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Their listed data shows 144 and then go to 153, guess the 147 wasn't available when they did their testing. And while Hornady lists a few VVN powders in their 6 & 6.5 data, they seam to use only the slower powders ?? Needless to say, use either the 144 or 152 starting loads and work up.Hi there, having troubles finding decent starting point for Vihtavuori N555 and ELD-M 147gr, any experiences?
N555 Is a fairly new powder and the 147 ELDMs are unobtanium around here, which means there is not much loading data going around. I think I'll start with 37,8 and work my way upTheir listed data shows 144 and then go to 153, guess the 147 wasn't available when they did their testing. And while Hornady lists a few VVN powders in their 6 & 6.5 data, they seam to use only the slower powders ?? Needless to say, use either the 144 or 152 starting loads and work up.
Questions:
- How bad is the challenge with components? With patients can you pretty much find what you are looking for to replicate something similar to the above mentioned load?
- A Hornady 6.5eldm match round is currently selling for $2.00 +. Any kind of feel for what you might be able to replicate that round for price wise? I know there are alot of variables here, but hoped someone might be able to estimate that the components overall are roughly X, or you would probably save X%sih.
Components are increasingly available (use the discord, have your info pre loaded and be ready to just pay what it costs when it’s available), but not cheap and there are purchase quantity limits - which really adds to the primer and powder costs, which have already come up.
Right now, I’d ballpark ELDMs at.45 per, powder at .25 per, primers at .15 per, and cases $1 each to start. Depending on how you amortized the brass and value your time (both at the pc trying to get components and at the bench) it’s not saving a whole lot.
Haven't tried it myself, but I've heard of guys running the Elite Hunters as a substitute for not being able to find Hybrids over the last couple years. Apparently they run incredibly well as an alternative. Again, haven't tried it myself, but I'd hazard a guess would dig up some threads on it here or over at AS.
I've had excellent results with both running Hornady ELDM's and HPBT's.H4350 vs Staball for 140+ gr bullets…. Thoughts? Staball is supposed to be slower burning….
H4350 vs Staball for 140+ gr bullets…. Thoughts? Staball is supposed to be slower burning….
Both can work, but H4350 is significantly more temp stable than Staball 6.5, just very hard to find. [Many double base powders (like RL-26) produce a lot of speed, sometimes 100-180 fps more, but are also more temp sensitive.]
Staball is supposed to be the best most temp stable ball powder ever, and it is, but ALL ball powders are more temp sensitivity than the so called Extreme (extruded) Hodgedon single base powders. [The marketing hype surrounding Staball is a little excessive…]
Past 800 yards, single base extruded powders with good temperature stability will often outperform a load that runs 100-150 fps faster (therefore 5% less wind drift) but suffers from temp stability issues, because vertical dispersions could increase by 200% to 300%. Below 400 yards, it is much less of an issue.
If Staball is all you can find, just load two batches and keep them separated and clearly marked, one for hot days/later time of day, and one for normal days or colder mornings, to keep your speed within the node (flat spot on the speed vs powder plot).
In a world of temp sensitive powders, when temp increases, so does velocity, so does vertical stringing.This is great thank you! Question though, what do you mean by “because vertical dispersions could increase by 200% to 300%”. Not sure I follow.
Ok… so another dumb question for here: Has anyone ever looked at velocities and or accuracies as a function of neck tension? Meaning, hold everything constant, load, seating depth, etc. and adjust neck tension. If so what are the results? How does it change? Thanks!
Yes “neck tension” (really interference fit) is a potential tuning variable, but it is a secondary tuning handle. I would start with 2 thou of neck tension/interference fit, and then tune powder load to stay right in the middle of the speed flat spot (node), then adjust seating depth for best group size (it changes barrel timing, so bullet exit time, which changes the angle the barrel is pointing in the whip cycle), and if the group is good to go, i would stop there.
Higher or lower neck tension also changes bullet exit time (and therefore positive compensation), so in some ways it is an alternative to seating depth, but it also affects combustion. It is harder to control actual bullet grip/seating force (achieve consistency), than changing bullet seating depth.
The application of dry or wet lube also affects actual bullet grip, also annealing of the neck (flame vs AMP), and brushing the inside of the necks, etc. I like to paint Neolube nr 2 on the inside of the neck and on the bullet, that brought down my SD from 8 to 4.6 fps. [If you are already dealing with a properly tuned load.]
If my best efforts at load development failed to get a 1/3” group at 100, i would first try 2 other primer brands/types, but if that did not help, i would go up on neck tension to 3 or 3.5 thou and make sure the inside of the neck is correctly chamfered.
