New guy here looking into falling down the rabbit hole of reloading 6.5. I have an arc nucleus gen 2 complete rifle. A couple questions that I would be forever grateful for some advice. 1. Is Lapua and alpha brass something I should just plan on never finding? What should I start with instead? Any load data that would make a good starting point? I will be searching a ton but figured I'd ask the pros. Sorry for a potential redundant question from as newb!
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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Welcome to reloading!! As to question #1, you can find Lapua (have never even tried to find alpha) if you are willing to shop online. I live in the Dallas area and have never seen Lapua brass in the wild here, but I occasionally find it online. The key is patience. You may find some today, or maybe not for 2 weeks.
Regarding your second question, you will get as many answers as there are options out there. For me, the best bullets are Berger or Hornady ELDM and ELDX. I have had problems sourcing Berger so I go with Hornady since in my area they are easily found. Powders are the same. Tons of options. I have used IMR 4350 for decades. H4350 is also a good choice as are VV540 and VV555 but are a little harder to find.
Primers I will just say, get the ones that fit your brass. Large rifle or small rifle as needed. Of all your materials these will likely be the hardest to find. They have been, in the recent past, for me. I use CCI Bench Rest when I can find them.
Good luck!! There is a ton of information here. Take advantage of it best you can.
Thank you for the reply!! So does it really matter if I go small or large rifle primer? So say it's easier at the moment to find large in the brass and in the actual primer do I just start there? Not saying the next time I need primers the other of the one I don't start with will be the one I can actually find. I don't think my rifle likes eldm's. I have been shooting 140 hornady match and they have been pretty inconsistent with SD's in the 20s. I have been told that's pretty standard for factory ammo but it's not good enough. This has led me to wanting to get into reloading. Afterall, if low SD's and tight groups aren't the goal, then what the hell is the point??Welcome to reloading!! As to question #1, you can find Lapua (have never even tried to find alpha) if you are willing to shop online. I live in the Dallas area and have never seen Lapua brass in the wild here, but I occasionally find it online. The key is patience. You may find some today, or maybe not for 2 weeks.
Regarding your second question, you will get as many answers as there are options out there. For me, the best bullets are Berger or Hornady ELDM and ELDX. I have had problems sourcing Berger so I go with Hornady since in my area they are easily found. Powders are the same. Tons of options. I have used IMR 4350 for decades. H4350 is also a good choice as are VV540 and VV555 but are a little harder to find.
Primers I will just say, get the ones that fit your brass. Large rifle or small rifle as needed. Of all your materials these will likely be the hardest to find. They have been, in the recent past, for me. I use CCI Bench Rest when I can find them.
Good luck!! There is a ton of information here. Take advantage of it best you can.
Ah hmm. I was thinking you were reloading. Ergo the bullets were just bullets, not the ammo. I reload my own ammo and use Hornady bullets. Pretty much every bit as good as Berger, maybe. If not then very close.
For factory ammo I have no idea what would be best.
My questions are research for when I get into actually reloading. Right now, I am shooting Hornady match factory ammo which is not super consistent out of my rifle. So, what I am inferring from your comment is that even though the box ammo is not performing the best, I should still try eldm bullets for reloading? I want better results than what factory ammo can give me. So, time to venture into reloading.
For what its worth out of my Howa 1500 140 ELDM Factory was sub MOA. Handloads put down even tighter sub MOA groups some half MOA using the same 140gr ELD out of the same brass. I bought Peterson brass to try out and it didnt make a difference in groups.
Your chamber probably didnt like the factory seating depth of those rounds.
Your chamber probably didnt like the factory seating depth of those rounds.
This is why I come here! Thank you! I will start with the Hornady brass I already have and probably eldms and see where that takes me.
MY $0.02 worth of advice ,near any reputable Match ammo is gonna be Great Brass . I had 0 brass for 6.5 back when and found a deal on Norma Golden Target . Their Brass is near every bit of Lapua ( I've run comparisons real world tests and find NO fault with either ) .
When I secured 6.5 Norma it cost Me $22.50 per #20 ,so pretty reasonable in MY book for New ammo and Once fired Brass in MY chambers .
