When 6.5 creed was first introduced and gaining traction, I had someone tell me 260 Remington had larger bullets than 6.5 Creedmoor.
Nuff said.
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Hunting & Fishing 6.5 creed labeled “marginal”
- Thread starter rookie7
- Start date
Nuff said.
in my experience, the 308 definitely has more instant knock downs than the 6.5 creed if you’re hitting vitals. However, I feel infinitely more comfortable on my shot placement with my 6.5 as compared to the 308 and likewise go for head/neck shots now. no tracking or wasted meat.
As already mentioned, most people are completely unqualified to be out in the woods and shooting at anything. It is truly shocking and becomes more so the older I get. I killed my first 2 deer with my great grandfathers rem 700 BDL .222 Mag. Thing has killed over 500 deer, easily. My cousin killed another with it a few weeks ago. It’s all about shot placement.
As already mentioned, most people are completely unqualified to be out in the woods and shooting at anything. It is truly shocking and becomes more so the older I get. I killed my first 2 deer with my great grandfathers rem 700 BDL .222 Mag. Thing has killed over 500 deer, easily. My cousin killed another with it a few weeks ago. It’s all about shot placement.
The only thing wrong with the 6.5C is people who buy it and think it's magical death ray they can kill game with at absurd distances with limited ability. Reminds me of when the 300 Blackout was renamed... er.. introduced (cough), all the people who went on forums asking if it was a good choice for long range shooting. (um... did you even LOOK at it?)
"A man's got to know his limitations." My 6.5x57R seems to work quite well, poking along a fair bit slower than the 6.5C. Use the right bullet and know the distance limitations. I think using the right bullets probably plays a role in the problem too. People get draw into the idea of super sexy VLD bullets, hunting versions or not, because that's what they think they should be shooting. Need / have to shoot in it. When in reality there are better choices for what they are really going to do with it.
"A man's got to know his limitations." My 6.5x57R seems to work quite well, poking along a fair bit slower than the 6.5C. Use the right bullet and know the distance limitations. I think using the right bullets probably plays a role in the problem too. People get draw into the idea of super sexy VLD bullets, hunting versions or not, because that's what they think they should be shooting. Need / have to shoot in it. When in reality there are better choices for what they are really going to do with it.
I think bullet choice and construction is the thing that gets overlooked alot. I shot a 250lb hog with my 6.5 grendel, I was 60yards away and instantly dropped dead. I used factory hornady 123sst, my muzzle velocity is 2405fps.
I bet if I loaded that 123sst projectile in my .260rem closer to 3000fps I bet the hog would have ran due to the bullet not penetrating and coming apart. Bullet choice I feel is a largly overlooked ingredient in the hunting recipe.
I bet if I loaded that 123sst projectile in my .260rem closer to 3000fps I bet the hog would have ran due to the bullet not penetrating and coming apart. Bullet choice I feel is a largly overlooked ingredient in the hunting recipe.
I too bet they shot match bullets I have no idea the difference. Not in all cases but in many. Easy mistake to make for Bubba.
PB
PB
I hunt southeast deer right now which are not large. Double was .260 at 284m, buck was 2.3 at 315m. No chest thumping, it’s just easy to be accurate with the .264 projectiles IMHO. Also do 6.5 G and it works way better than 5.56 on hogs but not as good as .308. Counting off memory in the last three years we’ve taken 13 deer and a hand full of pigs with 123s or 130s, no complaints.
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Here ya go:
www.rokslide.com
6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....
Seeing that the 223 thread is such a success, I thought maybe I would start one for the Creedmoor/260. Seems like people are asking a lot about using them and various bullets, especially for elk. I've used mine for the last few years almost exclusively. I have some pics of bullet damage, albeit...
www.rokslide.com
I’ve only killed around 25 deer or so, but a few things I’ve picked up on in the last 30 years…..
My 7x57 didn’t exit with 175 SGK’s at 2500. First deer I ever shot with that load, and he was pretty big bodied.
Behind the shoulder, wrecked both rib cages and souped everything in between, but the hide caught the bullet, and the deer bled VERY little on the outside (he only ran 50 yards in an open field though). Blood trails are rarely needed on “good” shots.
20 years ago, when everyone else around here but me was packing a 7mm Mag, they were all shooting Winchester’s 140 ballistic tip load. I heard about a LOT of lost deer with that load that were shot “right in the shoulder”, I suspect it was a case of the bullet coming apart on a 50 yard shot.
Also, “behind the shoulder” on an animal perpendicular to your muzzle shouldn’t run over 100 yards. But with a deer quartering toward you, you will only catch the back half of one lung and the liver. Good for about a 300-400 yard run.
To sum up, bullet placement is everything, animal angle matters, bullet selection is important (if you want consistent exits, X-type bullets cut hide), and the last article I read in Outdoor Life that was worth reading was about 1992.
My 7x57 didn’t exit with 175 SGK’s at 2500. First deer I ever shot with that load, and he was pretty big bodied.
