Rifle Scopes 50% off a Minox scope with purchase of a M18 rifle at EO

[stello1001]

Ouch, I too remember when the LRHS's were up there, then GAP starts selling them for $750, now you can't get that scope (LHRS has been discontinued) but essentially the same scope is the LRTS which has also been over $1000, I'd be curious what the current resale value of these scopes are. Vortex has dropped their price on the Razor Gen II's, they used to sell for $2500 now they are at $1700.

I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.

 

[MOUNTIC]

Well said Bill. I think the examples of the drop in prices are endless in the scope world. You are right about a slight price drop of a few hundred bucks during the sale.

 

[MOUNTIC]

I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.

Can you send me the link to these LRHSi 4-18 scopes for that. I would buy one for that in a heartbeat.

 

[MOUNTIC]

Even at retail the ZP5 is still one of the best available at that price point. I still prefer the ZP5 over the ZCOs. The TT is the only one that is above the ZP5 on my list. If the ZCO was $2500 and the ZP5 was also the same, I would buy the ZP5.

 

[stello1001]

Can you send me the link to these LRHSi 4-18 scopes for that. I would buy one for that in a heartbeat.

Pm sent

 

[260284]

I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.

I believe @gr8fuldoug is selling the 3-12 LRST for that price, not a 4.5-18 or illuminated. I have a 4.5-18 LRHS and a 4.5-18 LRSTi, but I didn't pay full price for them. Could have got a LRHSi like the GAP deal for $650, should have sold the non-illuminated one and done it, but missed the boat. They are still a good scope at $750-900.

 

[stello1001]

I believe @gr8fuldoug is selling the 3-12 LRST for that price, not a 4.5-18 or illuminated. I have a 4.5-18 LRHS and a 4.5-18 LRSTi, but I didn't pay full price for them. Could have got a LRHSi like the GAP deal for $650, should have sold the non-illuminated one and done it, but missed the boat. They are still a good scope at $750-900.

I agree, Doug is selling non illum 3-12 in FDE. I also agree that the ones in the PX are not completely crazy high price wise. They're priced OK. But for me, the 3-12 @ $599 is still good enough that I'll take that at a much lower price over the ones in the PX. At least until Doug has them of course.

 

[Glassaholic]

Can you send me the link to these LRHSi 4-18 scopes for that. I would buy one for that in a heartbeat.

I loved the LRHSi 4.5-18 I had and regret selling it (I actually prefer the G2H over the G3), heck, I regret selling most of the scopes I've had but some more than others.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Ouch, I too remember when the LRHS's were up there, then GAP starts selling them for $750, now you can't get that scope (LHRS has been discontinued) but essentially the same scope is the LRTS which has also been over $1000, I'd be curious what the current resale value of these scopes are. Vortex has dropped their price on the Razor Gen II's, they used to sell for $2500 now they are at $1700.

My guess with Minox is that if ZP5 sales struggle this year (which I expect to happen for new sales in the US) then it's quite likely we might see some new scopes next year, or it's entirely possible that Minox realizes they will always struggle with gaining ground in the US market and may choose to abandon the market here, or decide that their scopes aren't worth what they thought they were (in the US market) and drop prices across the board. But I'm speculating and we may be completely surprised and Minox doesn't do anything for quite some time. I think the biggest negative impact the 50% off deal will have moving forward is the nervousness of future "new" buyers as there will always be the thought, "if I pay $3k for this scope, and Minox does another 50% off deal tomorrow, that will suck" and I think that trepidation is what will cause future buyers hesitation. We usually see manufacturers doing these types of deals right before new scopes are released, I am hoping for a ZP6 line, but I'm not holding my breath as there has been no indication this is happening anytime soon.

I understand some of the frustrations some have regarding the 50% off deal and I realize that, for some, you do not want to purchase anything else from Minox and that is your prerogative; however, how you feel about this situation does not detract from the fact that the ZP5's are great scopes and offered a great value even before the 50% off deal. If Tangent Theta were to do the same (offer 50% off all their scopes) it might really upset a lot of people who paid full price, but would it mean the scopes no longer performed as alpha scopes? When Schmidt and Bender dropped their US prices considerably a few years ago, how many decided "I will never buy from Schmidt again" because they had paid full price before the announcement? Manufacturer's make decisions, sometimes stupid decisions, because of fear which is usually brought on by lack of sales. For foreign manufacturers it must be even worse because they are often delayed in understanding trends in those foreign markets and end up "missing the boat" and finally bring out their top tier product only to find that five other manufacturer's did the same.

