6.5 Creedmoor

[kvwpwr]

Im shooting a maten with a 22" Kreiger 8twist barrel

140 Berger target hybrids in hornady brass
42.0gr h4350
2.810
fed 210m

Velocity 2632fps

9.7mil to 1k

I've hit 8" plate 4/5 shots at 1k
First time, and only time shooting paper at 1k with this gun I shot 3 shots into 2.75" the other 2 shots opened the group up to 8"

 

[bartizzle]

I figured as much as this thread helped me, I would return the wealth. Thanks guys.

Due to the current lack of availability of components, I was pretty much forced to look at something other than the 142SMK that I had been shooting. The only thing that I could find that was suitable to me was the 130VLD Hunting bullet, so I took a gamble on it... and ended up ordering 1000 more after testing. The first two photos are load testing with the 130VLD and respective data, then followed by three normal groups for the 142SMK load that I had been shooting. I have plans to build a 6.5CM gas gun as well, so I'm happy with the performance of the 130 and the possibility of sharing a common powder/bullet/primer... not crazy about trying to keep the brass and dies separate, but I'll manage.

All brass was factory new, resized in Hornady MG bushing dies, .288" Redding TiN bushing (no expander), primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred, trimmed to .005 under max spec, lightly de-burred/chamfered, and loaded.

All are 5 shot groups @ 100 yards and included the cold bore round. (Cold bore was notorious for running 0.25-0.5moa high with the 142smk, no visible change with the 130) Plate and one official target were rotated for measurement.

GAP Custom
26" Bartlein 8.2" 5R
130gr VLD Hunting
43.5g H4350
Fed 210M
2.816 ogive
.045 Jump
2931 fps (SD in the double digits)
DA 1043ft
Temp: 55.6F




GAP Custom
26" Bartlein 8.2" 5R
130gr VLD Hunting
44.0g H4350
Fed 210M
2.816 ogive
.045 Jump
2956 fps (SD=7, ES=18)
DA 2045ft
Temp: 69F
Notes: Primers pictured were the two flattest of a total of 10, absolutely no ejector marks, sticky bolts, pierced primers, primer pockets still feel tight on reseating, etc.




All of the following are this same load:

GAP Custom
26" Bartlein 8.2" 5R
142gr SMK
40.5g H4350
Fed 210M
.065 Jump
2661 fps (SD=7)
DA 1043ft
Temp: 55.6F

 

[Skigolfmike]

This happened at the match this weekend.

Not sure why yet. May be a different powder lot, may be the brass was shot.

It was in the middle of a match and I went to a new box of ammo, recently loaded, and the 6th shot on the stage did the above. The other cases were partially split at the web and one of them had a blown primer. I load in lots of 50, so this was a whole lot. I don't know if it's because of a different powder lot or just worn out brass. The blown and flatten primers indicate over pressure. I took 5 cartridges apart and I check for signs of head separation in the loaded, un-fired pieces. They are fine.

I do know after about the 3rd reloading the brass is growing about .006"-.010" and I have also seen the web moving because the a primer pocket uniformer will cut in the primer pocket after every firing.

I'm thinking a different lot of powder. I have 1 bottle for a different lot that I was loading from, the everything else I have is from the same lot. I'm going to unload all those pieces in that box of 50 and check them all. I have other boxes of 50 and I will check those out too. Will probably have to do some test firings.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Took a paraplegic 8 year old named Colby deer hunting on our family farm yesterday for Mississippi's Youth season. His father brought him a .44 cal rifle. I grinned and said your boy is in for a treat. Pulled out my GA Crusader and the boys eyes LIT UP... Said
"I'm gonna be shooting that!!!???" I said that's up to you little man. So we practiced dry firing , safety ect... And he shot a 3/4" 5 shot group during target practice! I smiled and said he was ready.
He shot a doe at 123 yards with a 140 vld on top of 42.6 h4350. W
Something happened a little strange. Deer was perfectly broadside, made a PERFECT hot 2" behind and 2" above the shoulder. On the exit side ... bullet straight threw the GUTS. She ran about 80 yards and I followed guts on trees in order to find her. I wonder if the bullet hit a rib and ricocheted. The bullet exited about 8 to 9 inches to the right of where it hit on the other side . She was facing to our left.
It's possible she may have been quartering just a hair, but I was watching through my Steiners and she looked straight to me. As far as damage. It wasn't exactly what I was expecting. Wound channel was average and the TKO I was expecting didn't happen. Whereas I shot a pig with a 140 hybrid and it blew a hole in him I could have fit the whole rifle threw on the exit side.
Overall it was a great experience, especially when I pulled the deer into the field. The boy and dad both thought he had missed because she wheeled around and acted "normal ". I heard the bullet pop her and kept my mouth after he said" daddy I missed". I tod them to stay here and mark where it was standing. I kinda just disappeared and when I brought the doe out I thought he was gonna jump out of the stand. It was truly inspiring to see such a nice young man with challenges most of us couldn't possibly fathom. He never complained a bit and was truly a very positive person.
Colby practicing aiming in the stand

