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Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Sure you don't mean 358 Norma Magnum? I never heard of the caliber listed.
Jerry
Sure you don't mean 358 Norma Magnum? I never heard of the caliber listed.
Jerry
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Sorry their is no 338 Norma Magnum their is a 308 and 358 but no 338 the a 308 or 358 necked to 338 would be clost to identicle to the 338 Win Mag.
Sorry but they are the facts.
Cheers Bill
Australia
Sorry their is no 338 Norma Magnum their is a 308 and 358 but no 338 the a 308 or 358 necked to 338 would be clost to identicle to the 338 Win Mag.
Sorry but they are the facts.
Cheers Bill
Australia
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
A friend of mine has a 308 Norma Mag. The smith chambered it using dimensions from a 338 WM necked dowm. He either has to fire form necked down 338 brass, or buy the Norma stuff for 3 times the price.
A friend of mine has a 308 Norma Mag. The smith chambered it using dimensions from a 338 WM necked dowm. He either has to fire form necked down 338 brass, or buy the Norma stuff for 3 times the price.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
The current Norma range of cartridges is 300 Norma mag 308 Norma mag, 338 Norma mag, 358 Norma mag and 375 Norma mag. The 300, 338 and 375 are new and based on the 416 Rigby case shortend to standard lenght.
The current Norma range of cartridges is 300 Norma mag 308 Norma mag, 338 Norma mag, 358 Norma mag and 375 Norma mag. The 300, 338 and 375 are new and based on the 416 Rigby case shortend to standard lenght.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Havn't seen any load data of the new cartridges yet. Only seen a picture in their 2008-2010 catalog. Its listed under "planned products", so it may not be out yet.
I thought it was further along, but it seems they havn't completely decided yet.
Havn't seen any load data of the new cartridges yet. Only seen a picture in their 2008-2010 catalog. Its listed under "planned products", so it may not be out yet.
I thought it was further along, but it seems they havn't completely decided yet.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
there isn't really any hard data open yet to anyone, the round is true.338 NORMA, was developed off a dakota rounds (the short 338 one I believe) its designed for the 300 weights as aposed to the lapua designed for the 250. there is a lot of testing going around from variouse places comparing it to the Lapua. will be interesting when it is publically available. I think it will be a great round.
there isn't really any hard data open yet to anyone, the round is true.338 NORMA, was developed off a dakota rounds (the short 338 one I believe) its designed for the 300 weights as aposed to the lapua designed for the 250. there is a lot of testing going around from variouse places comparing it to the Lapua. will be interesting when it is publically available. I think it will be a great round.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Here's what Norma has said about them in their catalog:
"The latest trend in big game cartridges is short, fat, belt-less magnum
cases. The new Norma Magnums will be based on the 416 Rigby but
with a longer case than most of the new American “Short Magnums”.
As a consequence, the new Norma Magnums will have higher velocities
and energy than the American competitors, but still fit normal
length actions."
Here's what Norma has said about them in their catalog:
"The latest trend in big game cartridges is short, fat, belt-less magnum
cases. The new Norma Magnums will be based on the 416 Rigby but
with a longer case than most of the new American “Short Magnums”.
As a consequence, the new Norma Magnums will have higher velocities
and energy than the American competitors, but still fit normal
length actions."
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
This round has been in the hands of some "Spec Op" guys for T & D for a while now, as a possible alternative to the 338 Lapua.
This round has been in the hands of some "Spec Op" guys for T & D for a while now, as a possible alternative to the 338 Lapua.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This round has been in the hands of some "Spec Op" guys for T & D for a while now, as a possible alternative to the 338 Lapua. </div></div>
Respectfully NO, and here is why. The original history of the 338 LM started in 1982 with Research Armament Industries in Rogers, Arkansas.They were asked by the Marines to develop a 1500M Sniper Rifle.
They initially tried the 300WM,then the 378 Weatherby case necked down to 338. It was then followed by the 416 Rigby case which is obviously a big game case. RAI employed American Brass Extrusions Lab,LTD. (BELL) to make the 416 case which was necked down and became the 338/416 or 8.58x71.That case along with a 338 FMJ bullet were ready for testing in 1985. With a Lapua B408 bullet and this case won the 1000yard Navy Rifle comp in Quantico in 1986.This obviously pleased the Marines.
The Army chose NOT to use that round and only chose the Haskins produced 50BMG rifle due to the common availability of the ammo and other "politics".
RAI had financial difficulties and became part of Iver Johnson's military sales company AMAC.All the 338/416 rifles were subcontracted for by LAPUA.With the Americans dropping out Lapua was left holding the ball. They continued development with the round.To reach the targeted velocities it was discovered the original 416 Rigby case was not stout enough and what is now know as the 338LM was produced by Lapua to handle the pressure of propelling a 16.2gram bullet 915m/s.The first lot was produced for testing in 1988 and was approved by the CIP in 1989.
Sako jumped on board to make a suitable action and then Malcom Cooper of ACCURACY INTERNATIONAL-the rest is HISTORY.
That info was paraphrased and is available in an article "Story of the Lapua Magnum-From American dream to a Finnish success story."
From what Norma seems to be doing is developing ANOTHER SHORT magnum to fit into a standard length action. FOR HUNTING PURPOSES.Why are they trying to reinvent the wheel-with many services already adopting the 338Lapua.
Not to mention Remington who had released the 338RUM,with all that hype about being the poor man's 338LM. And granted,it is a great round. But I wonder why Remington is now offering a 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This round has been in the hands of some "Spec Op" guys for T & D for a while now, as a possible alternative to the 338 Lapua. </div></div>
Respectfully NO, and here is why. The original history of the 338 LM started in 1982 with Research Armament Industries in Rogers, Arkansas.They were asked by the Marines to develop a 1500M Sniper Rifle.
They initially tried the 300WM,then the 378 Weatherby case necked down to 338. It was then followed by the 416 Rigby case which is obviously a big game case. RAI employed American Brass Extrusions Lab,LTD. (BELL) to make the 416 case which was necked down and became the 338/416 or 8.58x71.That case along with a 338 FMJ bullet were ready for testing in 1985. With a Lapua B408 bullet and this case won the 1000yard Navy Rifle comp in Quantico in 1986.This obviously pleased the Marines.
The Army chose NOT to use that round and only chose the Haskins produced 50BMG rifle due to the common availability of the ammo and other "politics".
