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5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
- Thread starter saojao
- Start date
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away.
And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armaheavy,
I see your down in Hampton Roads..Im on base at Little Creek.PM me for my number if you would like to meetup with us. </div></div>
Can I take eye-witness pics to post up here?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armaheavy,
I see your down in Hampton Roads..Im on base at Little Creek.PM me for my number if you would like to meetup with us. </div></div>
Can I take eye-witness pics to post up here?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away.</div></div>
Its posts like this that make me ask myself why I even update this thread...really?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away.</div></div>
Its posts like this that make me ask myself why I even update this thread...really?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Wow.. why are people hating on the guy for not posting pics of a developmental weapon? Granted I would probably have waited to go public with it's existence until all the correct patents were processed (I'm guessing this is the real reason behind the delay of public documentation) but we should be happy that the guy is sharing any information about potentially cutting edge ELR shooting technology.
I for one don't shoot anything further than the lowly .308 so I have no dog in this fight, nor do I have any practical plans to obtain anything along the lines of this new rifle but I sure hate to see pioneers in almost any field get this kind of response when attempting privately financed innovation.
Wow.. why are people hating on the guy for not posting pics of a developmental weapon? Granted I would probably have waited to go public with it's existence until all the correct patents were processed (I'm guessing this is the real reason behind the delay of public documentation) but we should be happy that the guy is sharing any information about potentially cutting edge ELR shooting technology.
I for one don't shoot anything further than the lowly .308 so I have no dog in this fight, nor do I have any practical plans to obtain anything along the lines of this new rifle but I sure hate to see pioneers in almost any field get this kind of response when attempting privately financed innovation.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away. </div></div>leave the guy to work his project out and stop being a tall poppy cutter -when he is ready he will release what he releases and until then Im interested .
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, the shooter will be visually identifying/distinguishing targets at 5000 yards, how? I'd think the mirage would be a motherfucker, magnification limitations aside.
And, sub-MOA at 5000 yards would be about 4 ft. That's a lot of error. And what if you're shooting at a "plane engine" or something at 5k, and there is a 10mph crosswind for the 2k - 4k part of the distance. You're fucked.
It looks like what we really need is a scope that is mirage free and will make all wind go away. </div></div>leave the guy to work his project out and stop being a tall poppy cutter -when he is ready he will release what he releases and until then Im interested .
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just thought I would update this post since it has been awhile. We have just received a Destructive Device exemption from the ATF, which makes this rifle a title 1 firearm. Also reworked the case, and received the reamers this week from PTG. More to come soon, as well as pics! </div></div>
AWESOME!
I can't wait to see how you're getting on. **** the haters!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just thought I would update this post since it has been awhile. We have just received a Destructive Device exemption from the ATF, which makes this rifle a title 1 firearm. Also reworked the case, and received the reamers this week from PTG. More to come soon, as well as pics! </div></div>
AWESOME!
I can't wait to see how you're getting on. **** the haters!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Don't mistake my poking and joking for a cheap shot.
As saojao can tell you I am behind this.
Also the reasons I can see for this are simple. If there are confirmed kills going past a mile and a half then why shouldn't there be one to go farther? It would be more than a stellar canidate for a fixed base defense in addition to the primary role as a AMR.
Was there this level of hate and disrespect for the Barrett M82, the Chey-Tac M200, and the AI AS50 when they were first introduced? Hasn't this site always encouraged pushing the boundaries with new technologies and sciences in relation?
Or should I just remind everyone of the animosity towards precision shooting in general?
Oh, and if you hate new technology that much then send me your scopes.
Don't mistake my poking and joking for a cheap shot.
As saojao can tell you I am behind this.
Also the reasons I can see for this are simple. If there are confirmed kills going past a mile and a half then why shouldn't there be one to go farther? It would be more than a stellar canidate for a fixed base defense in addition to the primary role as a AMR.
Was there this level of hate and disrespect for the Barrett M82, the Chey-Tac M200, and the AI AS50 when they were first introduced? Hasn't this site always encouraged pushing the boundaries with new technologies and sciences in relation?
Or should I just remind everyone of the animosity towards precision shooting in general?
Oh, and if you hate new technology that much then send me your scopes.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I'm not knocking the project at all. I think it's pretty badass. I'm just knocking the people who are all "let's sniper people at three miles with this bad boy." Is it a cool project? Sure. Would I want to shoot one? Sure. But as some are suggesting, is it going to be used to shoot people at longer ranges than they are being shot at now? No.
