.308 Winchester

[Old Corps 8541]

Are you getting hard bolt closer with case w/o a bullet seated " Either way, Take one of your cases and fully coat it with a black Magic Marker , then chamber this case , maybe move the bolt handle up an down a few times then remove the case and hopefully you will see where the problem is

 

[Rob01]

Gentlemen I have a question, I’m running a Redding small base die and I noticed that I’m having some resistance closing the bolt (The rifle is a savage 110 tactical) that I don’t get with factory ammo. Brass is trimmed to spec and properly sized…do I need to incorporate a body die into my progressive press to bump the shoulder to make the cases chamber easier? Do I need a FL non small base die? Would that solve this problem?

Why are you running a small base die in a factory barrel? My .308s are customs and I run a standard FL Bushing die. I’d lose the small base die and get a good fl bushing die so you can control neck tension to about .002” and bump the shoulder back .001-002” max.

Do you have a tool like the Hornady Headspace gauge so you can measure your base to datum line on the fired cases and get your FL die set?

Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Ga 5 Bushing Set Comparator

The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge is a great tool for increasing the accuracy of your loaded ammunition. The Headspace gauge measures from the...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[MasonSims]

Why are you running a small base die in a factory barrel? My .308s are customs and I run a standard FL Bushing die. I’d lose the small base die and get a good fl bushing die so you can control neck tension to about .002” and bump the shoulder back .001-002” max.

Do you have a tool like the Hornady Headspace gauge so you can measure your base to datum line on the fired cases and get your FL die set?

Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Ga 5 Bushing Set Comparator

The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge is a great tool for increasing the accuracy of your loaded ammunition. The Headspace gauge measures from the...

www.midwayusa.com

I’m using a small base die because it’s all I have. I screwed up my FL die trying to get a stuck case out, then Amazon sent me the wrong die so I just rolled with it. I was and still am brand new to reloading so I just don’t know what I don’t know. There’s so many opinions out there and I’m trying to learn what’s best for different applications.

I’ll get those and a bushing die soon. For not I’ve got a Lee FL die that works. It allows my reloads to chamber at least.

 

[MasonSims]

It could be a headspace issue where you're getting more springback than you thing with some cases (especially if you're not annealing). Take measurements of everything (like at the diameter at the .200 line above the base; the diameter just below the shoulder/body junction, the cases headspace measurements) on your fired cases and your sized cases to see what's really going on. Then report back with the numbers.

Will do tomorrow morning.

 

[Rob01]

Ok that explains it. Using what you have is something we have all done. The Small Base should work and if the brass is not chambering then there is something going on with the size after it goes through the die and the brass isn’t properly sized. You really should know how much you are bumping the shoulder as if it’s being oversized then it can lead to premature case head separations. Not enough and you get what I think you are getting now. That simple tool will really help.

 

[357Max]

Ok that explains it. Using what you have is something we have all done. The Small Base should work and if the brass is not chambering then there is something going on with the size after it goes through the die and the brass isn’t properly sized. You really should know how much you are bumping the shoulder as if it’s being oversized then it can lead to premature case head separations. Not enough and you get what I think you are getting now. That simple tool will really help.

Yeah I'd bet the small base is pushing the shoulder forward past what it was fired since the small base is moving more metal.

The HS comparator is really a must have.

 

[Snuby642]

I’m using a small base die because it’s all I have. I screwed up my FL die trying to get a stuck case out, then Amazon sent me the wrong die so I just rolled with it. I was and still am brand new to reloading so I just don’t know what I don’t know. There’s so many opinions out there and I’m trying to learn what’s best for different applications.

I’ll get those and a bushing die soon. For not I’ve got a Lee FL die that works. It allows my reloads to chamber at least.

Yes +1 on what rob01 said.

I recommend keeping the lee die for now, it is not holding you back.

I use Lee fls dies in 308 and 223 and can get sub 1/2 moa loads in both.

Without a comparitor you are driving while blind. You can go old school and bump back till bolt drops but I will leave that for someone else to explain.

I like numbers I can enter into my reloading book I keep so I use the comparitor.

