100 yds, 8 shots, finishing off the box. 26” Benchmark, 45gr Reloder 26, 147 ELD-M, Starline brass, 2802 FPS.
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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
My 26in CBI also liked the 147 ELDm but with RL16. I ran them at 2820fps for 2500 rounds before I pulled the barrel.
Nope, and not planning to. I would kinda feel sorry for bucks that run off and slowly go die over the next ridge. Not saying that would happen, and maybe i swallow the bullet expansion marketing hype too easily... but i prefer to use the best available hunting bullets on critters i intend to eat. Feral hogs are in the vermin category.
Just sayin!
Lovely group! That Tikka CTR is a good looking rifle, and the one i have shot was pretty accurate too.
I did notice that factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo like Hornady and Berger was around 60 fps slower in that rifle, compared to what was printed on the box, but it was new, so did not think much about it, expecting it will speed up later.
I see you used 42.0 gn of H4350 to get 2,700 fps, which is a little slow. Presume that is a 26” barrel? How many rounds through the rifle so far?
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While we are talking about best bullets for deer: Has anybody tried the Lehigh Defense 122 gn copper hunting bullets on deer?
Reason i ask: It is the ONLY 6.5 bullet on Brownells (today) that is not sold out. They have several 200 gn 30 cal bullets in stock. Of course all of this will he gone in 30 minutes.
I bet that it is hard on the barrel too.Re: **6.5 Creedmoor Loads**
RW71,
Excellent shooting. Do you happen to know your velocity with that load?
Spartan Precision R700 6.5 CM
25.5" 1/8.5 5R Bartlein M40 #14
APA little bastard break
McMillan A3-5
Phantom finish Cerakote in Coyote Tan
I am shooting the 123 Lapua Scenars with 39.5 of Varget and Fed 210M primers @2880-2900 and the accuracy is outstanding (though somewhat larger groups than RW71's). It holds its own out to 800-900 yards but at 1K it gets pushed around a lot despite what the tables may say. The group below is not uncommon for five shots at 100.
I also had very good results with both wind and accuracy at 1K with Berger 140 VLD's 44.5 of H4350 and Fed 210M primers but the primers would fall out on the next loading. This load did give me all hits on target at 1K in tricky winds
but it was just too hard on the brass for my budget.
The barrel lasted to right about 3,000 rounds. Rebarreled with a 22” Whitley Palma profile, great balance and accuracy.
Superb group!
“I also had very good results with both wind and accuracy at 1K with Berger 140 VLD's 44.5 of H4350 and Fed 210M primers but the primers would fall out on the next loading. This load did give me all hits on target at 1K in tricky winds but it was just too hard on the brass for my budget.”
The benefit of high BC plus high speed.
Which is why i am rechambering a 6.5 CM barrel to 6.5 PRC. It is a 30” barrel so speed should be scorching. And barrel life will halve... New bolt, new dies, new brass, new powders...For 140 class projectiles, most 6.5 CM rifles will hit pressure signs like hard bolt lift or ejector marks on the brass at or about 42 gn of H4350, but some rifles are good at “hiding” pressure signs. Some rifles also have roomy chambers and it may take a bit more. Not meaning to be critical, but i can see why the primer pockets opened up after just one reload.
If you have access to a $40 plus micrometer (don’t use calipers for this), then a more reliable way to check for over pressure is to measure the diameter of the case at the web area and compare with a new unfired round. Take an average of at least 3. It should not expand a measurable amount in one firing. You can keep track of this measurment every 5 or so firings and you will see small gradual movement - assuming the load is not over pressure. SRP brass moves very slowly, about 3x slower than LRP brass. Compare with a discarded / retired round where the primer already tends to fall out. If there is suddenly a lot of movement in the last firing, then something bad caused high pressure to occur. Could be that the ambient temp was high, or the rounds were loaded longer than before and caused a jam, or the rounds sat for a while baking in the hot sun, or you switched to a new batch of powder that is hotter than before. Or perhaps all of the above!
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Tikka's are known for their somewhat slow barrels. Accurate, but slow. That's okay, though. That bullet makes it to 1000 yards and beyond with ease. It's a 24" bbl. with only 300 rds. through it. If I ever shoot it out, I'll replace it with a Bartlein and gain some velocity.
Perusing the thread and looking at various charts, I see discrepancies in listed burn rates reported. Two of the powders I have an interest in are H 380 and RL16. The charts listed below list one faster than the other - the other one is opposite. I'd like to hear from experts about this - if it's common and there are other discrepancies. Are test methods different? Are burn charts a 'guide' and not absolute?