I'm not knocking the project at all. I think it's pretty badass. I'm just knocking the people who are all "let's sniper people at three miles with this bad boy." Is it a cool project? Sure. Would I want to shoot one? Sure. But as some are suggesting, is it going to be used to shoot people at longer ranges than they are being shot at now? No.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I find it interesting when you talk with some of the older veteran snipers that used to think 1000 yard shots impossible. Now, 1000 yards is not as big a deal. Just like in any sport, it is the people pushing the boundaries that will accelerate our sport while the nay sayers fade into existence.
I find it interesting when you talk with some of the older veteran snipers that used to think 1000 yard shots impossible. Now, 1000 yards is not as big a deal. Just like in any sport, it is the people pushing the boundaries that will accelerate our sport while the nay sayers fade into existence.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not knocking the project at all. I think it's pretty badass. I'm just knocking the people who are all "let's sniper people at three miles with this bad boy." Is it a cool project? Sure. Would I want to shoot one? Sure. But as some are suggesting, is it going to be used to shoot people at longer ranges than they are being shot at now? No. </div></div>
This round is Anti material(HTI)if people get in the way, well I guess it will indirectly be anti personnel. Anyone know how to post pics from an Android?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not knocking the project at all. I think it's pretty badass. I'm just knocking the people who are all "let's sniper people at three miles with this bad boy." Is it a cool project? Sure. Would I want to shoot one? Sure. But as some are suggesting, is it going to be used to shoot people at longer ranges than they are being shot at now? No. </div></div>
This round is Anti material(HTI)if people get in the way, well I guess it will indirectly be anti personnel. Anyone know how to post pics from an Android?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Make a picasa account and upload them onto picasa. PM me a link to your picasa album and I'll post them for you.
Or, just send me an email (see my profile) and I'll put them up in my picasa account and host them for you
Make a picasa account and upload them onto picasa. PM me a link to your picasa album and I'll post them for you.
Or, just send me an email (see my profile) and I'll put them up in my picasa account and host them for you
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I'm all for R&D, shit that's how the SR71 came to be.
Practical purpose? Probably not but you can always learn from stuff...
Learning is key.
Interested to see the final product and some ballistics numbers
I'm all for R&D, shit that's how the SR71 came to be.
Practical purpose? Probably not but you can always learn from stuff...
Learning is key.
Interested to see the final product and some ballistics numbers
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I skipped over a good 20% of the posts in this thread due to disinterest in BS but I look foreward to progress made with this project. Should be interesting to say the least when it's all said and done. Good luck
I skipped over a good 20% of the posts in this thread due to disinterest in BS but I look foreward to progress made with this project. Should be interesting to say the least when it's all said and done. Good luck
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Should have some pics of the new action for veryone soon. Waiting on Boots Obermyer to finish up on the new barrel! This is will be the second rifle built for this system, and the first for the updated cartridge.
Should have some pics of the new action for veryone soon. Waiting on Boots Obermyer to finish up on the new barrel! This is will be the second rifle built for this system, and the first for the updated cartridge.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
This all makes me mad I didn't buy TriggerFifty's barrel for my Windrunner. He had a nice .50BMG smoothbore for the SLAP round. Seems the whole accuracy problem was the sabot. Bet some form of harder delrin or bronze aluminum would have helped accuracy a bunch. Oh or maybe a squeeze bore!
This all makes me mad I didn't buy TriggerFifty's barrel for my Windrunner. He had a nice .50BMG smoothbore for the SLAP round. Seems the whole accuracy problem was the sabot. Bet some form of harder delrin or bronze aluminum would have helped accuracy a bunch. Oh or maybe a squeeze bore!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
In reading through these posts I am amazed at how many people are convinced this won't work or want to see pictures of the "Rig" as they call it. I'm going out on a limb here but it's seems to me that with some imagination I can picture it Um, a barrel maybe! and perhaps a trigger, and with any luck maybe they even fitted it with a rifle scope.. or perhaps they may have better luck with a telescope. I guess my point is, maybe some of you are missing the point.. The magic is in the bullet.
I for one plan to pay very close attention to the progress of this project as there may be a tool in this for my toolbox...
In reading through these posts I am amazed at how many people are convinced this won't work or want to see pictures of the "Rig" as they call it. I'm going out on a limb here but it's seems to me that with some imagination I can picture it Um, a barrel maybe! and perhaps a trigger, and with any luck maybe they even fitted it with a rifle scope.. or perhaps they may have better luck with a telescope. I guess my point is, maybe some of you are missing the point.. The magic is in the bullet.
I for one plan to pay very close attention to the progress of this project as there may be a tool in this for my toolbox...