RAI had financial difficulties and became part of Iver Johnson's military sales company AMAC.All the 338/416 rifles were subcontracted for by LAPUA.With the Americans dropping out Lapua was left holding the ball. They continued development with the round.To reach the targeted velocities it was discovered the original 416 Rigby case was not stout enough and what is now know as the 338LM was produced by Lapua to handle the pressure of propelling a 16.2gram bullet 915m/s.The first lot was produced for testing in 1988 and was approved by the CIP in 1989.
Sako jumped on board to make a suitable action and then Malcom Cooper of ACCURACY INTERNATIONAL-the rest is HISTORY.
That info was paraphrased and is available in an article "Story of the Lapua Magnum-From American dream to a Finnish success story."
From what Norma seems to be doing is developing ANOTHER SHORT magnum to fit into a standard length action. FOR HUNTING PURPOSES.Why are they trying to reinvent the wheel-with many services already adopting the 338Lapua.
Not to mention Remington who had released the 338RUM,with all that hype about being the poor man's 338LM. And granted,it is a great round. But I wonder why Remington is now offering a 338LM?
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
I'm glad everyone knows the facts here.
LRS50bmg IS CORRECT in what he said. And I'm going to say again that the .338 Norma has been and is being tested for a side-by-side test to the .338 Lapua. Those here who know the .338 LM most likely don't need a history lesson on it. We are talking about performance, and what is going on with the .338 Norma
I'm glad everyone knows the facts here.
LRS50bmg IS CORRECT in what he said. And I'm going to say again that the .338 Norma has been and is being tested for a side-by-side test to the .338 Lapua. Those here who know the .338 LM most likely don't need a history lesson on it. We are talking about performance, and what is going on with the .338 Norma
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. The new fatter cases are more efficient. The 50” is king but so twice as heavy and you cant carry as much ammo. It’s a wonder it took this long for someone to come up with a round that would fit it a standard long action and push a 300 MK 2700 to 2900.
The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. The new fatter cases are more efficient. The 50” is king but so twice as heavy and you cant carry as much ammo. It’s a wonder it took this long for someone to come up with a round that would fit it a standard long action and push a 300 MK 2700 to 2900.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: needanewtoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. </div></div>
Well why I generally only reply to something I have directly dealt with but this case I will make an exception and use information from someone else, but only because I know from research and talking with them they are correct, so here goes:
1. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 300s fly better? Because I know people that are doing 2K with 250 scenars from TRG42. I would venture to say they dont need to change anything with their system to include rifle and AMMO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: needanewtoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The 50” is king</div></div>
OK now we back to my direct knowledge lol. Can you please advise in what way(s) the 50 is king and what it is king over?
Thanks
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: needanewtoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. </div></div>
Well why I generally only reply to something I have directly dealt with but this case I will make an exception and use information from someone else, but only because I know from research and talking with them they are correct, so here goes:
1. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 300s fly better? Because I know people that are doing 2K with 250 scenars from TRG42. I would venture to say they dont need to change anything with their system to include rifle and AMMO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: needanewtoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The 50” is king</div></div>
OK now we back to my direct knowledge lol. Can you please advise in what way(s) the 50 is king and what it is king over?
Thanks
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The latest trend in big game cartridges is short, fat, belt-less magnum cases. The new Norma Magnums will be based on the 416 Rigby but with a longer case than most of the new American “Short Magnums”. As a consequence, the new Norma Magnums will have higher velocities and energy than the American competitors, but still fit normal length actions."</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. The new fatter cases are more efficient.</div></div>
So... if the 338 Norma has the same case head size as the 338 Lapua (both based on .416 Rigby and no indication of a rebated rim like 6.5-284), but the 338 Norma is a shorter case, 338LM has more powder capacity and will give more velocity given the same pressure limits.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The latest trend in big game cartridges is short, fat, belt-less magnum cases. The new Norma Magnums will be based on the 416 Rigby but with a longer case than most of the new American “Short Magnums”. As a consequence, the new Norma Magnums will have higher velocities and energy than the American competitors, but still fit normal length actions."</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The .338 Norma Mag is going to tuff to beat. The 300’s fly better than 250’s and deliver more energy. The new fatter cases are more efficient.</div></div>
So... if the 338 Norma has the same case head size as the 338 Lapua (both based on .416 Rigby and no indication of a rebated rim like 6.5-284), but the 338 Norma is a shorter case, 338LM has more powder capacity and will give more velocity given the same pressure limits.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
NH-
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the obvious here Zak - the shorter case will be stiffer, producing better bullet-to-bore alignment, therefore allowing the heavier 300 grain bullets to fly straighter - and of course faster in the process.
It ain't all about case capacity you know.</div></div>
I don't believe most of that-- or don't believe that those factors are observable in 1/4 - 1/2 MOA rifles or in field conditions. Benchrest: maybe, I don't know. There's no getting around that for the same pressure limits, less case capacity will mean less velocity. Often arguments I see about short/fat case "efficiency" boil down to someone willing to give up ballistic performance for some other factor: recoil, magazine capacity, working in a certain platform, etc.
-z
NH-
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the obvious here Zak - the shorter case will be stiffer, producing better bullet-to-bore alignment, therefore allowing the heavier 300 grain bullets to fly straighter - and of course faster in the process.
It ain't all about case capacity you know.</div></div>
I don't believe most of that-- or don't believe that those factors are observable in 1/4 - 1/2 MOA rifles or in field conditions. Benchrest: maybe, I don't know. There's no getting around that for the same pressure limits, less case capacity will mean less velocity. Often arguments I see about short/fat case "efficiency" boil down to someone willing to give up ballistic performance for some other factor: recoil, magazine capacity, working in a certain platform, etc.
-z
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
+1 Zak, that was the basis for my post. Knowing the 338LM history and the fact that to drive the designed projectile at the designated speed desired it took MORE case capacity and with the increased case capacity resulted in the beefier case web to handle the pressure. Pmax is 68.2Kpsi IIRC.
And your point is well taken,without a rebated case head the diameter of the case is the same and regardless of the neck angle case capacity won't be as great. Not to mention, in a properly chambered rifle where does "case stiffness" enter the equation?
+1 Zak, that was the basis for my post. Knowing the 338LM history and the fact that to drive the designed projectile at the designated speed desired it took MORE case capacity and with the increased case capacity resulted in the beefier case web to handle the pressure. Pmax is 68.2Kpsi IIRC.
And your point is well taken,without a rebated case head the diameter of the case is the same and regardless of the neck angle case capacity won't be as great. Not to mention, in a properly chambered rifle where does "case stiffness" enter the equation?