Accurate
Hodgdon
Accurate
Hodgdon
Have used the 150 SMK in a 7.0 twist Shilen barrel and got best speed from RL-17 and Superformance.
The Hornady load manual lists Winchester 760 as a powder that produces good speed with the heavy bullets, but have not tried it.
Accuracy with Superformance was fairly good (0.6” at 100). Pressure arrived around 2900 fps (which is high, and which surprised me too), but it is a 30” barrel, so assume 20 - 25 fps per inch, so maybe just under 2800 fps from a 26” barrel using these powders. Not my most accurate barrel so some of the group size was very likely the barrel and not the load.
Similar max speed for RL-17. Note that RL-17 is VERY temp sensitive, so you will need a winter and summer load to avoid pressure issues. Also: It is sufficiently temp sensitive to push the load out of the node if ambient gets out of hand. So not recommending it for an accuracy load. Some folks report good accuracy. My 100 yard groups were around 0.35”, which i consider “good” (ambient between 85 and 95 F). Don’t let the RL-17 ammo box sit in direct sunshine for hours, and don’t cook the round in a hot barrel for 2 minutes before firing.
My winter hunting rounds are actually a slightly reduced “summer” load, but i keep the rounds in a shirt pocket under two jackets, so they reach body temperature (97 F) within 30 to 40 minutes. Might also a good way to avoid the hang fires and misfires caused by freezing weather that some primers have been blamed for. [And no i am not publishing a list. Might just have been a bad batch. Excessive amounts of lubricant, or the wrong lubricant around a firing pin spring can also cause this problems, with frozen lubricant inside the bolt. You don’t want excessive amounts of gun grease and dust to accumulate inside the bolt body.]
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Been working on a load for the Barnes 140 gr Match Burners, since they are cheap, available and 140 gr ELDMs have become difficult to obtain. After testing, I settled on basically the same load I've been using for the ELDMs:
Barnes 140 gr Match Burners
42.0 gr H4350
Federal 210
Hornady LRP brass
+/-0.050" jump (2.197" CTBO)
26" Criterion
Average MV: 2,771 FPS
ES: 18
SD: 7
Grouped well at 100. I have not have not tested at distance yet.
41.5 gr H4350 also worked well - 2,743 FPS, ES 15, SD 6.
Barnes 140 gr Match Burners
42.0 gr H4350
Federal 210
Hornady LRP brass
+/-0.050" jump (2.197" CTBO)
26" Criterion
Average MV: 2,771 FPS
ES: 18
SD: 7
Grouped well at 100. I have not have not tested at distance yet.
41.5 gr H4350 also worked well - 2,743 FPS, ES 15, SD 6.
Just to add a few pics to illustrate the point: Did a pressure test yesterday and took a micrometer with me to the range. Below is a low pressure round (on the left) that was 2 grain below max, with no pressure signs. Case base diameter did not change, while the over-pressure case on the right with the full circle ejector mark expanded its base by 0.0002” (0.2 thou).
In contrast, the mild pressure case (center below) with the half moon ejector mark was about 0.1 thou larger than before firing, just barely big enough so that you can pick up with a descent micrometer.
The three Lapua cases are below: Left most case was exposed to a safe pressure, middle is the half moon example (over pressure), right is excessive pressure and a full moon ejector mark. Ejector marks are all at the 3 o’clock position. Also note the difference in primer craters.
Below is the low/no pressure example, see pic. Case diameter is essentially the same before and after firing. So no discernible movement, BUT there probably is a tiny amount of expansion, but it is less than what my $40 micrometer can pick up.
Below is the micrometer measurement for the Mild Pressure case, the case with the faint half moon ejector mark at 3 o’clock shown above. Case diameter (at the base) expanded by a barely detectable 0.1 thou:
Below is the measurement for the Over Pressure example(with a bright full moon mark at 3 o’clock), and clearly the case expanded by 0.2 thou, which is a lot:
In my experience, the first (low pressure) example might have brass life of 25-35 shots. The second example (moderately over pressure) i expect the primer pocket will open up fairly quickly, likely in 10 - 12 shots.
Next step: Cleaned all three primer pockets and seated a fresh primer, and the full moon case needed less seating force, still ok but not as tight as before. The other two felt about the same, still tight.
Of course, the full moon situation should be avoided, as it is eating into the safety margin of the Lapua case design (which is stronger than other brands). You can expect maybe 3-5 shots before primers will fall out, so this load will be very hard on the brass.
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Superb group!
