.308 Winchester

[climbing1]

I got a great deal on a bunch of 168 ELDM’s. I usually shoot the 178’s and have had great results with Varget and Staball Match.

Any other suggestions out there worth trying?

210’s primers

24” 1/11

 

[357Max]

I got a great deal on a bunch of 168 ELDM’s. I usually shoot the 178’s and have had great results with Varget and Staball Match.

Any other suggestions out there worth trying?

210’s primers

24” 1/11

RL 15.5

 

[Rob01]

Varget and the 168 ELDs is a great combo. One I use in my match rifle.

 

[db2000]

So back to my question. If the bullet is extending further into the chamber and leaving more room in the cartridge can the powder load be increased safely?

In case you’re not aware, you will likely need to reduce your load in your gas guns from your bolt guns to avoid potentially dangerous pressures.

 

[45-90]

I never jam bullets into the rifling. That causes a big pressure spike of about 10,000 psi...plus if you unload it the bullet can stick on the barrel, making a big powder mess in the chamber and down the barrel.
Bullets have a variation on the ogive or radius of the point...some are better than others, and can change from lot to lot.
I am usually backed off .006" as close as I ever get but sometimes much more.
A long jump doesn't matter if the bullet don't care...shot some tiny groups with long jumps.
One can slowly add a fraction of a grain of powder for alot of extra COAL. Until ya hit the lands then the big pressure spike.
So if your looking for accuracy I wouldn't recommend adding powder above the max load, at longer than normal COAL for that cartridge but stay with book max requirements, until one has lots of experience and many thousands of rds down range.
Autos and bolts can take the same load....IF the AR is not one of those in the 6 ARC, Grendel, Valkyrie, Bushmaster, etc low pressure cartridges, weak and thin steel bolts, requires you keep the pressure down.
And IF your boltgun pressures are not quite a bit over max...as many are.
I shoot the same loads in 308, and 5.56 in boltguns as in ARs ...with normal pressure loads, even at book max, and a few +P.
Ya can't just seat a bullet out long and get performance with Varget, it's a good target powder, but not a performance powder, for maximum velocities these days. The magic ain't there, for super high velocity 308 loads.
And a 1/2 grain of powder will not net much more velocity as the extra space has to be filled with propellant gas and still stay inside pressure limits...not worth the squeeze, or worry.
Plus super high velocities are not needed for most shooting endeavors, at moderate to medium ranges...or a few excursions to 1000yds.

 

[climbing1]

Varget and the 168 ELDs is a great combo. One I use in my match rifle.

Yeah man, Varget and 178's have been great. Varget around here is getting spendy though. I think a one #'er was like 69 bucks at my local vs StaBall Match at 54.

Side note, and this may be a dumb question, but I got to thinking about bumping the .002/.003 shoulder off of fire formed practice. So, should all fire formed brass, regardless of brand, reloaded, factory, etc. be the same size to the same rifle in theory? In other words, how are you benchmarking what you are subtracting from? I'd imagine an over-pressured load vs a typical factory load could/would cook off and stretch differently, or is it all the same when it comes to brass heating up and stretching out in a blink. Does one get an average of 5, or is this totally dependent on specific brass? Does this make any sense? lol

Last, what's more important to get right, the case size or OAL sneaking up on the lands? Both? Is it all "test and learn"

Where I'm coming from is I've been reloading for a little while, but it's been pretty much to SAAMI. Would like to see if this makes a meaningful difference.

 

[Rob01]

Yeah man, Varget and 178's have been great. Varget around here is getting spendy though. I think a one #'er was like 69 bucks at my local vs StaBall Match at 54.

Side note, and this may be a dumb question, but I got to thinking about bumping the .002/.003 shoulder off of fire formed practice. So, should all fire formed brass, regardless of brand, reloaded, factory, etc. be the same size to the same rifle in theory? In other words, how are you benchmarking what you are subtracting from? I'd imagine an over-pressured load vs a typical factory load could/would cook off and stretch differently, or is it all the same when it comes to brass heating up and stretching out in a blink. Does one get an average of 5, or is this totally dependent on specific brass? Does this make any sense? lol

Last, what's more important to get right, the case size or OAL sneaking up on the lands? Both? Is it all "test and learn"

Where I'm coming from is I've been reloading for a little while, but it's been pretty much to SAAMI. Would like to see if this makes a meaningful difference.

Check out some of the VV powders. They are cheaper and work well.

