6.5 Creedmoor

[DJL2]

Having some concerns with the initial load development with my new AIAX in 6.5CM and asking for opinions.

I'm experiencing faint pressure sings (ejector swipe) with new Lapua small primer brass on every charge I've tried. Did 50 rounds, five rounds each in 0.3 grain increments from 40.0 to 42.7 grains. Obvious accuracy nodes were between 40.3-40.6 and 42.4-42.7 but I'm concerned with the higher charges based on what I'm seeing. I loaded another 5 at 40.6 and ran across the chrono and they averaged only 2,417 fps with the 140gr Amax and that just plain sucks. Am I just paproid? Should I focus more in the 42.4gr area and just expect fewer loadings on the brass?

Here's a pic of the faint pressure sign, semicircle thought the "LA" in Lapua.
And a pic of my groups, 5 rounds at 100 yards (those labeled 41.4 & 41.7 are actually 42.4 & 42.7, I'm a moron).

Well, after my edit, I went and grabbed my Hornady reloading manual. Max for H4350 is 41.5 / 2700 fps and Max for IMR 4451 is 41.3 / 2650 fps. Hodgdon says 40.0 compressed / 2660 fps on H4350 and 41.1 / 2670 fps on IMR 4451.

Bottom line, I think you've got an issue somewhere. Every barrel is different, of course, but there's no reason you should be seeing start load velocities (36 and 37 grains, respectively) with max charges unless you barrel is really short, your chronograph is busted, or there's something funky going on with your barrel/chamber.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Max loads from reloading manuals are beyond worthless. They are so underpowered due to liability, they are more starting loads than anything else. Even moreso when using quality brass like Lapua, Alpha, Peterson ect.

 

[DJL2]

I don’t know about beyond worthless. Here they tell a story - there’s no reason he should be 200 fps off on the load data published by two different sources while pushing considerably more powder. It’s not so much about book max as a real or practical limitation so much as “hmm, why does a load close to book max produce the same velocity as book min… something is clearly not right here.”

 

[9sigman45]

I did a bit more testing and loaded up to 42.5 grains of H4350. Here's the data, better but still not what I'm looking for:
AVG = 2,619
ES = 22
SD = 8.0

This was a 10 shot string fired as two 5 shot groups, both measuring around 0.625" @ 100 yards. Most of the cases looked good, but one had a significant swipe and by the chrono it was the extreme low round at 2,609. Go figure.

Now that I have the new brass fire formed to my chamber I think I'm goon try a different bullet, maybe the 147 ELD-M.

 

[huntnh]

How far are you jumping them?

 

[9sigman45]

How far are you jumping them?

0.010"

 

[evilsemaj]

Sub-optimal powders for 6.5 Creedmoor? Before you get out the pitchforks please hear me out.

A buddy is finishing up a new 6.5 Creedmoor build. I don't own a rifle in 6.5C, but I have a few cases I've found here and there on range trips and a few .264 bullets (I have bullets in weights 120, 123, 130, 140, and 147 available). I'd like to load up some ammo (I have dies) to use for sighters and foulers when the gun is all put together. The goal is just to get the rifle on paper at 100yds and then switch to "real" ammo. Not talking about pushing the envelop or going to 1k here, just 2 or 3 shots at 50yds and then 4 or 5 at 100yds. So I'm planning on loading up some starting load rounds.

The problem is, I only have 8208XBR, IMR4895 and IMR4320 powders available. I know that none of those are recommended powders, but it's all I've got lying around.

According to the Lee manual:

120 grain A-Max starting load is 35grn of IMR4895

for 130 grain bullets
Starting load 30.5grn of 8208XBR
Starting load 32.9grn of IMR4895

So... given those choices any thoughts or recommendations? IMR4895 is the slower of the two, so just go with that at 33grns and call it a day?

(please don't tell me to get H4350 or RL<whatever> that's not possible right now.)

 

[BuLLet]

If it's in the book then go for it. As per your use case, it'll be fine.