Behind the shoulder, wrecked both rib cages and souped everything in between, but the hide caught the bullet, and the deer bled VERY little on the outside (he only ran 50 yards in an open field though). Blood trails are rarely needed on “good” shots.
20 years ago, when everyone else around here but me was packing a 7mm Mag, they were all shooting Winchester’s 140 ballistic tip load. I heard about a LOT of lost deer with that load that were shot “right in the shoulder”, I suspect it was a case of the bullet coming apart on a 50 yard shot.
Also, “behind the shoulder” on an animal perpendicular to your muzzle shouldn’t run over 100 yards. But with a deer quartering toward you, you will only catch the back half of one lung and the liver. Good for about a 300-400 yard run.
To sum up, bullet placement is everything, animal angle matters, bullet selection is important (if you want consistent exits, X-type bullets cut hide), and the last article I read in Outdoor Life that was worth reading was about 1992.
JFC are you really quoting a thread from those dumbasses??Here ya go:
6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....
Seeing that the 223 thread is such a success, I thought maybe I would start one for the Creedmoor/260. Seems like people are asking a lot about using them and various bullets, especially for elk. I've used mine for the last few years almost exclusively. I have some pics of bullet damage, albeit...
Those tools are raving about how great the 223 is for moose and elk, no shit it'll kill but they mame even better
^^^^ What he said. Anything less than a 338 weatherby mag for a South Texas doe is marginal. I like to put the bullet just behind the last rib. You don’t even need to gut them… 
Welll ... it's a forum, so, yes, there's a mix of dumbasses, as well as very experienced extreme backcountry hunters. Also a fair bit of overlap between Slide and Hide members.JFC are you really quoting a thread from those dumbasses??
Those tools are raving about how great the 223 is for moose and elk, no shit it'll kill but they mame even better
The discussions (not in the thread I linked to) that cover 223, are not about 'the 223' in general, but tend to focus on 77 gr TMKs.
Back to this thread's topic, I linked the Rokslide thread, as it has a lot of detailed examples of 6.5 Creed use: distance, conditions, shot placement, and so on - in other words, a higher signal-to-noise ratio, with photos to document outcomes.
If you look at the shot placement in that article it isn‘t the best for a quartering to shot. It’s high so it didn’t leak blood. But let’s blame a cartridge for shot placement.
Iv’e been using 260rem since shortly after it was released and the 6.5C the last couple of years. I’ve used 100gr bullets to 140s from in your face 10 yards to 540 yards and haven’t had one issue with killing or blood trails.
Im one of those idiots in the Rokslide thread that also kills deer with a 223. SP, TSX and TMK Bullets. No problems with blood trails either. Shot a doe Thursday night at 310 yards with an 18” AR and a 77TMK. Blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. My daughter shot her buck at 227 yards with her 16” AR and 77 TMK. There was blood to follow for 35 yards to a dead deer. The doe I shot went less distance down the same trail.
I am doing it wrong I guess.
Iv’e been using 260rem since shortly after it was released and the 6.5C the last couple of years. I’ve used 100gr bullets to 140s from in your face 10 yards to 540 yards and haven’t had one issue with killing or blood trails.
Im one of those idiots in the Rokslide thread that also kills deer with a 223. SP, TSX and TMK Bullets. No problems with blood trails either. Shot a doe Thursday night at 310 yards with an 18” AR and a 77TMK. Blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. My daughter shot her buck at 227 yards with her 16” AR and 77 TMK. There was blood to follow for 35 yards to a dead deer. The doe I shot went less distance down the same trail.
I am doing it wrong I guess.
There’s literally nothing wrong with quality 223 for deer, especially if it allows a smaller/female shooter to make a very accurate shot.
Friend of my wife is a good hunter but she’s a terrible terrible shot. She has a lightweight 7mm-08 and the recoil and flinching is always causing her to do less than perfect shot (and the 6lbs factory savage trigger, what a pos). Mind you she always recover her deers but ... maybe she’d be better served with a 243 or a 223 with quality expanding bonded/ttsx ammo.
I almost hate to weigh in but...
I have been taking Texas deer since the 70s. I'm not any kind of big game hunter but I have taken probably 15 deer over the years. I have hunted with guys on a lease that have taken deer with multiple calibers, so I have seen the end results of many a harvest.
I personally own a 6.5 Creed but never taken a deer with it. I have shot a few hogs with the 6.5 Grendel and it is deadly enough.
Anyhow, my personal observation is that possibly the most successful caliber is the .270 Winchester. I base that on the number of animals and the distance traveled after the shot. ( possibly just a numbers thing )
If you compare the 6.5 Creed and the .270 Win. they are very close in performance, possibly a slight edge given to the .270 for cross section.
I wouldn't think the end result would differ very greatly
I have been taking Texas deer since the 70s. I'm not any kind of big game hunter but I have taken probably 15 deer over the years. I have hunted with guys on a lease that have taken deer with multiple calibers, so I have seen the end results of many a harvest.