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
This sounds like another re-invention of the wheel. This cartrige is the 7,62 UKM, developed by Michael Uekötter. It was CIP-approved in <span style="font-weight: bold">2002</span>, so this isn't even a wildcat. The group was shot by myself years ago, so no hearsay.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 20pt">EDIT: To make this clear once more, the cartrige pictured is NOT the .338 Norma, it is a different round that, based on descriptions, seemed reasonably similar to the .30cal version of the new line of Norma cartriges to mention it here.</span></span>
The one in the middle is a .338 Lapua for comparison.
This sounds like another re-invention of the wheel. This cartrige is the 7,62 UKM, developed by Michael Uekötter. It was CIP-approved in <span style="font-weight: bold">2002</span>, so this isn't even a wildcat. The group was shot by myself years ago, so no hearsay.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 20pt">EDIT: To make this clear once more, the cartrige pictured is NOT the .338 Norma, it is a different round that, based on descriptions, seemed reasonably similar to the .30cal version of the new line of Norma cartriges to mention it here.</span></span>
The one in the middle is a .338 Lapua for comparison.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
The 1000 yard benchrest crowd has had this case and round to play with since the early 90:s, just like the writer above has stated.
The whole goal of the round was to shoot the 300 grain bullets, longer and faster and more efficient than before.
I think it´s a good thing Norma has decided to go in to this project and give us nice brass to play with.
Best regards Chris
The 1000 yard benchrest crowd has had this case and round to play with since the early 90:s, just like the writer above has stated.
The whole goal of the round was to shoot the 300 grain bullets, longer and faster and more efficient than before.
I think it´s a good thing Norma has decided to go in to this project and give us nice brass to play with.
Best regards Chris
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
All that is great info. But inquiring minds want NUMBERS. How fast can you get the 300SMK going and with what load specifics.
The case appears to be around 20% or so LESS in capacity. Since all you guys KNOW,please by all means give us a description. Case specifics,what actions,barrels and real world results.
Just by looking at the photo-please explain how you can get BETTER performance with so much LESS case volume.
I know Europeans think Americans are STILL way behind on the metric system but 7.62 UKM CIP certified and not a wildcat yet shooting a 8.58mm projectile.Or are we talking about a 300grain THIRTY CALIBER PROJECTILE?
I've been chided for giving a "history lesson"-by all means PLEASE give ME one. Because a GOOGLE search calls the 7.62 UKM a "GERMAN 300 MAGNUM WILDCAT EXTRAORDINARY".And I thought the whole subject is about a 338 Norma Magnum-a round that is allegedly considered as a viable alternative to the 338LM.BUT A ROUND OF .338 caliber.
And IF by chance you guys ARE talking about a 30 caliber round-WHY even bother commenting? After all David,isn't YOUR signature stating:The key to making useful contributions to a discussion board is knowing when to shut up?
All that is great info. But inquiring minds want NUMBERS. How fast can you get the 300SMK going and with what load specifics.
The case appears to be around 20% or so LESS in capacity. Since all you guys KNOW,please by all means give us a description. Case specifics,what actions,barrels and real world results.
Just by looking at the photo-please explain how you can get BETTER performance with so much LESS case volume.
I know Europeans think Americans are STILL way behind on the metric system but 7.62 UKM CIP certified and not a wildcat yet shooting a 8.58mm projectile.Or are we talking about a 300grain THIRTY CALIBER PROJECTILE?
I've been chided for giving a "history lesson"-by all means PLEASE give ME one. Because a GOOGLE search calls the 7.62 UKM a "GERMAN 300 MAGNUM WILDCAT EXTRAORDINARY".And I thought the whole subject is about a 338 Norma Magnum-a round that is allegedly considered as a viable alternative to the 338LM.BUT A ROUND OF .338 caliber.
And IF by chance you guys ARE talking about a 30 caliber round-WHY even bother commenting? After all David,isn't YOUR signature stating:The key to making useful contributions to a discussion board is knowing when to shut up?
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
I know just a little about the .338 Norma.
Same case head size and overall loaded length as .338LM. Since the case is shorter you can seat the 300 grain bullet out of the powder column. Maybe that effectively provides the same case capacity with the 300 grain bullet. I don't honestly know.
As per numbers on performance can't help.
When I recently built a .338 I went Lapua because it is readily available and I don't have the patience to chase a ghost around. Taking the big blaster out prairie doggin this weekend, wish me luck.
I know just a little about the .338 Norma.
Same case head size and overall loaded length as .338LM. Since the case is shorter you can seat the 300 grain bullet out of the powder column. Maybe that effectively provides the same case capacity with the 300 grain bullet. I don't honestly know.
As per numbers on performance can't help.
When I recently built a .338 I went Lapua because it is readily available and I don't have the patience to chase a ghost around. Taking the big blaster out prairie doggin this weekend, wish me luck.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And IF by chance you guys ARE talking about a 30 caliber round-WHY even bother commenting? After all David,isn't YOUR signature stating:The key to making useful contributions to a discussion board is knowing when to shut up? </div></div>
Lt. Arclight,
seems like I have not made myself clear enough. The cartrige pictured above is called the <span style="font-weight: bold">7,62 UKM</span>, it is a .30 cal. round based on a shortened .338 Lapua case, and, as far as I know, has <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">nothing to to with the .338 Norma</span></span> apart from using the same shortend parent case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cardinal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 300, 338 and 375 are new and based on the 416 Rigby case shortend to standard lenght. </div></div>
It was said that Norma was planning a line of "new" short mag cartriges, I just wanted to point out is that there already is a very similar cartrige.
Again, I have no information about the .338 Norma supposedly being developed. I'd also be interested in learning how you would achieve better performance with <span style="font-style: italic">heavier</span> bullets using a case with <span style="font-style: italic">less capacity</span>.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And IF by chance you guys ARE talking about a 30 caliber round-WHY even bother commenting? After all David,isn't YOUR signature stating:The key to making useful contributions to a discussion board is knowing when to shut up? </div></div>
Lt. Arclight,
seems like I have not made myself clear enough. The cartrige pictured above is called the <span style="font-weight: bold">7,62 UKM</span>, it is a .30 cal. round based on a shortened .338 Lapua case, and, as far as I know, has <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">nothing to to with the .338 Norma</span></span> apart from using the same shortend parent case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cardinal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 300, 338 and 375 are new and based on the 416 Rigby case shortend to standard lenght. </div></div>
It was said that Norma was planning a line of "new" short mag cartriges, I just wanted to point out is that there already is a very similar cartrige.