Note that such high levels of interference fit means you are resizing the neck using the bullet, which changes the Vickers hardness of the brass in the neck, and that changes brass springback. That in effect is undoing a portion of your annealing efforts (making the brass slightly harder, via work hardening). [Changing/reducing the Aztec code by 2 or 3 if you use an AMP machine achieves the same net effect. Not recommending this approach, just pointing it out.]
Btw: You don’t want the pressure ring at the base of the bullet to get cut off due to super high interference fit and sharp edges. Very obvious normally as it leaves a bunch of thin copper rings around your press area. So chamfer properly.
In short: You should get by with powder charge and seating depth 80% of the time. And a barrel tuner (usually) means you can load to mag length and avoid seating depth optimization. Eric Cortina makes a nice brake/tuner combo that i have used with good results.
Best advice: Try to keep it dead simple. Only go deeper down the rabbit hole if truly needed.
I’d start at max magazine length and test deeper from there.Just got some 130 Berger VLD targets for my Tikka T3x Tac A1…..If i load to .020 off the lands or so the COAL is about 2.950 and there is virtually no bearing surface in the case neck. What do y’all think about loading to say 2.900 and then adjusting in from there to try to find a depth node. Anyone done this with luck or any input? Thanks!
My Tikka has a max mag length of approx. 2.950 but i think 2.90 is going to be the longest I can load and have enough bearing surface in the neck of the case. I guess I will load there and then work my way back in 20 thou increments or soI’d start at max magazine length and test deeper from there.
John
Is there a list of which powders are single base, double base, etc.?
I "had" the same rifle. I still have the action, but I'm on my 3rd barrel. Now, the 20" factory barrel. I ran it with H4350 and RL16 with the 140's and had zero issues. Yes, it was slower than everyone else out there (like, 2685 with a can) but, SD was solid, it was stupid accurate, and gave me no grief at distance. Just a little more wind holding then the other guys.Load dev and expectations: So I am currently running a stock 20” Tikka barrel on my CTR. I’m currently struggling to reach higher velocities w h4350 and 140, 144 and 147 grain bullets, both Hornady and Bergers. Im floating bw the 2500 and 2700 depending on bullet weight… and hitting max loads according to the Hornady guides… I am ticking over about .5gr here and there over “max” book charge though w no signs of pressure.
That said, due to the shorter barrel does it make sense to just stick w lighter bullets until I get something longer? Or do I keep pushing hotter loads to get more velocity?
I’m analyzing for nodes and seeing a few but I’d prefer them at higher velocities.
Net net, do I go down to smaller bullets and sacrifice BC in exchange for higher velocities or not…?
Have a stupid question for the shooting gallery…. So I came into my possession a bunch of Berger Elite Hunting bullets in 6.5 (140gr). While I do hunt I mostly snipe paper from really far away…. My favorite bullets however are normally the 144 or the 140 gr hybrids but with the current state of getting bergers in general I’ll take what I can get…. What are folks thoughts on using elites for plinking, long range target shooting only. What the difference in BC? How well will they shoot compared to hybrid target rounds, etc….
Thanks y’all!
Btw I’m loading them w stayball and h4350.
Anyone got any insight for load data using 127 Barnes LRX or Hammer Hunters out of an 18” barrel? Velocities and such
Anyone got any insight for load data using 127 Barnes LRX or Hammer Hunters out of an 18” barrel? Velocities and such
Have you tried running simulations? Such as Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quick Loads? They aren’t perfect but can give you a good idea of about what to expect.
Have you tried running simulations? Such as Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quick Loads? They aren’t perfect but can give you a good idea of about what to expect.
Holy cow thanks for the help! I have not tried quick load or Gordon’s.Here is simulations run for h4350 w 127 Barnes. From 43 Gr down to 41.2. @DEWD_STUFF let me know and I can send you an output file.
Oh I forgot to adjust the barrel length in the sim but will do it later and send you a pm.Holy cow thanks for the help! I have not tried quick load or Gordon’s.
On hand I will def be using H4350 for the hunting bullets since I’ll be crossing state lines and hunting different seasons, want the stability. For general plinking I’ll use Win 760 and IMR 4831 with 130 grain OTM’s.
CCI 450 primers and Peterson brass.
All out of the 18” barrel. I doubt I’ll get into the 2900’s using H4350.
Sincerely appreciate it!Oh I forgot to adjust the barrel length in the sim but will do it later and send you a pm.