338 Norma Magnum

[lrs50bmg]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

There are projectiles out there in .338 (and some on the way), which will require 9.4 or faster twists. The 300SMK is not the only game in town, just ONE of the choices.

 

[CANAVAR]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DemoSam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Just Roy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the data wasn't published because the powder isn't available to you. So the data would be moot.

Maybe the powder being used <span style="text-decoration: underline">was</span> specifically developed for this cartridge and the numbers are true.

Maybe the powder is made by a MAJOR powder company.

Maybe I know more than I'm saying!</div></div>

Thats exactly my suspicion about the .338 Norma and yes maybe alot of people know more than what is being said. There's alot of praise for the cartridge from people who appear to have something to sell.

Creedmore and Hornady set the bar pretty high with the release of the 6.5 mm Creedmore. ( not that I'm going to run out and buy one ) I really appreciated seeing the thought and information they provided with its introduction. It hit the ground with published load data. I look foreward to when the powder comes available as some less expensive cartridges with similar volume are going to run right along with it.

I see alot of rifles chambered in this cartridge with a 9.3 - 9.5 in twist why so fast? I would think you only require a twist that fast if you planned on running 2600fps with a 300mk?</div></div>

The 338 Norma cartridge was developed spefically around the 300gr SMK.

 

[pale horse]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I have a whb mark V 375 how would it be for a doner action? it just sits I have three 375 H&H know where two more win 70 they should work also

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Just take it easy folks. I'm looking out for you. Like the saying goes, "We will sell no wine before it's time...."

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

OK, so Black Hills Shooters Supply has brass, but sell to dealers only. Anyone on the Hide here going to stock the brass for us non-FFL types?

 

[C.K]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I got mine for $525 for 300(1.75), but I heard the price went up a little around .10-.15. I'm sure some one will handle it here, I know patriot arms has some coming.

 

[miketx2002]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Here's a 5 shot group with off the shelf reloader 22 with a chrono at 2775 using the 300gr match kings.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so Black Hills Shooters Supply has brass, but sell to dealers only. Anyone on the Hide here going to stock the brass for us non-FFL types? </div></div>

Not at all, call in your order for brass.
There will be more showing up soon.

 

[gyr]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

do you think the 338 norma is bearable in a hunting lightweight rifle with no brake?? say 8-9 lbs max. total weight??

 

[Jered Joplin]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

You are going to get a lot of heat off of something that size. With that being said we just built a Lapua hunting rifle that size for Corbon and she's shooting some 5 shot 1/4's with a load he worked up for it.

I still don't highly recommend something that small just saying we did it and it worked.

I'm working on a Sendero contour barrel for myself so I can test that myself.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

If you want a light weight barrel look into Advanced Barrel Systems, ABS for short. They offer a carbon fiber wrapped barrel. Not cheap and there is a bit of a wait time but if light weight is what you want this is the way to go. Shoot me a email if I can help any

 

[gyr]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Jered and Robert, thanks for the replies.

I´ve read about the ABS barrels not just saving weight but also being good at dissipating heat.

However....would recoil be too much in a light rifle with no brake?

 

[Cardinal]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
However....would recoil be too much in a light rifle with no brake? </div></div>

Depends on your tolerance level. The numbers say a load with a 250gr bullet @ 2850 in a 8,5lbs rifle will be close to a 416rem/458Win in recoil. Some can handle it and for others its too much.

 

[JL]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are projectiles out there in .338 (and some on the way), which will require 9.4 or faster twists. The 300SMK is not the only game in town, just ONE of the choices. </div></div>

Yep, lighter choices too

250gr Scenar has proved itself up to 2000meters with 1/12" twist. If shooted from 338Lapua TRG, 250 is flatter up to
around 1200meters compared to 300.

So, is 300gr-optimized cartridge -ballistically- a solution for problem that doesent exist at the first place?

Heavy bullets have been trendy for a while in .30cal too, but nowdays peoples are starting to see 155gr possibilitys, mainly with Scenars. In practice, its better to long range too thanks to very good BC/MV ratio.

Also, common opinion when talking about TRG42:s is insufficient twist, but I personally havent needed tighter.
Tested 250gr LockBases +1600yds with very good results. In fact, just re-barreled TRG and new barrell is 1/12 too.
I just didnt see any reason to change load/bullet since current setup works well.