Again, I have no information about the .338 Norma supposedly being developed. I'd also be interested in learning how you would achieve better performance with <span style="font-style: italic">heavier</span> bullets using a case with <span style="font-style: italic">less capacity</span>.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Exactly my point. Claims of other posters of a short magnum case fitting a standard long action in 338 caliber with the capability of higher velocities than the 338LM with substantial reduction of case volume-at least to me isn't physically possible.
This thread is about the 338 NORMA MAGNUM and its performance.I KNOW the 338LM and its capabilities.So far all the other statements are hyperbole at best.MY interest is long range tactical rifle shooting. The ability to shoot little bughole groups at fixed distances,although a difficult and technological discipline doesn't interest me. The thread progressed from an unknown entity to alleged knowledge. I want to see results.
Exactly my point. Claims of other posters of a short magnum case fitting a standard long action in 338 caliber with the capability of higher velocities than the 338LM with substantial reduction of case volume-at least to me isn't physically possible.
This thread is about the 338 NORMA MAGNUM and its performance.I KNOW the 338LM and its capabilities.So far all the other statements are hyperbole at best.MY interest is long range tactical rifle shooting. The ability to shoot little bughole groups at fixed distances,although a difficult and technological discipline doesn't interest me. The thread progressed from an unknown entity to alleged knowledge. I want to see results.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Speculating here on the "why do it" question.......I suspect RUAG who own Norma are trying to offer a .338 option which would not require the significant cost to many Military Units of buying new .338LM rifles by giving them the chance to upgrade a .308 rifle with new bolt and barrel?
With the U.K. going for a .338LM upgrade RUAG probably are looking to offer some form of competition in the HUGE military ammunition market to Lapua and sell their solution on the idea that AI AW's can have the bolt head changed and barrel changed and still give creditable performance at long range?
This solution will appeal to the accountants and will not have the same capability as a .338 LM.......BUT if the hype is right it may be considered as an alternative.
I am sure AI might be a little upset at the potential loss of sales.....half the problem with AI is that they seemingly make their rifles too well and hardly get repeat custom due to worn out rifles.
They might well however come out strong on this advising that there are safety concerns with this conversion......and if shooting in severely hot conditions.....this round could well be a case which is an ideal candidate for having primer blowing/extraction problems.
Trying to obtain 300g bullet performance from a smaller fatter case similar to that of the 338LM looks likely to create this.
Speculating here on the "why do it" question.......I suspect RUAG who own Norma are trying to offer a .338 option which would not require the significant cost to many Military Units of buying new .338LM rifles by giving them the chance to upgrade a .308 rifle with new bolt and barrel?
With the U.K. going for a .338LM upgrade RUAG probably are looking to offer some form of competition in the HUGE military ammunition market to Lapua and sell their solution on the idea that AI AW's can have the bolt head changed and barrel changed and still give creditable performance at long range?
This solution will appeal to the accountants and will not have the same capability as a .338 LM.......BUT if the hype is right it may be considered as an alternative.
I am sure AI might be a little upset at the potential loss of sales.....half the problem with AI is that they seemingly make their rifles too well and hardly get repeat custom due to worn out rifles.
They might well however come out strong on this advising that there are safety concerns with this conversion......and if shooting in severely hot conditions.....this round could well be a case which is an ideal candidate for having primer blowing/extraction problems.
Trying to obtain 300g bullet performance from a smaller fatter case similar to that of the 338LM looks likely to create this.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
If we <span style="font-style: italic">assume</span> the 338 Norma will have 20% less case capacity than the 338LM, here is a ballistic comparison of various calibers (338 Norma numbers calculated using QuickLoad, 65kpsi):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 1500 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > 0.00 2.69 11.34 27.04 51.08 85.05 130.33 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 0.00 2.70 11.47 27.44 52.07 87.16 134.45 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > 0.00 2.80 11.87 28.41 53.91 90.18 138.84 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > 0.00 2.79 11.86 28.46 54.16 90.95 140.66 | wind (inches)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > 0.00 2.89 12.23 29.19 55.25 91.91 140.41 | wind (inches)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > 0.00 2.99 12.68 30.41 57.84 96.79 148.80 | wind (inches)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > 0.00 3.01 12.83 30.84 58.86 98.91 152.70 | wind (inches)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > 0.00 3.11 13.32 32.27 62.10 105.36 164.12 | wind (inches)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > 0.00 3.23 13.82 33.38 63.99 107.84 166.44 | wind (inches)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > 0.00 3.80 16.47 40.41 78.74 134.20 206.92 | wind (inches)
308 155 0.508 2830 > 0.00 3.93 17.07 41.93 81.67 138.82 212.86 | wind (inches)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.44 19.33 47.82 93.43 157.46 237.23 | wind (inches)
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > -0.00 0.75 2.68 5.03 7.83 11.18 15.22 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > -0.00 0.58 2.21 4.24 6.70 9.70 13.40 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > -0.00 0.65 2.40 4.57 7.21 10.43 14.38 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > -0.00 0.57 2.19 4.21 6.70 9.76 13.56 | drop (mil)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > -0.00 0.87 3.03 5.66 8.80 12.57 17.12 | drop (mil)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > -0.00 0.72 2.62 4.99 7.88 11.42 15.78 | drop (mil)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > -0.00 0.66 2.45 4.70 7.48 10.92 15.21 | drop (mil)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > -0.00 0.55 2.15 4.23 6.84 10.17 14.44 | drop (mil)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > -0.00 0.69 2.57 4.95 7.92 11.66 16.36 | drop (mil)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > -0.00 0.67 2.56 5.06 8.35 12.70 18.39 | drop (mil)
308 155 0.508 2830 > -0.00 0.72 2.71 5.37 8.85 13.46 19.46 | drop (mil)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 0.88 3.21 6.35 10.53 16.10 23.26 | drop (mil)
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > 2715 2438 2178 1934 1707 1500 1322 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 2975 2644 2335 2050 1786 1548 1344 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > 2875 2555 2257 1981 1726 1499 1305 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > 3000 2653 2332 2035 1763 1518 1312 | velocity (fps)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > 2581 2313 2060 1824 1604 1412 1250 | velocity (fps)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > 2775 2457 2163 1890 1640 1423 1243 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > 2870 2529 2213 1922 1656 1425 1236 | velocity (fps)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > 3060 2663 2299 1967 1665 1407 1203 | velocity (fps)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > 2830 2476 2149 1851 1580 1351 1173 | velocity (fps)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > 2900 2472 2084 1735 1434 1202 1050 | velocity (fps)
308 155 0.508 2830 > 2830 2408 2026 1683 1393 1172 1033 | velocity (fps)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2235 1863 1529 1261 1080 971 | velocity (fps)
</pre></div></div>
If you opened the comparison to other cartridges with a fat head (same as 338LM), there are probably other interesting choices in 7 or 30 caliber.