One final situation and I'll get off my soapbox Kahles- in 2018 Kahles announced their new K318i and K525i scopes, as we all know Kahles has a huge fanbase on the Hide and many swore by (and some swore at) their K624i's so when Kahles announced these new 5x erector scopes a bunch took notice, including myself. Because of my obsession with Ultra Shorts and my disappointment with the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44, I decided to buy the Kahles K318i which absolutely crushed the Leupold with regard to overall IQ, in fact, it even beat out my Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20's in IQ. While I never owned the K525i I watched and listened to others and the trend soon revealed itself that these scopes struggle optically above 20x and have a narrow FOV compared to the competition. While the K318i is a stunning optical performer, it too suffers from narrow DOF which was made evident when I had the opportunity to review the Schmidt US scopes, the ZCO ZC420, the Kahles K318i and the Minox ZP5 3-15. While the Kahles kept up optically with the other alpha class scopes IMO, it struggled mightily with FOV and even though the scope had served me well for over a year, I decided it was time to sell (yes, to try something new). When these scopes were new they listed at $3200 and deals were few and far between, but when I went to sell I had to settle for $2300, $900 less than when new. The K525i's seem to suffer from the same fate with very low resale value (compared to the K624i). Part of the issue is the market has been flooded with excellent scope options and folks are willing to sell at such losses to get the next new hotness. We should not be looking at our scopes as investment opportunities, but more like commodities used to push the limits of our gear and skills. If we decide we want to get another scope, then we are going to lose some money, some scopes more than others yes, but rarely will we ever make money on the sale of a used scope (especially if we bought it new).

So, to sum this all up, Minox was selling the ZP5 5-25 for $3k and Kahles K525i for $3k (give or take for both), before the 50% off deal used ZP5's were selling for around $2300-$2400, during the deal they dropped to about $2000 - $2200 depending on condition, the Kahles K525i has had a similar hit and they didn't offer any 50% off deal. So has the ZP5 really lost that much value compared to pre-50% off deal, it certainly doesn't seem that way, maybe $200 on average which I expect to slowly climb back up now that the deal is over and most likely level off in the $2300 range (with some going for less and others going for more).

Very good, accurate and thoughtful write up, Thank You. Particularly paragraphs two and three.

I doubt anyone has forgotten my previous rant, so I won't repeat it in whole here.

One of the main things that I find to be really unfortunate about Minox's 50% sale "strategy" is that in the case of the ZP-5 (as you have correctly pointed out), it is an Alpha class scope, but their (commercial) actions have severely and negatively impacted that standing in the marketplace. Eg; your observations about new buyer hesitation. They/Minox simply could not resist either the temptation of the short term gain, or could not resist the pressure from above to increase sales "NOW" (at all costs, previous buyers be damned).

My fundamental gripe was that when any of us look at Alpha class scopes/manufacturers, the 50% off (or anything remotely resembling that percentage) is just not done. TT, ZCO, SuB, (previously) Minox, et al, had/have limited distribution. The manufacturers do that for two reasons. Number one is to not have to deal with too many distributors whoring up the market, undercutting each other, then turning around and crying to the manufacturer about "that asshole other distributor".
The second reason is that by having limited distribution, the manufacturer can more easily/effectively lay down and enforce the law about discounting, which has the desirable effect of protecting their brand as well as helping (I didn't say guaranteeing) to maintain the value of the investment that the end customer has made. I am quite certain that as an example, ZCO dealers know full well that there are other distributors that would love to have the line and are constantly calling ZCO, sweet talking them and wanting to get their hands on the line. Same for TT. If you are a distributor that has the line, you'd be a fool to not toe the manufacturer's line.

When a customer invests $3,000.00 or more in an Alpha class optic, there is a very strong desire on the part of that customer that he will be treated with fairness, some degree of appreciation and respect. Minox didn't do that. In fact, it has the appearance that they either didn't even consider that, or they did consider it and just didn't give a shit.

As a bit of a somewhat similar, shirt tail comparison, look at the high(er) end camera and lens market. "Digital rot" is a well known term/condition as it applies to digital camera bodies. Just about everyone knows that the camera body that you buy today is going to depreciate to about 30% of what you paid for it in two years. Alpha scopes do not have that same reputation, so no long time owner of a ZP-5 could have known in advance that they'd be suffering the same (financial) fate as someone who had purchased a new digital camera body. It is also a well known fact that quality, high end camera lenses retain their value far better than what the digital bodies do.