You are way overthinking it. You will be using the same brand of brass as if you aren't then you aren't loading precision rifle ammo. Doesn't matter if the brass was fired as a factory load or you loaded new brass. You measure the shoulder of the brass of the fired cases and subtract .001-002". Measure a few cases and work off the shortest one but they should all be very close as within .001".

You should be measuring the shoulder and the OAL and jump off lands, which .020" is a good place to start.

 

[climbing1]

Check out some of the VV powders. They are cheaper and work well.

You are way overthinking it. You will be using the same brand of brass as if you aren't then you aren't loading precision rifle ammo. Doesn't matter if the brass was fired as a factory load or you loaded new brass. You measure the shoulder of the brass of the fired cases and subtract .001-002". Measure a few cases and work off the shortest one but they should all be very close as within .001".

You should be measuring the shoulder and the OAL and jump off lands, which .020" is a good place to start.

Thank you, Rob.

 

[Didodadday]

I recently purchased some reconditioned brass brand name-Topbrass. Anyone have any experience with this brand? I looks nice and the bag says it has been sized, cleaned etc. I noticed as I was resizing the neck small clippings of brass were coming off. I know they have not been annealed. Any input regarding quality or what I need to watch for is appreciated.

 

[Old Corps 8541]

I recently purchased some reconditioned brass brand name-Topbrass. Anyone have any experience with this brand? I looks nice and the bag says it has been sized, cleaned etc. I noticed as I was resizing the neck small clippings of brass were coming off. I know they have not been annealed. Any input regarding quality or what I need to watch for is appreciated.

is "Topbrass" part of the head stamp ? or just what is on the bag ?

 

[Didodadday]

The name on the bag. The brass has LC 15 stamped on the base

 

[stello1001]

The name on the bag. The brass has LC 15 stamped on the base

Then its lake city brass manufactured in 2015.

What we don't know is if it was fired out of machine guns. It probably was.

It'll make alright ammo for plinking.

 

[45-90]

I use a lot of Lake City brass, along with just about every brand in range pick up braas, plus Lapua and hybrid cases in 308.
This 1000 pc order was pulled and contained the primer. Buffed off the sealant and loaded it in the Dillon progressive press, with old $20 per pound W 748 and 15 cent Speer 130 Varmint bullets.
First 5 shots from an AR 10 with an 18" Proof barrel was .3" the 2nd was .4" ....
So I did a little test with a 308 target rifle Lapua brass vs LC ...the Lapua was better by only .1" to .125" with no weight sorting and whatever the military used for primers.
A .1" difference won't make any difference in any informal shooting one is likely to do.
So I use thousands of LC brass in my 308s especially autos. It uses tbe same bushing as Lapua brass in the bushing FL die. It will take the same powder charge but the velocity will be higher because of slightly less volume and one should drop the powder charge about 1/2 to 1 grain, as the case heads seem softer in LC, the primer pocket will expand sooner.
For cheap plinking, get some some surplus powder cheap Speer bullets and a good AR 10 will still shoot 5 shots into .4 to .7 inches.
16" AR 10, 1/2" 5 shot groups all shot with LC brass, nice S/D LC brass.
And shit surplus 540 stick, whatever that is, cheap primed LC brass, still shoots nice groups.
So LC brass is pretty good stuff, it's very cheap, and no worries if ya lose a few.

 

[xsn10s]

I lube inside necks, then mandrel up first.
Size with the FL sizing die, don't lube where the neck is being formed.
Neck turn, and body die.
No dents, no donuts.
Here is the lathe neck turning operation.
It cuts the full 20° angle of the 308, but notice the sharp angle at the neck / shoulder junction. This takes away donut material.
Here is a loaded 308 win 215 gr Berger from the neck turned case.
A better close up of losing the donut.
This formed 338 RCM case necked from 6.5PRC ...note the neck/ shoulder junction sharper angle of the newly formed 338 RCM against the factory 6.5 PRC.
I always cut it completely, neck, radius and shoulder angle...cause I have a lathe.
But hand neck turned into the shoulder will accomplish most of what is needed.

What dies do you use for the FL sizing? I read that we need a special die for the hybrid cases but haven't been able to locate them. TIA

 

[45-90]

What dies do you use for the FL sizing? I read that we need a special die for the hybrid cases but haven't been able to locate them. TIA

No special dies, for 6.8X51 hybrid cases just mandrel up and run through any commercial 308 die. Neck turn and anneal make headspace consistent, and neck turn eliminates donut, when done correctly.
American Reloading has them in stock.
Shellshock bi-metal cases for 9mm and 300 blkout need special dies, because of how they are made.