Sub-optimal powders for 6.5 Creedmoor? Before you get out the pitchforks please hear me out.

A buddy is finishing up a new 6.5 Creedmoor build. I don't own a rifle in 6.5C, but I have a few cases I've found here and there on range trips and a few .264 bullets (I have bullets in weights 120, 123, 130, 140, and 147 available). I'd like to load up some ammo (I have dies) to use for sighters and fowlers when the gun is all put together. The goal is just to get the rifle on paper at 100yds and then switch to "real" ammo. Not talking about pushing the envelop or going to 1k here, just 2 or 3 shots at 50yds and then 4 or 5 at 100yds. So I'm planning on loading up some starting load rounds.

The problem is, I only have 8208XBR, IMR4895 and IMR4320 powders available. I know that none of those are recommended powders, but it's all I've got lying around.

According to the Lee manual

120 grain A-Max starting load is 35grn of IMR4895

for 130 grain bullets
Starting load 30.5grn of 8208XBR
Starting load 32.9grn of IMR4895

So... given those choices any thoughts or recommendations? IMR4895 is the slower of the two, so just go with that at 33grns and call it a day?

(please don't tell me to get H4350 or RL<whatever> that's not possible right now.)

 

[evilsemaj]

If it's in the book then go for it. As per your use case, it'll be fine.

Haha, okay. I appreciate the response & sanity check! I literally have less than 20 cases so I figure those will be good to get it started and then we can switch to ammo he has.

 

[DJL2]

I just loaded some IMR 4166 yesterday… had a new batch of brass and my “normal” powder charge didn’t even fit in the case. I figured I’d try something completely different. Is it optimal? Nope. Will it fire form brass and let me check jump/accuracy with the projectile in this rifle? Yup.

 

[S3th]

New Proof Steel Competition 26" Prefit:

 

[Dogsniper]

16” carbon 6
1-7
147 eld
47 rl26
2696 fps suppressed
Edit: Hornady brass
Fed 210m

 

[Lunchbox27]

16” carbon 6
1-7
147 eld
47 rl26
2696 fps suppressed

Solid speed for a shorty and that bullet!

 

[Dogsniper]

Solid speed for a shorty and that bullet!

Should speed up as well. Only have 50 rounds on it

 

[DJL2]

Yeah, that’s smoking!
My 38 grains of IMR 4166 behind a 130 ELD-M netted me 2745 fps from a 20 inch barrel. That was virgin Lapua and I couldn’t get a respectable amount of IMR 4451 in the case.

 

[Fighting the good fight]

Hey guys im new to the group i just posted this question and dont see it nowhere so sorry if theres a duplicate somewhere. I do a bit of building but this time last year i bought a 22" 65Cm from aero completed the rest with a aero BCG CH 308 carbine buffer kit PRS stock and so on but the upper is still completely factory. Been having trouble with it cycling since day one. It cycles most factory ammo pretty good. I reload as well and having a hell of a time getting it to cycle handloads. Its short stroking and just destroys my brass. Im getting my data for every book and source known to man and even at max loads with many different powders and pills still short stroking but all the load data i can get is for bolt guns. The data works great for my bolt guns but im thinking the charge should be higher for an AR gas gun cause of the gas system and buffer vs a bolt gun where your going to hit higher pressures cause its a locked bolt verse having to cycle so im thing im lossing some of that needed pressure with the gas system. If anyone has any input or advice id really appreciate it. I dont know if i should go a step above max load or start another load using large rifle mag. Primers to get some extra back pressure. Thank guys

 

[S3th]