I take the expander out of my Lee dies and measure it. It will normally be two thousand under bullet diameter. I put it in a drill and polish it with 800 grit cloth till it is slick and .004 under bullet diameter.

It runs smoothly, puts less stress on brass while sizing. I then run it through a Sinclair mandrell for the consistant 0.002 neck tension.

It is about 35$ for the die and a pin and extra pins for other calibers are about 6$ .

A Lee fls die, a Sinclair mandrell and the Hornady comparitor will get your brass right.

The only other major tools I use are a bullet (ogive) comparitor for bto measurements and a digital scale at least +/- 0.1gr resolution.

The ogive comparitor will keep you out of trouble when changing bullets since you can't rely on the cartridge over all lenght.
(308 going from 168 smk to 169 smk was a good example, they moved the ogive forward 0.040)

Not trying to spend your money on fancy things, just the basics .

 

[JR1200W3]

You can use your chamber as a chamber gauge by removing the firing pin assembly from the bolt body. If you have a spring loaded ejector remove that too. Insert your bolt body back into the gun. Insert a piece of brass into the chamber and push the bolt forward to close it. You should probably feel some resistance on a freshly fired empty case. Make sure you pop the primer out. Back the sizing die out two or so turns and then resize the case. Keep inserting the case into the chamber and close the bolt. You are looking for the bolt to close with no resistance. Screw the die in a quarter of a turn at a time and resize the brass; checking it in the chamber. Keep doing that until the bolt closes without resistance. When it does, get a new piece of brass, back the die out a quarter turn, and then repeat with something like 1/10 of a turn at a time; fine tune the die setting. When you just get to no resistance that is your die setting.

Still not the best way to do it, but it is feasible. You won't know how many thou you're bumping the shoulders. You really want to keep your shoulder bump to 2 - 3 thou to prevent case head separation.

It would be much easier to just buy the Hornady comparator.

 

[45-90]

I’m using a small base die because it’s all I have. I screwed up my FL die trying to get a stuck case out, then Amazon sent me the wrong die so I just rolled with it. I was and still am brand new to reloading so I just don’t know what I don’t know. There’s so many opinions out there and I’m trying to learn what’s best for different applications.

I’ll get those and a bushing die soon. For not I’ve got a Lee FL die that works. It allows my reloads to chamber at least.

Dies are made to slightly different dimensions. Just grind .002" to .004" off the bottom of the FL die or machine it off with a carbide tool on the lathe. It will then allow easy chambering of the cartridge. I modify & make many dies for forming wildcat cartridges and using existing brass to make other unavailable brass.

 

[MasonSims]

Thanks to everyone! I’ve gotten several different 308 loads done for now. I just dropped a lot of money on a thermal, but after I get my savings to a good spot I’ll get the comparator. (I understand it’s cheap but I made a deal with my wife, so purchases are done for now. Lol)

 

[Jerrydaniels]

Lapua 155gr
50.2 gr. N 550
2995 fps
Cz 557
25" barrel
Muzzle brake
Vortex 6x24 dimondback tactical.

 

[Snuby642]

Jerry nice list of goods.

But it kind of leaves us hanging like a date with a high school goody two shoes.

 

[AKGuide]

47.7F, 84%H, 29.44inHg

Savage 110 Ultralite 22” 1:10” Proof Carbon with 7.5” suppressor.

Virgin Lapua SR primer brass, Rem 7 1/2, Win StaBALL Match @ 46.6, 168 TMK @ 2.900” OAL, 2.185” CBTO 0.035” jump, 2717avg; 1/2moa

The photo was a primer test today 02NOV2023 38.3F, 99%H, 29.41inHg

I also bumped charges to 47.0. Left was Murom KVB-223, middle CCI-450, right Rem 7 1/2. The far right shot was a fouler after cleaning the bore. I may have to make more using the Russian primers to see if they can continue to print smaller groups.