If we <span style="font-style: italic">assume</span> the 338 Norma will have 20% less case capacity than the 338LM, here is a ballistic comparison of various calibers (338 Norma numbers calculated using QuickLoad, 65kpsi):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 1500 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > 0.00 2.69 11.34 27.04 51.08 85.05 130.33 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 0.00 2.70 11.47 27.44 52.07 87.16 134.45 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > 0.00 2.80 11.87 28.41 53.91 90.18 138.84 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > 0.00 2.79 11.86 28.46 54.16 90.95 140.66 | wind (inches)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > 0.00 2.89 12.23 29.19 55.25 91.91 140.41 | wind (inches)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > 0.00 2.99 12.68 30.41 57.84 96.79 148.80 | wind (inches)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > 0.00 3.01 12.83 30.84 58.86 98.91 152.70 | wind (inches)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > 0.00 3.11 13.32 32.27 62.10 105.36 164.12 | wind (inches)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > 0.00 3.23 13.82 33.38 63.99 107.84 166.44 | wind (inches)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > 0.00 3.80 16.47 40.41 78.74 134.20 206.92 | wind (inches)
308 155 0.508 2830 > 0.00 3.93 17.07 41.93 81.67 138.82 212.86 | wind (inches)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.44 19.33 47.82 93.43 157.46 237.23 | wind (inches)
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > -0.00 0.75 2.68 5.03 7.83 11.18 15.22 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > -0.00 0.58 2.21 4.24 6.70 9.70 13.40 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > -0.00 0.65 2.40 4.57 7.21 10.43 14.38 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > -0.00 0.57 2.19 4.21 6.70 9.76 13.56 | drop (mil)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > -0.00 0.87 3.03 5.66 8.80 12.57 17.12 | drop (mil)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > -0.00 0.72 2.62 4.99 7.88 11.42 15.78 | drop (mil)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > -0.00 0.66 2.45 4.70 7.48 10.92 15.21 | drop (mil)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > -0.00 0.55 2.15 4.23 6.84 10.17 14.44 | drop (mil)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > -0.00 0.69 2.57 4.95 7.92 11.66 16.36 | drop (mil)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > -0.00 0.67 2.56 5.06 8.35 12.70 18.39 | drop (mil)
308 155 0.508 2830 > -0.00 0.72 2.71 5.37 8.85 13.46 19.46 | drop (mil)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 0.88 3.21 6.35 10.53 16.10 23.26 | drop (mil)
338LM 300 0.77* 2715 > 2715 2438 2178 1934 1707 1500 1322 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 2975 2644 2335 2050 1786 1548 1344 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 0.684 2875 > 2875 2555 2257 1981 1726 1499 1305 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 0.648 3000 > 3000 2653 2332 2035 1763 1518 1312 | velocity (fps)
338N- 300 0.77* 2581 > 2581 2313 2060 1824 1604 1412 1250 | velocity (fps)
338N- 250 0.675 2775 > 2775 2457 2163 1890 1640 1423 1243 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210 0.640 2870 > 2870 2529 2213 1922 1656 1425 1236 | velocity (fps)
300WM 190VLD 0.570 3060 > 3060 2663 2299 1967 1665 1407 1203 | velocity (fps)
260R 139 0.610 2830 > 2830 2476 2149 1851 1580 1351 1173 | velocity (fps)
308 155- 0.508 2900 > 2900 2472 2084 1735 1434 1202 1050 | velocity (fps)
308 155 0.508 2830 > 2830 2408 2026 1683 1393 1172 1033 | velocity (fps)
308 175 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2235 1863 1529 1261 1080 971 | velocity (fps)
</pre></div></div>
If you opened the comparison to other cartridges with a fat head (same as 338LM), there are probably other interesting choices in 7 or 30 caliber.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
I built a gun for a friend 2 years ago that was chambered for what was called then 338 sloan short magnum.
at that time the cartridge designer was working with dakota arms on it and tring to get it manufactured through them. then when dakota had there bankrupcy problems he pulled the cartidge from dakota. Fast froward 8-10 months norma contacted him and they have been working on it for the last year on final designs. It has only been about 3 months since I received the word that the standardized reamer was being released along with factory brass.
The 338 norma mag is a little bit different than just a shortened 338lm the shoulder angle is a little different along with there is less body taper.
I now have the reamer and gauges but the factory brass is still a few months out.
I know for a FACT that my buddies gun shoots a 300gr sierra at the same velocity with no pressure signs as a 338 lapua mag. plus with about 20 grs less powder.
I built a gun for a friend 2 years ago that was chambered for what was called then 338 sloan short magnum.
at that time the cartridge designer was working with dakota arms on it and tring to get it manufactured through them. then when dakota had there bankrupcy problems he pulled the cartidge from dakota. Fast froward 8-10 months norma contacted him and they have been working on it for the last year on final designs. It has only been about 3 months since I received the word that the standardized reamer was being released along with factory brass.
The 338 norma mag is a little bit different than just a shortened 338lm the shoulder angle is a little different along with there is less body taper.
I now have the reamer and gauges but the factory brass is still a few months out.
I know for a FACT that my buddies gun shoots a 300gr sierra at the same velocity with no pressure signs as a 338 lapua mag. plus with about 20 grs less powder.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Let me help everyone understand the concept of the 338 Norma. I have
talked to the gentleman actually testing the round so I know it exists. The concept behind it has nothing to do with utilizing standard length magazines. The cartridge is based on existing 338 LM
brass only shorter with less taper in the shoulder. The reason for this is to maintain current velocity and to allow the 300 grain matchking to utilize its full potential by keeping overall cartridge length the same and not having to stuff the bullet down into the powder charge. Rechamber any 338LM rifle and you have an inherently more accurate cartridge. According to the people doing the testing it is the first sniper cartridge designed around a bullet.