Again, not judging 338Norma here, just pointing that heavyer doesent automatically mean better long range performance.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

JL
I wonder why Lapua even ventured out from the 250gr Scenar to even offer a 300gr Scenar for the Lapua ?
If the 250 was the ultimate choice.
I wonder why they changed thier load length just to locate the 300gr in proper position in the neck of the Lapua ?
What is that load Lngth, 3.800 something ?,that ought to do the trick !!!
The Scenar and the Lockbase in 250gr wght are great bullets shot them both.

Buy the way the 300gr choice isint the only game in town for the Norma .

 

[JL]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Have None</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JL
I wonder why Lapua even ventured out from the 250gr Scenar to even offer a 300gr Scenar for the Lapua ?
If the 250 was the ultimate choice.
</div></div>

Feel free to quote me, where did I mention that 250gr is "ultimate choice"?
Just said that 250gr flies flatter to about 1200meters mark- and keeps on going predictably hundreds of meters after that point.
So, LR shooting advantage that heavyer bullet itself brings, it not necessarily so big that some might presume.

Fact surely doesent make 338Norma any better or worse, just mentioned it as an reference. Please dont take it personally.
But -some opinions in this thread give impression that Norma has almost invented a wheel again- or at least made wheel more circular than others.

(less recoil, muzzle blast and heat with same boolets/same MV:s)


And for the record, again, I have no reason to doubt that 338Norma wouldnt work better with 300gr bullets- and surely max COL in typical actions/magazines limits 338Lapua COL w/300gr. Improvement to this naturally is a good thing itself- If one wants to use 300gr bullets.

 

[gyr]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Thanks Cardinal.- wouldnt be comfortable to shoot during a long shooting session ¡¡

 

[brianksain]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also ordered some reloading dies from them while already having ammo purchased from Black Hills.
The Black Hills ammo (lot 158) was extremely substandard in performance from what I already knew was a sub MOA weapon.
There I said it...say what you will but the ammo, not weapon or cartridge design for that matter was very substandard in performance.</div></div>

Straying out of my lane ...

I have known Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills Ammunition for years.

I have been to the shop and no one in the industry hand inspects <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">every single round</span></span> that comes out of their place.

Black Hills does.

They are making some of the best ammo on the market and the US military votes with their wallet.

I know that Jeff gives away a ton of ammo every year to the best of causes ... and is also a staunch supporter of the troops.

He and Kristi are beloved by those in what can be a cut throat industry.

But things happen. Not every rifle likes every load.

So it seems to me that since this cartridge is not even on their catalog listings (or anyone elses) ... and appears to be a newcomer with great potential ... that Black Hills might have wished some discreet feedback in that regard rather than a slam on the world wide web.

I guess you could say your testing could actually be a helpful part of the development of the round as it enters the industry rather than a slam after one bad experience. How cool would that be !!!

Jeff Hoffman is a big boy and can fight his own battles but I am sure he would have wanted to know what was up with the ammunition prior to your post.

Maybe if we try and HELP each other ... we all win.

There are enough people out there hurting us gun owners.

One fight. One team.

That's how I roll anyway.

Back to my hole.

Brian K. Sain
www.AmericanSnipers.org

 

[brianksain]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I didn't mean to provoke an argument or "pile on" here ... or anything like that.

Just trying to be the same good kid my momma raised.

bk

 

[Arch]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Yeah, that's the way to roll BK.

I once dated a girl named Norma Magnum, when I was living abroad near Torremolinos doing a summer language session. He dad was a tech rep who avoided the draft by moving to Spain and he could not stand me. She had this cool squeeze box that she wore on her chest.

 

[brianksain]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

 

[Fletcher/AAC]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Anyone have any 338NM velocity numbers for a 20-22" barrel with a 300SMK? Is 2550fps a realistic goal?

 

[shpanther]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'm getting 2700-2800 with RL-22 and 300's. 2775 ave. If you get the 20-40fps loss per inch you're there.If you get the 50-70 it gets tight.

If you're in good with the smith it's worth doing in steps.Two or three cut and crowns with break threading could get silly.

