PRS Talk 6.5CM in Tactical Division?

[308pirate]

I don't understand the limit on bullet weights? I'd use my 223 at matches if I could use 80.5 Fullbores.

I can sorta see it as they're limiting ammo to something like what you can buy in the store that will run through a magazine.

Whenever you have equipment rules that are anything other than "anything goes" (like USPSA Open division), someone somewhere is going to be pissed that their pet peeve isn't accommodated.

As long as everyone is held to the same rules, doesn't matter.

 

[308pirate]

The challenge is this niche market isn’t currently big enough to sustain both communities that are found in every game/sport.

Competitive
Recreation

Some will fall into both, but many will be one or the other.

This is typically solved via professional leagues and amateur leagues. All major televised sports do this, pool, bowling, golf, etc etc.

You have the option to pick (unless you don’t make the cut for professional) which you want to try or focus on.

USPSA is a hell of a lot bigger than PRS is now (and likely ever will be) and there are no "pro" and "amateur" stages. Everyone shoots the same problem.

This "pro" vs "amateur" thing is just stupid. Everyone is an amateur, just some are better than others.

Figure out a classification system and put people in them. Done. There's your brackets.

Sporting Clays in the UK has a model that would work for PRS classifications with some adaptation. Like PRS, every sporting clays tournament is a different course of fire. Nothing standard about it. Still whoever runs that in the UK has a way to calculate percentages based on match finish. Then bell curve the percentages.

Sporting Clays in the US does it differently. Here you earn "punches" (aka points) based on your finishing position. Every move up in class takes certain number of punches, and the higher you go the more punches it takes to move up.

None of this is higher math and it's relatively simple to do with reported scores and computers in any number of ways.

Like we've talked about before, this wheel exists, there's no need to invent a new one. Just put it on a different rim and mount it.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

USPSA is a hell of a lot bigger than PRS is now (and likely ever will be) and there are no "pro" and "amateur" stages. Everyone shoots the same problem.

This "pro" vs "amateur" thing is just stupid. Everyone is an amateur, just some are better than others.

Figure out a classification system and put people in them. Done. There's your brackets.

Sporting Clays in the UK has a model that would work for PRS classifications with some adaptation. Like PRS, every sporting clays tournament is a different course of fire. Nothing standard about it. Still whoever runs that in the UK has a way to calculate percentages based on match finish. Then bell curve the percentages.

Sporting Clays in the US does it differently. Here you earn "punches" (aka points) based on your finishing position. Every move up in class takes certain number of punches, and the higher you go the more punches it takes to move up.

None of this is higher math and it's relatively simple to do with reported scores and computers in any number of ways.

Like we've talked about before, this wheel exists, there's no need to invent a new one. Just put it on a different rim and mount it.

Good points. However other games that are bigger than uspsa do things differently.

Also doesn’t mean the prs crowd would gravitate towards it.

For example, pool and billiards (and definitely snooker) are not lucrative and such in the US.

However snooker is huge in the UK. Almost like golf here.


I agree we should try to use the uspsa playbook and see if it works. Only way to find out.


Regardless, prs stuff is such a ridiculously niche game…..it may just be destined to be a shit show.

Every other year, someone else splinters off with their “great idea” and it fails or just causes more drama.

Which is why I’m no longer attempting to make a league or run matches. I’ll just shoot and continue with other business ventures that are far more likely to succeed.

 

[MDof2]

As long as everyone is held to the same rules, doesn't matter.

Now we're getting somewhere.....

 

[ma smith]

I don't understand the limit on bullet weights? I'd use my 223 at matches if I could use 80.5 Fullbores.

First, you can shoot whatever you want, so run 223 if you have the components.

For prizes and points, Tac requires essentially mk 262 ammo, or its equivalent.

I mean you can handload it, but nothing will drastically outperform 262 ballistically and still fit nato spec mag.

77 gr is typically max wt with nato spec OALs 2.26 and they all have about .190 g7 no matter brand

Since you cant stuff high bc bullets like 80gr bergers 75 eldms etc into into saami/nato:AR mags , they are no go.

 

[JBoomhauer]

@ma smith
Most guys are running AICS mags and longer barreled bolt guns, you can get a bit more performance out of the heavier stuff compared to an AR.

 

[Rob01]

First, you can shoot whatever you want, so run 223 if you have the components.

For prizes and points, Tac requires essentially mk 262 ammo, or its equivalent.

