6.5 Creedmoor

#2,401
9sigman45 said:
Having some concerns with the initial load development with my new AIAX in 6.5CM and asking for opinions.

I'm experiencing faint pressure sings (ejector swipe) with new Lapua small primer brass on every charge I've tried. Did 50 rounds, five rounds each in 0.3 grain increments from 40.0 to 42.7 grains. Obvious accuracy nodes were between 40.3-40.6 and 42.4-42.7 but I'm concerned with the higher charges based on what I'm seeing. I loaded another 5 at 40.6 and ran across the chrono and they averaged only 2,417 fps with the 140gr Amax and that just plain sucks. Am I just paproid? Should I focus more in the 42.4gr area and just expect fewer loadings on the brass?

Here's a pic of the faint pressure sign, semicircle thought the "LA" in Lapua.
And a pic of my groups, 5 rounds at 100 yards (those labeled 41.4 & 41.7 are actually 42.4 & 42.7, I'm a moron).
Click to expand...

Well, after my edit, I went and grabbed my Hornady reloading manual. Max for H4350 is 41.5 / 2700 fps and Max for IMR 4451 is 41.3 / 2650 fps. Hodgdon says 40.0 compressed / 2660 fps on H4350 and 41.1 / 2670 fps on IMR 4451.

Bottom line, I think you've got an issue somewhere. Every barrel is different, of course, but there's no reason you should be seeing start load velocities (36 and 37 grains, respectively) with max charges unless you barrel is really short, your chronograph is busted, or there's something funky going on with your barrel/chamber.
 
#2,403
I don’t know about beyond worthless. Here they tell a story - there’s no reason he should be 200 fps off on the load data published by two different sources while pushing considerably more powder. It’s not so much about book max as a real or practical limitation so much as “hmm, why does a load close to book max produce the same velocity as book min… something is clearly not right here.”
 
#2,404
I did a bit more testing and loaded up to 42.5 grains of H4350. Here's the data, better but still not what I'm looking for:
AVG = 2,619
ES = 22
SD = 8.0

This was a 10 shot string fired as two 5 shot groups, both measuring around 0.625" @ 100 yards. Most of the cases looked good, but one had a significant swipe and by the chrono it was the extreme low round at 2,609. Go figure.

Now that I have the new brass fire formed to my chamber I think I'm goon try a different bullet, maybe the 147 ELD-M.
 
#2,407
Sub-optimal powders for 6.5 Creedmoor? Before you get out the pitchforks please hear me out.

A buddy is finishing up a new 6.5 Creedmoor build. I don't own a rifle in 6.5C, but I have a few cases I've found here and there on range trips and a few .264 bullets (I have bullets in weights 120, 123, 130, 140, and 147 available). I'd like to load up some ammo (I have dies) to use for sighters and foulers when the gun is all put together. The goal is just to get the rifle on paper at 100yds and then switch to "real" ammo. Not talking about pushing the envelop or going to 1k here, just 2 or 3 shots at 50yds and then 4 or 5 at 100yds. So I'm planning on loading up some starting load rounds.

The problem is, I only have 8208XBR, IMR4895 and IMR4320 powders available. I know that none of those are recommended powders, but it's all I've got lying around.

According to the Lee manual:

120 grain A-Max starting load is 35grn of IMR4895

for 130 grain bullets
Starting load 30.5grn of 8208XBR
Starting load 32.9grn of IMR4895

So... given those choices any thoughts or recommendations? IMR4895 is the slower of the two, so just go with that at 33grns and call it a day?

(please don't tell me to get H4350 or RL<whatever> that's not possible right now.)
 
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#2,408
If it's in the book then go for it. As per your use case, it'll be fine.



evilsemaj said:
Sub-optimal powders for 6.5 Creedmoor? Before you get out the pitchforks please hear me out.

A buddy is finishing up a new 6.5 Creedmoor build. I don't own a rifle in 6.5C, but I have a few cases I've found here and there on range trips and a few .264 bullets (I have bullets in weights 120, 123, 130, 140, and 147 available). I'd like to load up some ammo (I have dies) to use for sighters and fowlers when the gun is all put together. The goal is just to get the rifle on paper at 100yds and then switch to "real" ammo. Not talking about pushing the envelop or going to 1k here, just 2 or 3 shots at 50yds and then 4 or 5 at 100yds. So I'm planning on loading up some starting load rounds.

The problem is, I only have 8208XBR, IMR4895 and IMR4320 powders available. I know that none of those are recommended powders, but it's all I've got lying around.

According to the Lee manual

120 grain A-Max starting load is 35grn of IMR4895

for 130 grain bullets
Starting load 30.5grn of 8208XBR
Starting load 32.9grn of IMR4895

So... given those choices any thoughts or recommendations? IMR4895 is the slower of the two, so just go with that at 33grns and call it a day?