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Some more info for those interested. Scott @ Valdata Optics went out of his way to get us one of their 12-52x56, scopes that many of you probably saw at SHOT. It has a 40mm tube, flurinated lens, 100 MOA elevation. I have looke at the US Optics SN9, but after dealing with Valdata, I HAD to try their scope! As far as this barrel, Boots Obermyer came on board, and is putting the final touches on this barrel. If you recal, the last barrel was a button rifled,and Im excited to have Boots work his magic on the new barrel.Let's see, I have also contacted Kyle @XLR rifle stocks for our custom inlet. I'm looking forward to having him do the stock. Please keep in mind this is the SECOND rifle. We already have been shooting the round and it works. As soon as the barrel is
done everything should come together very fast, and I will post video and pics. I. should also mention John Buhay at Ordinance Reasearch who has gone above and beyond on this project getting this thing together. He is one hell a
gunsmith!
Some more info for those interested. Scott @ Valdata Optics went out of his way to get us one of their 12-52x56, scopes that many of you probably saw at SHOT. It has a 40mm tube, flurinated lens, 100 MOA elevation. I have looke at the US Optics SN9, but after dealing with Valdata, I HAD to try their scope! As far as this barrel, Boots Obermyer came on board, and is putting the final touches on this barrel. If you recal, the last barrel was a button rifled,and Im excited to have Boots work his magic on the new barrel.Let's see, I have also contacted Kyle @XLR rifle stocks for our custom inlet. I'm looking forward to having him do the stock. Please keep in mind this is the SECOND rifle. We already have been shooting the round and it works. As soon as the barrel is
done everything should come together very fast, and I will post video and pics. I. should also mention John Buhay at Ordinance Reasearch who has gone above and beyond on this project getting this thing together. He is one hell a
gunsmith!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
You will probably be able to hear the round going overhead easily like an artillery shell as big as it is.
You will probably be able to hear the round going overhead easily like an artillery shell as big as it is.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
</div></div>
After you get everything worked out with the weapon system you need to go hook up with the robotics department at MIT, FN, Lockheed, or Raytheon, and make an air-droppable auto or remote controlled turret with thermal imaging and use it as an area denial system for open terrain.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
After you get everything worked out with the weapon system you need to go hook up with the robotics department at MIT, FN, Lockheed, or Raytheon, and make an air-droppable auto or remote controlled turret with thermal imaging and use it as an area denial system for open terrain.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Holy crap-ola. Put a .22 next to that thing and I bet it will make anyone feel small.
Holy crap-ola. Put a .22 next to that thing and I bet it will make anyone feel small.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Wholly gesus, thats an action now.
Can you take a picture with something like a 308win round next to it, or a tape measure, so we can see just how fing big it is.
Wholly gesus, thats an action now.
Can you take a picture with something like a 308win round next to it, or a tape measure, so we can see just how fing big it is.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Actually, I left the action with Ordinance Research so Mr. Buhay could put the barrel on as soon as Boots sends it to him...saves me the drive from D.C. to Lacaster again! The reamers behind the action are actually for the 14.5 SOP...I really need to take a pic of my Federal exemption as well,kind of interesting if you have never got one before....
Actually, I left the action with Ordinance Research so Mr. Buhay could put the barrel on as soon as Boots sends it to him...saves me the drive from D.C. to Lacaster again! The reamers behind the action are actually for the 14.5 SOP...I really need to take a pic of my Federal exemption as well,kind of interesting if you have never got one before....
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
What prompted you to seek an ATF exemption midway into testing, and what was the exact subject of the exemption?
What prompted you to seek an ATF exemption midway into testing, and what was the exact subject of the exemption?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Noel, I did the exemption because on the original case design transporting, and shipping the weapon was a pain. It's just alot easier on me and anyone who may have the rifle. I don't have to be there etc. In the eyes of the ATF it's just the same as any title 1 firearm. It also gives me the ability to sell to the general public as a non DD, which means you walk in fill out a 4473 and away you go.No 3+ months of paperwork or tax stamp. Not sure what you mean by subject of the exemption?
Noel, I did the exemption because on the original case design transporting, and shipping the weapon was a pain. It's just alot easier on me and anyone who may have the rifle. I don't have to be there etc. In the eyes of the ATF it's just the same as any title 1 firearm. It also gives me the ability to sell to the general public as a non DD, which means you walk in fill out a 4473 and away you go.No 3+ months of paperwork or tax stamp. Not sure what you mean by subject of the exemption?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
"Not sure what you mean by subject of the exemption."...
You answered the question... the case design was causing classifiication uncertainty.
Your initial contact indicated some concern with excessive drag on the projectile. Have you developed any range data that you are confident about?
"Not sure what you mean by subject of the exemption."...
You answered the question... the case design was causing classifiication uncertainty.