Fo those of you that took advantage of the 50% off deal, my hat is genuinely off to you. You got a good deal on a good scope, good for you.

My previous rant was as much a baring of my soul to ZCO. I have more trust in them that they are smarter than Minox and won't pull that same crap. I pulled my investment out of Minox (at a significant loss) and moved it over to ZCO. I did so willingly and fully aware of all the consequences. If ZCO were to do something like what Minox did, I wouldn't feel any differently toward them as I do towards Minox.

 

[Glassaholic]

Very good, accurate and thoughtful write up, Thank You.

I doubt anyone has forgotten my previous rant, so I won't repeat it in whole here.

One of the main things that I find to be really unfortunate about Minox's 50% sale "strategy" is that in the case of the ZP-5 (as you have correctly pointed out), it is an Alpha class scope, but their (commercial) actions had a severely negative impact on that standing in the marketplace. Eg; your observations about new buyer hesitation. They/Minox simply could not resist either the temptation of the short term gain, or could not resist the pressure from above to increase sales "NOW" (at all costs, previous buyers be damned).

My fundamental gripe was that when any of us look at Alpha class scopes/manufacturers, the 50% off (or anything remotely resembling that percentage) is just not done. TT, ZCO, SuB, (previously) Minox, et al, had/have limited distribution. The manufacturers do that for two reasons. Number one is to not have to deal with too many distributors whoring up the market, undercutting each other, then turning around and crying to the manufacturer about "that asshole other distributor".
The second reason is that by having limited distribution, the manufacturer can more easily/effectively lay down the law about discounting, which has the desirable effect of helping (I didn't say guaranteeing) to maintain the value of the investment that the end customer has made. I am quite certain that as an example, ZCO dealers know full well that there are other distributors that would love to have the line and are constantly calling ZCO, sweet talking them and wanting to get their hands on the line. Same for TT. If you are a distributor that has the line, you'd be a fool to not toe the manufacturer's line.

When a customer invests $3,000.00 or more in an Alpha class optic, there is a very strong desire on the part of that customer that he will be treated with fairness, some degree of appreciation and respect. Minox didn't do that. In fact, it has the appearance that they either didn't even consider that, or they did consider it and just didn't give a shit.

As a bit of a somewhat similar, shirt tail comparison, look at the high(er) end camera and lens market. "Digital rot" is a well known term/condition as it applies to digital camera bodies. Just about everyone knows that the camera body that you buy today is going to depreciate to about 30% of what you paid for it in two years. Alpha scopes do not have that same reputation, so no long time owner of a ZP-5 could have known in advance that they'd be suffering the same (financial) fate as someone who had purchased a new digital camera body. It is also a well known fact that quality, high end camera lenses retain their value far better than what the digital bodies do.

Fo those of you that took advantage of the 50% off deal, my hat is genuinely off to you. You got a good deal on a good scope, good for you.

My previous rant was as much a baring of my soul to ZCO. I have more trust in them that they are smarter than Minox and won't pull that same crap. I pulled my investment out of Minox (at a significant loss) and moved it over to ZCO. I did so willingly and fully aware of all the consequences. If ZCO were to do something like what Minox did, I wouldn't feel any differently toward them as I do towards Minox.

I hear what you're saying Thread and appreciate the explanation. My biggest hesitancy with ZCO is the reticle, I love their glass, I love their turrets and their sight picture is truly something you have to experience first hand, and they have better/quicker warranty, but until they get a reticle similar to the MR4 or Gen 3XR I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger. My guess is, you prefer the MPCT reticles as a lot of shooters do (I think of it as an enhanced SKMR which has been one of the top reticles since it was introduced by Kahles) so it probably made sense for you to switch, unfortunately it sounds like that switch came right in the middle of this deal which had to be painful. I have been burned by drop in market value before as well, in fact, I grabbed one of the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 scopes because I wanted to see how it would compare to my old K318i and some of the other alpha ultra shorts, fully expecting for it to not perform quite as well, I have been impressed by how good it is for the price, I was going to wait for illumination but got tired of waiting and decided to get the non-illuminated model in hopes that I could sell it for a decent price but it has sat in the Hide classifieds for a while now and I've had to drop the price to over $200 less than what I paid new (and I got a good deal, or so I thought). The scope is actually very impressive and I'm not sure why it's not selling, but I'm definitely losing out on this one, but birddog is getting close to convincing me I can do without illumination and I may just stick it on one of my other rifles.