Hey guys im new to the group i just posted this question and dont see it nowhere so sorry if theres a duplicate somewhere. I do a bit of building but this time last year i bought a 22" 65Cm from aero completed the rest with a aero BCG CH 308 carbine buffer kit PRS stock and so on but the upper is still completely factory. Been having trouble with it cycling since day one. It cycles most factory ammo pretty good. I reload as well and having a hell of a time getting it to cycle handloads. Its short stroking and just destroys my brass. Im getting my data for every book and source known to man and even at max loads with many different powders and pills still short stroking but all the load data i can get is for bolt guns. The data works great for my bolt guns but im thinking the charge should be higher for an AR gas gun cause of the gas system and buffer vs a bolt gun where your going to hit higher pressures cause its a locked bolt verse having to cycle so im thing im lossing some of that needed pressure with the gas system. If anyone has any input or advice id really appreciate it. I dont know if i should go a step above max load or start another load using large rifle mag. Primers to get some extra back pressure. Thank guys

I would first start off by changing the weight of your buffer then move on to an adjustable gas block. Also, do a pressure test.

 

[Fighting the good fight]

I would first start off by changing the weight of your buffer then move on to an adjustable gas block. Also, do a pressure test.

Im using the standard aero 308 carbine buffer kit and the only pressure test i can do is checking my brass and primers. Brass is flawless not even an ejector mark on them and primers are starting to flatten a little but not flat and thats just under max loads on many different powders and pills so the brass and primers is telling me i can go hotter. Same load with the bolt gun in 65 i cant go no hotter no pressure signs in brass but primers are flat but not crazy flat

 

[Fighting the good fight]

Im using the standard aero 308 carbine buffer kit and the only pressure test i can do is checking my brass and primers. Brass is flawless not even an ejector mark on them and primers are starting to flatten a little but not flat and thats just under max loads on many different powders and pills so the brass and primers is telling me i can go hotter. Same load with the bolt gun in 65 i cant go no hotter no pressure signs in brass but primers are flat but not crazy flat

It will either stove pipe or eject but bolt wont go back far enough to pick uo another round and sometimes when it does pick up another round it gets an offset feed and dont chamber so im wasting more ammo and brass then im shooting it feels like

 

[Doc68]

I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc

 

[Fighting the good fight]

I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc

Thank u for the data. Are you using a bolt gun or a gas gun. With my bolt gun i ve got a few loads im running with all the gr. Pills u mentioned using superformance win 760 and some others and getting great results. The 65 on the AR platform is giving me the issues. Its short stroking like its not getting enoght gas or pressure. All the data im using is for bolt guns so im thing im loosing some of the pressure i need for cycling by using the data from the bolt gun data

 

[Fighting the good fight]

I've been using shooters world precision in 6.5 creed.

It is very comparable to Vargets burn rate. I've been using that for 123gr ELD-M, SST and 120gr match burners. Amazing SD of like 4.5. Using CCI 450 and lapua brass. Loading all 3 bullets 30 thousands off lands. 1/2 MOA all day amd some even 1/3 MOA.

I've been using staball for 130gr on up with same brass amd primers.

My begara loves the 130gr Norma Golden Bullets. All in the same hole with 45.2gr. Bullet seated 15 thousands off lands.

Doc

I just seen your using 450s so you have small primer pockets. Im using large primer pockets i was going to try to break it in some more as suggested and start working up a ladder using large mag. Primers. I see alot of people are switching to mag primers in small and large and just keep an eye for pressure signs

 

[Doc68]

Thank u for the data. Are you using a bolt gun or a gas gun. With my bolt gun i ve got a few loads im running with all the gr. Pills u mentioned using superformance win 760 and some others and getting great results. The 65 on the AR platform is giving me the issues. Its short stroking like its not getting enoght gas or pressure. All the data im using is for bolt guns so im thing im loosing some of the pressure i need for cycling by using the data from the bolt gun data

Yeah bolt gun for my loads.