 

[TXCraig1]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Have None</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder why Lapua even ventured out from the 250gr Scenar to even offer a 300gr Scenar for the Lapua ?</div></div>
Because they think there is a market for it, and they think they will increase their profits by doing so...

 

[Cardinal]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Apparently Norma has a new 275gr match bullet for this cartridge. Anybody got any more info about it?

 

[Sid Post]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'm hoping to have my "338" rifle built this spring. I already have a PAI 308Win (sweet stick), a 300WM factory Remington Sendero, and some smaller stuff so, this rifle is destined for long range target work. I also would possibly take it on a "once in a lifetime" Elk hunt if it's not too unwieldy with my 300WM as a back up "walking rifle".

People seem to like the Lapua brass better but, is the Norma brass enough inferior to have that drive the caliber choice for my build? I intend to shoot 250Gr to 300Gr projectiles through a 1x~9.3 twist barrel with a suppressor. I expect it to shoot lighter ~225Gr projectiles pretty well but, that is a secondary choice for me.

This 338 Norma seems to be slightly better for heavy projectiles which seems to be where a lot of people are going with the 338LM so, it is certainly a tempting choice.

 

[turtlesniper]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

i had george build me a 338 lapua using the seekins metal bullet can be seated out to 2.790 coal know what would be the advantage to the norma on this.

Later: if you read this pm me i have a few questions for you if you have the time to answer them

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Clay, BK.
Just back in from a family vacation.
You have asked the right questions regarding the .338NM cartridges from Black Hills. I would have asked the same types of questions myself.
The performance levels of the .338NM have been verified at levels way above my pay grade for some time now.
Sub MOA accuracy to such levels as 1/4 minute performance at extreme distances using RL22 and other types of powders have been shown so many times from several different shooters including different entities of our Military that it has become the norm.
I have been very fortunate in the fact that I have shot this cartridge in three different phases of it's development:
-The initial offering and weapon system developed for Ft Benning.
-The second and more powerful cartridge.
-It's final and perfect development now known as the .338 Norma Magnum. The most powerful and forgiving cartridge of them all.

The rifle system I used was a custom build, it was verified to shoot a "ragged single hole" straight off the bench using Black Hills ammo other than lot 158.
That being said, my expectations of the same performance, the same type of load, and it's qualities should be understood.
I purchased 5 boxes of ammunition for a demo that was going on for $100.00 per box. The lot number received was lot 158 X 5.
Several lots of ammo were made at Black Hills before and after the lot that I received so it wasn't Mr. Hoffman's first swing at it.
The performance shown by that lot was deemed as substandard in several different ways.
-Velocity levels in the upper 2600 fps range with lows in the 2660 through 2690 ranges.
-Groups at 100 were showing signs of vertical stringing, pattern shots outside of hole or clover leaf type prints etc...
-At two points there were significant deviations in the amount of grains of powder charges measured between cartridges.
I did in fact contact Black Hills and made my findings and showed my dissatisfaction with the performance and asked if Mr. Jeff Hoffman would please contact me to take care of the situation. They do have a guarantee on their ammo.
At the time Mr. Hoffman either was too busy to field my question, or possibly his associates that answer the phone didn't deem my complaint to be sufficient enough to inform Mr. Hoffman of the situation.
I am certainly not the only individual that was sold ammunition for the .338 Norma Magnum that had the same results. I have chatted with some of the individuals that did.
I guess I'm the only one with either the guts of lack of brains to make such a claim public.
As a paying consumer regardless of how well I may know the .338 Norma Magnum I and you have the right to make a complaint, public or not.
I will now tell all of you that being as I did make a public comment about my experience I did in fact get two phone calls from Black Hills almost two months after my purchase and complaint asking me to return the unused ammunition for a full refund.
I did call Mr. Hoffman back during my family vacation twice to tell him how things went. He was very cordial with me and has offered me a full refund.
I usually use reloaded ammunition, however for that particular day "off the shelf" ammo was requested by the individuals shooting the rifle.
I have no problem with Black Hills ammunition, Mr. Hoffman or his employees for that matter.
I was just stating facts, plain and simple.