Colby, his father, Ashly, and my friend and local Game Warden Gilbert Barham just before we set off

 

[Rob01]

This happened at the match this weekend.

Not sure why yet. May be a different powder lot, may be the brass was shot.

It was in the middle of a match and I went to a new box of ammo, recently loaded, and the 6th shot on the stage did the above. The other cases were partially split at the web and one of them had a blown primer. I load in lots of 50, so this was a whole lot. I don't know if it's because of a different powder lot or just worn out brass. The blown and flatten primers indicate over pressure. I took 5 cartridges apart and I check for signs of head separation in the loaded, un-fired pieces. They are fine.

I do know after about the 3rd reloading the brass is growing about .006"-.010" and I have also seen the web moving because the a primer pocket uniformer will cut in the primer pocket after every firing.

I'm thinking a different lot of powder. I have 1 bottle for a different lot that I was loading from, the everything else I have is from the same lot. I'm going to unload all those pieces in that box of 50 and check them all. I have other boxes of 50 and I will check those out too. Will probably have to do some test firings.

Do you measure how much you are bumping the shoulders back? You need to watch that as if you are moving it more than .001-.002" then you are over working the brass during sizing and it will definitely lead to what you have. That's with any brass.

 

[Skigolfmike]

That's not it. it's the different powder lot. Had the same issue with brand new brass. Pics to follow.

 

[Rhyno]

[MENTION=43855]Aimsmall55[/MENTION] great story, and thanks for doing such a great service, I'm sure that kid and his dad will remember that day for the rest of their lives.

 

[Skigolfmike]

[MENTION=55795]Skigolfmike[/MENTION] great story, and thanks for doing such a great service, I'm sure that kid and his dad will remember that day for the rest of their lives.

You got me confused with Aimsmall. He deserves the credit for that story.

 

[Rhyno]

Yea I just noticed that, I scrolled to far when replying.

 

[Rob01]

A different powder lot won't cause case head separations. Might cause flat primers from more pressure but that is from oversizing your brass. Do you measure it?

 

[Skigolfmike]

Well, I got some thinning to do.

1. I'm sizing the brass just as I have for 1500 rounds with no problems until now. I size it by removing the firing pin and ejector and turning the die down until the bolt falls free.

2. The brass from the lot that separated passes the paperclip test.

3. The one thing that changed is the powder lot.



Top is the piece that separated.
Next is a piece of brass I reloaded at random from the above lot with a different lot of powder at 41.5 from another lot. - normal load is 42.6 with 140s.
3rd is a new piece of brass, 1st firing, loaded from the same lot first.
Last is a piece of brass on it's 2nd firing loaded from the same lot as the first

All of them have case head separation signs.

After I had the issue at the match I went back to an older batch of ammo (left over from the Grind) and it has not problems.

Next I'll put up pics showing the primers.

 

[Rob01]

It doesn't happen right away. After multiple loadings you are stretching the brass at the separation point by sizing it too much. Sizing down and then it stretches in your chamber, which might be a little long to exasperate the point. Is it a factory Creedmoor rife or custom?