I personally own a 6.5 Creed but never taken a deer with it. I have shot a few hogs with the 6.5 Grendel and it is deadly enough.
Anyhow, my personal observation is that possibly the most successful caliber is the .270 Winchester. I base that on the number of animals and the distance traveled after the shot. ( possibly just a numbers thing )
If you compare the 6.5 Creed and the .270 Win. they are very close in performance, possibly a slight edge given to the .270 for cross section.
I wouldn't think the end result would differ very greatly
I love it (Sarcasm Definitely Intended) when people say a 6.5 is minimal for deer, a 6mm is too light for deer. The 30/30 is too weak for deer. One can only wonder how many deer have fallen to the weak, undergunned .243 Winchester being fired out of a 22 inch barrel.
Anyway, don’t tell Brenda, she does not hunt very often but the two deer she killed when she was hunting with her .243, one dropped on the spot and the other left a blood trail a man (or woman) who literally was legally blind could follow.
If a round does not work or does not leave the blood trail desired I have two solutions.
1. Use the right bullet. Nosler Partitions work for me. Work great, bleed more and kill securely.
2. If problems still exist, its not the gun, Range Time You Need.
You can shoot a 20mm Vulcan or a 37mm spent Uranium Multi Barrel cannon to hunt deer but If You Can’t Hit Them, They Ain’t Gonna Die
Anyway, don’t tell Brenda, she does not hunt very often but the two deer she killed when she was hunting with her .243, one dropped on the spot and the other left a blood trail a man (or woman) who literally was legally blind could follow.
If a round does not work or does not leave the blood trail desired I have two solutions.
1. Use the right bullet. Nosler Partitions work for me. Work great, bleed more and kill securely.
2. If problems still exist, its not the gun, Range Time You Need.
You can shoot a 20mm Vulcan or a 37mm spent Uranium Multi Barrel cannon to hunt deer but If You Can’t Hit Them, They Ain’t Gonna Die
Deer are easy to kill
I'm talking about the tards who are using a 223 on moose and elk to prove a point, all they're proving is that they shouldn't be allowed to hunt.
Its up to each individual to determine their own personal level of skill, and know what the limitations of smaller cartridges are.
The problem is that a bunch of guys are literally trying to convince everyone that a 105 grain 6mm is just as effective on a bull at 700 yards as a 230 grain 30 cal.
They base everything on numbers not reality, and there are too many nieve/inexperienced people taking that shitty advice.
This is a bit off of the what can kill a deer subject, but it does revolve around the killing power of cartridges.
While I have dropped hogs with a .22LR and they hit the ground dead at the shot, It Was under slaughter house conditions.
Therefore I will say this, a 223 will kill a hog but go with something stouter. At least an AR 10 .308, a good BAR or Remington semi-auto or pump action in .30-06 would be better. Hogs in our part of this planet can get big, very big, and a wounded hog can and will kill you as dead as a mad mama grizzly can. I know, you may have good luck with your 6 or 6.5 but frankly when the hog charges with 6 inch razor tusks, you’ll really want some serious stopping power.
One night, my nephew emptied his .223 trying to stop a hog, it finally went down. Now he hog hunts with an AR10. Several years ago, we nearly lost my father-in-law to a sow,
its not worth the chance.
While I have dropped hogs with a .22LR and they hit the ground dead at the shot, It Was under slaughter house conditions.
Therefore I will say this, a 223 will kill a hog but go with something stouter. At least an AR 10 .308, a good BAR or Remington semi-auto or pump action in .30-06 would be better. Hogs in our part of this planet can get big, very big, and a wounded hog can and will kill you as dead as a mad mama grizzly can. I know, you may have good luck with your 6 or 6.5 but frankly when the hog charges with 6 inch razor tusks, you’ll really want some serious stopping power.
One night, my nephew emptied his .223 trying to stop a hog, it finally went down. Now he hog hunts with an AR10. Several years ago, we nearly lost my father-in-law to a sow,
its not worth the chance.
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Shot placement.
If you can't put a killing round into your target animal, change your position.
Nothing wrong with SST or ELDX, they are both good at what they are made for.
If you have to track a wounded animal through the bush, that's your fuck up.
And why the fuck haven't you chambered a follow up round, to end it?
The amount of times I've been with fucktards that profess themselves to be mighty hunters, and stare through their scopes at a still standing animal.
Then they are pissed when I drop it.
Hit it in the heart or brain.
Practice before going on a hunt.
Have a second round ready to go.
Often people are trying to shoot beyond their abilities.
It's a waste of ammo and time, and fucking cruel to the animal.
Leaving your rifle in the safe till hunting season...... you should be refining your skills, and learning the capabilities of your rifle and ammo.
The steel shooters are constantly practising their techniques and equipment.
Come rain or shine they get out there and test themselves.
Hunters should be doing the same.
I use my rifles on targets, far more than I do on ferals at the farm or other sites.
That pays off big time when it comes to hunting animals.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is not marginal.
It's the nut behind the butt of the rifle that fails.