(please don't tell me to get H4350 or RL<whatever> that's not possible right now.)
Click to expand...
 
#2,410
I just loaded some IMR 4166 yesterday… had a new batch of brass and my “normal” powder charge didn’t even fit in the case. I figured I’d try something completely different. Is it optimal? Nope. Will it fire form brass and let me check jump/accuracy with the projectile in this rifle? Yup.
 
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#2,411
New Proof Steel Competition 26" Prefit:


cMk24Ri.png
 
#2,416
Hey guys im new to the group i just posted this question and dont see it nowhere so sorry if theres a duplicate somewhere. I do a bit of building but this time last year i bought a 22" 65Cm from aero completed the rest with a aero BCG CH 308 carbine buffer kit PRS stock and so on but the upper is still completely factory. Been having trouble with it cycling since day one. It cycles most factory ammo pretty good. I reload as well and having a hell of a time getting it to cycle handloads. Its short stroking and just destroys my brass. Im getting my data for every book and source known to man and even at max loads with many different powders and pills still short stroking but all the load data i can get is for bolt guns. The data works great for my bolt guns but im thinking the charge should be higher for an AR gas gun cause of the gas system and buffer vs a bolt gun where your going to hit higher pressures cause its a locked bolt verse having to cycle so im thing im lossing some of that needed pressure with the gas system. If anyone has any input or advice id really appreciate it. I dont know if i should go a step above max load or start another load using large rifle mag. Primers to get some extra back pressure. Thank guys
 
#2,417
Fighting the good fight said:
Hey guys im new to the group i just posted this question and dont see it nowhere so sorry if theres a duplicate somewhere. I do a bit of building but this time last year i bought a 22" 65Cm from aero completed the rest with a aero BCG CH 308 carbine buffer kit PRS stock and so on but the upper is still completely factory. Been having trouble with it cycling since day one. It cycles most factory ammo pretty good. I reload as well and having a hell of a time getting it to cycle handloads. Its short stroking and just destroys my brass. Im getting my data for every book and source known to man and even at max loads with many different powders and pills still short stroking but all the load data i can get is for bolt guns. The data works great for my bolt guns but im thinking the charge should be higher for an AR gas gun cause of the gas system and buffer vs a bolt gun where your going to hit higher pressures cause its a locked bolt verse having to cycle so im thing im lossing some of that needed pressure with the gas system. If anyone has any input or advice id really appreciate it. I dont know if i should go a step above max load or start another load using large rifle mag. Primers to get some extra back pressure. Thank guys
Click to expand...
I would first start off by changing the weight of your buffer then move on to an adjustable gas block. Also, do a pressure test.
 
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#2,418
S3th said:
I would first start off by changing the weight of your buffer then move on to an adjustable gas block. Also, do a pressure test.
Click to expand...
Im using the standard aero 308 carbine buffer kit and the only pressure test i can do is checking my brass and primers. Brass is flawless not even an ejector mark on them and primers are starting to flatten a little but not flat and thats just under max loads on many different powders and pills so the brass and primers is telling me i can go hotter. Same load with the bolt gun in 65 i cant go no hotter no pressure signs in brass but primers are flat but not crazy flat
 
#2,419
Fighting the good fight said:
Im using the standard aero 308 carbine buffer kit and the only pressure test i can do is checking my brass and primers. Brass is flawless not even an ejector mark on them and primers are starting to flatten a little but not flat and thats just under max loads on many different powders and pills so the brass and primers is telling me i can go hotter. Same load with the bolt gun in 65 i cant go no hotter no pressure signs in brass but primers are flat but not crazy flat
Click to expand...
It will either stove pipe or eject but bolt wont go back far enough to pick uo another round and sometimes when it does pick up another round it gets an offset feed and dont chamber so im wasting more ammo and brass then im shooting it feels like
 
#2,420
I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc
 
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#2,421
Doc68 said:
I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc
Click to expand...
Thank u for the data. Are you using a bolt gun or a gas gun. With my bolt gun i ve got a few loads im running with all the gr. Pills u mentioned using superformance win 760 and some others and getting great results. The 65 on the AR platform is giving me the issues. Its short stroking like its not getting enoght gas or pressure. All the data im using is for bolt guns so im thing im loosing some of the pressure i need for cycling by using the data from the bolt gun data
 
#2,422
Doc68 said:
I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc
Click to expand...
I just seen your using 450s so you have small primer pockets. Im using large primer pockets i was going to try to break it in some more as suggested and start working up a ladder using large mag. Primers. I see alot of people are switching to mag primers in small and large and just keep an eye for pressure signs
 
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#2,423
Fighting the good fight said:
Thank u for the data. Are you using a bolt gun or a gas gun. With my bolt gun i ve got a few loads im running with all the gr. Pills u mentioned using superformance win 760 and some others and getting great results. The 65 on the AR platform is giving me the issues. Its short stroking like its not getting enoght gas or pressure. All the data im using is for bolt guns so im thing im loosing some of the pressure i need for cycling by using the data from the bolt gun data
Click to expand...
Yeah bolt gun for my loads.