If you don't measure how much you are sizing down then you need to start to see what you are doing. You can think it's the powder if you like but it's not.

 

[Skigolfmike]

These are the primers from ammo I've had no issue with.


These are the primers from the problem rounds


I think what I'm going to do at this point is start over with new brass and do load development and see where it ends up. If I have to I will cull all the brass in question. Checking the chamber now to make sure it's still ok.

 

[sobrbiker883]

I'm with Rob01 on this one, brass is either shot out or you are pushing it back too far.
You set your due to bump shoulder .001-.002 back from fired brass measured with a headspace comparator correct?

And why is this in the 6.5CM loads thread?

 

[Skigolfmike]

Probably because it's about 6.5 CM brass and loads.

 

[Skigolfmike]

It doesn't happen right away. After multiple loadings you are stretching the brass at the separation point by sizing it too much. Sizing down and then it stretches in your chamber, which might be a little long to exasperate the point. Is it a factory Creedmoor rife or custom?

If you don't measure how much you are sizing down then you need to start to see what you are doing. You can think it's the powder if you like but it's not.

I understand what you are saying and that makes sense. I'm just not sure that is happening. After 1500 rounds without problem 1 until now, with 7 - 8 reloads on some of the brass, the only thing that shanged is the powder.
I even saw signs of head separation on brand new brass - first firing that was loaded with that powder lot. (see the pic above)

That said. The rifle is a GAP Crusader 27" MTU barrel. It does have an FTE brake on it. I full length resize every firing and I set the die by removing the firing pin and ejector from the bolt and turning the die down incrementally until the bolt closes freely. I did just check this last night and it was a maybe a hair too tight so I'm not going to completely discount the possibility that the brass was sized too much, but I'm not discounting the possibility that the powder changed too. There are reports of picking up 80 fps on recent powder lots. That is a lot.

The factory 140 AMax load is 41.5 gr of H4350 (at least that is what it says on the box.) The reality is the ones we have pulled apart are loaded to 42.5 gr. I know the get powder in large lots and they test fire to and adjust the load to get the stated velocity out of their test barrel. 1 gr difference is a lot. It could be H4350 slowed down and now it faster again?

At this point, to be safe, I'm going to do load workups in brand new brass. I have 100 pieces. Plus I have about 200 fired pieces that checkout OK, so I may be able to save those. I might be able to pull the the bullets on the brass that is on it's 1st firing and reload with a reduced load to fire form. Kinda of hate going back to square one on this, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

 

[Rob01]

"A frequently expressed misconception about case head separations is that they result from excessive pressure. That is not correct. Pressure, of course, overcomes the strength of the brass case and causes the separation, but that will not happen unless and until the case has thinned excessively through the mechanism described above. Repeated cycles of case sizing with the resultant growth and thinning create the condition which allows normal pressure levels to separate the case at the thin spot. A new case would only separate in a rifle with grossly excessive headspace and one is not likely to encounter a professionally gunsmithed match rifle with that condition."

The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Case Head Separations

It's not pressure. You are causing it. Get the right tools to measure how much you are bumping the shoulder. Otherwise it will continue to happen. I can't keep posting the same thing over and over so this is my last post. Believe it or not.

 

[steveptr]

Is anyone using Norma 204 powder with 140s? Im trying to decide to keep hunting for 4350 or I have a line for 8lbs of 204 Ill be shooting a 139 senar

 

[thrusty]

[MENTION=55795]Skigolfmike[/MENTION]

Mike - these photos look familiar? The brass was given to me by a shooter that picked them up after you shot them. With the photos you have above and the 4 pieces I have in my possession, that tells me you were really pushing the envelope with ALL of your ammo. Your DOPE was spot on with this ammo....this also tells me this ammo didn't fail by accident...you created it.



You were lucky the extra ammo you brought didn't show pressure signs...you were lucky I didn't DQ you for potential safety concerns...you were lucky that something catastrophic didn't happen to your gun, you or any of the other 40 people standing around you - including myself...who was less than 5 feet from you spotting your shots.

Consider yourself schooled and warned.