If you can't put a killing round into your target animal, change your position.
Nothing wrong with SST or ELDX, they are both good at what they are made for.
If you have to track a wounded animal through the bush, that's your fuck up.
And why the fuck haven't you chambered a follow up round, to end it?
The amount of times I've been with fucktards that profess themselves to be mighty hunters, and stare through their scopes at a still standing animal.
Then they are pissed when I drop it.
Hit it in the heart or brain.
Practice before going on a hunt.
Have a second round ready to go.
Often people are trying to shoot beyond their abilities.
It's a waste of ammo and time, and fucking cruel to the animal.
Leaving your rifle in the safe till hunting season...... you should be refining your skills, and learning the capabilities of your rifle and ammo.
The steel shooters are constantly practising their techniques and equipment.
Come rain or shine they get out there and test themselves.
Hunters should be doing the same.
I use my rifles on targets, far more than I do on ferals at the farm or other sites.
That pays off big time when it comes to hunting animals.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is not marginal.
It's the nut behind the butt of the rifle that fails.
If I'm hunting hogs with a firearm I only take headshots, no exceptions, regardless to what cartridge I'm hunting with. We have some big uns round these parts too.
Went on a company deer hunt years ago and one of the standers managed to kill a 470 lb boar with buckshot.
We were all gathered round it back at the skinning shed when one of the guys spots what appeared to be a bullet stuck in the ole boys war shield, looked to be around 7mm/270 cal.
I've also killed them with a kabar when doing crop damage control at night or on draw hunts on WMA's where guns were verboten.
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I hunted the eastern side of the WA Cascades in the early 80's with some folks there that never missed a season. Mule deer shots were normally 175~250+ yards in the logging clear cuts. Spike deer ran 130-150 pounds. Smallest rifle cartridge I saw used there was a .270. Most used a 30-06. I used .308 handloads with Nosler 165gr green tips. No one ever "lost" a deer. They usually dropped where they stood.
Also hunted FL. In FL most deer are small enough and distances are inside 100 yards, so they can be killed with spit. I used a .243.
There is no magic formula, no magic bullet - just capable hunters using the right cartridge for the conditions.
Also hunted FL. In FL most deer are small enough and distances are inside 100 yards, so they can be killed with spit. I used a .243.
There is no magic formula, no magic bullet - just capable hunters using the right cartridge for the conditions.
I’ve been using my 6BR with 100gr interlocks running 2730fps the past year and everything I’ve shot to 200 yards hasn’t gone more than 10 feet. I generally shoot in the head so it passes through the base of the scull which helps but I was just out in lampasas hunting with some people and I was the only person we didn’t have to go looking for my deer.
Truth!
Im a fan of the 6.5, its a great caliber. I love 6mm also. My first deer rifle was a 243. Watched my dad kill a blacktail at 545 with it.
At distance it should have more energy then a 308. People have been killing elk with the 6.5CM and 6.5 PRC. There is no magic round, get a heart or double lung shot and its over. Hit them in the brisket and the round is “Marginal”.
Need to get my 264 Winchester Magnum out. Some of these new bullets would be amazing in it.
Being lousy shots is a part of the problem, but being even lousier trackers is a larger part of the problem.
I shot a hog tonight with my AR.
75gr Hornady Interlock. About half the weight of most bullets loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor ammo.
40 yards, quartering away. Shot low in the chest, bullet came out forward or the offside shoulder. She dropped in her tracks.
When I got to her ther was blood coming out of the exit hole and running onto the ground like a sink faucet.
I am super impressed. My whole life I've been told 223/5.56 is not suitable for anything bigger than coyotes.
Correct bullet choice and making a good shot count much more than what caliber.
I've shot small deer in the chest head on with 30-06 and she ran 30 yards. I shot a big sow sideways through the chest with a 243, she ran 50 yards.
Buddy has shot several hogs with a 6.5CM, 2 ran about 50 yards each, one dropped in its tracks.
Guess I'm rambling now, but you need to choose the right bullets and put them in the right spot.
75gr Hornady Interlock. About half the weight of most bullets loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor ammo.
40 yards, quartering away. Shot low in the chest, bullet came out forward or the offside shoulder. She dropped in her tracks.
When I got to her ther was blood coming out of the exit hole and running onto the ground like a sink faucet.
I am super impressed. My whole life I've been told 223/5.56 is not suitable for anything bigger than coyotes.
Correct bullet choice and making a good shot count much more than what caliber.
I've shot small deer in the chest head on with 30-06 and she ran 30 yards. I shot a big sow sideways through the chest with a 243, she ran 50 yards.
Buddy has shot several hogs with a 6.5CM, 2 ran about 50 yards each, one dropped in its tracks.
Guess I'm rambling now, but you need to choose the right bullets and put them in the right spot.
You all know what that article is really about? What if I said it has nothing to do with hunting, calibers, rifles, or 6.5 Creedmoor?
When I can’t read the article because pop-up ads and related click-bait ads are laced all throughout it, we know what we’re dealing with here.