Let me help everyone understand the concept of the 338 Norma. I have
talked to the gentleman actually testing the round so I know it exists. The concept behind it has nothing to do with utilizing standard length magazines. The cartridge is based on existing 338 LM
brass only shorter with less taper in the shoulder. The reason for this is to maintain current velocity and to allow the 300 grain matchking to utilize its full potential by keeping overall cartridge length the same and not having to stuff the bullet down into the powder charge. Rechamber any 338LM rifle and you have an inherently more accurate cartridge. According to the people doing the testing it is the first sniper cartridge designed around a bullet.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The reason for this is to maintain current velocity and to allow the 300 grain matchking to utilize its full potential by keeping overall cartridge length the same and not having to stuff the bullet down into the powder charge.</div></div>
One might note that the same situation is true with 6.5x47 Lapua vs. .260 Remington-- the 6.5x47 with a 139 Scenar seated to 2.80" will put the bottom of the bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction and the bottom of the bullet will be about even with the neck/body junction. This keeps the bullet from being "down in the power charge." However, the shorter case has less capacity and when loaded to the same pressure yields less velocity (reference: factory Lapua ammo specs).
While this situation is favorable in reloads to avoid the "donut" which can occur in used brass - IMO - it's missing the forest for the trees. Accuracy is not a problem with the 338LM, so giving up the primary benefits of ballistic performance at long range to solve a non-problem seems misguided.
-z
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The reason for this is to maintain current velocity and to allow the 300 grain matchking to utilize its full potential by keeping overall cartridge length the same and not having to stuff the bullet down into the powder charge.</div></div>
One might note that the same situation is true with 6.5x47 Lapua vs. .260 Remington-- the 6.5x47 with a 139 Scenar seated to 2.80" will put the bottom of the bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction and the bottom of the bullet will be about even with the neck/body junction. This keeps the bullet from being "down in the power charge." However, the shorter case has less capacity and when loaded to the same pressure yields less velocity (reference: factory Lapua ammo specs).
While this situation is favorable in reloads to avoid the "donut" which can occur in used brass - IMO - it's missing the forest for the trees. Accuracy is not a problem with the 338LM, so giving up the primary benefits of ballistic performance at long range to solve a non-problem seems misguided.
-z
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Im told that concerning velocity the wider shoulder makes up for the shorter case. I can relate completely that the 338LM does not have accuracy concerns, I have a Sako TRG-42 that was rebarreled by Jerod of Patriot Arms with a Broughton. 2" groups at 600 yards consistently. I happened to stumble on the 338 Norma by accident and that was there well kept secret on how this was going to take the sniper community by storm. Isn't human nature to try and fix things that aren't broken? Guess will have to wait and see.
Im told that concerning velocity the wider shoulder makes up for the shorter case. I can relate completely that the 338LM does not have accuracy concerns, I have a Sako TRG-42 that was rebarreled by Jerod of Patriot Arms with a Broughton. 2" groups at 600 yards consistently. I happened to stumble on the 338 Norma by accident and that was there well kept secret on how this was going to take the sniper community by storm. Isn't human nature to try and fix things that aren't broken? Guess will have to wait and see.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
At the same time, there are bullets potentially better than the 300gr SMK, too-- solids (Lehigh). They are at least 2x as expensive, but advertise BC's over 0.85
At the same time, there are bullets potentially better than the 300gr SMK, too-- solids (Lehigh). They are at least 2x as expensive, but advertise BC's over 0.85
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
I have had exceptional accuracy with the 338LM. Consistent WITTNESSED 5 shot groups at 300 yards of 1 inch.And amazing consistent results at 1000 yards. And no issues at all with ANY problems. I have 2 rifles now in 338LM with a AI-AWSM,ordered and on the way.
I do have 2 different chambers though. One is short and based on the AI magazine length. Yet even with the short coal,using Hodgdon US 869 I've exceeded my RL25 velocities with less spread. I've also had good luck using VV24N41.
Granted, the Lapua was designed to shoot the 250gr. bullet. But case volume allows alot of leeway. My experience with 50BMG and monolithic solids prove BARRELS tend to be the most important part of THAT equation- not all like the solids.
There has been attempts to change the neck (like ackley) but at what cost. My biggest question is why. If existing standard actions owned by agencies and services could be rechambered-I see the justification. But from a performance standpoint,what are "THEY" looking for with the 300SMK and what could be possible with a conventional Sniper Weapon System.
And by all means, SHOW ME how you can get the same velocity with 20gr.less powder. 2 loads give me 2775fps. through a 30" mike Rock 1/9.3Twist barrel. 87 Gr. of RL25 300SMK and 101grains of H US869.It takes 72.0 gr. of RL22 to give me 3000fps in a 300WM with a 190SMK. What powder is going to be that fast at 68 or so grains AND keep pressures below the Pmax of 68.2Kpsi.AND drive that big pill at 2700fps. Quick Load shows it is NOT possible. And please don't take my skepticism as being a "flame". I want to know FACTS as RWS states- HOW this can occur.
Well, ZAK-I guess we haven't been let in on the "double top secret probation" information. For me though-soon there will be three-sticks that is...
I have had exceptional accuracy with the 338LM. Consistent WITTNESSED 5 shot groups at 300 yards of 1 inch.And amazing consistent results at 1000 yards. And no issues at all with ANY problems. I have 2 rifles now in 338LM with a AI-AWSM,ordered and on the way.
I do have 2 different chambers though. One is short and based on the AI magazine length. Yet even with the short coal,using Hodgdon US 869 I've exceeded my RL25 velocities with less spread. I've also had good luck using VV24N41.
Granted, the Lapua was designed to shoot the 250gr. bullet. But case volume allows alot of leeway. My experience with 50BMG and monolithic solids prove BARRELS tend to be the most important part of THAT equation- not all like the solids.
There has been attempts to change the neck (like ackley) but at what cost. My biggest question is why. If existing standard actions owned by agencies and services could be rechambered-I see the justification. But from a performance standpoint,what are "THEY" looking for with the 300SMK and what could be possible with a conventional Sniper Weapon System.
And by all means, SHOW ME how you can get the same velocity with 20gr.less powder. 2 loads give me 2775fps. through a 30" mike Rock 1/9.3Twist barrel. 87 Gr. of RL25 300SMK and 101grains of H US869.It takes 72.0 gr. of RL22 to give me 3000fps in a 300WM with a 190SMK. What powder is going to be that fast at 68 or so grains AND keep pressures below the Pmax of 68.2Kpsi.AND drive that big pill at 2700fps. Quick Load shows it is NOT possible. And please don't take my skepticism as being a "flame". I want to know FACTS as RWS states- HOW this can occur.