 

[Skigolfmike]

FWIW, when that happened, I figured I was done. If the other RO had not been able to remove the rest of the case from the chamber, it would not have mattered at that point and I would have been done for sure. I was truly embarrassed that it happened and frankly I'm not about to porposely put my safety or anyone elses safety in question. It's not worth it and this will get fixed. Besides, I have too much money invested in the rifle to want to F it up by shooting a load that may damage the rifle, me or any bystander. If you wanted to DQ me, I would have understood and it would have been fine with me. The only difference if this was the other way around is I would have let it end there. I am trying to solve a problem here. If you're not part of the solution, ...

My dope with the rounds in question was not spot on, they were all over the place. My dope with the ammo I shot the first 4 and the last 2 stages was spot on. Only ammo in question was the ammo above that was from a different lot I loaded. Something in that lot has changed. I also found 2 other lots with issues on Sunday. All those rounds are getting pulled and the brass checked. If I have to throw away 150 cases, then so be it.

I've loaded over 1500 rounds for this rifle including the initial load testing and verification, and I can tell you up until the rounds in question I was running no where near max pressure. In the initial workups I got all the way to 43.0gr without a pressure sign one and I have cases I have shot 6-7 times so far with no problems. I settled on 42.6 as that was on an accuracy node and it was not pushing it. The bottom line is, something changed and the only thing I can really point to for sure is a different powder lot. Could it be over working the brass? Maybe. I marked where my full length sizing die was last night, backed it off and reset it by sizing a piece of fired brass with the firing pin and the ejector removed. When I got the die set where I wanted it, it was backed off a little from where it was before, so it is possible that it was set a little too tight and was creating too much head space.

Rob, using the method to set the die that that I described above will set the head space at .001-.002". We've checked with the tools you described after setting the die with that method. That method was taught to me by a world record benchrest shooter and it's worked just fine up until now. He had over 50 reloads on the brass he set the world record on using that method to set the die and they were full length resized after every firing. Anyway, the die is marked now so I will know if the ring moves, which is what I suspect may have happened.

What happens next is I'll load test rounds with the new unfired brass I have to recheck my load starting out conservative and working up. Rob, if you are correct, I should be about to work up to my old load with no problem signs. If it's the powder, then I won't get that far and I'll see pressure signs way before that. Like I said before, all the 140 amax factory loads were loaded 42.5 gr H4350 even though the box says 41.5 gr. Maybe ranges shouldn't let anyone shoot Hornaday 140 amax factory ammo in their 6.5 CM as that is pushing the load too hard.

 

[Kiba]

I think SkiGolfMike has used up all of his luck for the next several years. Between the imminent head separations, actual head separations, and the primer condition... wow.

Regarding H4350 lot variations... on my own rifles I have observed a 0.6gr difference between lots of H4350 to maintain velocity-- both lots tested out of the same rifle back to back on the same day using the same primers & bullets.

Let us know when you get it figured out.

 

[bartizzle]

[MENTION=55795]Skigolfmike[/MENTION]

My offer still stands for $1500 for the rig as she sits.

I'm kidding... maybe, get her fixed. Too many people and too nice of rig for risk.

Oh and for lot variations, I have noticed 1.0+gr differences on powder and also huge pressure differences on bullet.

 

[Skigolfmike]

[MENTION=41385]bartizzle[/MENTION]

I will get it figured out. You are correct - too nice a rig to screw it up and safety is always number 1.

Congrats on the good shooting Saturday.

 

[thrusty]

I'll offer $1550 for the rig...you can keep the ammo though.

 

[bartizzle]

Thank you. I'm sure you'll have it g2g by the spring matches, that's a long time to wait after only running my GAP twice this season.

[MENTION=41385]bartizzle[/MENTION]

I will get it figured out. You are correct - too nice a rig to screw it up and safety is always number 1.

Congrats on the good shooting Saturday.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

On the next stage I thought were going to see first hand the trajectory of an M24 contour with an FTE. It would give a whole new meaning to "hit it with a rock".

 

[JGorski]

[MENTION=41385]bartizzle[/MENTION]

I will get it figured out. You are correct - too nice a rig to screw it up and safety is always number 1.