 

[BCP]

Loading some 168 midway seconds win brass varget 2.80 nominal:

1=42gr
2=Control load
3=42.5gr
4=42.8gr

This was with my SSG3000 and 10X optic at 115yards lasered

 

[Dave62677]

Tested some Midway factory 2nd 169smk. It turns out surprisingly good. 15rds SD of 8. Group about 0.44moa

Fgm brass /imr 4895 41.8gr
Avg 2720 fps (28”bbl)

 

[Jerrydaniels]

Lapua 155gr
50.2 gr. N 550
2995 fps
Cz 557
25" barrel
Muzzle brake
Vortex 6x24 dimondback tactical.

Well ,I have them loaded started 10% low and worked up to full charge of vv 550 .
My CZ likes the 146 gr. M 80 pulls one hole at 100 yards 5 shot group. That surprised me,because I was using them just to sight in. Then I switched to 168gr v-max and 42 gr.3031 and got a 1 inch group. Have not had it out since.

 

[morning would]

Going back out for some confirmations this morning, but here are some results with my Savage 110 Elite Precision that I chopped to 18” and run exclusively with a YHM Resonator K. These are the 2 that shot the best for me out of 8 different loads I tested. Loaded 20 of each to see how they do. Also just for shits and grins I loaded 5 rounds of the N540 load at 41.8 to see if it holds together. Since 41.2 didn’t shoot too hot, 41.5 may be the start of the node or an anomaly. Really grown to love N540. It is super versatile and usually has pretty tiny SD’s. It has worked in every caliber I have tried it in but really seems to shine in 223, 308, and 6.5x47.

All Lapua 1x fired with a 210 primer and a 175RDF at 2.288BTO

Varget 43.5
Average 2595
ES 15.2
SD 6.5
Shot a .141 but only a 3 shot group

N540 41.5
Average 2512
ES 7.3
SD 3.3
Shot a .207 but only a 3 shot group

 

[Snuby642]

Loading some 168 midway seconds win brass varget 2.80 nominal:

1=42gr
2=Control load
3=42.5gr
4=42.8gr

This was with my SSG3000 and 10X optic at 115yards lasered

View attachment 8264064View attachment 8264065

Let me guess controll was fgmm ?

#4 looks promising.

According to Hodgdon you have room for more powder if running SMK's.

My son has the 308 and current data card out at the ranch and forgot to update computer.

Ranch has a major gas leak on the property line so can't get data card right now.

I tried with several powders and only thing I could get to run with that combo was Varget. I hear there are others but not touching anything that has 3/8 moa groups.

 

[RedKnight]

I really thought I wouldn't need to bother anybody with help, trying to do my homework... But I'm a little lost. I was following along a set of instructions I saw Erik Cortina post on another forum. But I'm having trouble extrapolating much from my target. Is there an obvious starting point?

I thought 44.5 looked good, but the ES/SD were higher than other groups. I shot off a lead sled and didn't feel like any shot was pulled, pretty confident. Lasered at 100yrds.

Tikka T3X CTR 20"
178gr ELD-M
IMR 4064
Alpha Brass SRP
CCI 450's
CBTO: 2.233"

The three numbers are:
Average Velocity
Extreme Spread
Standard Deviation

 

[JR1200W3]

I really thought I wouldn't need to bother anybody with help, trying to do my homework... But I'm a little lost. I was following along a set of instructions I saw Erik Cortina post on another forum. But I'm having trouble extrapolating much from my target. Is there an obvious starting point?

I thought 44.5 looked good, but the ES/SD were higher than other groups. I shot off a lead sled and didn't feel like any shot was pulled, pretty confident. Lasered at 100yrds.

Tikka T3X CTR 20"
178gr ELD-M
IMR 4064
Alpha Brass SRP
CCI 450's
CBTO: 2.233"

The three numbers are:
Average Velocity
Extreme Spread
Standard Deviation
View attachment 8265422

I wouldn't worry about SDs just yet. Especially with 3 rd groups. If it were me, I'd get off the lead sled and do my load development in the prone off a bipod and rear bag. I'd shoot 5rd groups. I would shoot a ladder, like you did there, and look for pressure and any particularly ugly groups to see if there's charge weights that ARE NOT tunable by seating depth. I would pick a charge that looks decent and is a grain or so under pressure signs and then I'd run a seating depth test. I'd also shoot 155's or the Sierra 169's in a 20" barrel. Same BC as the 178's but better velocity. Also produces better groups than the Hornady .30's I've shot.