Well, ZAK-I guess we haven't been let in on the "double top secret probation" information. For me though-soon there will be three-sticks that is...
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
All previous posts on cartridge dimensions are pure speculation. 20 grains less powder is not feasible but I will confirm brass data
today. Im unaware that there is any truth to the case being that small. If col is the same as the 338LM, than I seriously doubt there is a loss of 20 grains.
All previous posts on cartridge dimensions are pure speculation. 20 grains less powder is not feasible but I will confirm brass data
today. Im unaware that there is any truth to the case being that small. If col is the same as the 338LM, than I seriously doubt there is a loss of 20 grains.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Alcadaterminada,
20 grns less powder was in the 338 slaon short magnum. It is a little different than the current 338 norma mag in that it is basically a shortened 338 lm. the 338 norma has less body taper so it should hold a little more powder.
Alcadaterminada,
20 grns less powder was in the 338 slaon short magnum. It is a little different than the current 338 norma mag in that it is basically a shortened 338 lm. the 338 norma has less body taper so it should hold a little more powder.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
A quick couple of measurements of the reamers tells me that there is .030 less taper in the 338 norma mag.
A quick couple of measurements of the reamers tells me that there is .030 less taper in the 338 norma mag.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
FWIW case designs based on the same parent case can produce higher muzzle velocities from a case with a smaller volume.
I competed for many years in the FCSA matches using the standard BMG case in Light class, and a wildcat 50 McMurdo case in Heavy class. The McMurdo case was shortened by .375, slightly less taper, and a 30 degree shoulder.
I used the exact same 800 grain bore rider projectile, barrels configured a closely as a barrel maker can make them (in this case 6 lands/grooves, 35% land-65% groove), and both throated the same for the bore rider bullet.
Using VV 20N29 I would get 80-100 fps higher velocity out of the McMurdo case using 6-10 grains LESS powder than in the standard BMG case. I could speculate that the sharper shoulder in the McMurdo case helped the very slow powder build pressure more consistently, but it would be only that, reasonable theory, but no way to prove it. The "blast" coming out of the muzzle brake had a distinctly different character than the blast from the standard case also. I had this experience with 3 different barrels using the BMG case and 2 barrels using the McMurdo case. I recognize that this is a very small sample size and would only be considered a "case study" in research (sorry, no pun intended). There were 2 other competitors using the same combination that I was with similar results. I have no idea if this phenomenon would be seen in other cases using other powders.
I have no direct knowledge of the rationale that drove the experimentation with the 338 Norma, but I don't believe that muzzle velocity was the sole driving force. It may also never be adopted by ANY military forces, as having a new cartridge accepted and brought into inventory is an extremely long, tedious and EXPENSIVE proposition, especially in the US system.
FWIW case designs based on the same parent case can produce higher muzzle velocities from a case with a smaller volume.
I competed for many years in the FCSA matches using the standard BMG case in Light class, and a wildcat 50 McMurdo case in Heavy class. The McMurdo case was shortened by .375, slightly less taper, and a 30 degree shoulder.
I used the exact same 800 grain bore rider projectile, barrels configured a closely as a barrel maker can make them (in this case 6 lands/grooves, 35% land-65% groove), and both throated the same for the bore rider bullet.
Using VV 20N29 I would get 80-100 fps higher velocity out of the McMurdo case using 6-10 grains LESS powder than in the standard BMG case. I could speculate that the sharper shoulder in the McMurdo case helped the very slow powder build pressure more consistently, but it would be only that, reasonable theory, but no way to prove it. The "blast" coming out of the muzzle brake had a distinctly different character than the blast from the standard case also. I had this experience with 3 different barrels using the BMG case and 2 barrels using the McMurdo case. I recognize that this is a very small sample size and would only be considered a "case study" in research (sorry, no pun intended). There were 2 other competitors using the same combination that I was with similar results. I have no idea if this phenomenon would be seen in other cases using other powders.
I have no direct knowledge of the rationale that drove the experimentation with the 338 Norma, but I don't believe that muzzle velocity was the sole driving force. It may also never be adopted by ANY military forces, as having a new cartridge accepted and brought into inventory is an extremely long, tedious and EXPENSIVE proposition, especially in the US system.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
lrs50bmg,I know for a fact,from my FCSA experience that you do indeed have substantial 50BMG expertise. Mine is limited to the parent case. Using different systems and projectiles and propellants. I found that you really had to be on the cutting edge of load development to deal with VV20N29. Using external means to keep ammo at a constant high temperature etc. and of course the accuracy that you and others got exceeded my experimentation with 50BMG.
Further, frustrations with searching for 50BMG accuracy for over 15 years-REALLY got me into the 338LM and as a result,although I shoot and load for other rounds-the LAPUA is MY hobby. I have found that I have found far greater success with 1000yard performance and consistency with it than I could ever have with the 50BMG-although I never really got away from a "tactical" system into TRUE benchrest 50BMG shooting.
This thread has received substantial response,I think both out of curiosity, some with ACTUAL knowledge and unfortunately some with no substantial experience with ANY of the extreme long range rounds-or at least without-stating ACTUAL experience.And it is through sharing our ACTUAL experience-WE ALL learn more.
Reasons for the military experimentation are known only by those in the loop.To actually say this new cartridge will take the "Sniper Community" by storm, I feel is speculative at best. Not to mention this experimentation is still occuring with the Chey-Tac system and wildcats based off THAT design. We only hope our guys get the tools they need and tools that work. We know 50BMG and 338LM WORK and work well.
My only comment on your experimentation on less case volume, is to note that 6-10 grains LESS powder in a 50BMG case is less than 2% of a normal load,if I'm not mistaken. I still stand by my statement that ANY substantially less case volume-along the lines of 10-20% that has been speculated will not and can not provide the targeted velocites reached with the 338LM.
lrs50bmg,I know for a fact,from my FCSA experience that you do indeed have substantial 50BMG expertise. Mine is limited to the parent case. Using different systems and projectiles and propellants. I found that you really had to be on the cutting edge of load development to deal with VV20N29. Using external means to keep ammo at a constant high temperature etc. and of course the accuracy that you and others got exceeded my experimentation with 50BMG.