With the alpha's I agree, no one has done something as drastic as Minox; however, Schmidt did drop their prices considerably a few years ago so I wouldn't go so far as to say it has never been done. That being said, I do not see ZCO dropping their prices like that anytime soon; however, like all manufacturers I would not be surprised as soon as ZCO recup's on their R&D a bit and sales are beginning to dip that they might drop MAP, again, doubtful it will be drastic but to date ZCO's MSRP and MAP have been the same, they have not allowed their dealers to drop the price any and I expect that to change over time, but who knows, maybe they think their pricing structure is sustainable for the life of the product and we won't ever see any discounted ZCO's. I would like to see ZCO honor military and LE but again, they are not showing any signs of doing so anytime soon.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I hear what you're saying Thread and appreciate the explanation. My biggest hesitancy with ZCO is the reticle, I love their glass, I love their turrets and their sight picture is truly something you have to experience first hand, and they have better/quicker warranty, but until they get a reticle similar to the MR4 or Gen 3XR I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger. My guess is, you prefer the MPCT reticles as a lot of shooters do (I think of it as an enhanced SKMR which has been one of the top reticles since it was introduced by Kahles) so it probably made sense for you to switch, unfortunately it sounds like that switch came right in the middle of this deal which had to be painful. I have been burned by drop in market value before as well, in fact, I grabbed one of the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 scopes because I wanted to see how it would compare to my old K318i and some of the other alpha ultra shorts, fully expecting for it to not perform quite as well, I have been impressed by how good it is for the price, I was going to wait for illumination but got tired of waiting and decided to get the non-illuminated model in hopes that I could sell it for a decent price but it has sat in the Hide classifieds for a while now and I've had to drop the price to over $200 less than what I paid new (and I got a good deal, or so I thought). The scope is actually very impressive and I'm not sure why it's not selling, but I'm definitely losing out on this one, but birddog is getting close to convincing me I can do without illumination and I may just stick it on one of my other rifles.

With the alpha's I agree, no one has done something as drastic as Minox; however, Schmidt did drop their prices considerably a few years ago so I wouldn't go so far as to say it has never been done. That being said, I do not see ZCO dropping their prices like that anytime soon; however, like all manufacturers I would not be surprised as soon as ZCO recup's on their R&D a bit and sales are beginning to dip that they might drop MAP, again, doubtful it will be drastic but to date ZCO's MSRP and MAP have been the same, they have not allowed their dealers to drop the price any and I expect that to change over time, but who knows, maybe they think their pricing structure is sustainable for the life of the product and we won't ever see any discounted ZCO's. I would like to see ZCO honor military and LE but again, they are not showing any signs of doing so anytime soon.

Hi Bill, thanks for the response. Fundamentally, I agree. I’m overseas right now and it’s bedtime. I’ll reread this and come back to you with some responses/thoughts/opinions in a bit. Although, I’ll try to make them brief, no sense in me being redundant to what you’ve said.

Thanks again,

 

[UPSTATERAM]

Talked with Yim today. Put my order in and expecting delivery sometime in February. They are honoring coupons through February 2020. Looking forward to getting my scope.

did you have to buy the rifle prior to 12/31 for Them to honor through February?

 

[UPSTATERAM]

D

This is super tempting but i gotta offload an ATACR first.

Did you end up getting a zp5? How’s it compare to the Atacr?

 

[Glassaholic]

did you have to buy the rifle prior to 12/31 for Them to honor through February?

Yes

 

[UPSTATERAM]

Pretty much every optic that is not the latest and greatest and on backorder, etc. will lose value, some more than others depending on popularity among the community, but yes, if you bought a ZP5 last month and paid full price and then saw this deal, you might feel as Jay mentions above. I wish Minox would have done the deal through the dealer network instead of through Minox directly.

Yes

Thanks for clarifying. I bought a NIB ZP5 last week and deciding on an atacr mil xt or another zp5 in the PX.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Glassaholic]

Thanks for clarifying. I bought a NIB ZP5 last week and deciding on an atacr mil xt or another zp5 in the PX.

Thoughts anyone?