This is nothing but click-bait generated by the editors because they’re probably losing viewership and ad revenue as a legacy media brand that can’t adapt to the changing world of information distribution and overall distrust among the latest 2-3 generations of readers.
What’s the best click-bait cartridge to pick on that has gained a lot of popularity lately?
If it had been any other cartridge that was popular, it would be that.
What’s the difference between marketing and sales? Sales knows they’re lying.
From the article:
When I can’t read the article because pop-up ads and related click-bait ads are laced all throughout it, we know what we’re dealing with here.
This is nothing but click-bait generated by the editors because they’re probably losing viewership and ad revenue as a legacy media brand that can’t adapt to the changing world of information distribution and overall distrust among the latest 2-3 generations of readers.
What’s the best click-bait cartridge to pick on that has gained a lot of popularity lately?
If it had been any other cartridge that was popular, it would be that.
What’s the difference between marketing and sales? Sales knows they’re lying.
From the article:
To add to your point, maybe not just the people buying it… but the slick marketing behind it. Hats off to Hornady for convincing the world that there was a huge hole in the shooting community that they could fill with a 6.5 cartridge…. Most casual shooter/hunters don’t know the history of the 6.5mm family and think the 6.5cm is the new thing. They truly believe that caliber will with an expensive box of factory ammo will make them marksman in the hunting field. Quote from one of my lease members…” them things touch at 50 yards”. Then we are helping look for deer that he can find…
I rank no where near the top of the heap of quality shooters on this forum but years of HP shooting with a an AR in223 when the M1A was the king taught me all about practice, practice, and more practice…. I’ve told some of the hunters who struggle with their shooting that for every hunting round I fire, I shoot roughly 100 practice rounds. (Not as many as I used to). That’s in the SE deer, hog,and coyote hunting. They look at me with a dumbass look thinking I’m the dumbass…. They struggle, then they buy a 6.5cm and tell me how great it is… I hunt with a 260 Remington!
I do like the 6.5cm because an acquaintance who was/is a Facebook hunter was missing and wounding deer…. He had a M700 in 7mm mag that couldn't hit crap. He sold it to me for $250. He went out and bought a 6.5cm…. I took about two weeks to clean the 7mag and skim bedded, and bedded the recoil lug. Shot some groups that were well under an inch. Showed them to him and he told me he never cleans his rifles…. I said I got another $250 for when his 6.5cm goes to crap….
Practice, shot placement, and more practice… it’s not the caliber….
I keep an old Turk Mauser that you could buy from shotgun news for 24.99 back in the day. It’s everything you don’t want in a rifle. To prove a point, I used some old 8mm Mauser surplus machine gun ammo that was hot as hell and took it hunting. The guys thought I was a fool telling me that thing can’t shoot. It did and I got a decent deer…. It’s my confidence builder when I start think it’s a riffle……
What will be the next best thing? 8.2397 Creedmoor magnum?
Every white tail I’ve hit with a 130g Barnes TSX or Berger VLD has dropped within 20ft with my 6:5CM.
Here’s a game-harvesting survey we did on the 6.5 Grendel over many years with detailed submission requirements for each animal harvested, with a far larger sample size data set, and a lot of projectile selection diversity. Look at the travel distances after shot impact. I did the math on it and it was pretty illustrative of the cartridge effectiveness. 88.3% of all the game from the survey dropped within 25yds.
440 DRT’d which is 70.4%
112 dropped within 25yds, 17.9%
47 dropped within 50yds, 7.5%
12 dropped within 75yds, 1.9%
8 dropped within 100yds, 1.3%
6 dropped outside of 100yds, 0.96%
625 total, 289 of those were deer, including Axis, Blacktail, Fallow, Mule Deer (22), Muntjac, Oryx, Red, Red Stag, Roe, Sika Buck, and Whitetail (178). Black bear (4), cow elk (2), and at least 1 moose were also killed. 196 hogs were recorded as well.
Knowing this kind of information, it again makes me look at the article in the OP and go back to my gut again, which is a legacy information distribution/ad-based model that isn’t trustworthy, and will continue to decline by doubling down on the same old attention-getting headline antics.
From a technical perspective, you would have to convince me that the more powerful 6.5CM shooting higher average bullet weights has the opposite effect as 6.5 Grendel on deer-sized game. It just doesn’t add up and isn’t believable.
440 DRT’d which is 70.4%
112 dropped within 25yds, 17.9%
47 dropped within 50yds, 7.5%
12 dropped within 75yds, 1.9%
8 dropped within 100yds, 1.3%
6 dropped outside of 100yds, 0.96%
625 total, 289 of those were deer, including Axis, Blacktail, Fallow, Mule Deer (22), Muntjac, Oryx, Red, Red Stag, Roe, Sika Buck, and Whitetail (178). Black bear (4), cow elk (2), and at least 1 moose were also killed. 196 hogs were recorded as well.