Further, frustrations with searching for 50BMG accuracy for over 15 years-REALLY got me into the 338LM and as a result,although I shoot and load for other rounds-the LAPUA is MY hobby. I have found that I have found far greater success with 1000yard performance and consistency with it than I could ever have with the 50BMG-although I never really got away from a "tactical" system into TRUE benchrest 50BMG shooting.
This thread has received substantial response,I think both out of curiosity, some with ACTUAL knowledge and unfortunately some with no substantial experience with ANY of the extreme long range rounds-or at least without-stating ACTUAL experience.And it is through sharing our ACTUAL experience-WE ALL learn more.
Reasons for the military experimentation are known only by those in the loop.To actually say this new cartridge will take the "Sniper Community" by storm, I feel is speculative at best. Not to mention this experimentation is still occuring with the Chey-Tac system and wildcats based off THAT design. We only hope our guys get the tools they need and tools that work. We know 50BMG and 338LM WORK and work well.
My only comment on your experimentation on less case volume, is to note that 6-10 grains LESS powder in a 50BMG case is less than 2% of a normal load,if I'm not mistaken. I still stand by my statement that ANY substantially less case volume-along the lines of 10-20% that has been speculated will not and can not provide the targeted velocites reached with the 338LM.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Lt.Arc,
I agree with you completely that with something with 10-20% less powder is not going to get the muzzle velocity of the 338LM. It may not be as great a loss if the case efficiency is better, but still less. I wasn't trying to make suggest that the .338 Norma would, only point out that sometimes case capacity in and of itself is not the only factor on muzzle velocity. You are absolutely correct that the percentage difference in my example is much smaller. I ran 250 grains in the BMG case, and 242 grains in the McMurdo case. This equates to only about 3.3% difference. The 338LM has had years of development behind it now, and is an excellent round. I have only been playing with it for the past 2 years or so, so my experience with it is much more limited. Also recently had a .375/.408 built, and haven't even had time to pull the trigger on it yet.
Lt.Arc,
I agree with you completely that with something with 10-20% less powder is not going to get the muzzle velocity of the 338LM. It may not be as great a loss if the case efficiency is better, but still less. I wasn't trying to make suggest that the .338 Norma would, only point out that sometimes case capacity in and of itself is not the only factor on muzzle velocity. You are absolutely correct that the percentage difference in my example is much smaller. I ran 250 grains in the BMG case, and 242 grains in the McMurdo case. This equates to only about 3.3% difference. The 338LM has had years of development behind it now, and is an excellent round. I have only been playing with it for the past 2 years or so, so my experience with it is much more limited. Also recently had a .375/.408 built, and haven't even had time to pull the trigger on it yet.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
hahahahahahahahahah!!!!
Guys and Gals,
Don't get your feathers all ruffled over this cartridge!! Here's some answers, though I can't divulge too much. Bottom line: The owner wants to let this cartridge speak for itself. He's told me about it, I needed to "see it". I saw it.
-Yes, there's a .338 Norma Magnum
-Yes, I've shot it.
-Yes, given a .338 Lap Mag @ 3.6 OAL vs a .338 Norma Mag @ 3.6 OAL, with a 300 gr SMK, VERY similar case capacity.
-Yes, absolutely wonderful velocties.
-Yes, pressure is same-same as Lap Mag.
-Yes, accuracy is REALLY outstanding. The chamber is a wonder of nature.
-No, there's no canister powder out there yet to really make it shine.
-Yes, there's canister powder out there that's basically acceptable.
-Yes, reamers are available from Kiff.
-Yes, cases are available from BHSS.
-Yes, the cartride will be out there soon. It's a great concept.
-Yes, I have proof in all regards.
-Yes, that's all I can say.
Powdermonkey
hahahahahahahahahah!!!!
Guys and Gals,
Don't get your feathers all ruffled over this cartridge!! Here's some answers, though I can't divulge too much. Bottom line: The owner wants to let this cartridge speak for itself. He's told me about it, I needed to "see it". I saw it.
-Yes, there's a .338 Norma Magnum
-Yes, I've shot it.
-Yes, given a .338 Lap Mag @ 3.6 OAL vs a .338 Norma Mag @ 3.6 OAL, with a 300 gr SMK, VERY similar case capacity.
-Yes, absolutely wonderful velocties.
-Yes, pressure is same-same as Lap Mag.
-Yes, accuracy is REALLY outstanding. The chamber is a wonder of nature.
-No, there's no canister powder out there yet to really make it shine.
-Yes, there's canister powder out there that's basically acceptable.
-Yes, reamers are available from Kiff.
-Yes, cases are available from BHSS.
-Yes, the cartride will be out there soon. It's a great concept.
-Yes, I have proof in all regards.
-Yes, that's all I can say.
Powdermonkey
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
That's what we been looking for! So much for fitting in a SHORT action...
illegetimi Non Carborundum= Don't let the Bastard's grind you down! Haven't seen that for quite a while.
That's what we been looking for! So much for fitting in a SHORT action...
illegetimi Non Carborundum= Don't let the Bastard's grind you down! Haven't seen that for quite a while.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">given a .338 Lap Mag @ 3.6 OAL vs a .338 Norma Mag @ 3.6 OAL</div></div>
Am i missing something? 3.6 OAL for both doesn't match the photo posted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">given a .338 Lap Mag @ 3.6 OAL vs a .338 Norma Mag @ 3.6 OAL</div></div>
Am i missing something? 3.6 OAL for both doesn't match the photo posted.
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
The 338 Norma should have the same OAL as 308 and 358 Norma (when using similar bullets), atleast thats what the picture in the 2008-2010 Norma catalog shows. OAL for the 308/358 is approx 3.34"
Picture of catalog. (fairly large) 187k
The 338 Norma should have the same OAL as 308 and 358 Norma (when using similar bullets), atleast thats what the picture in the 2008-2010 Norma catalog shows. OAL for the 308/358 is approx 3.34"
Picture of catalog. (fairly large) 187k
Re: 338 Norma Magnum
Im pretty sure myself and 1SMALL JOHNSON already posted several
times that previous posts were incorrect. Disregard pictures and anything else, refer to his post for the facts. The 338 Norma has nothing to do with anything Norma has previously done and is based on existing 338LM cases.
Im pretty sure myself and 1SMALL JOHNSON already posted several
times that previous posts were incorrect. Disregard pictures and anything else, refer to his post for the facts. The 338 Norma has nothing to do with anything Norma has previously done and is based on existing 338LM cases.