“I also had very good results with both wind and accuracy at 1K with Berger 140 VLD's 44.5 of H4350 and Fed 210M primers but the primers would fall out on the next loading. This load did give me all hits on target at 1K in tricky winds but it was just too hard on the brass for my budget.”
The benefit of high BC plus high speed.
For 140 class projectiles, most 6.5 CM rifles will hit pressure signs like hard bolt lift or ejector marks on the brass at or about 42 gn of H4350, but some rifles are good at “hiding” pressure signs. Some rifles also have roomy chambers and it may take a bit more. Not meaning to be critical, but i can see why the primer pockets opened up after just one reload.
If you have access to a $40 plus micrometer (don’t use calipers for this), then a more reliable way to check for over pressure is to measure the diameter of the case at the web area and compare with a new unfired round. Take an average of at least 3. It should not expand a measurable amount in one firing. You can keep track of this measurment every 5 or so firings and you will see small gradual movement - assuming the load is not over pressure. SRP brass moves very slowly, about 3x slower than LRP brass. Compare with a discarded / retired round where the primer already tends to fall out. If there is suddenly a lot of movement in the last firing, then something bad caused high pressure to occur. Could be that the ambient temp was high, or the rounds were loaded longer than before and caused a jam, or the rounds sat for a while baking in the hot sun, or you switched to a new batch of powder that is hotter than before. Or perhaps all of the above!
That 44.5gr is a super hot load hence brass life being non existent. Like you said around 42gr is a good node. Mines 41.8gr 2209 (H4350) and gives me 2850fps out of a 26” barrel. Right where you want to be.
Looking for suggestions on a new bullet for my 24 inch Tikka CTR. My go to has been the 147g ELD M's over 41.56g H4350. They have been great for me at a slow 2620 fps out to 1400m. Challenge is finding them these days so looking for suggestions. I can get 140 ELD's but if I am going to tweak my load might as well look at other bullets. I can find Berger, Lapua. Sierra. What would you choose? or just go with 140 ELD's? Given challenges finding supplies want to grab 1000 to 1500 that will finish out this barrel. Most of my regular shooting is limited to 800m PRS matches but have access to 1600m with a longer drive.
41.5 grains of h4350 was a node in my rifle with 140 eldm’s. I’ve been having a hard time finding any bullets. I just bought a 500 pack of 145gr match burners off of midway they were allowing one per household last week. I haven’t had a chance to load any yet. where are you able to find any bullets at?
You may want to take a look at the Barnes 145gr Match Burners as well. They seem to be relatively available/cheap and G7 BC .350
I have a similar dilemma with the 140 ELDMs becoming difficult to find and the 140gr Match Burners are looking like a suitable replacement. They have been relatively easy to find and cheaper. I posted some data above. Testing at distance tomorrow.
Had very good results with the 144 Berger Hybrid, it is a factory “tipped” bullet, good BC, but more importantly, it has very consistent BC, so vertical spread at distance is very good. I had a nice wide node around 2730 fps, but could drive naked bullets to 2810 before there were clear pressure signs. [Not relevant for this discussion, so just an aside: We managed to get them over 2900 fps with David Tubb’s blended HBN coating and Reloder-17. It is NOT a powder i would recommend, because it is very temperature sensitive, so on a hot day you drop out of the node and the groups open up, or you could even see bad pressure signs. Handle with care.]
However, I can’t find any Berger bullets anywhere. Where do you see 6.5 Berger bullets listed? I really need some!!
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They are both high BC projectiles, and you would likely be happy with either in PRS/NRL competition.
There are some reports about ELDM and A-tip bullets blowing up in competition, and these folks are going back to Berger. I do think there are some bad batches out there... but most batches are ok. I have not had any problems so far with them, or at least so i believe! Shoot mostly Berger bullets these days.
IMHO the Bergers are worth the extra $20 for what i do, because of their BC consistency and superior jacket quality.
Litz wrote about this in his latest book: All jackets are a tiny amount non-concentric, but the group size difference between a Sierra with 0.5 thou “error” and a Berger (J4 jacket) with 0.2 thou is only significant at longer ranges and in BR competitions where folks are shooting super impressive tiny groups. I am not convinced it matters that much in PRS, but some folks pay to have their bullets “spun” in a special machine and sorted based on imbalance. I kid you not!