Knowing this kind of information, it again makes me look at the article in the OP and go back to my gut again, which is a legacy information distribution/ad-based model that isn’t trustworthy, and will continue to decline by doubling down on the same old attention-getting headline antics.
From a technical perspective, you would have to convince me that the more powerful 6.5CM shooting higher average bullet weights has the opposite effect as 6.5 Grendel on deer-sized game. It just doesn’t add up and isn’t believable.
Here’s a game-harvesting survey we did on the 6.5 Grendel over many years with detailed submission requirements for each animal harvested, with a far larger sample size data set, and a lot of projectile selection diversity. Look at the travel distances after shot impact. I did the math on it and it was pretty illustrative of the cartridge effectiveness. 88.3% of all the game from the survey dropped within 25yds.
440 DRT’d which is 70.4%
112 dropped within 25yds, 17.9%
47 dropped within 50yds, 7.5%
12 dropped within 75yds, 1.9%
8 dropped within 100yds, 1.3%
6 dropped outside of 100yds, 0.96%
625 total, 289 of those were deer, including Axis, Blacktail, Fallow, Mule Deer (22), Muntjac, Oryx, Red, Red Stag, Roe, Sika Buck, and Whitetail (178). Black bear (4), cow elk (2), and at least 1 moose were also killed. 196 hogs were recorded as well.
Knowing this kind of information, it again makes me look at the article in the OP and go back to my gut again, which is a legacy information distribution/ad-based model that isn’t trustworthy, and will continue to decline by doubling down on the same old attention-getting headline antics.
From a technical perspective, you would have to convince me that the more powerful 6.5CM shooting higher average bullet weights has the opposite effect as 6.5 Grendel on deer-sized game. It just doesn’t add up and isn’t believable.
Thank you for the detailed post. I also hunt with a Grendel, and it has performed well.
In your chart the 123 gr bullet accounts for the most game. Which one was used?
123gr SST was the most common in that weight, though there are some 123gr A-MAX and ELD-M as well. 83 of the whitetail were taken with 123gr SST. Here are the bullets used by weight and animal:
That was as of February, 2019. That includes 12” barrels and longer.
I seem to recall a video somewhere of a 50 being used to kill a doe with just it's shockwave...
Sometimes, I think folks are looking for a reason to feel relevant. The arguement could be made that that's why message boards exist at all...
At some point in history, it was probably accurate to state that the 30-30 Winchester had killed more white-tailed deer than any other cartridge. It had also wounded and had more deer lost after the shot than any other cartridge. Those two statements may remain true today.
The question becomes, so what? To extrapolate annecdotal experiences into forced conclusions is a poor excuse for making bad assumptions.
Sometimes, I think folks are looking for a reason to feel relevant. The arguement could be made that that's why message boards exist at all...
At some point in history, it was probably accurate to state that the 30-30 Winchester had killed more white-tailed deer than any other cartridge. It had also wounded and had more deer lost after the shot than any other cartridge. Those two statements may remain true today.
The question becomes, so what? To extrapolate annecdotal experiences into forced conclusions is a poor excuse for making bad assumptions.
That .50 BMG went right through the deer’s eye. The shockwave theory was disproven. I agree with and share your points about .30-30 Winchester. Whatever people are using a lot, there will be more mistakes made by those people in that sample set of data.
Here I was thinking I was going to get a laugh... I could have written the sarcasm better. The point being that overkill exists, the same as the label marginal does.
I liked the shockwave image though. Thanks. You've ruined it for me.
I have come to the conclusion that most gun writers are idiots and in someone’s pocket most of the time too.
I have shot whitetails and other similar sized deer species all over the world with 223, 243, 25-06, 6.5x55, 303, 30-06, 308, 30-30, 375 H&H and guess what, if you put the bullet where it’s supposed to go they don’t live long. The 6.5 creedmore should be more than capable as a deer round, never used one and honestly don’t have any interest in it. But the sheer level of fuckery coming from those idiot gun writers leaves a lot to be desired.
I have shot whitetails and other similar sized deer species all over the world with 223, 243, 25-06, 6.5x55, 303, 30-06, 308, 30-30, 375 H&H and guess what, if you put the bullet where it’s supposed to go they don’t live long. The 6.5 creedmore should be more than capable as a deer round, never used one and honestly don’t have any interest in it. But the sheer level of fuckery coming from those idiot gun writers leaves a lot to be desired.
Again the TLDR version is at the bottom.
I must be doing it wrong. I started with the typical 30-30 flat nosed 175gr.
I dressed out a few of those and saw where the internal organs were.
I had a brief and accidental association with 257 Roberts.
I do miss the rifle but for a time it was adequate and not much more than that.
I got introduced to .243 Winchester. Honestly it was a different kind of 257 Roberts.
I continued to dress out kills and found out where all the vitals were.
That poor sporterized 7x57 that I rescued, along with it's unmolested Mauser surplus action.
I continued to ...
Then a .270. If I have to explain , you don't have one.
So why not a 6.5 x 55? I've owned several service rifles including the M42B. 6.5 x 55 is a fine cartridge.