I mean you can handload it, but nothing will drastically outperform 262 ballistically and still fit nato spec mag.

77 gr is typically max wt with nato spec OALs 2.26 and they all have about .190 g7 no matter brand

Since you cant stuff high bc bullets like 80gr bergers 75 eldms etc into into saami/nato:AR mags , they are no go.

The 75 ELD is one of the more used bullets by .223 Tac shooters. Not many use AR mags as most use AICS with 2.550” oal so they fit fine.

 

[millertime2]

Its a Limited division. Its limited by caliber, bullet weight, and velocity.

To open it up to anything goes in any aspect changes the integrity of the division. Everyone plays by the same rules.

Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys why can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.

 

[308pirate]

Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys what can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.

That's just not how it works

That's not how any of this works

 

[Rob01]

Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys what can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.

No because 176 is less than 178 and 80.5 and 85.5 are more than 77. It’s not about what LE uses but the rules set forth there for the game.

 

[SmartDonkey]

I can see both sides of this:

Why handicap the people that put the time, effort, money into the sport? Or those that are just naturally better.

But- most people don't find it that much fun to have their asses kicked. Some will still have fun, others will be motivated and get better. I would think a large group would decide that they are not up to the task and decide its not for them.

I don't think that SH has a huge cowboy membership but this kind of reminds me of team roping. When everyone competed against everyone the same people would always win. (not a bad thing) Pretty soon the others realized that they didn't have a chance and they were just donating money to the same people every week- and stopped going. To try and get them back they came up with a number system.... everyone gets a number- the better you are the higher the number. And then they would have number roping divisions. Only teams below 4 can compete in this one, the next would be 6 and below etc. When people regularly placed high then they would have their number increased.

They events didn't cost as much to enter- didn't pay as well either- but they did keep people competing and moving up through the ranks. Not sure how some kind of a system like that would work in PRS but I don't see it getting much bigger under the current setup.

 

[308pirate]

Not sure how some kind of a system like that would work in PRS

There are models for shooter classification systems in several sports that are easily adaptable to PRS.

It's not that hard.

 

[Twitchy]

All this talk of what kicks ass and I'm over here competing with 223 in open using 75ELDs/90SMKs/95SMKs.

Run the numbers on a 75ELD doing 3000 and then run the numbers on whatever you want to compare it too. You might be surprised.

 

[beetroot]

All this talk of what kicks ass and I'm over here competing with 223 in open using 75ELDs/90SMKs/95SMKs.

Run the numbers on a 75ELD doing 3000 and then run the numbers on whatever you want to compare it too. You might be surprised.

What barrel length and powder you doing that with?
Thats smokin out of a vanilla 223.

 

[never_summer]

Not too hard to achieve with the right freebore and a 26”. I’m running just shy of 2900 with a suppressed 22” and no pressure signs

 

[beetroot]

Not too hard to achieve with the right freebore and a 26”. I’m running just shy of 2900 with a suppressed 22” and no pressure signs

What mags are you using?
Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.

 

[Twitchy]

What barrel length and powder you doing that with?
Thats smokin out of a vanilla 223.

Current barrel is 28" with Varget. Throated L O N G. Much longer than the typically long .169. I didn't measure, rather I gave my smith a dummy round seated as long as my modified accurate mag would hold. I don't have pictures of my 75ELD groups, so the 95s will have to do.

 

[never_summer]

What mags are you using?
Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.

I personally use mdt polymer mags that allow you to load to 2.55” oal. I’m running a custom throat like above that I had my gunsmith chamber for the 80 eldm at almost max mag length, so my 75s are jumping a bit. If I could run 80s in tac class I would, but finishing up load development right now to try out this year.

 

[beetroot]

Current barrel is 28" with Varget. Throated L O N G. Much longer than the typically long .169. I didn't measure, rather I gave my smith a dummy round seated as long as my modified accurate mag would hold. I don't have pictures of my 75ELD groups, so the 95s will have to do.

View attachment 7777666

What mag is that?
Is that 2.6 the COAL?

 

[Rob01]

What mags are you using?
Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.

I use the MDT poly mags in my .223 also. I use a standard .223 Wylde chamber and .020" off the lands the 75 ELD is right at 2.470" so plenty of room before the 2.550" limit in the mags. I run a 27" barrel and run them around 2950fps.