Do you like it, the ZP5 that is? Glass is going to be better than the ATACR but turrets might be nicer on NF; however, latest turrets on ZP5 are very impressive. Mil-XT reticle is nice but so is the MR4. Most likely you can pickup another ZP5 cheaper than you could the NF, but If you’re really wanting to try the NF and compare, if you buy used and don’t like it as much you can probably sell it with little to no loss.

 

[UPSTATERAM]

Do you like it, the ZP5 that is? Glass is going to be better than the ATACR but turrets might be nicer on NF; however, latest turrets on ZP5 are very impressive. Mil-XT reticle is nice but so is the MR4. Most likely you can pickup another ZP5 cheaper than you could the NF, but If you’re really wanting to try the NF and compare, if you buy used and don’t like it as much you can probably sell it with little to no loss.

problem is I haven’t received the ZP5 yet it’s being shipping tomorrow. I definitely prefer glass quality most but I can get a new in box NF for 2350. You think the Minox will probably be in the same cost range after this whole 50% sale? Part of me wants to try the NF but it seems feedback is consistent that the Minox glass is superior. I get the
Whole NF is built like a tank but I’m not going to war with it. Thanks for your two cents.

 

[Scwalker83]

Good on ZCO for treating everyone equal. No group of people should be entitled to special treatment at the expense of the common person. Next time I'm looking for a scope I will definitely buy one for that reason alone.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Hi Bill, thanks for the response. Fundamentally, I agree. I’m overseas right now and it’s bedtime. I’ll reread this and come back to you with some responses/thoughts/opinions in a bit. Although, I’ll try to make them brief, no sense in me being redundant to what you’ve said.

Thanks again,

I hear what you're saying Thread and appreciate the explanation. My biggest hesitancy with ZCO is the reticle, I love their glass, I love their turrets and their sight picture is truly something you have to experience first hand, and they have better/quicker warranty, but until they get a reticle similar to the MR4 or Gen 3XR I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger. My guess is, you prefer the MPCT reticles as a lot of shooters do (I think of it as an enhanced SKMR which has been one of the top reticles since it was introduced by Kahles) so it probably made sense for you to switch, unfortunately it sounds like that switch came right in the middle of this deal which had to be painful. I have been burned by drop in market value before as well, in fact, I grabbed one of the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 scopes because I wanted to see how it would compare to my old K318i and some of the other alpha ultra shorts, fully expecting for it to not perform quite as well, I have been impressed by how good it is for the price, I was going to wait for illumination but got tired of waiting and decided to get the non-illuminated model in hopes that I could sell it for a decent price but it has sat in the Hide classifieds for a while now and I've had to drop the price to over $200 less than what I paid new (and I got a good deal, or so I thought). The scope is actually very impressive and I'm not sure why it's not selling, but I'm definitely losing out on this one, but birddog is getting close to convincing me I can do without illumination and I may just stick it on one of my other rifles.

With the alpha's I agree, no one has done something as drastic as Minox; however, Schmidt did drop their prices considerably a few years ago so I wouldn't go so far as to say it has never been done. That being said, I do not see ZCO dropping their prices like that anytime soon; however, like all manufacturers I would not be surprised as soon as ZCO recup's on their R&D a bit and sales are beginning to dip that they might drop MAP, again, doubtful it will be drastic but to date ZCO's MSRP and MAP have been the same, they have not allowed their dealers to drop the price any and I expect that to change over time, but who knows, maybe they think their pricing structure is sustainable for the life of the product and we won't ever see any discounted ZCO's. I would like to see ZCO honor military and LE but again, they are not showing any signs of doing so anytime soon.

Hi Bill,

After re-reading everything in your post, we're pretty much in agreement. As far as the reticle, I'm probably not as particular or sophisticated as you/your criteria. I'm older, physically challenged (hips replaced) and am not going to be shooting in anything resembling PRS types of competition. Position shooting is out, as I just don't enjoy it anymore.

Having looked at the new MPCT 3 ZCO reticle, surprisingly, it does look less cluttered that the MPCT 2, but I would caution anyone trying to decide between the two, that the MPCT 2 is a pretty damned good reticle. If I were to make the choice today, I would probably choose the MPCT 3 new reticle. But, while already owning multiple copies of the MPCT 2, I'm not going to sell them/upgrade. I'm perfectly happy with them.