Compare once fired or range pickup and You'll understand immediately that reasoning . First #5 I ran back July 2023 at 165 yd. out of MY self built Aero Precession , so I was happy . Especially seeing as it got Better when the wind died down . Fyi : I don't even own a rifle rest ,just a sandbag
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That is why many of us reload, to achieve greater precision, accuracy. I gave you several powders which should give you excellent results. The ELD bullets are top notch and modern technology as are the Bergers.
When reloading consistency in settings, weights etc are key, regarding what you do. Choosing quality components, quality equipment, and using quality techniques will produce a quality result.
As in programming: garbage in, garbage out.
Learn what you can by reading from early posts on up to the current. I use several reloading apps and have some old books from pre internet days lol. Been reloading since mid/late 70’s. Safety is key, as is knowledge. Be familiar with the process as much as possible and keep your processes simple, safety first. Stay within min/max charges and don’t get creative.
Best of luck and this is a great forum for learning. The only dumb question is the one not asked.
Regarding which kind of primer/brass, I have read several opinions and really, I am not sure there is a significant difference. So you may wind up with availability making your choices for you lol
I am huge on statistics and most of the analysis I have seen was not convincing because of small sample sizes.
Visit the Hornady you tube vids. There is a ton of information there by guys that shoot very large sample sizes. When it comes to statistical analysis I trust their experiences.
At the same time, sometimes its good to have a backup projectile. Seeing shit like this is disheartening.
This is now the 6.5mm Fuddmoor general chat/BBQ recipes thread
Tried 145 Match Burners I had laying around w/ 80k jump & grouped 1.5MOA out of a <0.4MOA barrel... 3 in a single hole plus 2 off in another hole. Might try increasing neck tension to 2.5k plus 120k jump since I have ~500 & would like to get rid of them practicing
Tried 145 Match Burners I had laying around w/ 80k jump & grouped 1.5MOA out of a <0.4MOA barrel... 3 in a single hole plus 2 off in another hole. Might try increasing neck tension to 2.5k plus 120k jump since I have ~500 & would like to get rid of them practicing
I can dig it. The difference between 140 and 147 ELD M’s and 143 ELD X is minor. In a pinch the ELDM’s make good hunting rounds. They all perform well at distance precision-wise.
Looking for a little advice from experienced reloaders. All of these are 10 round groups and are both seated .015 off the lands.
Top row is Hornady 140g Eldm, lapua srp, cci450 and h4350.
40.4g
sd=6.5
Avg-2709
Es-20
40.7g
Sd-6.7
Avg- 2732
Es-22
41.0g
Sd-5.5
Avg 2752
Es-16
Berger 140g hybrid, lapua srp, h4350
10 round numbers
41.5
Sd-3.8
Avg-2797
Es-12
20 round
Sd-7.0
Avg-2795
Es-29
So my question is which of the two would you pick to run solely. I’m looking to pick one and just run it for a while and start into prs.
Test them farther out to see if the groups hold. 100 yard is a start but not the end in picking a load. I would test them at at least 300 yards also.
I’ve shot them both out to 400 on steel, that’s all my rang goes too. Both were solid. Point of aim and point of impact. I need more range which I’ll get soon to true everything up.
400 is far enough to see if the group size holds together. If they both shoot just as good as the other than it’s your pick.
While I'm here, any starting points on where 140 ELDMs like to sit or how much jump (Load is 41.5 H4350)? Right now I can shoot 100 or 1000 and nothing in between, so I may hold off dev until my memberships come through at ranges
When I load them I load them at .020" off the lands but even in factory ammo where they are jumping .070" they still shoot well. The ELDs took that from the old AMAX in that they are not really to worried about a jump.
Oh, and for those who take their data seriously this #52 and the first part #50 your groups are too small make a lot of interesting points about how powder works, how dispersion patterns are, and statistical analysis sample sizes.
In semi or auto platforms ,I'd recommend MINIMUM 0.020" off your lands . Bumps slams and jerks can become problematic the closer one is to the Lands . Personally 0.020 "- 0.025" for ME . Bolts I've run them as close as 0.005" but truthfully didn't improve groups ,so settled on 0.015" .