Doc
 
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#2,424
All the data i have from everywhere and book and site all show me bolt gun data. The only thing i can think of is that i may need to step it up a touch cause my loads run great in my bolt gun and primers are just starting to flatten a little but same load with the AR primers are perfect and not showing the same signs as the bolt gun. So for me just me that says im not getting the same pressure with the gas gun compaired to the bolt gun looking at the primers. The bolt gun the bolt is locked in place and the gas gun the bolt is able to and needs to come back so it can cycle and its not coming far enough back. Checked everything under the sun i can check. Its a bought completed upper so i dont know the port size
 
#2,425
DJL2 said:
Datum is 1.003" for my analog calipers.
147 ELD-M measured at: 3.188, 3.186, 3.1855, 3.186, 3.1845. Average of: 3.186 --> 2.1830"
140 BTHP measured at: 3.2045, 3.205, 3.204, 3.205, 3.203. Average of: 3.2043 --> 2.2013"
140 ELD-M measured at: 3.197, 3.197, 3.197, 3.198, 3.197, Average of: 3.1972 --> 2.1942"

ETA: damn it, did 147s by mistake... wait one... OK, fixed.

Measured five rounds of each, included the raw in case I fouled the math. The ten thousandths place was estimated as either a 0 or a .5, so effectively measured to the nearest .0005".

Odd note, had a 20" barrel out today. The 130 TMK H4350 loads I chrono'd at 2850 fps out of my 22" barrel chrono'd at 2775 fps from the 20". Struck me as a big drop, though it was colder today than when they were loaded (likely ~20-30 deg F). By comparison, the 140 Berger HT IMR4451 loads "plummeted" from 2675 to 2660 fps (22" to 20"). I suppose it could be a humidity issue, just wouldn't expect that to affect already loaded ammo.

Those 140 HTs are the most accurate thing I've loaded so far... and I hate it ;-).
Click to expand...
Are you off by an inch there? I don’t have 140 ELDM, but do have some factory 140 AMAX with the Hornady 26 comparator I am at 2.200 over 15 rounds. 400 comparator to case datum factory 1.531.

Was doing the datum because using this as baseline in a new build. Shoot this box over magnetospeed and go from there. 5 over chrono, then 3 groups without.

They are from the time period Hornady still put the load data. 41.5 H4350, Fed 210M Primer, CAl 2.801, box says 2700fps.
 
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#2,426
JsnSanko said:
Are you off by an inch there? I don’t have 140 ELDM, but do have some factory 140 AMAX with the Hornady 26 comparator I am at 2.200 over 15 rounds. 400 comparator to case datum factory 1.531.

Was doing the datum because using this as baseline in a new build. Shoot this box over magnetospeed and go from there. 5 over chrono, then 3 groups without.

They are from the time period Hornady still put the load data. 41.5 H4350, Fed 210M Primer, CAl 2.801, box says 2700fps.
Click to expand...
Read all the way to the right of each line.
 
#2,428
just browsing said:
Anyone shooting 135 A-Tips over 4350 or similar? Looking for approx. velocity.
Click to expand...
In my .260Rem I was getting 2746FPS out of a 26" barrel with 42.1grains of H4350 using Peterson Small Rifle Primer brass. It was just a starting load, I'm sure there's a lot more room to go up from there. I would imagine 6.5C would be similar.
 
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#2,434
Dogsniper said:
I picked this barrel up in trade
I’m getting half moa
Coal 2.83
1.20 to ogive
I have not done a seating depth test yet and to be honest. It shoots good enough I may not do one.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the response.
My Berger 130 VLDs out of the Proof also seem to be jump agnostic. Similar 3/8-1/2" groups with .030, .050, .080, and .120.
Mine was a bit slow at 2715fps when loaded with 41.8gr of H4350 but no pressure signs so I think I'll load up to a higher node.
YMMV, happy shooting.
 
#2,435
Dogsniper said:
I picked this barrel up in trade
I’m getting half moa
Coal 2.83
1.20 to ogive
I have not done a seating depth test yet and to be honest. It shoots good enough I may not do one.
Click to expand...

1.20" to the ogive? I've been trying to duplicate my results with Hornady 140g ELD Match ammunition, which has posted several 5 shot 7/8" groups at 300 yards with my RPR. On a bad day it will post 1" groups. What I found unusual is that the factory Hornady 140g cartridge bullet jumps 0.120" before engaging the lands.