 

[xsn10s]

No special dies, for 6.8X51 hybrid cases just mandrel up and run through any commercial 308 die. Neck turn and anneal make headspace consistent, and neck turn eliminates donut, when done correctly.
American Reloading has them in stock.
Shellshock bi-metal cases for 9mm and 300 blkout need special dies, because of how they are made.

Awesome thanks. Now I don't whether to load them in my 308 Win or consider trying them in my 260AI. Seems like a 260 AI would be doable since there is less body taper. I could create a false shoulder too and the 30 degree shoulder might make case forming easier.

 

[climbing1]

Weird anomaly today during a new load development with Staball Match. Best guess is I let the barrel cool down a little longer in between vs the others. Check out the velocity drop. Any ideas?

 

[45-90]

Has some wild S/D with weighed charges Varget... it was supposed to be a standard to judge the other powders for accuracy and velocity.
For some unknown reason it was the worst load ever...will revisit it one day.

 

[FuhQ]

I was trying to make a YouTube short but failed, so it's a 1 shot video... Hate on it if you want to, but they don't exactly do a good job of explaining how Shorts work or how to make one...

 

[Hondo64d]

Aero Precision Solus Hunter rebarreled by Jon Beanland with a 20” 1:10 twist Bartlein 3b.

.308s are just so eager to please. I ordered some Berger 168gr Classic Hunters to try, as I had very good results from them in a previous .308. Also picked up a jug of N150. It is much more affordable than Varget and everything I’ve read about it says it performs well in the .308, particularly with heavier bullets. The burn rate charts put it close to H4350, but those who’ve used it claim it’s much closer to Varget, maybe just slightly slower burning. Anyway, as you can see, the combo is very stable. Any one of the four charges would be fine. All are 10 round groups. I’m going to go with the 45.2gr charge. 9 of the ten shots went into .445” and 8 of the ten went into .287”. Gotta love a good .308!

John

 

[nick338]

Speaking of Berger 168 Classic Hunters, these are 2, 10 shot groups shot on separate days with an M1A.

Both are exactly .90 MOA

Left Group
41.2 grs H4895
Virgin Lapua Large Primer Brass
CCI BR4
OAL 2.800"

Right Group
41.7 grs H4895
Virgin Lapua Palma Brass
Fed 205M
OAL 2.800"



Haven't even tried playing with seating depth yet.

 

[jLorenzo]

Speaking of Berger 168 Classic Hunters, these are 2, 10 shot groups shot on separate days with an M1A.

Both are exactly .90 MOA

Left Group
41.2 grs H4895
Virgin Lapua Large Primer Brass
CCI BR4
OAL 2.800"

Right Group
41.7 grs H4895
Virgin Lapua Palma Brass
Fed 205M
OAL 2.800"



Haven't even tried playing with seating depth yet.

View attachment 8533975

What kind of M1A?

 

[Stevo86]

What kind of M1A?

Yes…. Please tell us more

 

[nick338]

Yes…. Please tell us more

See post #2407

Different load but the same rifle.

 

[jLorenzo]

Load data:
169 Sierra Matchking
39.9 grs H4895
CCI BR2
Virgin Lapua cases
CBO 2.136
OAL 2.790

Rifle:
LRB M25 Rear Lug Receiver
Bartlein Heavy 1-11 Stainless 22"
McMillan stock
All the usual M1A Match Tricks
Built by Dave Ferrante of Heart Mountain Precision

View attachment 8452346

What are the usual match tricks? I am not a M1A guy (yet).

 

[nick338]

What are the usual match tricks? I am not a M1A guy (yet).

Unitized gas cylinder
Rear Lug and full bedding job
National Match op rod guide and spring
National Match trigger

 

[jLorenzo]

Unitized gas cylinder
Rear Lug and full bedding job
National Match op rod guide and spring
National Match trigger

Hell of a rifle looking back at your previous posts.

 

[nick338]

Hell of a rifle looking back at your previous posts.

You haven't experienced life if you've never owned some version of an M1A

 

[ColinW]

You haven't experienced life if you've never owned some version of an M1A

My first rifle love was behind an M1A. I greatly treasure mine! Particuarly after a trigger service done by Fulton Armory, with a new hooded rear sight. Just feed em' 168 Smk's behind 41.5gr of Imr-4895. Shoots better than I can with iron sights.

My newest venture next weekend (Pala / Oceanside CA rifle range) will be 185 Berger VLD hunters with 43.0 +/- .2 of Varget with new Alpha brass. Remington 700 with a fitted @PVA M24 barrel with a McMilan A1 stock in woodland camo, 2 stage David tubbs trigger and SWFA 10x. It's a rifle build that I'm super stoked to have.