Oh, and something you might get a little satisfaction out of hearing.........I do think a very, very slight edge goes to the ZP-5 glass vs ZCO. But, it is so slight that someone would be hard pressed to see any real appreciable difference. Now, if you want to discuss eyebox/sight picture, the edge distinctly goes to ZCO.

As far as your preference for the MR-4 reticle......cool, that's what makes markets. Glad that you have found a reticle that you are as happy with as you are. Like I said above, if I had one (let's say the MPCT-2) and had never seen the MR-4, I wouldn't be wanting. Like I said, my needs are probably less sophisticated......

Take care

 

[308pirate]

People here still think optics (any fucking "tier", I don't care) or rifles are investments?

LO-fucking-L

This whole thread whining about losing "value" is retarded and has certainly been an eye opener.

 

[SD Carpenter]

An investment assumes gaining money....

 

[jakelly]

I don’t think anyone thinks of them as investments at least in appreciating assets terms.

 

[5RWill]

D


Did you end up getting a zp5? How’s it compare to the Atacr?

Yeah i did. My most recent ZP5 was better than my ATACR pretty much all around and i thought i had an exceptional ATACR. I might have liked the turrets better on the ATACR, but everything else went to the Minox. IQ it's the best scope i've owned bar none and looked through outside of ZCO which the brief time i had to compare them, though they are very similar.

 

[jakelly]

I also don’t think that people expect unreasonable amounts of retained value. What these companies are doing is bad business. It’s damaging their customer, our sports, and ultimately them.

When you are selling riflescopes for $3-5000, to a market where 90% can’t raise $1000 debt free, you have a major obstacle to overcome. You are selling an heirloom product. It better be right, you better stand behind it, and that guy had better believe he bought an heirloom product, or you are going to find out the hard way you’ve lost the market’s confidence. Again, bad business.

 

[308pirate]

An investment assumes gaining money....

First, investments have risk. So no, investment does not assume monetary gains. Those who assume so are bound to be butthurt when their investment tanks.

Second, investment is the word I've seen used right here in this thread by the butthurt regarding these scopes.

 

[308pirate]

I don’t think anyone thinks of them as investments at least in appreciating assets terms.

But they did in terms of retained market value. As if any manufacturer is bound to guarantee or safeguard that value

LOL

 

[308pirate]

What these companies are doing is bad business.

We shall see.....

You know who makes bad business decisions? Those who need to borrow to buy things that aren't necessities.

 

[DJL2]

People here still think optics (any fucking "tier", I don't care) or rifles are investments?

LO-fucking-L

This whole thread whining about losing "value" is retarded and has certainly been an eye opener.

IKR?

Reading this, I'm reminded of a story from the good book about some dudes working in a field as day hires. The guys that hired on after lunch got the same pay as the dudes that hired on at first light. First group of dudes were salty AF. Interesting story, might be worth a read/re-read. ;-)

I'm sorry I missed the deal.

 

[UPSTATERAM]

If anyone has a 50% off coupon still I’ll buy it for $300.

 

[panhndl]

IKR?

Reading this, I'm reminded of a story from the good book about some dudes working in a field as day hires. The guys that hired on after lunch got the same pay as the dudes that hired on at first light. First group of dudes were salty AF. Interesting story, might be worth a read/re-read. ;-)

I'm sorry I missed the deal.

That's exactly the same story I thought of.

 

[jakelly]

But they did in terms of retained market value. As if any manufacturer is bound to guarantee or safeguard that value

LOL

Then why do they institute and enforce MAP policies?

People are taking issue with these companies making decisions that instantly, significantly, and negatively effect the scopes’ value. That’s all I’ve heard anyone “whine” about here. Doesn’t seem like anyone is talking about a class action damages suit either (meaning they don’t think anyone is “bound”). They’re saying, “Neat idea. Great for the other guy. I’m never gonna buy from them again, and while I’m thinking about it... F them.” And your retort is, “(Paraphrased) It’s a tool. You were happy when you bought it, take responsibility for your choice, snowflake. LOfnL!!”

I think both perspectives have some merit. I’ve personally used both. But to challenge whether or not it’s bad business is absurd. Any business decision that turns your loyal customers and best salesman into your critics, is a horrible decision. Survivable? Probably. But poor? Yes. There have been several companies able to handle product innovation and release while protecting their brand with no blowback.