Your initial contact indicated some concern with excessive drag on the projectile. Have you developed any range data that you are confident about?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Saojao,
The title of this thread implies some actual ELR testing. Can you at least confirm that you have clocked these things flying in excess of Mach I at 5,000 yards?
As you might recall from our conversations, I was less concerned with a BC compromised by faulty design than general stability issues (in a bullet presented as publicly available for sale a number of pages ago). A minimum of one other participant has pointed out that the projectile is at the core of your system, and at approximately 6.7 calibers in length, this beast appears to have inherited the same flaws as the GS338/6.7 295 grainer that has now been suspended from the GS line-up.
While you have redesigned the case, you have also replaced the US Optics SN-9 scope, a wrapped barrel from ABS, and a Savage clone receiver from Louis Corkern. Your new barrel is coming directly from Obermeyer's shop, a new Savage-based receiver from Lancaster PA, and a new piece of glass from Valdata. The only component that has not been substituted is the commercially released GS projectile... which is where the entire story begins, and ends.
Might I make a suggestion?
Since it is your expectation to release your rifle for public consumption under the newly issued ATF exemption, why not include the 14.5 mm GS projectile in this Fall's range testing of commercially available 338 projectiles? While the original intent is to limit caliber, I am certain the organizer would make an exception for you. I do not expect this bullet to make the claimed range from any case, out of any twist-rate... even if Boots sent you one appropriate to caliber length.
While larger caliber bullets do provide a greater margine of design error, you really do not want to depend upon that, do you? We can easily go out to 5,000 yards, and give you accurate retained velocity data.
Saojao,
The title of this thread implies some actual ELR testing. Can you at least confirm that you have clocked these things flying in excess of Mach I at 5,000 yards?
As you might recall from our conversations, I was less concerned with a BC compromised by faulty design than general stability issues (in a bullet presented as publicly available for sale a number of pages ago). A minimum of one other participant has pointed out that the projectile is at the core of your system, and at approximately 6.7 calibers in length, this beast appears to have inherited the same flaws as the GS338/6.7 295 grainer that has now been suspended from the GS line-up.
While you have redesigned the case, you have also replaced the US Optics SN-9 scope, a wrapped barrel from ABS, and a Savage clone receiver from Louis Corkern. Your new barrel is coming directly from Obermeyer's shop, a new Savage-based receiver from Lancaster PA, and a new piece of glass from Valdata. The only component that has not been substituted is the commercially released GS projectile... which is where the entire story begins, and ends.
Might I make a suggestion?
Since it is your expectation to release your rifle for public consumption under the newly issued ATF exemption, why not include the 14.5 mm GS projectile in this Fall's range testing of commercially available 338 projectiles? While the original intent is to limit caliber, I am certain the organizer would make an exception for you. I do not expect this bullet to make the claimed range from any case, out of any twist-rate... even if Boots sent you one appropriate to caliber length.
While larger caliber bullets do provide a greater margine of design error, you really do not want to depend upon that, do you? We can easily go out to 5,000 yards, and give you accurate retained velocity data.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Noel, thanks for the suggestions. As I said I will release all data when the testing is complete. Selling to the public is just an option. The cartridge has a few other "stops" to make before we get to that point. There is a reason I have not released data.
Noel, another great part of my exmption means that your DD worries as far as making a projectile are now moot. If you would like, send me 10 projos of your design and I'll make sure I put them as far down range as you would like. Sound fair?
Noel, thanks for the suggestions. As I said I will release all data when the testing is complete. Selling to the public is just an option. The cartridge has a few other "stops" to make before we get to that point. There is a reason I have not released data.
Noel, another great part of my exmption means that your DD worries as far as making a projectile are now moot. If you would like, send me 10 projos of your design and I'll make sure I put them as far down range as you would like. Sound fair?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Saojao,
As stated in our telephone conversations, you send me a copy of the ATF waiver, and I will sell you bullets.
With patent protections in place, I will not even require an NDA.
What is the twist-rate that you are using?
Saojao,
As stated in our telephone conversations, you send me a copy of the ATF waiver, and I will sell you bullets.
With patent protections in place, I will not even require an NDA.
What is the twist-rate that you are using?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
PS,
I will require that you withold performance information until general public release this Fall.
PS,
I will require that you withold performance information until general public release this Fall.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Noel, give me a fax number... I will have it to you in the hour. Twist is 1:13... Just to clarify,When I spoke to you last winter, you were worried about making projos for a DD... I did not have my exemption at that point. I would love to shoot your projos shot for shot with GS Customs.
Noel, give me a fax number... I will have it to you in the hour. Twist is 1:13... Just to clarify,When I spoke to you last winter, you were worried about making projos for a DD... I did not have my exemption at that point. I would love to shoot your projos shot for shot with GS Customs.
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