Borrowed some of my buddy’s 140gr ELDM’s, loaded up my standard load and boom, .8” group. I’ve burned about 80 of these Bergers and feel like I’m chasing a load that isn’t there. Just frustrating. Think I’ll just stick with what works.
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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
I was gonna ask (how many rounds through the barrel), but seems like you already found a solution.
If you are really wanting to run Bergers, I would try going up while watching for pressure, or go down ( 40.5 range )
Maybe i just got lucky, but I got good results with both bullets. Managed to get 0.5” five shot groups with the 140 Berger Hybrids with a very long jump, around 0.120”. Groups were only slightly better at a jump of 0.015”, perhaps 0.4”, but those rounds had to be single feed. [Needed more powder to stay at the same node with the bullet seated that long.]
I have three rifles that shoot well with bullets loaded to a very long jump, eye popping numbers. I also have one rifle that will not shoot anything well that is loaded into the lands. My impression is that the way the lands erode is not always perfectly symmetrical, and loading to a jam in such a situation can push the bullet skew.
But there is a second problem too: I don’t use high neck tension and i have seen that with ammo loaded to a jam, if you close the bolt and then eject the unfired round, and measure COAL or base to ogive, that you get different numbers. Scratch marks on only one side of the bullet. The camming power of the bolt is quite high, and will almost certainly reseat the bullet deeper, unless neck tension is intentionally very high. Soft seating sounds like a good idea, but it is not always the case. My experience is that the amount of “soft seating” varies in a worn barrel, and is not necessary consistent.
Shoots what works. No point in wasting barrel life! Training time is more valuable than load development time. And barrels are consumables.
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Just another comment about higher nodes producing different (and sometimes far better) results:
“If you are really wanting to run Bergers, I would try going up while watching for pressure...”
Yesterday i tried a different load in my MPA 6.5 BA, looking for a higher node. The chamber is throated for the 140 ELD-M bullet, and the user manual advised against using longer heavier bullets in this chamber, so decided to follow Masterpiece Arms’ bullet recommendation. [And they are cheap, compared to Berger and Hornady Atip, which is appreciated.]
Will refrain from publishing the load as the chamber appears to be min spec and freebore is short. I also picked a temperature sensitive powder, simply because i have it on hand. Not a powder i would recommend for any locality with large temperature changes between winter and summer. [I will have to vary powder charge as the Texas temps go up from 60 in early spring to 105 in late summer, and i realize this is not practical for most folks.]
Did a pressure test at 61 degrees F with one of the progressive powders in the Reloder product line which is known for delivering high speed, and eventually found pressure signs about 150 fps higher than what H4350 will deliver in this rifle.
Repeated the load 0.3 grains below max, and shot it yesterday at 400 yards at steel targets. Best 5 shot group was eyeballed at about 2”, typical result was 2.5” to 3” groups in a 13-15 mph wind. Could hit the little 3” plate every time, and had great fun! Very happy with that result (given my limited wind reading abilities) for a load that has not seen any detailed load development (looking for flat spots in the speed graph), or any attempt at positive compensation (PC) where barrel whip is exploited to look for a speed/powder region faster shots hit slightly lower on target.
ES was 22 and SD was around 6 fps, which for me is a much better than average result. Maybe i just got lucky, but the point i am trying to make is that sometimes there is a node higher (or lower) in the speed range that will work better, producing smaller groups. It is not guaranteed that a better ES will be observed, but if you get both useful PC and low enough ES to show up at a different node, you are in business. [I also know this high speed node and the unfriendly double base powder is going to reduce my barrel life. Might offset the money saved from using cheaper bullets, oh well! As always pros and cons.]
I shot a total of 25 rounds yesterday, barrel was cleaned, so cold bore shot was slow and it was deleted, leaving a total of 24. No other shots were deleted. I usually get SD numbers between 8-11 fps (sort of OK, but not great), and ES between 28 and 35 fps (too high for comp work) at the lower node.
Who knows if the change in powder was the main reason for the improvement, or the change to a higher node, but some experimentation (without burning out your barrel!) can be beneficial. Go look for those “other” nodes and see what they are willing to do for you...