Stby for results.

 

[nick338]

My first rifle love was behind an M1A. I greatly treasure mine! Particuarly after a trigger service done by Fulton Armory, with a new hooded rear sight. Just feed em' 168 Smk's behind 41.5gr of Imr-4895. Shoots better than I can with iron sights.

My newest venture next weekend (Pala / Oceanside CA rifle range) will be 185 Berger VLD hunters with 43.0 +/- .2 of Varget with new Alpha brass. Remington 700 with a fitted @PVA M24 barrel with a McMilan A1 stock in woodland camo, 2 stage David tubbs trigger and SWFA 10x. It's a rifle build that I'm super stoked to have.

Stby for results.

Just curious, but why the 185 VLD over the Juggernaut?

 

[ColinW]

Just curious, but why the 185 VLD over the Juggernaut?

Simply a matter of supply/demand *edit and over ambition to push my LR shooting skills within the .Tree Oh Eight Winnie's maximum supersonic ranges and beyond. Couldn't find any Juggernauts in stock. The 175 VLDs shoot well in my rifle(still need to find optimal seating depth). So, I figured.....Lets try some 185s!?

 

[806guns]

Anyone using the 174gr eld vt yet seeing little to no data on it?

 

[sinister]

I didn't go back through the entire thread. I like pictures. Maybe this will give some folks ideas for different loads:

Match Kings and Tipped Match Kings:

168, 169, and 175 Match Kings:

https://files.cartools.lv/ballistics/HANDLOADING_308WIN_Laurie_Holland.pdf

 

[sinister]

Ammo loaded correctly can group like this out of field rifles:

 

[nick338]

Ammo loaded correctly can group like this out of field rifles:

View attachment 8547916
View attachment 8547917

Was there a post somewhere that I missed contradicting that?

 

[sinister]

No, not at all. Reinforcing that handloaders produce better than factory mass-produced.

 

[max-x]

Tried the new 174 gr VT from Hornady with N140

44.3gr gave 2550fps and 45gr gave 2600 in a 24" Tikka Rambo with factory barrel. 2.800 oal.

Using .289 G7 to 2100fps and .275 slower seemed to work pretty well

 

[5RWill]

I've been waiting to see any load data of the 174gr ELD VT. I need to pick up some.

 

[stello1001]

I've been waiting to see any load data of the 174gr ELD VT. I need to pick up some.

I bought 100 a while back just to try but haven't shot enough factory ammo to have brass lol.

Hopefully soon I'll be able to post up. I have Tac, varget, and blc2.

 

[806guns]

Wonder how they do in a 20". Probably not worth it in a short barrel configuration

 

[5RWill]

I bought 100 a while back just to try but haven't shot enough factory ammo to have brass lol.

Hopefully soon I'll be able to post up. I have Tac, varget, and blc2.

Would love to see varget. I haven't seen hornady load any 308 ammo yet. I have a feeling given the bearing surface it's going to be slower than comparable 175s.

Wonder how they do in a 20". Probably not worth it in a short barrel configuration

I mean, I had a remington 700 5R back in the day cut to 20" running hornady 178gr BTHP at 2630 with 45.3gr of varget. I think you'll be fine I would just expect it to be slower comparably speaking to most 175gr bullets. Think like 7mm 180gr ELD-M vs the 180gr hybrid. The ELD-M is almost always considerably slower from what I've seen on the 7 sherman short threads. I've been running the ELD-M at 2900 for a couple of years now but that's pushing it.

CC is claiming 2580 out of a 24" tube

https://coppercreekcartridgeco.com/product/308-174vt/

 

[stello1001]

Would love to see varget. I haven't seen hornady load any 308 ammo yet. I have a feeling given the bearing surface it's going to be slower than comparable 175s.


I mean, I had a remington 700 5R back in the day cut to 20" running hornady 178gr BTHP at 2630 with 45.3gr of varget. I think you'll be fine I would just expect it to be slower comparably speaking to most 175gr bullets. Think like 7mm 180gr ELD-M vs the 180gr hybrid. The ELD-M is almost always considerably slower from what I've seen on the 7 sherman short threads. I've been running the ELD-M at 2900 for a couple of years now but that's pushing it.

CC is claiming 2580 out of a 24" tube

https://coppercreekcartridgeco.com/product/308-174vt/

I have a 22.5 shilen and a 25.5 unknown manufacturer custom barrel. If I get to trying, it'll be on the 22.5.