Witnessed at a Range a Land Jamb and or combination at maximum load and it wasn't pretty . No injury but I'd Not purchase that .308 !.
Witnessed at a Range a Land Jamb and or combination at maximum load and it wasn't pretty . No injury but I'd Not purchase that .308 !.
In semi or auto platforms ,I'd recommend MINIMUM 0.020" off your lands . Bumps slams and jerks can become problematic the closer one is to the Lands . Personally 0.020 "- 0.025" for ME . Bolts I've run them as close as 0.005" but truthfully didn't improve groups ,so settled on 0.015" .
Witnessed at a Range a Land Jamb and or combination at maximum load and it wasn't pretty . No injury but I'd Not purchase that .308 !.
I agree 100% and with semi autos the magazines will be the limiting factor on OAL. You won't get closer than about .050" off with AR mags and a SAAMI chamber.
I have never run closer than .020" in my match rifles as they get dirty and shot a lot so I don't want anything to mess with my reliability.
Well said, brother!In semi or auto platforms ,I'd recommend MINIMUM 0.020" off your lands . Bumps slams and jerks can become problematic the closer one is to the Lands . Personally 0.020 "- 0.025" for ME . Bolts I've run them as close as 0.005" but truthfully didn't improve groups ,so settled on 0.015" .
Witnessed at a Range a Land Jamb and or combination at maximum load and it wasn't pretty . No injury but I'd Not purchase that .308 !.
There is no sense in pushing the edge of safety. It only takes a split second to convert civilized safety into dangerous chaos for no good reason.
When I keep my records, redundant as it may seem, I record oal and bto. If the relationship changes I may have done something bad wrong. LoL
I follow production processes and assign batch numbers, marked on the brass, and recorded with the rest of the pertinent information.
One really notices Land chasing in Magnums ,as it can account for heavy bolt lift or damaged bolts . Again I've not done anything so drastic ,so as to pound open a bolt but have seen it more than a couple of times at ranges matches and such .
I truly believe I've seen just about everything at shooting ranges and clubs, matches and tournaments ,including guns exploding contestants dying.
Including a close friend from a fragmented shotgun on the 26 yd trap line .
Talk about Karma ,the guy who owned that shotgun with the overcharge ,was killed at another club 65 miles away during a league shoot some 4 months later . Made ME a believer, what goes around comes around !!.
Both incidents were determined Operator Error accidents .Afterwards we were notified NO more Reloads during any sanctioned shoot Period . Tournaments and matches Never allowed home built shot shell in competition but warm up pre rounds were open . That ceased after those two deaths in Kommyfornia ,that was decades ago .
One really notices Land chasing in Magnums ,as it can account for heavy bolt lift or damaged bolts . Again I've not done anything so drastic ,so as to pound open a bolt but have seen it more than a couple of times at ranges matches and such .
I truly believe I've seen just about everything at shooting ranges and clubs, matches and tournaments ,including guns exploding contestants dying.
Including a close friend from a fragmented shotgun on the 26 yd trap line .
Talk about Karma ,the guy who owned that shotgun with the overcharge ,was killed at another club 65 miles away during a league shoot some 4 months later . Made ME a believer, what goes around comes around !!.
Afterwards we were notified NO more Reloads during any sanctioned shoot Period . Tournaments and matches Never allowed home built shot shell in competition but warm up pre rounds were open . That ceased after those two deaths in Kommyfornia ,that was decades ago .
Yup even in my magnums I used to shoot in matches they were .020" off. Never closer. Not worth the risk.
Never been around anyone have a rifle blow up in 21 years of rifle matches so considering myself lucky in that account. Case head separations yup but no full explosions.
Nice SD, and for 50 rounds. That’s data you can rely on. May I ask your COL?
Looks like you have your magic number. Your MV is a tad higher than what Hornady data suggests and you are running just a tad longer. Ergo a very safe load with good quality components. Cant ask for much better than that!
My 2.85 gets a CBTO of 2.23.
I agree it’s a little fast. I have my first prs match in April. I am gonna run 40.5g. Although I would like to find a charge around 2650 to use less powder and maybe less recoil. Shooting the 40.5 , the hits were rather quick to spot while on a tank trap or barricade at 400y.Looks like you have your magic number. Your MV is a tad higher than what Hornady data suggests and you are running just a tad longer. Ergo a very safe load with good quality components. Cant ask for much better than that!
