickLoad calculated. When I plug in a 168 TMK, the calculated velocity jumps up by ~100 fps. Then when I put in 49.5 grs, with the TMK the velocity is at 2799 fps (pressure at an extremely hot 74,392 psi) . . . for a 20" barrel. For a 24" barrel, that high pressure stays the same, but MV goes to 2897 fps..
I dunno . . . it seems to me that, basically, no matter what powder you're using, it takes a LOT of pressure to push a 168 gr bullet from a .308 to 2900 fps.
View attachment 7248964
☺ Do you know what your case volume is?I’m pretty sure the case volume was right around 54 + or - a little on some cases for lapua & Winchester was close to 56gr I think but I’ll have to recheck that after I size the cases. Another thing I’ve noticed is the 5r rock creek barrels have ran a little faster too than factory barrels, so that might also have something to do with the extra speedIn QuickLoad, if I just put in the standard numbers (like for COAL of 2.80, case volume of 56.0 gr H2O, 70°F) 49.5 gr pushing the ELDM, it shows an MV of 2817 with a pressure of 60,005 psi . . . which pretty close to what Hogdon shows for 49grs. If I increase COAL to 2.910, that MV drops to 2760 fps. And that's at 70°F or at 50°F it's 2730 fps.
You've got quite a mystery there.
I forgot about twist. There’s a lot of factors to think about. My barrel is a rock creek 5r 1:11.25 twist 24in. My barrel was running faster than my brothers factory rem 700p 26in by about 15 FPS when we tested black hills 175 smk. So my barrel is probably a quick one considering my brothers 700p had 2 more inches but mine was still a little faster
That’s pretty similar to my experience. My rem 5r 24in was 2600 with 175 fgmm & when replaced with the rock creek 5r 24in it would get around 2670. Must be a combo of a better barrel & tighter chamber
That was from what we got from 175 fgmm 2570-2600 but closer to 2600 with the rem 5r 24in. The rock creek made 2650-2670 fgmm 175. We switched to black hills 175 because they were as accurate with a much better es. Black hills 175 would run 2600 in the rem 5r & 2670 in the rock creek 24in
Is your krieger a 5r rifling or standard. I think the rock creek & bartlien 5r run faster than most. That’s surprising to me about your krieger speeds. My friends 1:12 26in krieger runs 20-30 FPS faster than yours with fgmm 175. We are shooting in the cal dessert where temps are 55 in the morning & 65-70 in the day iin the day in winter & 60-105 in summer
So going back over my results on my labradar, which is flooded with different cartridges & series. I think that 49gr got 2880 FPS, 49.5gr 2910 FPS, 50gr 2930 FPS in the lapua case. In the Winchester 49gr got 2835 FPS, 49.5gr 2870FPS, & 50gr 2900 FPS. The only thing that makes sense to me is the Winchester had so much more powder space. You can see as the cases started to fill more the fps started coming closer & closer together. In the lapua 49 gr was pretty full but not in the Winchester at all. I need to go back to using notebooks to correlate data from the labradar & use regular paper targets instead of adhesive reactive targets so I can log my results better, just been lazy but it happens when your disabled. After talking to a few local smiths they just said some barrels run faster than others & good 5r barrels seem to be faster than factory barrels by 50-100 FPS & most often 50-70 FPS fasterIt's a 5r
Since my twist is 1:10, that likely explains a good portion of that difference in speed.
My shooting is in AZ dessert (around Phoenix) with similar temps. Though summers are . . . a bit warmer!
There are 10 grains on average difference from Winchester to Lapua. Then LC is 5 grains heavier and 3 more if it's M118LR. When I swage the crimp out of LC different lots will have much thicker case head webs to the point I have to adjust the pin depth to swage out the crimp. Those cases run the same speed .6 grains less powder using Rl15 to Lapua.
After testing smk, tmk, & elem, the eldm was the fastest with the least pressure signs. Tmk for me had pressure early with varget. I’ll try h4895 with the 175 tmk & see what happens since I still have a lot of them left. Try Winchester & lapua to see if you get different speeds like mine. I built my chamber long so I could use accurate mags 2.95in oal. The long chamber might be why Winchester is usually slower than lapuaYou're exactly right. Because Winchester brass has more case capacity/space (due to thinner wall construction) velocity will be less given the same powder charge. To get the same velocity from a Winchester case as something like a Lapua case, one needs to use more powder. However, it's a little more complicated than that as seating depth plays an important part as the amount of power vs. the volume it sits in will determine the pressure pushing the bullet where the velocity comes from. So, because one can put more powder in a Winchester case, one can actually get a little more velocity with it than cases with less volume depending on the amount of powder and the seating depth. MV is really mostly about the pressure curve the particular load produces.
That's my understanding too, that some barrels run faster than others. I would say that has a lot to do with the chamber configuration as the chamber configuration in relation to the cartridge also effects the pressure curve and how it pushes the bullet. Then there's the construction of the bore where some bores diameter's are tighter than others.
Then there's the bullet construction with different bearing surfaces than can affect MV.
lol . . . so many factors involved, almost makes my brain hurt.
The fastest I've gotten out of my .308 with the 26" Krieger SS barrel was 2793 fps for a 175 Nosler CC bullet pushed by 43.0 gr H4895 and had clear pressure signs. Close to that was a 175 TMK at 2769 fps pushed by 42.0 gr of H4895 (175 SMK was 20 fps slower than the TMK with the same charge). Though I was interested in an accuracy node for a higher velocity, I didn't feel a need to go any higher as around 2670 to 2725 seems to be plenty for shooting 175 gr bullets at 1000 yds.
Maybe one day for fun I'll experiment with some ELD's to see if I might be able to get something like the MV's you're getting.