 

[Snuby642]

I agree with @Rimfire Jesus mostly.

I have a lead sled laying around somewhere not been used in 15 years or more.

IMHO they will not have the same impact point or produce the same groups as your shoulder.
A pair of heavy bags are also a good alternative.

His advice to dump the Hornady bullets is also sound and I have found they are hard to get running well.
Quality bullets will group with less hassle and be more consistant.

Sierra 168g or 169g are both easy to get running, well worth the price difference. Just be aware the ogive on the two of those are different lengths from base and tip.

I have improved my load development by using Eric Cortina's methods and agree with his premise that if 2 shots don't group 5 certainly won't.

In fact the only reason I use 3 with initial ladder tests is to see the shape of the 3 shots to help eliminate stringing.

 

[BCP]

The control in my groups was another handload I developed awhile ago with 175smk.

Lead sled is great for accuracy testing but not necessary.

My pic was harris bipod and squeeze bag off a folding table.

 

[Snuby642]

Sorry for any confusion.
My last post was directed at red knight.

 

[RedKnight]

I agree with @Rimfire Jesus mostly.

I have a lead sled laying around somewhere not been used in 15 years or more.

IMHO they will not have the same impact point or produce the same groups as your shoulder.
A pair of heavy bags are also a good alternative.

His advice to dump the Hornady bullets is also sound and I have found they are hard to get running well.
Quality bullets will group with less hassle and be more consistant.

Sierra 168g or 169g are both easy to get running, well worth the price difference. Just be aware the ogive on the two of those are different lengths from base and tip.

I have improved my load development by using Eric Cortina's methods and agree with his premise that if 2 shots don't group 5 certainly won't.

In fact the only reason I use 3 with initial ladder tests is to see the shape of the 3 shots to help eliminate stringing.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I actually haven't had any trouble with ELD's... I was shooting LRP Alpha Brass with them, but it's too damn hard to find those primers, so I was working up a round with SRPs. My last round was 41.5gr 4064, LRP Alpha Brass, and the 178 ELD-M, shot less than half MOA, .384" group at 200 was it's best, but they were generally quarter MOA (Bipod and rear bags). I hadn't tried beyond 300 yards yet.

So I have about 800 ELD-M sitting on my shelf. To be fair, when I had been looking to buy relaxing supplies, the matchkings were impossible to find, so I never gave them a go.

 

[TicTacTex]

Reloading Equipment - 308 Brass For Sale

This is all 1x fired 308 brass out of various rifle systems and will be noted by each photo. Price includes shipping to the lower 48. I accept PayPal “gift” or personal check. Funds clear and I ship. Thanks for looking. 200 count Federal Gold Medal Match Lot #621A289 out of Accuracy...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Rob01]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I actually haven't had any trouble with ELD's... I was shooting LRP Alpha Brass with them, but it's too damn hard to find those primers, so I was working up a round with SRPs. My last round was 41.5gr 4064, LRP Alpha Brass, and the 178 ELD-M, shot less than half MOA, .384" group at 200 was it's best, but they were generally quarter MOA (Bipod and rear bags). I hadn't tried beyond 300 yards yet.

So I have about 800 ELD-M sitting on my shelf. To be fair, when I had been looking to buy relaxing supplies, the matchkings were impossible to find, so I never gave them a go.

Never had any problems with ELDs in any caliber either. The 168 ELDs I loaded for my .308 were easy to get a load for and get an accurate load. They have almost the same BC as the Sierra 169. The 178 ELD-M has a better BC than the 169 SMK also.

 

[JR1200W3]

The 178 ELD-M has a better BC than the 169 SMK also.

Barely. For all intent and purposes it is basically the same. If a person factors in the additional velocity you'll get out of a 169 grain bullet the 178 with its .020 BC increase will fall behind.

 

[Rob01]

Barely. For all intent and purposes it is basically the same. If a person factors in the additional velocity you'll get out of a 169 grain bullet the 178 with its .020 BC increase will fall behind.