Doc

 

[Fighting the good fight]

All the data i have from everywhere and book and site all show me bolt gun data. The only thing i can think of is that i may need to step it up a touch cause my loads run great in my bolt gun and primers are just starting to flatten a little but same load with the AR primers are perfect and not showing the same signs as the bolt gun. So for me just me that says im not getting the same pressure with the gas gun compaired to the bolt gun looking at the primers. The bolt gun the bolt is locked in place and the gas gun the bolt is able to and needs to come back so it can cycle and its not coming far enough back. Checked everything under the sun i can check. Its a bought completed upper so i dont know the port size

 

[JsnSanko]

Datum is 1.003" for my analog calipers.
147 ELD-M measured at: 3.188, 3.186, 3.1855, 3.186, 3.1845. Average of: 3.186 --> 2.1830"
140 BTHP measured at: 3.2045, 3.205, 3.204, 3.205, 3.203. Average of: 3.2043 --> 2.2013"
140 ELD-M measured at: 3.197, 3.197, 3.197, 3.198, 3.197, Average of: 3.1972 --> 2.1942"

ETA: damn it, did 147s by mistake... wait one... OK, fixed.

Measured five rounds of each, included the raw in case I fouled the math. The ten thousandths place was estimated as either a 0 or a .5, so effectively measured to the nearest .0005".

Odd note, had a 20" barrel out today. The 130 TMK H4350 loads I chrono'd at 2850 fps out of my 22" barrel chrono'd at 2775 fps from the 20". Struck me as a big drop, though it was colder today than when they were loaded (likely ~20-30 deg F). By comparison, the 140 Berger HT IMR4451 loads "plummeted" from 2675 to 2660 fps (22" to 20"). I suppose it could be a humidity issue, just wouldn't expect that to affect already loaded ammo.

Those 140 HTs are the most accurate thing I've loaded so far... and I hate it ;-).

Are you off by an inch there? I don’t have 140 ELDM, but do have some factory 140 AMAX with the Hornady 26 comparator I am at 2.200 over 15 rounds. 400 comparator to case datum factory 1.531.

Was doing the datum because using this as baseline in a new build. Shoot this box over magnetospeed and go from there. 5 over chrono, then 3 groups without.

They are from the time period Hornady still put the load data. 41.5 H4350, Fed 210M Primer, CAl 2.801, box says 2700fps.

 

[DJL2]

Are you off by an inch there? I don’t have 140 ELDM, but do have some factory 140 AMAX with the Hornady 26 comparator I am at 2.200 over 15 rounds. 400 comparator to case datum factory 1.531.

Was doing the datum because using this as baseline in a new build. Shoot this box over magnetospeed and go from there. 5 over chrono, then 3 groups without.

They are from the time period Hornady still put the load data. 41.5 H4350, Fed 210M Primer, CAl 2.801, box says 2700fps.

Read all the way to the right of each line.

 

[just browsing]

Anyone shooting 135 A-Tips over 4350 or similar? Looking for approx. velocity.

 

[evilsemaj]

Anyone shooting 135 A-Tips over 4350 or similar? Looking for approx. velocity.

In my .260Rem I was getting 2746FPS out of a 26" barrel with 42.1grains of H4350 using Peterson Small Rifle Primer brass. It was just a starting load, I'm sure there's a lot more room to go up from there. I would imagine 6.5C would be similar.

 

[abn31c]

Anyone shooting 135 A-Tips over 4350 or similar? Looking for approx. velocity.

2860 with 42.0 h4350, Lapua srp brass
24" atx.

 

[just browsing]

2860 with 42.0 h4350, Lapua srp brass
24" atx.

Looking for my ATX as well so that’s perfect. Thanks for the info.

 

[Dogsniper]

26” proof cc suppressed 1-8
47 gr. Rl26
147 eld
Hornady and fed 210m
35degees
2963 fps

Berger 140 hybrid
42 h4350
2784 fps

910 rounds on the barrel now

 

[Mr. Wolf]

26” proof cc suppressed 1-8
47 gr. Rl26
147 eld
Hornady and fed 210m
35degees
2963 fps

Berger 140 hybrid
42 h4350
2784 fps

910 rounds on the barrel now

How far off the lands are your loads?
Would you mind sharing CBTO/OAL?
How accurate/precise are they?
Thank you kindly,

 

[Dogsniper]

How far off the lands are your loads?
Would you mind sharing CBTO/OAL?
How accurate/precise are they?
Thank you kindly,

I picked this barrel up in trade
I’m getting half moa
Coal 2.83
2.20 to ogive
I have not done a seating depth test yet and to be honest. It shoots good enough I may not do one.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

I picked this barrel up in trade
I’m getting half moa
Coal 2.83
1.20 to ogive
I have not done a seating depth test yet and to be honest. It shoots good enough I may not do one.