Congrats on the good shooting Saturday.

What are you using for dies? Bushing or regular?

 

[Skigolfmike]

Redding 6.5 CM bushing die with the 288 bushing, no expander ball.

 

[Skigolfmike]

"A frequently expressed misconception about case head separations is that they result from excessive pressure. That is not correct. Pressure, of course, overcomes the strength of the brass case and causes the separation, but that will not happen unless and until the case has thinned excessively through the mechanism described above. Repeated cycles of case sizing with the resultant growth and thinning create the condition which allows normal pressure levels to separate the case at the thin spot. A new case would only separate in a rifle with grossly excessive headspace and one is not likely to encounter a professionally gunsmithed match rifle with that condition."

The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Case Head Separations

It's not pressure. You are causing it. Get the right tools to measure how much you are bumping the shoulder. Otherwise it will continue to happen. I can't keep posting the same thing over and over so this is my last post. Believe it or not.

I read that it's pretty good. One thing to note is the German Salazar has experienced this and had his own example cases to show. I particularly liked this at the end of the article.

The following note came from a friend who read the article.

German,


A good reminder of a loading fundamental often overlooked. If you have
not "lost your head" once or twice, you have not reloaded much.

Your article inspired the following poor words, with abject apologies to
Sir Walter Scott.


Breathes there shooter, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
I've shot this once too many times?
Whose barrel hath captur'd part the brass,
That stretching split and allow'd the gas,

To 'scape its prison and spark these rhymes?


Steve

In other words, if it hasn't happened to you yet, give it time, it will.

 

[Rob01]

In other words, if it hasn't happened to you yet, give it time, it will.

It doesn't have to if you use the right tools and precautions. You have the control in all aspects of handloading. If you use it then you will be fine.

 

[Boatpeople]

Question Has any one worked up any loads with the Barns 127grn LRX bullets? Looking to start working up a Hunting Load I emailed Barns to see if they had any published Data
Thanks

 

[justinbaker]

Question Has any one worked up any loads with the Barns 127grn LRX bullets?

I have a buddy shooting 41.5 of h4350

And got this data from longrangehunting, someone posted what barnes sent them.

But let me know what they send you. The 4350 max seems really low.

Barnes 127 gr LRX C.O.A.L 2.720 24" barrel Federal 210 Hornady brass
Hybrid 100v starting load 36.2 @ 2458
Hybrid 100v max load 41.8 @ 2808
-
H4350 starting load 33.7 @ 2388
H4350 max load 40.7 @ 2738
-
Superformance starting load 39.4 @ 2515
Superformance max load 45 @ 2865
-
RL-17 starting load 35.7 @ 2458
RL-17 max load 40.9 @ 2808

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

It doesn't have to if you use the right tools and precautions. You have the control in all aspects of handloading. If you use it then you will be fine.

Rob your wasting your time I am afraid. I specifically remember knight trying to explain this earlier this year to skiball. I didnt read everything as he is on my ignore list, but gathered enough through quotes.

In the idea of safety for everyone the only other suggestion I would have is re visit your annealing process maybe..

 

[Skigolfmike]

Seeing how you were mad me at because you left a lot of your stuff in my truck after PTS, I don't think your opinion carries much weight with me. You knew I was going to Hawaii for 2 weeks after the match, plus I went out of my way to get the stuff to you at TVP on my way back to Virginia after I got back. I did not see the Oakley glasses case with the spare lens until a week later. I offered to ship it back to you and you refused to give me an address to ship it too. YOU left your stuff in my truck. I asked if you had everything at PTS and TVP. If you want to blame anyone for that, look in the mirror.

You talked about how you wanted a new partner and how it would be awkward at meeting at TVP because you were trying out new partners. OK, I am fine with that, get a new partner. I don't care. You want to be a keyboard warrior fine. Again, I don't care. You can be a man or you can be an ass - up to you.

I still have the glasses case. I told my wife what happened and she said I should pitch them. If you want them back my offer still stands, PM an address, I will ship them, and you won't hear from me again. I'll give it another week and then I will pitch the case and the lens.