Funny story: i (only once) shot a 0.05” three shot group at 100, as best i could measure, it was one tiny perfectly round hole, not even slightly oval. Proudly took a photo, and showed it to my buddies. One wisely remarked “are you sure two of your bullets did not perhaps blow up on their way to the target?”... Guess that is entirely possible, but would have expected something approximating a shotgun pattern on the paper. I do realize it might just be dumb luck and that a 10 shot group would have looked way bigger. But the gun was shooting multiple 0.15” and 0.2” groups that day, a honey hole of a shooting range in the piney woods of East Texas, with almost no wind. To this day i wonder about my “record group”...
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Was able to order 2500 elds so went that route. My Tikka drives pretty slow so have not had issues blowing up. Also have a 16 inch that will run the same bullet in so hopefully works well.
135 atip 43.8 rl16 2.950col
First time using my magnetospeed messed up on the 10 shot string for velocity so I shot 5 to get an idea. Still supersonic at a mile
Really pulled that 5th shot, twitched the rear bag right as I broke the shot would've been an awesome group
First time using my magnetospeed messed up on the 10 shot string for velocity so I shot 5 to get an idea. Still supersonic at a mile
Really pulled that 5th shot, twitched the rear bag right as I broke the shot would've been an awesome group
Attachments
ES of 63 seems high. Have you tried a lower charge somewhere between 41.5 to 42.5? I’ve used RL16 for a while in 6.5 and I always get ES <15.
Loading for my kids Ruger Precision Rifle.
I bought a bunch of Nosler RDF because it was what I could find. And using Varget to save what little H4350 for my gun.
Nosler 130gr RDF with a .030" jump
Varget 37, 37.5, 38, 38.5, and 39gr 5 of each.
I pulled 1 out of my 37.5gr group and I think 1 out of my 39gr group. Pretty happy with the ES numbers.
I started getting the slightest brass swipe at 39gr.
I plan on going back and working 37.5-38 a little more.
I bought a bunch of Nosler RDF because it was what I could find. And using Varget to save what little H4350 for my gun.
Nosler 130gr RDF with a .030" jump
Varget 37, 37.5, 38, 38.5, and 39gr 5 of each.
I pulled 1 out of my 37.5gr group and I think 1 out of my 39gr group. Pretty happy with the ES numbers.
I started getting the slightest brass swipe at 39gr.
I plan on going back and working 37.5-38 a little more.
Need to work on it my old chronograph wasn't giving good results so just went for speed. Once I get more rl16 I'm going to rework it
so did you go with the 42.4?? That is awesomeRe: **6.5 Creedmoor Loads**
Still working on my load development but my last outing looked like this...
140 A-Max
H4350
Fed 210M
2.800"
Anybody have a good load for for for 143 eldx and reloader 16 iv heard you can get a good boost in FPS with rl 16
Hey Everyone. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with Norma 130gr Golden Target Bullets. And also if anyone may have a load for them? Thanks!
I use Rl16 with Peterson SRP brass and CCI450s with the 140 ELDM, 143 ELDX, and the 130 Golden Target. Peterson brass has less capacity than Lapua or Hornady, so I am at 41.4 gr on the 140 and 143 and around 42 with the 130 gr bullets. I get 2715 fps out of an 18" and 2830 out of a 28" with the 140s.
They are great bullets for targets and even better for deer. See my post above for my load data.
Thank you for the feedback. These would be used for PRS comps if I were to purchase them.
I have shot them out of a 20" Tikka 260 CTR, a RPR, and my current 6.5 Creedmoor Bartlein barrels that are on my Tikka actions. They stay stable when they go trans-sonic. Shot them out to 1400 yards with all th guns listed.
I love them, but can't find them anywhere. I have found SMK 130s. Haven't loaded any yet, but I plan on just trying to use the same data that I use for the 130 Norma GTs.
I’m sure they are fine. I use it for 140 and 130 eldm and shoot hogs. Try 42-43 grains. OAL same as the hornady eldx precision hunters
Cannot find 144 Berger Hybrids anywhere... so switching to 145 gn Barnes Matchburners.
Weighed 20 of them and there was a surprisingly wide weight range: 0.9 gn. Base-to-ogive measurement was within 1.5 thou, which is pretty good, but then again it was a small sample.
Does it help to weight sort bullets when the weight range is this wide, does anybody have any experience with that?
Weighed 20 of them and there was a surprisingly wide weight range: 0.9 gn. Base-to-ogive measurement was within 1.5 thou, which is pretty good, but then again it was a small sample.
Does it help to weight sort bullets when the weight range is this wide, does anybody have any experience with that?