 

[Glassaholic]

I think it's also beneficial to understand that these decisions are being made by executives in other countries, I suppose it's possible that Blaser USA execs (if they exist) made the decision, maybe they didn't understand the full repercussions or, like was previously mentioned, they didn't think people would buy cheap rifles and then use the coupon to purchase their most expensive optics. I'm sure they learned a lot through it.

What's done is done, sounds like some bridges were burned but some new bridges were built, only time will tell how this affects them overall and for future sales.

 

[Glassaholic]

You know who makes bad business decisions? Those who need to borrow to buy things that aren't necessities.

I haven't necessarily agreed with everything you've said pirate, but this here is spot on!

 

[308pirate]

Then why do they institute and enforce MAP policies?

To protect their margins, not the margins of possible resellers (or speculators) down the road.

 

[Glassaholic]

problem is I haven’t received the ZP5 yet it’s being shipping tomorrow. I definitely prefer glass quality most but I can get a new in box NF for 2350. You think the Minox will probably be in the same cost range after this whole 50% sale? Part of me wants to try the NF but it seems feedback is consistent that the Minox glass is superior. I get the whole NF is built like a tank but I’m not going to war with it. Thanks for your two cents.

As I mentioned before, my best guess is that used prices of the ZP5 will slowly go back up now that the 50% off deal is over. Average seems to be around $2000 - $2200 during the deal, my guess is we'll see them go back to around $2300-$2400 range with a lot depending on condition and how new they are. If I were to put one of my ZP5's on the market, I'd probably start around $2300-$2400 and like with all my other optics begin to reduce price week after week until it sells. So just because you see a scope listed for $2400 doesn't mean you should pay that, demand will always determine whether or not a price is fair, sure, you will sometimes get the random person who doesn't know any better and they'll pay a higher price than most others, but more often than not, you will often see prices fall on scopes before someone grabs them (unless they are the latest hotness). A couple years ago it took me almost 2 months to sell my Schmidt Ultra Short, bought another last year with the latest (MSR2) reticle but hated the turrets so sold that one and it sold in 2 days, you just don't know.

 

[jakelly]

We shall see.....

You know who makes bad business decisions? Those who need to borrow to buy things that aren't necessities.

I absolutely agree. But that is likely over 80% of the market. My better guess would be 90%.

 

[lte82]

I absolutely agree. But that is likely over 80% of the market. My better guess would be 90%.

That’s scary... Why would you go into debt for a hobby?

 

[Scwalker83]

Instant gratification. Why do you finance a new car when a used one will do the same thing?

 

[jakelly]

To protect their margins, not the margins of possible resellers (or speculators) down the road.

MAP doesn’t protect their margins.

 

[Glassaholic]

That’s scary... Why would you go into debt for a hobby?

Because Millennials don't understand the concept of saving, heck probably most Gen X'ers don't either. We live in the world of the credit card, student loans and more. In my parents day they were taught to save for everything... cars, even homes.

 

[jakelly]

That’s scary... Why would you go into debt for a hobby?

Or stay in debt (which is more likely the case). You don’t think these guys all have their homes paid off do you?

 

[Scwalker83]

Home is a different matter due to the cost and wisely purchased should appreciate.

 

[lennyo3034]

I absolutely agree. But that is likely over 80% of the market. My better guess would be 90%.

Wait wait wait....people are financing guns and optics?

 

[jakelly]

Home is a different matter due to the cost and wisely purchased should appreciate.

If you buy a scope when you owe money on your home, it’s the same as borrowing against your home (at your mortgage rate) to buy a scope.

 

[SOAPdata]

I can sympathize with the fact you lost value.

But I would never have made the jump to "alpha" glass with out this minox sale.

I never saw the value. In a 2 mi. Look through someones scope on the range I was always thing... meh I'm fine.

The Minox deal changed that. It lowered the price point to a level that i was willing to spend. Now having alpha glass, I get it. I see the value of that extra $1500 over what I was using before.

It has made a convert out of me.

Also.... my second one just got delivered, like just this second. Got to go!

 

[Scwalker83]

I would venture to say a dwelling is a need, scope is a want. Few people are liquid enough to have 300k (modest home in most places) without borrowing.

 

[lte82]

NB4 someone mentions Dave Ramsey...

 

[Glassaholic]

NB4 someone mentions Dave Ramsey...

NB4 for us old timers? Had the same thought about Ramsey

 

[SOAPdata]

NB4 for us old timers? Had the same thought about Ramsey

In before

 

[Glassaholic]

In before

I feel so old ?