I still butcher my own kills.
I do not own a 6.5 CM or Grendel or BR or ...
I don't see why any reasonable sized projectile, properly and accurately placed can not down a deer or even an Elk. Seriously the 276 Rigby that W.B.M. Bell used was indistinguishable from a 7 x 57 Mauser.
For the uninitiated W,B,M. Bell hunted elephants with 7 x 57.
For the record I've filled tags with
.243
.257
.264 , 6.5 but no creedmoore , grendel, or wtfever
.277 .270
.308
.311-12 .303
8mm
.358, .357, 35 Remington
.44 percussion
.45 pistol
.45 rifle
.50 + black powder
So maybe I don't belong in this thread other than to say I was fortunate enough to be shown where the boiler works were and how to get to them with a variety of weapons and calibers.
Maybe that's the point. Know what you are trying to do and use the tool you have to do the best job you can.
TLDR: Training, experience, shot placement. I really don't think the caliber makes much difference.
I do think that modern projectile construction makes a difference. Just choose the right tool for the job.
[sarc] Unless you think you can shoot a bear in the eye with a varmint grenade and do the job [[/sarc]
I must be doing it wrong. I started with the typical 30-30 flat nosed 175gr.
I dressed out a few of those and saw where the internal organs were.
I had a brief and accidental association with 257 Roberts.
I do miss the rifle but for a time it was adequate and not much more than that.
I got introduced to .243 Winchester. Honestly it was a different kind of 257 Roberts.
I continued to dress out kills and found out where all the vitals were.
That poor sporterized 7x57 that I rescued, along with it's unmolested Mauser surplus action.
I continued to ...
Then a .270. If I have to explain , you don't have one.
So why not a 6.5 x 55? I've owned several service rifles including the M42B. 6.5 x 55 is a fine cartridge.
I still butcher my own kills.
I do not own a 6.5 CM or Grendel or BR or ...
I don't see why any reasonable sized projectile, properly and accurately placed can not down a deer or even an Elk. Seriously the 276 Rigby that W.B.M. Bell used was indistinguishable from a 7 x 57 Mauser.
For the uninitiated W,B,M. Bell hunted elephants with 7 x 57.
For the record I've filled tags with
.243
.257
.264 , 6.5 but no creedmoore , grendel, or wtfever
.277 .270
.308
.311-12 .303
8mm
.358, .357, 35 Remington
.44 percussion
.45 pistol
.45 rifle
.50 + black powder
So maybe I don't belong in this thread other than to say I was fortunate enough to be shown where the boiler works were and how to get to them with a variety of weapons and calibers.
Maybe that's the point. Know what you are trying to do and use the tool you have to do the best job you can.
TLDR: Training, experience, shot placement. I really don't think the caliber makes much difference.
I do think that modern projectile construction makes a difference. Just choose the right tool for the job.
[sarc] Unless you think you can shoot a bear in the eye with a varmint grenade and do the job [[/sarc]
I just want to add, the 123 grain SST works well at grendel velocities, but at creedmoor velocities, when the range is short, they don't work well at all. I do not have direct experience, however, a co-worker that harvests numerous deer a year went with the creedmoor this past season.123gr SST was the most common in that weight, though there are some 123gr A-MAX and ELD-M as well. 83 of the whitetail were taken with 123gr SST. Here are the bullets used by weight and animal:
That was as of February, 2019. That includes 12” barrels and longer.
He complained to me that he was having deer run off that had been hit well, he had to track them (they all did expire), there were no exits, I took a look at his ammo, it was SST's. He had some winchester power point ammo, I suggested he use that. he harvested several more deer that were DRT.
I believe, but have no evidence, that the construction of the SST leads to massive fragmentation at high velocities, which results in poor performance. They are fabulously accurate, but in the creedmoor, .260 and x55 rifles, probably better suited to speedgoats and such since the range is typically several hundred yards.
My buddy James and his son Jakob have killed more Polar Bears with a .243 than you will ever kill deer.
ookpiktours.ca
Ookpik Tours
How many is more?My buddy James and his son Jakob have killed more Polar Bears with a .243 than you will ever kill deer.
Ookpik Tours
I want to say, and maybe @LRRPF52 can confirm or deny, that the 123 SST was designed and intended to be used at the lower velocities Grendel is capable of. Speeding it up would (and apparently does) create performance more akin to a varmint grenade than a good medium game bullet. Your friends observations would seem to bear this out. Creedmoor is capable of vastly more speed at 123gr than Grendel ever hopes of generating.
I have used the 123 ELDMs to wonderful effect in Grendel, and the accuracy is better in my firearms than the SST. I don't care personally for the 123 SST, for all the reasons your friend reports. Has he tried the 123 ELDM? I recall many debates over whether the AMAX was a capable hunting bullet, this strikes me about the same.