Thank you for the response.
My Berger 130 VLDs out of the Proof also seem to be jump agnostic. Similar 3/8-1/2" groups with .030, .050, .080, and .120.
Mine was a bit slow at 2715fps when loaded with 41.8gr of H4350 but no pressure signs so I think I'll load up to a higher node.
YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[1588]

I picked this barrel up in trade
I’m getting half moa
Coal 2.83
1.20 to ogive
I have not done a seating depth test yet and to be honest. It shoots good enough I may not do one.

1.20" to the ogive? I've been trying to duplicate my results with Hornady 140g ELD Match ammunition, which has posted several 5 shot 7/8" groups at 300 yards with my RPR. On a bad day it will post 1" groups. What I found unusual is that the factory Hornady 140g cartridge bullet jumps 0.120" before engaging the lands.

I think that's a considerable bullet jump for such an accurate cartridge. Is long bullet jump unique to the 6.5 Creedmoor?

I can't get my reloads to do nearly as well and usually see groups around 2" at 300 yards.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[DJL2]

That's not an atypical jump. Lots of SAAMI chambers and factory spec ammunition are going to make a big jump - and many do so with fine accuracy. You could check out the Precision Rifle Blog - they do an article series on Jump and then branch out into an interview with Scott Satterlee with the Modern Day Sniper pod cast.

I didn't see accuracy start to come together with the 130 TMK I was loading until I jammed that thing about as far into the case as I could with the bearing surface still above the neck shoulder junction.

Oh... and go win some matches. Because if you're shooting a legit .25-.30 MOA at 300 yds you have a rifle that is Bench Rest accurate with the accuracy to win just about any shooting match your skills will let you compete in.

 

[Dogsniper]

Thank you for the response.
My Berger 130 VLDs out of the Proof also seem to be jump agnostic. Similar 3/8-1/2" groups with .030, .050, .080, and .120.
Mine was a bit slow at 2715fps when loaded with 41.8gr of H4350 but no pressure signs so I think I'll load up to a higher node.
YMMV, happy shooting.

Fixed it

 

[Dogsniper]

1.20" to the ogive? I've been trying to duplicate my results with Hornady 140g ELD Match ammunition, which has posted several 5 shot 7/8" groups at 300 yards with my RPR. On a bad day it will post 1" groups. What I found unusual is that the factory Hornady 140g cartridge bullet jumps 0.120" before engaging the lands.

I think that's a considerable bullet jump for such an accurate cartridge. Is long bullet jump unique to the 6.5 Creedmoor?

I can't get my reloads to do nearly as well and usually see groups around 2" at 300 yards.

Back to the drawing board.

I fixed typo

 

[1588]

That's not an atypical jump. Lots of SAAMI chambers and factory spec ammunition are going to make a big jump - and many do so with fine accuracy. You could check out the Precision Rifle Blog - they do an article series on Jump and then branch out into an interview with Scott Satterlee with the Modern Day Sniper pod cast.

I didn't see accuracy start to come together with the 130 TMK I was loading until I jammed that thing about as far into the case as I could with the bearing surface still above the neck shoulder junction.

Oh... and go win some matches. Because if you're shooting a legit .25-.30 MOA at 300 yds you have a rifle that is Bench Rest accurate with the accuracy to win just about any shooting match your skills will let you compete in.

I could not believe the accuracy of the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge. I spent a lot of hours at the reloading bench developing .308 Winchester 168g loads that would shoot just under MOA groups at 300 yards. My 175g loads shot slightly over MOA.