“If you are really wanting to run Bergers, I would try going up while watching for pressure...”
Yesterday i tried a different load in my MPA 6.5 BA, looking for a higher node. The chamber is throated for the 140 ELD-M bullet, and the user manual advised against using longer heavier bullets in this chamber, so decided to follow Masterpiece Arms’ bullet recommendation. [And they are cheap, compared to Berger and Hornady Atip, which is appreciated.]
Will refrain from publishing the load as the chamber appears to be min spec and freebore is short. I also picked a temperature sensitive powder, simply because i have it on hand. Not a powder i would recommend for any locality with large temperature changes between winter and summer. [I will have to vary powder charge as the Texas temps go up from 60 in early spring to 105 in late summer, and i realize this is not practical for most folks.]
Did a pressure test at 61 degrees F with one of the progressive powders in the Reloder product line which is known for delivering high speed, and eventually found pressure signs about 150 fps higher than what H4350 will deliver in this rifle.
Repeated the load 0.3 grains below max, and shot it yesterday at 400 yards at steel targets. Best 5 shot group was eyeballed at about 2”, typical result was 2.5” to 3” groups in a 13-15 mph wind. Could hit the little 3” plate every time, and had great fun! Very happy with that result (given my limited wind reading abilities) for a load that has not seen any detailed load development (looking for flat spots in the speed graph), or any attempt at positive compensation (PC) where barrel whip is exploited to look for a speed/powder region faster shots hit slightly lower on target.
ES was 22 and SD was around 6 fps, which for me is a much better than average result. Maybe i just got lucky, but the point i am trying to make is that sometimes there is a node higher (or lower) in the speed range that will work better, producing smaller groups. It is not guaranteed that a better ES will be observed, but if you get both useful PC and low enough ES to show up at a different node, you are in business. [I also know this high speed node and the unfriendly double base powder is going to reduce my barrel life. Might offset the money saved from using cheaper bullets, oh well! As always pros and cons.]
I shot a total of 25 rounds yesterday, barrel was cleaned, so cold bore shot was slow and it was deleted, leaving a total of 24. No other shots were deleted. I usually get SD numbers between 8-11 fps (sort of OK, but not great), and ES between 28 and 35 fps (too high for comp work) at the lower node.
Who knows if the change in powder was the main reason for the improvement, or the change to a higher node, but some experimentation (without burning out your barrel!) can be beneficial. Go look for those “other” nodes and see what they are willing to do for you...
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Anyone have any data for a 17" barreled creed? Not looking for blistering speed just accuracy and consistency. Finally able to start shooting again and need to get out and get started.
Planning on using h4350 for power and starline SRP brass
Planning on using h4350 for power and starline SRP brass
I am getting 2705 with RL16, Peterson SRP brass, CCI450, and the 143 ELDX out of an 18" Bartlein suppressed. Got 2733 with the 140 Accubond and the same charge of RL16. You should be able to get close with H4350.
Sounds good. Planning on starting the load around 41 grains and work from there. Just don't want to start to high and cause issues
The Starline brass has more capacity than the Peterson that I use. You should be ok starting at 41. I ended up at 40.9 gr in my 28" Bartlein with the 140 ELDM. I am running 2830 fps with that load.
Just grabbed a chargemaster lite, so hoping to speed things up over the single trickle unit.
Finally nice enough to get out and shoot again.
What weight of projectile are you guys seeing to work better in a shorter barrel
Finally nice enough to get out and shoot again.
What weight of projectile are you guys seeing to work better in a shorter barrel
120's, you'd think, but my friend is shooting 143ELDX's at around 2650fps from an 18" Bartlein. Groups are about .6 to 600 yds with many better than that and with a minimal load work up. He's strictly set it up for shorter range (300 yds or less) hunting so no more load development for his purposes. Got me really thinking about a SB 6.5.
I loaded up some 143 hornady eldx and some 130 hornady eldm rounds. Charges were 41.0, 41.5, 42.0, 42.5 . Will see what happens.