You won't be gaining a ton of velocity between those two especially in a 20" barrel but if worried about velocity then use a 168 ELD with a .524 BC instead of the 178.

 

[JR1200W3]

I picked up 175 feet per second going from 178s to Sierra 169s. Granted part of that is because the ELDMs would only shoot halfway decent at a slower velocity. Generally, when shooting short-barreled guns, the lighter bullets at a higher velocity most of the time outperform the super slow, heavy bullet combo.

 

[Rob01]

I picked up 175 feet per second going from 178s to Sierra 169s. Granted part of that is because the ELDMs would only shoot halfway decent at a slower velocity. Generally, when shooting short-barreled guns, the lighter bullets at a higher velocity most of the time outperform the super slow, heavy bullet combo.

Sounds like the biggest part as in my 20" I can get the 178s going almost as fast as the 168s.

 

[JR1200W3]

Bearing surface on a newer design Sierra vs older Hornady design?

 

[noremorse92]

Would anyone here consider 45 grains of varget too much for a 168 in a properly executed standard saami chamber? I'm having some issues with my bolt lift after 50 of this load this weekend. Peterson srp brass, 45 of varget, cci br4, 168 match, 2.8 coal l. Bolt is now difficult to lift, rough on empty chamber. Only with FP forward

 

[straightshooter1]

Would anyone here consider 45 grains of varget too much for a 168 in a properly executed standard saami chamber? I'm having some issues with my bolt lift after 50 of this load this weekend. Peterson srp brass, 45 of varget, cci br4, 168 match, 2.8 coal l. Bolt is now difficult to lift, rough on empty chamber. Only with FP forward

What do you think when looking at this (note the psi pressures and temperature):

 

[Kevins750]

Would anyone here consider 45 grains of varget too much for a 168 in a properly executed standard saami chamber? I'm having some issues with my bolt lift after 50 of this load this weekend. Peterson srp brass, 45 of varget, cci br4, 168 match, 2.8 coal l. Bolt is now difficult to lift, rough on empty chamber. Only with FP forward

Your bolt lift is hard on an empty chamber?

 

[noremorse92]

Your bolt lift is hard on an empty chamber?

Yes. When cocking only though.

 

[noremorse92]

What do you think when looking at this (note the psi pressures and temperature):

View attachment 8266205

It was about 50 degrees out
I havent got quickload so thank you
Perhaps a little warm then.

Hodgedon lists 46gr as a safe max. Brass has no signs of pressure. Tikka action. And now the bolt is super hard to open. Both of my bolts. With the barrel off too

 

[straightshooter1]

It was about 50 degrees out
I havent got quickload so thank you
Perhaps a little warm then.

Hodgedon lists 46gr as a safe max. Brass has no signs of pressure. Tikka action. And now the bolt is super hard to open. Both of my bolts. With the barrel off too

If you go with a longer seating (like a COAL of 2.866 that I've used in my Krieger barrel for my RPR) that would reduce pressure and help alleviate that stiff bolt lift. Of course, that'd depend on how much freebore you've got to work with.

 

[Snuby642]

So all you guys running the 178 eldm's I guess are not limmited by magazine length dimensions and short chambers.

Some spr / tactical rifles were forged around fgmm 168's.
Driven by departmental specifications.

I suppose there are many rifles out there with those specs still in departments being used.

 

[JR1200W3]

now the bolt is super hard to open. Both of my bolts. With the barrel off too

Might want to look at dissembling your bolt, cleaning out the bolt body, greasing cocking piece. If you can remove the barrel you can clean the lug abutments and grease them as well. If you were popping primers you might have some pieces of primers in your bolt body.

 

[Rob01]

So all you guys running the 178 eldm's I guess are not limmited by magazine length dimensions and short chambers.

Some spr / tactical rifles were forged around fgmm 168's.
Driven by departmental specifications.

I suppose there are many rifles out there with those specs still in departments being used.

Departments aren't handloading ammo. The factory loaded 178s will fit in those rifle.

 

[Rob01]

It was about 50 degrees out
I havent got quickload so thank you
Perhaps a little warm then.