 

[armorpl8]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

After looking back at the way I worded my earlier post, I realized that it is too accusing. Rather than trying to edit it to make it sound different, I deleted it because I don't want to come across as throwing boogers.

Even if you had not responded per above, I should have posted the questions differently.

Sounds like you definitely have a right to fuss about the product.

respectfully,
Clay

 

[brianksain]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I think discussions like these are good for the industry if it is kept civil, as this one has been.

I just know that sometimes things happen and for whatever reason ... contacts are not made, etc.

Having lived through FOUR direct hit hurricanes ... while managing a huge charity .org ...

Sometimes people do not get things in what they think is a timely manner or ... whatever.

Commo gets fubar and sometimes we (AmericanSnipers.org) get slammed for things we just cannot control, foresee or just plain did not know about. And sometimes ... we make mistakes.

I DO KNOW that very few (if any) of those in the anmmunition industry wuld have taken the time to talk to you at length about the matter, much less offer a refund.

NO ONE ... in THAT business ... does that.

Out of curiosity ... and vertical stringing notwithstanding ... what was the group size on your 100 yard targets?

I would be interested to know how the cartridge develops from here.

I too want to build an extreme range rifle.

Probably on one of Sir Martin Bordsen's new actions.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

BK, Clay.
I'm glad you checked back in.
You both hit it right on the head with your questions and feedback.
Mr. Hoffman is a stand up dude. I'm sure the check will show up soon.
BK....Call me for cryin' out loud, I haven't talked to you since SHOT. I have a question for you also. (901) 289-1110 will get you in touch straight away.

Stay low brothers...

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Update:
Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills fully refunded the funds for the .338NM ammo.
If I told the beginning of the story, I thought I owed Black Hills the happy ending......in print.

Thanks.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

For you folks that got load information, anything you can post would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Look up "Have None" Posts he has posted some load info in this post

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I got it, thanks.

Anyone try Retumbo in this cartridge?

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Nah,
Just RL22 and RS Magnum.
The 91.5 gr RS Mag load with the WLRM primers seem to work the best so far.
I may be bumping up the load for a pressure check soon.

 

[rem700man]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

tagged

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

No I dont think Norma has a 275gr bullet ;

but they are in the process of starting thier 1st production run of 150.000 pcs of brass as we speak.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

All,
Got new dies in, they're pretty as a picture. Now got to get in the darn bushing I forgot to order earlier. As for powder, things are looking good. I'm keeping you in mind.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Outstanding.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Groovy.

Any WAG on the availability date of the powder before I order 8 pounds of Ramshot Magnum

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Good news and bad. The powder will initially be available to only Gov't and commercial loaders. The only way it'll get to the reloading market is if you folks ask for it. The canister guys will do a market survey and see if it's worth their while. Very sorry there, but it's not my call. If you want some, best to email the cansiter folks and tell them you want it. I really suggest you NOT call them, but rather send an email.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Maybe I missed it but what company would that be? I will definatly send a email or 2 to them!

 

[Yorman]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'm going to send an email to Hodgdon. They brought Hybrid 100V to market so they already have ties to St Marks Powder.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

It kind of cracks me up sometimes.
I get calls, emails etc...concerning the .338NM.
Some ask if it's really all what it is cracked up to be?
My answer is yes, if you want a very forgiving 300 gr bullet cartridge that performs sub .5 to .25 all the way out to where your scope fails then have one made up for yourself.
Another item to consider is the powder company of St. Marks (hello by the way) takes all the time and energy to very specifically blend a powder to use with the .338NM.
Validity, plain and simple.
Send the emails, cause a ruckus, get them to offer the powder.
That way I can stop using RSM and use some of the powder that was designed for the cartridge.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Thanks for the up-date fellas, but need some specifics on who we need to bother about sending out the powder to the public.

Feel free to PM if you need to.

Thanks!

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'm agree with HiCapMag! we need some specifics! Heck we should do a group email to the company!

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Cheese, what kind of velocity pick up can be expected if one was to use the correct powder, for the .338 NM compared to that of RL22 and RS Mag?

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I will be sending Hodgdon an email later this evening.

The only public email I see on their site is [email protected]

If anyone has a better or more appropriate email address, holler.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Tim,
I just got your message. I tried to call you back....no joy.
Call me when you are back in Country.