Have to say that using a chargemaster lite makes loading rounds so much quicker and easier!
Now to wait for a decent day to go shoot. Sitting today at a lovely 65° but over 20 mph winds with gusts of over 35.
Have to say that using a chargemaster lite makes loading rounds so much quicker and easier!
Now to wait for a decent day to go shoot. Sitting today at a lovely 65° but over 20 mph winds with gusts of over 35.
Every day is a decent day, IMO to go shoot. I always realize my limitations when the wind is howling. One of these days my skills will improve, I’ll just keep trying.
6.5 Creedmoor
Federal Brass
CCI 200 Primer
41.5 gr H4350
144 Hyrbid loaded to 2.800 OAL
2740 FPS out of my JP LRP-07 22" barrel
BC trued spot on at 0.336 G7
Federal Brass
CCI 200 Primer
41.5 gr H4350
144 Hyrbid loaded to 2.800 OAL
2740 FPS out of my JP LRP-07 22" barrel
BC trued spot on at 0.336 G7
I shot some of my 47.8gr rl26 with the hornady 147 ELDm yesterday. This is all show from a PVA built ARC nucleus with a 26" barrel, with a griffin paladin 30 cal can. Average over 25 shots was 2985 with an ES of 22 and an SD of 7.6. Would obviously like to get those lower but it shoots as good or better than I'm capable of. .5" all day long at 100yds. I have yet to go to distance with it, but that velocity seems ridiculous, measured with a LabRadar so should be accurate.
Just to confirm: What caliber/chambering, and how long is the barrel?
BTW: I maxed out on the 153 Atip at about 2700 fps in a Savage 6.5 Creedmoor. Heavy bolt lift and flat primers at 2730 fps, at 88 degF. Lapua bras, CCI 450 primers. Used RL-17, because i have a lot of it sitting around. It usually gives me 150 fps more than H4350, but VERY temp sensitive, so a winter and summer load has to be developed, which wastes time components and barrel life. [Not recommending RL-17 as there are better options, like RL26.]
Plan to try RL26 soon.
6.5 Creemoor
26" barrel
Lapua brass
CCI #450
47.8gr RL26
147gr ELDm at 2.860"
This is thrown on Chargemaster 1500. The brass is hand annealed every other firing.
Thanks for the details sir. Had to double check. That is one impressive speed number.
I will try RL-26 soon. Looking forward to it!
Got my factory barreled action bergara hmr pro dialed in today!
6.5 CM
Hornady LP brass
Federal 210M primer
43.3 R16
Hornady 140g ELD
.04 off the lands, these bullets like to jump
30 shots
Ave 2830
SD 8
ES 26
6 groups of 5 shots had an ave of .57 moa
6.5 CM
Hornady LP brass
Federal 210M primer
43.3 R16
Hornady 140g ELD
.04 off the lands, these bullets like to jump
30 shots
Ave 2830
SD 8
ES 26
6 groups of 5 shots had an ave of .57 moa
Here is my 6.5CM load for a factory Sako Roughtech Range...
Brass: Lapua (SRP)
Bullet: Lapua 136gr Scenar-L
Primer: CCI BR4
Powder: Varget 37.2gr
Seating: .010" jump (ogive oal measurement: 2.281")
Barrel: 25" Factory Sako 1:8"
Velocity: 2723fps 10 shot Ave ES=9 SD=3.0
Environmentals: temp=+21c, R.H.=42% ASL=683m wind=n/a
This is a mild load showing only moderate velocity. I've stepped it out to 1100m, but unfortunately the limited scope spec's make it a difficult go beyond that. But I'm pleased because this is only a varmint rifle for me. But fun, none the less to experiment.
Brass: Lapua (SRP)
Bullet: Lapua 136gr Scenar-L
Primer: CCI BR4
Powder: Varget 37.2gr
Seating: .010" jump (ogive oal measurement: 2.281")
Barrel: 25" Factory Sako 1:8"
Velocity: 2723fps 10 shot Ave ES=9 SD=3.0
Environmentals: temp=+21c, R.H.=42% ASL=683m wind=n/a
This is a mild load showing only moderate velocity. I've stepped it out to 1100m, but unfortunately the limited scope spec's make it a difficult go beyond that. But I'm pleased because this is only a varmint rifle for me. But fun, none the less to experiment.