I think that's a considerable bullet jump for such an accurate cartridge. Is long bullet jump unique to the 6.5 Creedmoor?

I can't get my reloads to do nearly as well and usually see groups around 2" at 300 yards.

Back to the drawing board.
 
#2,436
That's not an atypical jump. Lots of SAAMI chambers and factory spec ammunition are going to make a big jump - and many do so with fine accuracy. You could check out the Precision Rifle Blog - they do an article series on Jump and then branch out into an interview with Scott Satterlee with the Modern Day Sniper pod cast.

I didn't see accuracy start to come together with the 130 TMK I was loading until I jammed that thing about as far into the case as I could with the bearing surface still above the neck shoulder junction.

Oh... and go win some matches. Because if you're shooting a legit .25-.30 MOA at 300 yds you have a rifle that is Bench Rest accurate with the accuracy to win just about any shooting match your skills will let you compete in.
 
#2,438
1588 said:
1.20" to the ogive? I've been trying to duplicate my results with Hornady 140g ELD Match ammunition, which has posted several 5 shot 7/8" groups at 300 yards with my RPR. On a bad day it will post 1" groups. What I found unusual is that the factory Hornady 140g cartridge bullet jumps 0.120" before engaging the lands.

I think that's a considerable bullet jump for such an accurate cartridge. Is long bullet jump unique to the 6.5 Creedmoor?

I can't get my reloads to do nearly as well and usually see groups around 2" at 300 yards.

Back to the drawing board.
Click to expand...
I fixed typo
 
#2,439
DJL2 said:
That's not an atypical jump. Lots of SAAMI chambers and factory spec ammunition are going to make a big jump - and many do so with fine accuracy. You could check out the Precision Rifle Blog - they do an article series on Jump and then branch out into an interview with Scott Satterlee with the Modern Day Sniper pod cast.

I didn't see accuracy start to come together with the 130 TMK I was loading until I jammed that thing about as far into the case as I could with the bearing surface still above the neck shoulder junction.

Oh... and go win some matches. Because if you're shooting a legit .25-.30 MOA at 300 yds you have a rifle that is Bench Rest accurate with the accuracy to win just about any shooting match your skills will let you compete in.
Click to expand...
I could not believe the accuracy of the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge. I spent a lot of hours at the reloading bench developing .308 Winchester 168g loads that would shoot just under MOA groups at 300 yards. My 175g loads shot slightly over MOA.

Thanks for the leads. I'll check out the Precision Rifle Blog and Scott Satterlee for help. I shot High Power Rifle and competed with handguns for years and I think we got away with a lot on the reloading bench that won't wash when shooting over 600 yards. I am new to F Class shooting and have a great deal to learn about proper load development.
 
#2,441
I was playing with 153 bergers this weekend.

Lands were around 2.966
OAL: 2.935
Lapua Brass
BR4
H4350.

Ladder test from 39.8 to 41.6 No real preasure signs or heavy bolt even at the upper end where I know its around 66K PSI. Was shooting in 35* weather so that helps.

Going to settle on a 40.8 and start playing with seating depth. Got 2650 out of a 23" barrel.
 
#2,442
Screwgunner said:
Well I just picked up some superformance because I do not see it on here. Will do a ladder test with hornady 130 grain eld match. Will post results. Gun is a stelth.
Click to expand...
I was running superformance this weekend on under some 130 eld m and love it it. Ive always loved superformance from the time i first tried it with some 123 eld m and some other stuff but thiss weekend them 130s and that powder were unbelievable
 
#2,443
Fighting the good fight said:
I was running superformance this weekend on under some 130 eld m and love it it. Ive always loved superformance from the time i first tried it with some 123 eld m and some other stuff but thiss weekend them 130s and that powder were unbelievable
Click to expand...
Im still testing a few powders like varget witch actually sucked but im going to do some more experimenting with it and some more as well but hybird 100 V shot good h4350 always does imr 4350 and RL 26 were awsome this weekend was using 123 eld m 130 eld m 140 eld m 140 sst 147 eld m under all those powders with various ladders and primers cause i was having some cycling issues with the AR 10 6.5 CM but got everything worked out now. Alot of shooting this weekend with all the listed powders and charges straight out of the hornady book same with coal. Best shooting was the 130s with superformance with LR BR primers and hybird with 210m
 
#2,450
ghostrider_OneOne said:
I've noticed many top shooters going with SRP but can anyone tell me why. I'm a math and physics guy. I like numbers.....
Click to expand...
Slightly better SD/ES (I believe), however, if you currently have LRP brass w/ LRP there is no real reason to switch. If you are starting new, it is recommended to go SRP. Scott Satterlee confirmed that SRP is better but continues to use (or did) LRP for his 6CM as he was tooled/inventory for it.
 
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