Hopefully I can break 2600

 

[max-x]

This pretty much a ctrl+c with whatever works for the 175/178 club

Back off a grain and a half or whatever and get close to your reasonable speed for barrel length

 

[wvfarrier]

This is one of the most INSANE 308 Win videos I have seen. Its absolutely worth the watch but also fugging nuts. They pushed Berger 215s to well over 300wm velocities in 308 Win. I kept expecting an earth shattering kaboom

 

[nick338]

I will let you know if 2500 fps with a 215 Berger is safely doable in a 24" barrel seated around 2.95 with Lapua brass, as I am doing something very similar to this in a few months. Just waiting on the 9 twist barrel to show up.

 

[babyguppy]

This is one of the most INSANE 308 Win videos I have seen. Its absolutely worth the watch but also fugging nuts. They pushed Berger 215s to well over 300wm velocities in 308 Win. I kept expecting an earth shattering kaboom



View attachment 8580021

The action will take it, until it doesn't.

 

[45-90]

I will let you know if 2500 fps with a 215 Berger is safely doable in a 24" barrel seated around 2.95 with Lapua brass, as I am doing something very similar to this in a few months. Just waiting on the 9 twist barrel to show up.

Yes, with hybrid cases Bartlein 22" 9 twist, but longer single load COAL. 215 gr Bergers will go 2579 fps. But Berger 208 grs at 2634 was more consistent and more accurate in my rifle.
230 gr SMK at 2500 fps in the 22" is accurate.

Been running 200 gr SMK at 2740 in Lapua brass for several yrs in the 9 twist, 22", and 2670 fps n the 18"
And same load 2856 fps in the 30" 8 twist heavy palma long action, 230 gr Atip 2620 fps, 225 gr ELDM 2675 fps. Lapua LR primed cases.
Hybrid cases and 30" barrel will get more speed, and reach 4000 ft/ lbs of muzzle energy in a 308 case.
Safe? Seems to be in my rifles...only have QL to judge approximate pressures.
But not as insane as the ultimate reloader video...I'm not going there.
And Varget is not the powder to get you there, at anything close to safely as shown.

 

[nick338]

Yes, with hybrid cases Bartlein 22" 9 twist, but longer single load COAL. 215 gr Bergers will go 2579 fps. But Berger 208 grs at 2634 was more consistent and more accurate in my rifle.
230 gr SMK at 2500 fps in the 22" is accurate.

Been running 200 gr SMK at 2740 in Lapua brass for several yrs in the 9 twist, 22", and 2670 fps n the 18"
And same load 2856 fps in the 30" 8 twist heavy palma long action, 230 gr Atip 2620 fps, 225 gr ELDM 2675 fps. Lapua LR primed cases.
Hybrid cases and 30" barrel will get more speed, and reach 4000 ft/ lbs of muzzle energy in a 308 case.
Safe? Seems to be in my rifles...only have QL to judge approximate pressures.
But not as insane as the ultimate reloader video...I'm not going there.
And Varget is not the powder to get you there, at anything close to safely as shown.

What powders are you using?

 

[45-90]

What powders are you using?

For 200 gr and under Alliant 2000MR, for 208 and up 6.5 Stabal.
Here's the load data, but these are loaded in hybrid Stainles steel case heads designed to run at 80,000 psi.
Maybe 2.5 to 3 grs less would be your maximum in Lapua Brass. Hybrid cases have more case capacity.

For your information SR Palma brass is 40 fps slower with the same charge as LR primered Lapua brass...plus here it had higher S/D and less accuracy, so I use LR primed Lapua brass with hesvy powder charges.

I don't run the Hybrids to the full 80,000 psi high but leave some for a safety margin, according to QL.

With these cases the 155s are shot at 3100 168 at 2940 from the 22" barrel of a Rem 700, 9 twist 5 R Bartlein barrel 308.

Don't do this at home still applies, the average reloader, or just a velocity hound will get into trouble with standard brass long before they reach these velocities.

Barrels, chambers, reloading practices all play a part in adding or reducing pressure.
Hybrid cases will help but you have to make them, and neck turn them.
Not just throw a bunch of powder into the case haphazardly.

 

[Mean_Man]

This is one of the most INSANE 308 Win videos I have seen. Its absolutely worth the watch but also fugging nuts. They pushed Berger 215s to well over 300wm velocities in 308 Win. I kept expecting an earth shattering kaboom



View attachment 8580021

I just want to know when a company like shell shok or similar will make the two piece cases for .308, they make two piece brass for 5.56x45 and for some reason .300blk… I suppose because it’s probably similar equipment to produce.

But a steel case headed .308win case could be interesting for hot rodding if you had some reason too.