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I'm about to have my 24" 6.5x47 barrel reamed into a 6.5cm. I was getting 2776 with 36.8gr varget and 144gr berger. What should I expect going to cm? Using 140gr bergers
6.5 creedmoor
Savage 12FV
135 grain a-tip
42.7 grains of reloader 17
COAL- 2.875
average velocity of 5 shots - 2933.
lapua small rifle primer and CCI 400 primers.
didn’t get any pressure marks at all, going to see if I can get close to 3000 FPS.
shot at 200 yards.
I grew up there is why I ask.
There was a whole running thread on 6.5 staball. I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure thats what I used for testing.
Ya I searched it found one on here I loaded some starting at 42.5 thru thru 44.4 haven't been able to get out to dang.hot ty
Finilized a load for my MPA BA 65CM finally. I abandoned SW Precision (Varget) due to pressure issues with garbage FPS
140 ELDM BTO 2.165 (.030 jump)
41.1 H4350
F210M
1x Hornady
3 shots around .2
AVG 2825 FPS
SD 4.7
ES 9
I dint have a great node to play with but right at 41.1 the groups tighten up real nice and the numbers were fast enough with really low SD/ES so Im running it until my annealer and mandrel come in
140 ELDM BTO 2.165 (.030 jump)
41.1 H4350
F210M
1x Hornady
3 shots around .2
AVG 2825 FPS
SD 4.7
ES 9
I dint have a great node to play with but right at 41.1 the groups tighten up real nice and the numbers were fast enough with really low SD/ES so Im running it until my annealer and mandrel come in
How long of a barrel are you running to get 2825 out of 41.1 grains H4350. My experience with Hornady 6.5 brass is it runs a slower with an equal charge. My Hornady averages 53.5 gr H20. My Lapua averages 52.3 gr H20.
26" MPA (xcaliber) with "match chamber"
those numbers got me thinking too now that you mention it. the day I shot that string was 96* out. I shot a match over the weekend with that same load and the morning zero range sesh on a buddies lab radar showed 2808 so I ran that speed for the morning split....it was a balmy 45* that morning. I started to miss more during the day (as the temps got closer to 65) so I upped my speed a touch in my kestrel and but it didnt help much.
I just loaded another batch with that same recipe and going to launch them Thursday. we will see. My magneto speed has been checked twice against a lab radar and they are always been within 4 to 8 FPS from one another.
the hot day I did that load dev test I ran up to 42.1 grains and hit 2887 with a sticky bolt.... so I stopped there.
I havnt measured my brass volume yet... and who the hell knows.. im using a Lyman Gen6 so there could very well be 813 grains of powder in those tubes .. my V3 is on order
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Between that length and that temp I can see that kind of speed. I too find the Magnetospeed to be accurate just wish it wasn't a tuning device. I'm running 41.8 gr H4350 140 ELDm 205m @2778 80* 1300 elevation. There was another node at 42.5 but it wasn't as accurate. This is a 24" barrel.
may magspeed is mounted off the barrel so I have that going for me for impact results. I was assumed H4350 was temp stable but a 50* swing with an elevation shift I suppose that sort of change can be expected... ?????