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Hello Gents! I am a newbie to reloading and have a question for you experts. I did my first hand load and tested them this past weekend. I started with 40 grains and worked up to 43 grains in small increments of .5 and .3 grains. Total of 10 weight groups with 3 rounds per group. Bullet jump was set @ .030". Based off of my results it shows that 42.1 and 42.4 grains are my best nodes, 1.7 and 1.4 StdDev respectively. The ES was 3 fps for both weights. My question is, how do you determine which node to use? Do you look at your bullet groupings for each of those nodes? Or the velocity? The 42.1 had an avg speed of 2854 fps and the 42.4 grain ammo had 2873 fps. No pressure signs observed up to 43 grains. The ref rounds you see in the chart is live ammo that was bought online from Freedom Munitions. Just wanted to get a baseline. Magnetospeed chronograph was used for measuring velocity.
My next step is to test for bullet jump once I commit to a powder charge. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rifle: MPA BA6.5 CM with 26" barrel (new with 36 rounds through barrel prior to testing)
Materials used:
New Lapua brass
Lapua scenar 139gr bullets
Hodgdon H4350 powder
Federal 210 primers
My next step is to test for bullet jump once I commit to a powder charge. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rifle: MPA BA6.5 CM with 26" barrel (new with 36 rounds through barrel prior to testing)
Materials used:
New Lapua brass
Lapua scenar 139gr bullets
Hodgdon H4350 powder
Federal 210 primers
Attachments
I have killed 4 deer and 2 hogs with the 143 ELDX and Rl16. I like the 130 Norma better, but the 143 does the job too.
I also run an MPA 6.5BA, great rifle and comp ready. You will like it!
There is a small section in the MPA manual explaining that the chamber was cut with a non-standard reamer to produce a “Match Chamber”, with freebore optimized for the Hornady 140 ELDM Match factory ammo. My measurements show that it is close to a min spec chamber, which is a good thing if you intend to shoot 140 gn ELDM Hornady factory ammo. The freebore (when new, so no throat erosion yet) is not suitable for the 147 ELDM factory ammo. At around 1,500 to 2,000 rounds you will likely have enough throat erosion to try the longer heavier bullets including the 153/156 gn bullets in hand loads, without the bullet sitting too deep in the case (and eating up powder capacity).
My testing showed that the rifle responds well with a jump of around 20 thou. It did not produce accurate results with a jammed bullet. Also got good result with very long jump (magazine length rounds especially with the long Berger 144 bullet). Bullets tested include the 130 Atip, 140 ELDM, 140 Berger Hybrid and the newer 144 Berger Hybrid. All shot well. The Atips performed the best, and occasionally produced successive five shot groups below 0.2”. That was very satisfying, but this bullet is double the price. And you cannot find it anymore due to the latest ammo shortage.
Because of the min spec chamber you will likely find that you get more speed at any specific powder load than what the reloading handbooks show. Also pressure signs show up a grain or so earlier than in a standard SAAMI chamber, at least in my rifle. Your speed for a 140 bullet driven by H4350 is a little on the high side. Some barrels are faster than others, so not saying your load is over max pressure, but worth double checking for pressure signs.
Most folks would pick the middle of the widest node they find. I would aim for the slower side of your node, to get longer brass life and perhaps also to get slightly better barrel life. Chasing that last 100 fps of speed gains you very little in terms of wind drift. A wide node like you found is good, but a fast load is more expensive in terms of barrel life. Maybe recheck the wide node (41.8 to 42.8 gn) in smaller increments like 0.2 gn (if you have a good scale). If you have a flat spot in the speed graph AND the SDs are below 8 for multiple charge weights, you have found a real node. Then optimize seating depth to minimize group size. You should get below 0.35”. Try 5-30 thou jumps in 5 thou increments, but also try very long jump (30-150 in 20 or 30 thou increments).
Also your barrel will likely speed up significantly somewhere between 50 and 200 rounds and you will then need to redevelop a new load.
Hope this helps!
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Thank you for your response. This is really good info, especially about the heavier bullets for this rifle. I found some ELDM bullets 140gn but waiting for USPS to deliver them this week. Bad timing on my part getting into reloading, lol.
What would be the ideal speed for this barrel/cartridge? Maybe 2700 - 2800 fps?
Yes, i found a node at 2730 fps using a 140 ELDM bullet and H4350. Berger 140 Hybrid factory ammo did 2820 fps (different powder of course).
Worth getting a good reloading manual.
Anyone have a load for a tikka ctr 6.5cm 20" barrel with a 7in tbac can or any suppressed in that barrel length? Going to be loading soon with lapua brass, federal 210m, h4350 and either (130 eldms 143eldx also have some berger hybrid 144 i think).