 

[Solo 43]

I've put together a 223 PRS type rig and will be shooting my first match in Feb at Tehama Gun Club. The rifle is an ex-Palma rifle, throated specifically for 80+ grn bullets/trued up M700/Krieger and I put it in a KRG Bravo stock. The rifle, set up as a Palma rifle, was a laser with any 80's, but I only shot it slinged up/prone (you'd be surprised how small a group you can shoot at way). Looking over my load data from 20 yrs ago, it was shooting 80's between 2900 and 3050, depending on powder (30" barrel)....and I still have a buttload of ammo loaded for it. Shortest distance I ever shot it at was 300....anyway, I'm gonna shoot it w/whatever and I don't care what class I'm in. The days of me being at the top of the leader board are long over/I don't care....I'm just gonna shoot to have some fun. And....one of my ex-course rifles is a 6mm/107 Sierra's at 2950, which would be perfect. Got a ton of reloading components it to and am in the process of turning it into a PRS type rig.

 

[Twitchy]

What mag is that?
Is that 2.6 the COAL?

It's an Accurate Mag 223. I modified it a bit more than people usually do to get over 2.6". I completely cut the front portion of the clampshell insert off rather than just sanding/filing down the front nub that gets you 2.5". I'd have to go back and measure exactly, but it's over 2.6" which is why I put 2.6xx".

 

[Twitchy]

What mag is that?
Is that 2.6 the COAL?

@beetroot

Just checked. The 95's are at 2.633". 90SMKs are generally at 2.505ish.

 

[beetroot]

@beetroot

Just checked. The 95's are at 2.633". 90SMKs are generally at 2.505ish.

How heavy projectile do you think it's worth going in 223?
Seems like you a are shooting pretty much every option 75gr+

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

There are 2 things that bug me about TAC.

1) I believe a weight limit should be put in place. If it's to be a division more geared for the leo/mil intentions you would be hard pressed to find any one running a 25-30lb rifle. Majority of Mil caps out around 18.5-19 lbs suppressed.

2) there are no damn checks for anything, speed or bullet weight. I know for a fact people are using heavier bullets than allowed. I also highly suspect some of the top shooters in open and Tac are running faster than they are allowed based on they're behavior anytime a labradar is brought near them.

The first is addressable and in my opinion should be. The second can be half taken care of by placing a labradar at a random stage but you'll never fully fix the second unfortunately.

 

[JBoomhauer]

I have seen a Labradar tucked in behind the PRS skills stage for that purpose.

 

[Rob01]

Got no problem with rifle weights as my .308 and .223 are both around 18 pounds. And if you need to cheat in this game with heavier bullets or speeds then you have bigger issues than not doing well in a match. Integrity is worth way more than a Tac win.

 

[Twitchy]

How heavy projectile do you think it's worth going in 223?
Seems like you a are shooting pretty much every option 75gr+

I've shot/competed a ton with 223 in PRS and F-Class. If I had to pick, I'd go with 75 ELDs at 3000 for Tac and 80 ELDs at 2900ish for Open. It boils down to the speed and BC (drop/windage) with those rounds versus the heavier projectiles. You can push 90/95SMKs at the bleeding edge to get better than the 75/80 mentioned above, but you'll be killing primer pockets in 1 or 2 firings. If I were sponsored by Lapua brass I'd entertain it. With those 75/80 loads I never ran into a brass life issue. I killed a ton of brass pushing 90 SMKs to 2900+ and 95 SMKs to 2800+ in testing and in matches. All this is assuming 26"+ barrel and throated longer than you'll typically find in a SAMMI chamber to take advantage of the available magazine length.

 

[Solo 43]

What powder you using?

 

[beetroot]

I've shot/competed a ton with 223 in PRS and F-Class. If I had to pick, I'd go with 75 ELDs at 3000 for Tac and 80 ELDs at 2900ish for Open. It boils down to the speed and BC (drop/windage) with those rounds versus the heavier projectiles. You can push 90/95SMKs at the bleeding edge to get better than the 75/80 mentioned above, but you'll be killing primer pockets in 1 or 2 firings. If I were sponsored by Lapua brass I'd entertain it. With those 75/80 loads I never ran into a brass life issue. I killed a ton of brass pushing 90 SMKs to 2900+ and 95 SMKs to 2800+ in testing and in matches. All this is assuming 26"+ barrel and throated longer than you'll typically find in a SAMMI chamber to take advantage of the available magazine length.

That is far better velocity than I ever would've dreamed of.
Way thinking of building a 22br or 22gt, but maybe 223AI throated long will be the go.