My 2.85 gets a CBTO of 2.23.
It’s about 50fps slower than the factory 140 ELD ammo I run in matches so I wouldn’t slow it down any if you have an accurate load.
Alright thanks for the advice. It’s plenty accurate for prs.
If you want to reduce recoil, a good option is dropping bullet weight.
I prefer a little molten lead in the forend lol.
Shoot those heavier, better ballistic bullets and experience less recoil.
I just ordered some lead ingots from Amazon and melted them in an old small pot. Pouring was a bit trickery so make sure you are in a safe area, nothing interesting under it, and go slow. I used a grind bit to smooth it out. Added about 2.5 lbs
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Shortly after the lead addition I went ahead and bed the action, mainly the posts using stainless steel posts. Shoots <1/2 moa. My actions screws are torqued to 55# vs the 30# before bedding the posts.
Love it. After I burn out the barrel I will replace that with a bull. I expect this is my last rifle.
It may reduce recoil if kept at the same velocity and then all you are doing is making the wind call harder. A lot in matches are going the opposite direction and using 153/156grn bullets under 2700fps. You get better BC and about the same recoil as a 140 100fps faster.
Honestly, I don’t think I can tell the difference in recoil between a 140 gn bullet and a 153, for instance. Specially since max charge is lower for the 153 than the 140.
Nope me either. My 153 load feels about the same as the 140 load that is faster and actually less than the factory lot of 140 ELDs I have that are coming out 2850fps.
I gotta tell you, I was shocked and speechless after our conversations to learn that you, of all people, are competing with factory ammo. Not that it matter much.
I am also shocked to learn they rip that fast. LoL back when I was shooting .224 I traded for some black label (or something like that) and shot a couple. They kicked harder than I expected then when I pulled the rest apart for components I saw why. What I would describe as an overcharge coupled with a substantial variation in charge weight round over round.
I’m about to load up some 6.5 CM with Hornady 129 SST projectiles and 4350 Powder , Hornady Brass , CCI Primer .
Looking at the Hodgdon website for the 4350 load data ( 130gn is the nearest projectile weight ) they recommend starting 35.2 and max 39.2 which seems like a very low powder window when you consider that I’m using just North of 42gn of 2209 with the 143eldx ?
I’m also loading out to a OAL of 2.80 inches to try and combat the excessively long throat on the Tikka so there’s a quite a lot of space left in the case with such a low powder charge .
Anyone here using this projectile/powder combo in the 6.5 CM and what are your charge weights ?
Looking at the Hodgdon website for the 4350 load data ( 130gn is the nearest projectile weight ) they recommend starting 35.2 and max 39.2 which seems like a very low powder window when you consider that I’m using just North of 42gn of 2209 with the 143eldx ?
I’m also loading out to a OAL of 2.80 inches to try and combat the excessively long throat on the Tikka so there’s a quite a lot of space left in the case with such a low powder charge .
Anyone here using this projectile/powder combo in the 6.5 CM and what are your charge weights ?
I pulled out my Hornady Reloading Manual (11th Edition).
Page 337 lists 129-135 grain bullets and explicitly lists the 129 gr SST with a COL of 2.670" (compared to 2.800" for the 140 ELD-M).
Here are the weights and velocities for H4350 with these bullet weights of 129-135 grains:
2600 fps: 41.1 gr
2650 fps: 41.9 gr
2700 fps: 42.8 gr
Thanks tor that info.
It seems strange that Hodgdon site lists such a low recommendation .
Since my initial post I’ve actually loaded up half a dozen rounds of 38.3 / 38.6 / 38.9 / 39.2 at OAL of 2.8 , but I’m wondering if I should seat them a bit deeper to reduce the air space in the case a bit .
Anyone have thoughts on this , or will I be fine to shoot them at 2.8 ?
You should check out the Hornady apps. One for reloading data and the other long range shooting solutions. Both work pretty well.
I recently switched from IMR 4350 to VV555 (free app from VihtaVouri). The 555 is very stable and consistent.