Oh nice I haven't pulled the trigger on the stand off. Thinking about just going Labradar. H4350 is supposed to be temp stable and from what I've seen it is within reason. I know for sure that elevation and atmospherics play a big role in your dope. My zero shift between a density altitude of 1800 and 2600 is 1 MOA and from my notes it's about a 20 fps change. My velocity I stated earlier was not correct. Now that I'm looking in my notebook my velocity at DA 1800' was 2762 my velocity at DA 2600' (home) is 2746.
interesting. I havnt really paid much attention to the DA .. I will start recording that for when I travel for matches...
so your mid 2700 with more h4350 than me and your barrel is only 2 inches shorter. 2 inches isn't giving me close to 100fps gain. wonder what gives
2 inches should give somewhere around 60 fps change flat out. Other factors would be internal ballistics ( case capacity from different brass, case capacity differences from sizing operation, my lot of H4350 could be moderately slower than your lot, primer lots, etc.) Atmospheric difference, DA difference, elevation, this could go on forever. I'm not too sure what change elevation gives. I would imagine it's significant but density altitude is significant. The elevation difference between the two DA locations I listed is around 300' but where I live has a significantly higher average humidity so my DA goes up alot. I did a small batch ( 5 shots each) test with 210m primers and CCI 250 primers and my average velocity was 16 fps difference, my extreme high was 24 fps. Same lot brass ( unsorted Hornady). So one could argue if I had sorted the brass and took the high case weight ( smaller case volume ) cases for both my average could have been 24 fps. Say I went opposites, my average change could have been ~50 fps. Granted I wasn't really loading this test for precision, just slapped it together.
First time Lapua brass user.
Small primers and flashhole:
Is there anything I should consider about this?
Have only loaded Hornady brass in the 6.5 Creed so far, large primers and flashhole.
Can I just overtake those loads?
(As a side note: Man, is that Lapua sweet-looking or not?)
Small primers and flashhole:
Is there anything I should consider about this?
Have only loaded Hornady brass in the 6.5 Creed so far, large primers and flashhole.
Can I just overtake those loads?
(As a side note: Man, is that Lapua sweet-looking or not?)
Lapua is nice brass. I would not interchange your Hornady load to Lapua. It most likely won't blow up in your face but my Hornady Brass held and average of 53.5 grains H20 internal case volume and my Lapua holds and average 52.3 grains H20. Also you are dealing with different primers. I'd drop back a couple grains and work it up. I don't know of any instance you would want to just swap 1-1 on a load for any component change whether it be cartridge components or interfacing gun components.
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MPA has a min spec chamber, so less “chamber volume”. I get the same speed (2750 fps) in my MPA 6.5 BA with 1.3 grains less powder (H4350) compared to my Savage 12. Pressure signs show up about 1.5 grains earlier.
The extra 2” adds about 40-60 fps over a standard 24” barrel, depending on what powder you use.
The min spec chamber reamer was apparently chosen to ensure Hornady 140 ELDM match ammo shoots really well in this gun. And it does that. Meant for folks who want to compete in PRS or NRL with an off the rack rifle with factory ammo. In my case, factory Hornady ammo shoots really well, around 0.4” five shot groups or a little less at times.
Accurate rifle and fun to shoot. One side effect to take note of is that thicker brass like Alpha and Lapua does not always provide sufficient neck clearance. Pretty tight neck. I ended up neck turning my premium brass down to 12.1 thou (was at 14-15 thou before), to ensure a bullet will freely drop into EVERY case post firing.
Free bore is also short to ensure the 140 ELDM is seated at a small jump, so loading anything heavier than a 140/144 gn causes the bullet to intrude way too deep into the case, eating up case capacity and pushing pressures up. The manual also says not to shoot the 147 ELDM factory ammo. It will likely cause high pressures, and i have no intention of trying that.
Good rifle, very good ergonomic chassis, but really meant for one weight class of bullets only. With proper hand loading, you could of course develop a safe load for the very heavy 153/156 bullets, but the bullet will be seated past the donut area at the case/shoulder junction, so important to ensure the cases are donut free and loaded rounds have good concentricity.
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Case volume (how thick the brass is) has a big effect on speed (and pressure), in addition to chamber size:
Effect of case volume on 6.5 Creedmoor velocity - some experimental data
OK, have been wanting to run this experiment for a while, and finally found the time 2 weeks ago. Have been collecting range brass over the past 4 years and just kept it in a plastic bucket, never shot it since it is unsorted, different manufacturer, different batch and different weight. Would...
www.snipershide.com
This experiment looked at the correlation between case volume and case weight (it turned out to be surprisingly good), and how case weight/case volume affects speed, for large primer brass.