As far as talking to Knight, we discussed this reloading more than a few times - not sure what you are talking about WRT that. I sure as hell don't remember it.

 

[Skigolfmike]

This is new brass, first firing with the new lot of powder. It has signs of head separation. I included the primer to show it is mushroomed also. The primers in my other brass don't look like that. I'm not discounting the oversizing as a possibility, but it may have played a part. I think it's a combination of brass on the 5th or 6th firing, hotter powder lot, and possible oversizing issues. Will be checking some of my older brass, but I may just retire all of it and start over.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Here's a question for you guys. This is the brass from load testing last night. Which end is the high pressure end.

 

[Aimsmall55]

From this end, primers look good.. Don't see any swipes... Looks good to go.

 

[thrusty]

Last three on the right...

 

[peaceatwar]

Last three on the right...

The lighting is awful but if the were numbered 1-10 left to right. I would say that

#1 looks a little cratered
#3 looks a little flat
#7,8,9 look cratered.

 

[thrusty]

Firing pin impacts are more pronounced on #7-10 then the rest. That's all I can tell.... No real obvious signs.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Load progression is from right to left, hottest on the left.

 

[bartizzle]

Sounds right. I think the right side shows the radius of the primer more indicating less pressure. I also notice a difference specifically between 5-6. Was it 5 of each charge?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bartizzle]

Actually I think it case 4 that looks to be where they started flattening more. May be partially due to lighting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Skigolfmike]

The middle ones caught the flash. It's actually harder to tell than when they are in hand. It was .4 increments from 39.0 to 42.6. Should have went higher until I saw an ejector swipe, but I think I got all the info I need for now.

 

[rhildy77]

Has anyone used hybrid 100v with 140 vlds. Also thinking about trying BR2 primers as well any help would be thankful

 

[steveptr]

Anyone have data for 139 hbt with h4350 I can't find any data for a 139 bullet or should I just use 140data

 

[30mm]

Has anyone used hybrid 100v with 140 vlds. Also thinking about trying BR2 primers as well any help would be thankful

I do, here's my data:

24" Krieger 1:8 twist
Berger 140 VLD #26401
Hybrid 100 42.0 grains
COAL 3.178"
Powder Temp 75F
ThunderBeast 30 BA can
2836 FPS

26" Hart 1:8 twist
Berger 140 VLD #26401
Hybrid 100 42.0 grains
Powder Temp 75F
COAL 3.178"
2868 FPS

I put the same rounds in the refrigerator and took them to the range in a cooler surrounded by ice where I estimate the powder temp was about 35F and noticed a 50-60 FPS velocity DROP at the colder powder temp.

I have also run 42.8 grains of H100 which is fine in the cooler weather, but would not run as the temperature approaches 90 degrees.

H100 meters very well, but is certainly temp sensitive.

For comparison, using the same conditions with 42.5 of H4350 the velocities from the 24" and 26" barrels were 2770 FPS and 2829 FPS respectively and about 4 FPS drop with the same powder temp change.

 

[gau17]

Anyone have data for 139 hbt with h4350 I can't find any data for a 139 bullet or should I just use 140data

41.5-41.6 should put a smile on your face. Seated 2.80"

 

[woody76]

I hope this is the right place to ask this question. I just had a 6.5 creedmoor built for me. I am shooting hornady 120gr amax because that is all I find to buy by the case. Does anyone have a base line og drop out to 700 or 800 yards for this round? Also any windage info would help. I know all guns are diff. I just thought if I had a baseline to go of f of would help me ..

Thanks
Richard Wood
Southeast LA
9855074812

 

[LawnMM]

I hope this is the right place to ask this question. I just had a 6.5 creedmoor built for me. I am shooting hornady 120gr amax because that is all I find to buy by the case. Does anyone have a base line og drop out to 700 or 800 yards for this round? Also any windage info would help. I know all guns are diff. I just thought if I had a baseline to go of f of would help me ..

Thanks
Richard Wood
Southeast LA
9855074812

What is your muzzle velocity?

You don't have enough info to generate one, you need muzzle velocity and density altitude

When you have those, go to jbm ballistics, free online, and generate a chart