Thanks for the leads. I'll check out the Precision Rifle Blog and Scott Satterlee for help. I shot High Power Rifle and competed with handguns for years and I think we got away with a lot on the reloading bench that won't wash when shooting over 600 yards. I am new to F Class shooting and have a great deal to learn about proper load development.

 

[Screwgunner]

Well I just picked up some superformance because I do not see it on here. Will do a ladder test with hornady 130 grain eld match. Will post results. Gun is a stelth.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I was playing with 153 bergers this weekend.

Lands were around 2.966
OAL: 2.935
Lapua Brass
BR4
H4350.

Ladder test from 39.8 to 41.6 No real preasure signs or heavy bolt even at the upper end where I know its around 66K PSI. Was shooting in 35* weather so that helps.

Going to settle on a 40.8 and start playing with seating depth. Got 2650 out of a 23" barrel.

 

[Fighting the good fight]

Well I just picked up some superformance because I do not see it on here. Will do a ladder test with hornady 130 grain eld match. Will post results. Gun is a stelth.

I was running superformance this weekend on under some 130 eld m and love it it. Ive always loved superformance from the time i first tried it with some 123 eld m and some other stuff but thiss weekend them 130s and that powder were unbelievable

 

[Fighting the good fight]

I was running superformance this weekend on under some 130 eld m and love it it. Ive always loved superformance from the time i first tried it with some 123 eld m and some other stuff but thiss weekend them 130s and that powder were unbelievable

Im still testing a few powders like varget witch actually sucked but im going to do some more experimenting with it and some more as well but hybird 100 V shot good h4350 always does imr 4350 and RL 26 were awsome this weekend was using 123 eld m 130 eld m 140 eld m 140 sst 147 eld m under all those powders with various ladders and primers cause i was having some cycling issues with the AR 10 6.5 CM but got everything worked out now. Alot of shooting this weekend with all the listed powders and charges straight out of the hornady book same with coal. Best shooting was the 130s with superformance with LR BR primers and hybird with 210m

 

[TACC]

I would first start off by changing the weight of your buffer then move on to an adjustable gas block. Also, do a pressure test.

I agree, I wouldn't be changing loads until you get an adjustable gas block and get it cycling correctly first.

 

[Fighting the good fight]

I agree, I wouldn't be changing loads until you get an adjustable gas block and get it cycling correctly first.

Its cycling perfect with at lot less hotter loads. The ladders i ran this weekend were pretty conservative. I was also trying different primers as will be getting an adjustable block here in the near future to fine tune.

 

[ghostrider_OneOne]

I am about to invest in some quality brass. I would like some input on large vs. Small primers for 6.5
I have a keg of rl16 and 100v, also 1k each of 147eldm and 140match burners.
24" barrel
Ranges 600 to 1200
Suggestions welcomed

 

[S3th]

I am about to invest in some quality brass. I would like some input on large vs. Small primers for 6.5
I have a keg of rl16 and 100v, also 1k each of 147eldm and 140match burners.
24" barrel
Ranges 600 to 1200
Suggestions welcomed

SRP>

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I am about to invest in some quality brass. I would like some input on large vs. Small primers for 6.5
I have a keg of rl16 and 100v, also 1k each of 147eldm and 140match burners.
24" barrel
Ranges 600 to 1200
Suggestions welcomed

Curious about this too - tagged

 

[ghostrider_OneOne]

SRP>

I've noticed many top shooters going with SRP but can anyone tell me why. I'm a math and physics guy. I like numbers.....

 

[S3th]

I've noticed many top shooters going with SRP but can anyone tell me why. I'm a math and physics guy. I like numbers.....

Slightly better SD/ES (I believe), however, if you currently have LRP brass w/ LRP there is no real reason to switch. If you are starting new, it is recommended to go SRP. Scott Satterlee confirmed that SRP is better but continues to use (or did) LRP for his 6CM as he was tooled/inventory for it.