Hodgedon lists 46gr as a safe max. Brass has no signs of pressure. Tikka action. And now the bolt is super hard to open. Both of my bolts. With the barrel off too

The difference is Hodgdon is using Winchester brass which has a larger internal capacity. You need to adjust accordingly when changing from anything on the Hodgdon site. I used to use 45grns with Winchester brass and 178 AMAX/175SMK/178 BTHP but when going to Hornady brass I am at 44grns.

 

[BCP]

Would anyone here consider 45 grains of varget too much for a 168 in a properly executed standard saami chamber? I'm having some issues with my bolt lift after 50 of this load this weekend. Peterson srp brass, 45 of varget, cci br4, 168 match, 2.8 coal l. Bolt is now difficult to lift, rough on empty chamber. Only with FP forward

Do you mean you have an empty chamber, cock it, dry fire it, then open the bolt? And it feels stiff?

 

[noremorse92]

Do you mean you have an empty chamber, cock it, dry fire it, then open the bolt? And it feels stiff?

I mean I have an empty chamber, uncocked, go to lift the bolt to cock it and its not just stiff it takes significant force to lift the bolt. I can hear and feel metal chattering somewhere. Once open and cocked it operates as normal. This is with my 308 and my 223 bolt body. Tikka t3x action.

 

[BCP]

So all you guys running the 178 eldm's I guess are not limmited by magazine length dimensions and short chambers.

Some spr / tactical rifles were forged around fgmm 168's.
Driven by departmental specifications.

I suppose there are many rifles out there with those specs still in departments being used.

They have a different bullet design so while it might be 2.85 to the tip the bearing surface is actually further back then a regular bullet. Loading the 169smk at 2.83 my seating die would push a reg 168 to around 2.79". Also you can load some of them to saami length, my 169smk load of 42varget was 2.82 MAX so it could run in an AR10 mag too.

 

[xsn10s]

I mean I have an empty chamber, uncocked, go to lift the bolt to cock it and its not just stiff it takes significant force to lift the bolt. I can hear and feel metal chattering somewhere. Once open and cocked it operates as normal. This is with my 308 and my 223 bolt body. Tikka t3x action.

It sounds like Tikkas can have a hard bolt lift. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/heavy-bolt-lift-rough-bolt-on-new-tikka.174725/

 

[JR1200W3]

It sounds like Tikkas can have a hard bolt lift. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/heavy-bolt-lift-rough-bolt-on-new-tikka.174725/

Not really

 

[xsn10s]

Would anyone here consider 45 grains of varget too much for a 168 in a properly executed standard saami chamber? I'm having some issues with my bolt lift after 50 of this load this weekend. Peterson srp brass, 45 of varget, cci br4, 168 match, 2.8 coal l. Bolt is now difficult to lift, rough on empty chamber. Only with FP forward

You might want to take a look at the thread I post from rokslide. There's a post on there to fix possible issues. Since you had the same problem on two tikkas with the barrel removed and only on uncocked actions I'd say you need to lube or grease the cocking cam. Post#19 on the thread.

 

[RedKnight]

So barring changing the bullet, what's my next step? I'm not above changing if I can't get the groups I want, I just have had a good experience with the ELD-M and I've got quite a few.

Do I need to repeat the tests in a different way? I chrono'd each shot if that helps avoid that.

At 44.5gr, there was a slight ejector rub on the brass.

 

[JR1200W3]

Doing a seating depth test was already suggested. But you're still asking what to do, so I guess you don't want to do that. You already shot a powder ladder. You don't want to shoot 5rd groups. You don't want to change bullets. I guess you could change powder or primers. Maybe uniform flash holes....

 

[BCP]

So barring changing the bullet, what's my next step? I'm not above changing if I can't get the groups I want, I just have had a good experience with the ELD-M and I've got quite a few.

Do I need to repeat the tests in a different way? I chrono'd each shot if that helps avoid that.

At 44.5gr, there was a slight ejector rub on the brass.

Didn't you say in one post that you got good groups with 41.5 grains? Looking at your target I want to say about 42.5-43 grains and play with seating depth.

Also you might want to try a shorter COAL rather than longer.