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thats some great info that I didnt receive with my rifle. that makes a lot of sense now. I just ran a load yesterday. 41 H4350 with Magnum Federal match primers and was able to get 1 hole on 3 shots at 2830avg. SD of 5.1 ES of 9 on 140ELDMs .030 off lands... 41 and 41.1 is money for my rifle and literally every other range of powder it opens up. no pressure problems other than flattened primers but that has happened as low as 39.8 with BR2, F210M and F215M primers so im not considering the primer flattening a pressure sign rather than a bolt face/premier seating/primer hole combo
Effect of case volume on 6.5 Creedmoor velocity - some experimental data
OK, have been wanting to run this experiment for a while, and finally found the time 2 weeks ago. Have been collecting range brass over the past 4 years and just kept it in a plastic bucket, never shot it since it is unsorted, different manufacturer, different batch and different weight. Would...
Inspired by your writeup in the other thread, I just measured weight and length of my Hornady, Norma and Lapua brass.
WTH!!!
Inspired by your writeup in the other thread, I just measured weight and length of my Hornady, Norma and Lapua brass.
WTH!!!
Exactly. For me, Hornady was the worst by far, Norma was a little better but not perfect, and Lapua / Alpha / Peterson were the best, and mostly equivalent, in my limited experience (have prepped maybe 500 pieces of brass so far - and they last pretty well).
[Not meaning to annoy those that get good results from (often free) Hornady brass, maybe i was just unlucky and got the bad batch. By all means keep doing what works!]
BTW: The only company that advertises that they weight sort their brass before they pack and ship it is Nosler (the Custom Competition variant). Gave me very good results (0.3 MOA), but rather expensive (also it is LRP brass), got about 12 reloads before the primer pockets opened up. Not bad, but i get 25 plus reloads out of Lapua SRP brass. Alpha and Peterson have yet to fail (around 10-15 reloads so far).
Lapua is cheaper per reload compard to Norma and Nosler LRP brass, because it’s life span is so much better, less than 5 US cents per reload for me. Round off error really, compared to premium bullets like Berger (50 cents). [I expect Alpha and Peterson to be very similar, but too early to say.]
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Inspired by your writeup in the other thread, I just measured weight and length of my Hornady, Norma and Lapua brass.
WTH!!!
Obvious i know, but remember to trim your brass before weight sorting them. Forgot to do that once and had to redo it... being in too much of a hurry.
I did trim them to the same length (where again Lapua was there right out of the box), chamfer them with a mandrel inside, turned the necks on the outside slightly (just to remove the burs at the mouth) before I weighted them.
Norma was actually very close to Lapua, being about 30% cheaper as Lapua I´m curious how they will perform.
Hornady was all over the place, unbelievebale.
I measured the weight of 20 of each brand.
Lapua´s biggest difference was 1,1gr. (0.67%), Norma was 2,1gr. (1.3%) and Hornady was 9,4gr. (6.3%), I was shocked.
Just thinking about this weight / volume difference when they are almost uniform on the outside, this might cause some reasonable pressure, and following of that, velocity jumps.
Including with different barrel frequences, trajectory heights, etc..
Norma was actually very close to Lapua, being about 30% cheaper as Lapua I´m curious how they will perform.
Hornady was all over the place, unbelievebale.
I measured the weight of 20 of each brand.
Lapua´s biggest difference was 1,1gr. (0.67%), Norma was 2,1gr. (1.3%) and Hornady was 9,4gr. (6.3%), I was shocked.
Just thinking about this weight / volume difference when they are almost uniform on the outside, this might cause some reasonable pressure, and following of that, velocity jumps.
Including with different barrel frequences, trajectory heights, etc..
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I guess I got lucky with my 200 pieces of Lapua. The whole lot only had 1.1 grain spread. Very consistent H20 volume too. Didn't bother with any of it on my Hornady because of past experience in a different caliber. Have 200 pieces of Alpha waiting on a barrel to show up so I'll have to see how those are.