The 6.5X55 has taken an awful lot of game around the world much heavier than the average deer, in places and conditions that 99% of Creedmoor shooters will never experience. I find the idea that the similar 6.5 Creed is anything less than capable to be rather ignorant. As in all calibers, the shooter is far more important than the projectile... What did the Creed do to piss off these writers, become more popular more quickly than they deign to be permissable? Laughable.
You know why our grandfathers shot deer with 30-30s and .243s and said they were great? Because they kill deer just fine and they are easy to shoot. People nowadays gripe that a rifle is “under powered” or “Marginal” because they get buck fever and shoot shit in the paunch and expect it to die immediately…when in actuality it could be several hours or days later because they made a terrible shot. Or they make a decent shot but they can’t track anything for more than 50 yards out of their direct line of sight and then bitch that it “ran off and never stopped” when in actuality it was likely dead within 25-50 yards of where they were standing. Do bullet failures happen? Yes, but not commonly. But guaranteed, if you shoot something through both lungs, through the heart, or transect it’s CNS it’s going to die. News flash, heart shot and lung shot deer, unless they drop instantaneously, can run for a couple minutes until their blood pressure drops to the point that their brain shuts off/they develop a pneumohemothorax that causes heart failure and prevents excursion of their diaphragm. An animal that can run 25mph can cover a decent amount of ground in that timeframe. Larger cartridges, unequivocally kill more emphatically and do provide leeway in shot placement. However, I have seen several lethally wounded deer run more than 100 yards after being shot with 300 win mags, 6.5 Creeds, bow and arrows etc. If you’re going to use a smaller cartridge you have to be much more discerning and exact with where you shoot something to have the effect that you want. You also have to be prepared to do a little tracking.
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He isn't a handloader and bought what he could. The Winchester load worked liked a champ. He's done for the year and, hopefully by the time the season rolls around, more ammo will be available..
That’s what I was going to ask next. The only SST factory load for 6.5CM I’m aware was the 129gr SST Superformance load, which would be going around 2820fps (since discontinued I think).
129gr SST in the Grendel is very well-behaved going through tissue within typical hunting distances. BC is actually higher on it per Litz analysis at .495 G1, which is the appropriate drag model to be used within 600yds. Lots of expansion and core weight retention for deep penetration and higher chances of exits.
The 129gr SST factory load was the only SST available for 6.5 Grendel for many years. People were shooting so many deer and hogs with 123gr A-MAX without much care for what it said on the box, that Hornady responded by making the 123gr SST for the Grendel so they could have a dedicated, affordable hunting bullet with the tip and interlock. We did a large group buy for 123gr SSTs to help with the initial tool-up for it.
Yeah, 123gr SST would behave more like a varmint bullet at 6.5 Creedmoor velocities. For the 6.5-08 class of cartridges used for hunting, if shooting more economical cup and core bullets that aren’t bonded, it makes sense to use a heavier bullet weight in the 140gr and up region to get that penetration, slow down the mv and impact speed on target to reduce fragmentation potential. There are several guides that found 140gr A-MAX to perform better than the other Hornady dedicated hunting bullets, and recommended their clients to shoot that bullet from 6.5CM.
If you want to shoot lighter hunting bullets at 6.5CM speeds, I would recommend bonded or monolithic bullets.
Swedish have been taking moose with the 6.5x55 (a virtual identical ballistic twin to the Creedmoor) longer than anyone on this forum has been alive, continue to do so and will probably being doing so long after everyone currently on this forum has passed away. I see no reason why, with the correct bullet and shot placement, a Creedmoor, or a .260 ccould not harvest game just as reliably.
I shoot a .25-05 and a .35 Whelen. Brenda shoots a .243 and a 35 Whelen. We have both killed deer very effectively. While I own two 6.5’s, both are PRS rifles that I have not taken to the woods, but I see no reason that they would not be jsut as effective as the .243 or the .25-06. (Both of which have many one shot kills)
Seriously, anyone who makes fun of another’s weapon, is probably suffering from their own self confidence issues.
Gun writers?? For decades I heard them pine over the Ruger X-RED grip. Oh the original grip was so, so, so much better. Apparently they have never shot a Colt SAA or a Ruger Blackhawk. I actually own one of the very first Ruger Blackhawk Flattops in .44 magnum. We also own quite a few Rugers with the new grip. Shooting heavy .45 and Heavy .44 Magnum loads are downright pleasant with the new grips. Shooting anything that has enough powder behind it to push a bullet out of the barrel in the revolver with the original grips (that the gunwriters so pine over) is No Fun.
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I shot several deer with a 6.5 Creed, they kill deer but they do it so well I sold it. Not marginal hits, shot a big coon that took one thru the boiler and tried to crawl off. I didn't lack for blood shooting Barnes but everything ran which is not normal shooting fast expanding copper bullets. My personal feeling has nothing to do with SD or BC but velocity. I just don't think it has enough, although a bud of mine at a recent gun show was told by an "expert" that the creed shoots flat to 1K. No need to hold over. He's still laughing. I turned the Creed into a Gap and the world changed for the better. Same bullet but 600 fps faster is a big deal.
